Tremulous Forum
Mods => Mod Releases => Non-Gameplay Changing => Topic started by: Azrael07 on September 23, 2008, 06:07:49 am
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We talked, some days ago, with timbo (and other people) and it appairs we didn't give a clear enough tremfusion definition. So we write, for some days ago, a document with all tremfusion team to give an official definition to the project.
I hope it will be usefull for forum admins to decide if we're allowed to talk about tremfusion on this forum, and also for users to know exactly what we plane to do.
The word fork is (or should be) in quotes in this entire text. People don't seem to have the same definition for 'fork',
so it's pretty ambiguous. To address that, we put it in quotes. The following is an explanation of what
TremFusion is compared to Tremulous, so use your own definition of a 'fork' and decide for yourself if
TremFusion is a fork or not. As for my point of view, it is a fork because we don't use the same binaries
and we make our own decisions. Other people seem to think it's not because it's still the same game.
As I said, use your own definition and decide for yourself.
I) Why is it a 'fork' (or whatever you want to call it)
The first reason:
2006. Tremulous goes standalone. Many people discover a new awesome game. Some of them are geeks and
hackers. It's free, and they try to hack the code. Many bugs and missing features are reported. Geeks
start to compile their own qvm while many big tremulous communities are born based around countries,
servers, etc.
2008. No real big news from the development team. Everyone knows they are working on Tremulous 1.2,
there are some screenshots, videos, occasional rumors, but no one knows when it will be released.
Many players are bothered. So much progress, so many patches, so many bugfixes, but no release. Why?
Clan activity is decreasing. Many servers that once were full are now empty.
Geeks try to keep the activity level up with new ideas (mods, minor patches). Older clans try to
organize tournaments. It's cool, but its not enough. Activity still decreases.
We are some of those geeks. We are conscious that it's very hard to make a new version, but we think
the dev team should have a shorter release cycle with intermediate versions, even if it's not as stable
as a major release.
We have knowledge and skill, we are motivated. So, we decide to do our best to re-motivate people and
keep the development and activity up in Tremulous. We create TremFusion.
Now, the question is: why didn't you simply help the current developers to release Tremulous 1.2 instead
of making your own thing?
To answer, we move on to...
The second reason:
Our feeling about Tremulous development is the following: It's very closed. Too closed. Much of the 1.2
stuff isn't publicly released because the developers don't try to involve the community. The official website
doesn't try to organize anything like clan wars, tournaments, etc. The official developers don't really try
to get player feedback and suggestions. We realize this point has changed recently with the addition of
Khalsa's posts about feedback and suggestions in the main forum, but that was quite a bit after we started.
This isn't a critical point. We understand that it's simply a choice made by developers. We understand why
the did it - it's pretty difficult, if not impossible, to develop a game with nothing but community opinion.
Gameplay, objectives, balance and other aspects of gameplay need a consistent front, an ultimate veto, or the
game descends into anarchy. The easiest way to do that is to avoid community feedback and assume the best ideas
will naturally emerge themselves.
Our opinion, however, is pretty different. We know communities are full of trolls, flamers, conflicts and also
some very good ideas. Look at Blizzard's community for Warcraft III - the community made some pretty awesome stuff
(like tower defense maps). Blizzard's games are proprietary, so players can't really contribute to the game itself
outside of maps and ideas. With a free game, they can. What a strength! All community players are able to improve
the game themselves. Look at Battle for Wesnoth - it's a free game, and it's community is amazing.
The DnC project (one of TremFusion's ancestors) was created by community members for community members, and our
feeling is that it's not by joining (or helping under the orders of) developers that allows us to continue to work
hand-in-hand with the community. Maybe we are wrong, maybe we aren't. In any case, we are pretty bad at keeping
secrets. Well, we refuse to keep secrets. That makes us bad candidates for contributing to Tremulous 1.2. We'd be
too tempted to release information that we shouldn't.
Many people will say: "Well, that's stupid, and wrong. You're only trying to have full control of Tremulous
development."
On to the third reason:
It's half true. We don't have exactly the same vision of the game that the developers have. For example, the
developers, near as we can tell, plan for Tremulous to be played on servers with 14-20 slots, maximum.
It's seems that very high slot servers (30+) are pretty popular though. We think, therefore, that it's
really important to try to balance the gameplay so that really high slot servers are more fun and a
bigger success than they are currently. If the community shows they want higher slot servers, why not try
to facilitate that? We also hope to improve the building side of gameplay in Tremulous through things like
zone build points.
That said, we certainly don't want to have full control of Tremulous development. We just want to offer our
own version of the game. From that standpoint, you could think of us as nothing but a mod.
As I say at bottom, we will maybe drop this "mod" side and use MGdev instead.
II) Who are the TremFusion developers? Are there really players using your stuff?
TremFusion is basically a fusion of three smaller projects: STFU-Tremulous, Tremulous-Amanieu and DnC.
There are officially 8 developers on the team: Amanieu, Ender, evilchampion, griffon, PierreF, Madtree,
Kangounator and Azrael07. Evilchampion, Amanieu and Azrael07 are very active, but there are other members
who are less active and some that are inactive.
Now, TremFusion has many contributors and supporters, coming mainly from the French community and obliter8.com
(the old Dretch*Storm). This isn't, however, the only source of contributors. While the above mentioned
developers have write access to our mercurial repository, we frequently integrate patches and ideas from anyone,
so long as they are useful.
III) Why did it take so long to get a real explanation?
Ender created a post in the Tremulous forums about 9 months ago about his idea to fork Tremulous. It was kinda
stupid, and he got burned. Since TremFusion was created, some important people in the Tremulous.net community have
seemed very hostile. So, our idea was to simply talk about our releases only with people who were interested in our
stuff to avoid a flame war. Since our intent from the beginning was to add to the Tremulous community, we figured
the occasional post on Tremulous.net would inform people about what was going on so they could follow the project
if they were interested. We didn't see it as much different from a new HUD, or a new .qvm, just a bit larger. We
chose a new name to differentiate ourselves. We figured we'd release a new client, since everyone was told to get
a new client anyways (TJW's, now MG's). To facilitate that, we'd eventually create new installers for it so that
it'd be accesible to people with less technical knowledge. It made sense, then, to have a name for a project
that large.
Now, about the word 'fork' again. We come from the perspective of the free software community. A fork isn't
necessarily seen as a bad thing. Our philosophy is generally this: our code is fully open. You are free to
take it for things you want, and we don't mind at all.
We didn't, and don't, have bad intentions towards the Tremulous dev team. We thought any public explanation
on the Tremulous.net forums would be a prelude to begin useless flame wars. It seems that was an error, as
many people don't seem to have the same vision of a fork and consider what we've done as disrespectful to the
original Tremulous developers. When someone reuses source code in the free software community, generally it is
considered an honor. We assumed anyone would react that way, but that was wrong. So, we apologize to the
developers of Tremulous if we have seemed disrespectful.
IV) "You lie! <someone> said <add whatever you want here>"
When TremFusion was created, we didn't really know what we wanted to do - a full fork (incompatible with
Tremulous), a half fork (our own binaries, but still compatible), a simple mod (.qvms)... We all came from
different projects and we had very different philosophies and opinions. By now, we've pretty much fixed
those and come up with a consistent direction. What anyone said about TremFusion in the past that is contrary
to this document (so long as we didn't miss something) is not true today. We're a group of volunteers working
in our free time - expect things to evolve pretty much constantly.
V) What about objectives and philosophies?
We answered most of this in the upper portions of this document. Our philosophy is that we make what the players
and community really need. We try to solidify more player ideas into a uniform vision of the game. We want to
increase Tremulous's dynamic nature, and involve as many players as we can in the development aspects of the game
(maps, mods, plugins, tutorials, HUDs, etc). We also want to provide tools and facilities to improve the social
aspects of the games (tournaments, rankings, communication, team play, etc).
VI) What stuff do you have planned?
What we are currently working on - our core:
- Up-to-date client and server binaries (what you get from our current posts in tremulous.net)
- Scripting support on the server side (lua and python)
- Rewriting all of the Tremulous common features that are currently in various patches to utilize our
scripting system
- Real and usable bots
- Improved menus and HUDs
- A real website with a downloads page and our own forum (see http://www.tremfusion.net/trac/wiki/NewWebsite)
- New balanced gameplay. We're not sure on this one as MG has already done a lot of good stuff here, and though
we don't agree with all of it, most of it is what we hoped to do
Projects that we currently talk about, but we're not totally committed to:
- improved graphical side (XReal renderer)
- real release of binaries and data (Linux distro packages)
- find a way to replace (or get a free license for) any non-free textures in some maps.
- scripts on the client side (how can we get client side scripting but avoid cheating?)
- solo/cooperative games. With the help of many contributors, it's possible and could be a lot of fun
Other projects in orbit around TF, but made by external contributors that interact with TF members
- improved sounds and music
- in-game tutorial
VII) "And what happens if you succeed? You won't hesitate to break compatability to kill Tremulous!"
As you can see, one of our main objectives is to increase contributions. Making a blow beneath the belt on
Tremulous like that won't increase the amount of contributions to Tremulous - it'll split the community and
kill both projects, and that's something we want to avoid.
In any case, TremFusion doesn't have the same main objective as Tremulous. Tremulous releases a very full,
balanced and stable game with a long development cycle. TremFusion has a much shorter development cycle with
many minor releases and a lot less stability. We mostly work on new projects that Tremulous developers are
welcome to use or throw away. If they like our bots, scripts, XReal portage, whatever, they can use it. If not,
they go on their merry way. Both projects can survive together and help each other.
Also, if Tremulous development ceases altogether, and we get to a point way down the road where we want to
add features that require us to break compatibility via a protocol change and Tremulous is TOTALLY DEAD, then
yes, we would break compatibility. That is the only situation in which we would do so. That's the plan now
anyways.
VIII) "You think you're the same as the official developers. You're pretty arrogant."
What's the difference between the Tremulous devs and the TremFusion devs? The Tremulous devs worked on
Tremulous for 8 years. We haven't. We look like ants. We certainly can't imagine how long and hard the
devs worked to make all of this awesome stuff that we enjoy. Now, they are human, and so are we. So, we
try to treat the Tremulous devs as humans and we expect the same. We could bow down before them and say
"Pleeeeeeease, tell us your mighty will!". We don't think that'd be very fruitful and we don't believe
anyone should treat anyone else that way. We believe in acting, so we act. The Tremulous devs did the
same thing 8 years ago - they believed in something, they thought they could do it, and they pulled off
something awesome. Fundamentally, we're the same.
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umm... i don'T know if i understand it right, but is tremfusion something like the MG was before getting involved closely to developement... isn'T it?
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They want to steal tremulous players base. That is why they are trying to keep compability(not to benefit tremulous).
Summary of what is going on. They should stop lying
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edit: removed quotes of spam and responses to them -kevlarman
My definition of a fork seems to be coming down to changing the name. I was originally going to say breaking compatibility or ceasing to follow the upstream, but in both those cases the name and branding changes. Therefore I guess tremulous would be a fork of ioq3 despite the flow of code between them. Reading your stuff here you fail to mention what branding your stuff will use, will you rip out every trace of tremulous or what? I guess that's kind of a hard question, as if you make any significant mods then it would be wrong to masquerade as tremulous, esp if people can get your stuff without any interaction with the main tremulous community. Maybe that interaction with the main community thing is a good fork indicator, all current mods require you to download 1.1 first, and then replace a few files. I guess this a something MG is going to have to think about too once the installer that was supposed to ship with our client gets made. I guess fork is one of those "I know it when I see it" things. (and/or when someone else says it first...)
There are two problems with you wanting more releases. Firstly there is a 100mb+ download each time, a way to patch zip files could probably be found, but its still a bitch (or I guess pk3 spam...). And secondly, you then have lots of people playing lots of versions. Look at OA (not the best example I know), they have 3 or 4 versions being played, which fractures the community a lot. Also wrapping up a version for release takes a lot of work, and you have to either stop development or do some SCM branching screweyness. And then people expect support...
If the devs didn't want feedback, then the feedback forum wouldn't exist. Norf has listened a crap-ton in regard to mgdev. The simple fact is 99% of ideas aren't thought out and have big flaws. Or dupes.
And why *should* the devs run tournaments? There job is to make the game. There have been official mapping comps, and if someone was to ever manage to run a working tournament, the devs may even be inclined to help out. Personally I doubt anyone will ever be able to run a tournament with more than a few teams that doesn't turn into a total clusterfuck (I also don't see the point in competitive playing, so maybe I'm biased here...).
They did make a clans section on the forums, and clans.tremulous.net while not run by the devs gets official dev support.
AFAIK, there is nothing being keep 'secret' for 1.2, they just refuse to release half-done crap, they know people will take it, use it, and complain its half done. Look at the insane amounts of shit caused by OA grabbing unstable code from ioq3 and then discovering it was half-done and unstable? We're about to get similar shit due to us all using the non-stable VOIP stuff, which may be getting its protocol changed in non-compatible ways soon. How fun that will be having to run different clients on different servers to make it work. (AFAIK, it has no protocol number of its own). Release early is only good if your user base is smart or don't need to interact with each other.
Balancing for 14-20 players has been a total bitch. Good luck having it balanced all the way to 30. If you can make it work then more power to you, but I honestly don't believe its possible without changing things so much its no longer tremulous (AKA make the teams a lot more similar).
To quote: "TremFusion has ... and a lot less stability.". listing instability as an objective is great.
I think peoples objection isn't because you "fork", but the perceived idea that you wanted to make a new game, fully split from tremulous, and use tremulous and its resources to get a leg-up at tremulous' expense. If that's not the case then I have no problem.
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AFAIK, there is nothing being keep 'secret' for 1.2, they just refuse to release half-done crap, they know people will take it, use it, and complain its half done. Look at the insane amounts of shit caused by OA grabbing unstable code from ioq3 and then discovering it was half-done and unstable? We're about to get similar shit due to us all using the non-stable VOIP stuff, which may be getting its protocol changed in non-compatible ways soon. How fun that will be having to run different clients on different servers to make it work. (AFAIK, it has no protocol number of its own). Release early is only good if your user base is smart or don't need to interact with each other.
FYI VOIP stuff does have a protocol number so it can identify if the client and server is compatible much like qvms etc do
also TY for a serious post and not FUD
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I was in the channel when he said to do it.
So how he could know that even after reading whole post? :P Well he should read before posting anyway
I have read whole thread. No questions :)
I've also read an article about new website. Your link to board software you are planning to use is broken.
Anyway, if my opinion matters, i want to suggest which bb softwares you should use:
AEF - http://www.anelectron.com/ - i like this one 'cause of it's features (WYSIWYG editor :3 ), but it might be unstable, i wasn't looking iside the code.
SMF - http://www.simplemachines.org/ - Board like this one, but there's 2.0's beta with new features (wysiwyg :3). But you will have to change a theme because some ppl like fingered banana will whine "you even took tremulous.net forum" :P
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They want to steal tremulous players base. That is why they are trying to keep compability(not to benefit tremulous).
Summary of what is going on. They should stop lying
Prove it.
Can you? I think not. So just shut the hell up and spare us your constant, anti-TremFusion whining. You can hate the project if you want, but there's no reason to announce it to the entire goddamn Internet. Troll.
[EDIT] @TremFusion people: Nice philosophy. It certainly does a good job of debunking all those malformed rumors that are going around.
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malformed rumors
Syntax error: Unexpected token '}' on line 1 near "the moon landings were a hoax }"
...um, thread. Honestly I think on both sides, about TremFusion, Darklegion, and MG, people would do well to remember that actually phrases like "development team" are just self-important labels we like to apply to ourselves, and in reality we're all just people with common interests :)
I try to maintain perspective in issues like these: ultimately I don't know what is going to happen to TremFusion or the official effort or anything else, but if it makes people happy then it makes me happy, and if people are angry or self-righteous, smug, selfish or arrogant then they really need to remember why we play games and why we develop open source.
That's my fluffy-cloud-happy-bunny point of view. Personally I don't care what people's motives are if the result is good.
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http://www.tremfusion.net/trac/wiki/OnGettingPlayers
Their dirty plan to steal tremulous players
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http://www.tremfusion.net/trac/wiki/OnGettingPlayers
Their dirty plan to steal tremulous players
you are definitely not aware of the fact that there are dudes out there who are having the potential to CREATE something.
end of story...:-)
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I just spent 15 minutes cleaning all the crap out of this thread, any further flames/spam/etc. will be dealt with harshly
edit: and to everyone else, when you see blatant spam hit the report button instead of responding to it.
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<snip>
And now if we make penises shiny in-game such as new graphics for every weapon. Or we make a new alien,
<snip>
FYI, seems somebody's having fun with your wiki. Heh.
e: Linked to old page.
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Very nice speech, thats what I have to say. :D
Before it was difficult describing TremFusion, but now thanks to this topic I guess I have to say its a better and faster Tremulous client. It kicks more ass, its the best thing next to Version 1.2, and people enjoy it. Period.
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AEF looks pretty neat, but its still early, and i wouldnt trust it.
Try MyBB: http://mybbboard.com
Its really flexible, easy to administer, has a lot of the features many other boards add via plugins/extensions, and is very easy to skin. Probably the free board most like IPB or vBulletin. Only problem is it has a tiny-ass community.
And fingered, congrats on joining the restricted group.
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My definition of a fork seems to be coming down to changing the name. I was originally going to say breaking compatibility or ceasing to follow the upstream, but in both those cases the name and branding changes. Therefore I guess tremulous would be a fork of ioq3 despite the flow of code between them. Reading your stuff here you fail to mention what branding your stuff will use, will you rip out every trace of tremulous or what? I guess that's kind of a hard question, as if you make any significant mods then it would be wrong to masquerade as tremulous, esp if people can get your stuff without any interaction with the main tremulous community. Maybe that interaction with the main community thing is a good fork indicator, all current mods require you to download 1.1 first, and then replace a few files. I guess this a something MG is going to have to think about too once the installer that was supposed to ship with our client gets made. I guess fork is one of those "I know it when I see it" things. (and/or when someone else says it first...)
As we said, we plane to release files (including data)
The purpose isn't to move away players from tremulous.net, but simply to provide data we changed a avoid a pretty heavy process (download tremulous, install it, then download tremfusion, then install it ...)
In any cases, many players hadn't to go on tremulous.net to install tremulous (linux packages, binary mirror like clubic, ...)
In other side, a tremfusion website / forum will simply be a new forum (there is many tremulous users pretty inactive on this forum but active elsewhere (I think about italians, frenchs, spains, and probably others)
I will not said to users "go away from tremulous.net, it sux, go on tremfusion forums instead" neighter said us "avoid our forum, tremulous.net is better"
We need a forum, for technical question and help about tremfusion, to bring up a contributors community.
There are two problems with you wanting more releases. Firstly there is a 100mb+ download each time, a way to patch zip files could probably be found, but its still a bitch (or I guess pk3 spam...). And secondly, you then have lots of people playing lots of versions. Look at OA (not the best example I know), they have 3 or 4 versions being played, which fractures the community a lot. Also wrapping up a version for release takes a lot of work, and you have to either stop development or do some SCM branching screweyness. And then people expect support...
Have also to do a difference with "minor release" and "major release".
Minor releases (all tremfusion releases for the moment) arn't tested very well, it has two purpose:
- get players help to seek and destroy bugs
- provide all minor modifications for players who don't want to wait for a major release.
About all many differents client... While all clients are compatible togather, I don't think it fracture the community. Sure, it's a little harder for support, we first need to identify the client version before helping. Else... I don't really see the problem.
If the devs didn't want feedback, then the feedback forum wouldn't exist. Norf has listened a crap-ton in regard to mgdev. The simple fact is 99% of ideas aren't thought out and have big flaws. Or dupes.
And why *should* the devs run tournaments? There job is to make the game. There have been official mapping comps, and if someone was to ever manage to run a working tournament, the devs may even be inclined to help out. Personally I doubt anyone will ever be able to run a tournament with more than a few teams that doesn't turn into a total clusterfuck (I also don't see the point in competitive playing, so maybe I'm biased here...).
They did make a clans section on the forums, and clans.tremulous.net while not run by the devs gets official dev support.
As I said, it was not a critic. About tournaments, it was only an idea. It's a pretty difficult to organise (for many reason, you gave some of them), and having an official support, or if it's come from an official idea will probably solve many critical points (ex: about rules. All players will never agree with rules if a guest organize a tournament... - unlagged stuff, allowed maps, TL/SD ?)
AFAIK, there is nothing being keep 'secret' for 1.2, they just refuse to release half-done crap, they know people will take it, use it, and complain its half done. Look at the insane amounts of shit caused by OA grabbing unstable code from ioq3 and then discovering it was half-done and unstable? We're about to get similar shit due to us all using the non-stable VOIP stuff, which may be getting its protocol changed in non-compatible ways soon. How fun that will be having to run different clients on different servers to make it work. (AFAIK, it has no protocol number of its own). Release early is only good if your user base is smart or don't need to interact with each other.
I don't really know the story with OA, only main lines. I have only one thing to say : if OA developpers want to get unstable version and it's don't work, it's OA developpers problem. Show a public svn isn't release anything.
Very most part of free software have a public developpement of all stuff they do, and I don't know many problems like OA's grabbing.
To quote: "TremFusion has ... and a lot less stability.". listing instability as an objective is great.
It's not an objective, it's a consequence. Well, never release anything but fix bugs, you will be sure to have a very stable stuff... but no users ;)
Players need news. In 2 years, most of them know the game by heart. No real news, they go away.
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Thanks for the tips on BB software. I'm looking for something python-centric, if possible. We're trying to keep our number of supported programming languages low. :)
Also, thanks for those of you who read through that whole wall of text. We appreciate people giving us the benefit of the doubt like that.
-Ender
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Bla bla bla, Mr. Freeman.
Good post, good luck, ingore the random twat and don't break compat.
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Clan activity is decreasing. Many servers that once were full are now empty.
And how is Tremfusion going to help this? Clans: Zubs, NT, AA, OPP, SW, W. Which of these are promoting Tremfusion? As a long-time player in the clan politics game, I don't believe that clan activity is going to be solved by Tremfusion.
Look at Blizzard's community for Warcraft III - the community made some pretty awesome stuff
(like tower defense maps). Blizzard's games are proprietary, so players can't really contribute to the game itself
outside of maps and ideas. With a free game, they can. What a strength! All community players are able to improve
the game themselves. Look at Battle for Wesnoth - it's a free game, and it's community is amazing.
Pet peeve: Comparing tremulous to other games to highlight its faults. That's dumb as shit, because if we wanted Tremulous to be like other games, we would go play them instead.
It's half true. We don't have exactly the same vision of the game that the developers have. For example, the
developers, near as we can tell, plan for Tremulous to be played on servers with 14-20 slots, maximum.
It's seems that very high slot servers (30+) are pretty popular though.
Is your basis for this the fact that servers that allow more players maintain more players? Think about that.
I'm going to go ahead and say it: Noone good plays on DS. The games on DT that are tolerable have less than 20 players.
Are there really players using your stuff?
You really didn't mention much of a playerbase. You listed your developers, but how many players are using your stuff?
I for one downloaded it, and immediately uninstalled due to crappy support for windows: I had to reload a map 4 times before I could play on ideal settings.
VII) "And what happens if you succeed? You won't hesitate to break compatability to kill Tremulous!"
As you can see, one of our main objectives is to increase contributions. Making a blow beneath the belt on
Tremulous like that won't increase the amount of contributions to Tremulous - it'll split the community and
kill both projects, and that's something we want to avoid.
You could fork right now, Tremulous wouldn't care. You're not going to kill trem, or even put a dent in it if you do. That's not why everyone gets upset about Tremfusion posts: it's because if you are forking, you are really advertising a different game, and we don't want to hear about it here.
I like the idea of tremfusion, and I like the people behind it (amanieu, griffon, and elder I know), and hey, I love to see the community saying "If the devs won't, we will." What I don't like are these big dramatic posts about it: they suck. They're poorly written, and they do little more than fire people up. You're not going to get sympathizers by talking and making speeches. If you want people interested in Tremfusion, you need to start releasing awesome stuff. Awesome stuff draws people in, not crappy threads.
Also, I'm in a terrible mood today, my apologies for offense taken, if any.
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And how is Tremfusion going to help this? Clans: Zubs, NT, AA, OPP, SW, W. Which of these are promoting Tremfusion? As a long-time player in the clan politics game, I don't believe that clan activity is going to be solved by Tremfusion.
And which of these are euro or of another continent ? Hu.
I'm part of the kiwi clan, and we support TremFusion (We test the new versions, look if there are some bugs, etc). And some others french clans too (Welcomed, or perharps wwF* ?).
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And how is Tremfusion going to help this? Clans: Zubs, NT, AA, OPP, SW, W. Which of these are promoting Tremfusion? As a long-time player in the clan politics game, I don't believe that clan activity is going to be solved by Tremfusion.
And which of these are euro or of another continent ? Hu.
I'm part of the kiwi clan, and we support TremFusion (We test the new versions, look if there are some bugs, etc). And some others french clans too (Welcomed, or perharps wwF* ?).
smooth repost :-)
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@Paradox: Real link: http://www.mybboard.net/. Yours leads to a domain squatter.
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And how is Tremfusion going to help this? Clans: Zubs, NT, AA, OPP, SW, W. Which of these are promoting Tremfusion? As a long-time player in the clan politics game, I don't believe that clan activity is going to be solved by Tremfusion.
And which of these are euro or of another continent ? Hu.
I'm part of the kiwi clan, and we support TremFusion (We test the new versions, look if there are some bugs, etc). And some others french clans too (Welcomed, or perharps wwF* ?).
Why do clans need to be on another continent?
There have been no posts about Kiwi here since July. Welcomed has not been mentioned since 2007, and I cannot find any posts here about wwF*. "Some french clans", if they have different forums, are part of that community, not this one.
I don't see any of those clan tags in people's sigs often enough for me to recognize them.
Are any of these clans' activity going to rely on tremfusion?
You suck.
I am done.
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This is just the US Tremulous Forums, there is tremulous.fr as far as I know. Perhaps it has a larger impact over there?
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My only problem is this.
As i see it, this is a mod (i know its a client bear with me) an extra to further the tremulous experience. And thats great, but by the way you are going about it, it will no longer be a mod, but in reality, more close to Tremulous 1.2. and what i dread, is if this is successful, you will in affect, no matter how you put it, taking (stealing is probably too harsh a word) the tremulous player base, and thus, taking tremulous from its developers.
the TJW client and the MG client are both just made to make tremulous more accessible, and easier to use. Yours will update and upgrade tremulous itself and like i said before, it will be more akin to 1.2 than anything else.
I hope im wrong, but i doubt i am.
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Why do clans need to be on another continent?
There have been no posts about Kiwi here since July. Welcomed has not been mentioned since 2007, and I cannot find any posts here about wwF*. "Some french clans", if they have different forums, are part of that community, not this one.
I don't see any of those clan tags in people's sigs often enough for me to recognize them.
Are any of these clans' activity going to rely on tremfusion?
You suck.
I am done.
the european continent is a quite huge part of the community of trem players (=not necessarely the ones who are forum residents). and you should know that not all of us are from US who are writing here... there are also ones out here who are considered as kind of "legends" (clans and individuals, both).
of course, they will not visit your ping division so often, since they prefer playing without unlagged.
what you will not beleive that even some of the devs are sometimes not from US, maybe even in the tremfusion team.
you suck, but you are not done yet so there is some hope ;-)
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yet another forum software post:
don't forget to check the software licenses.
phpbb http://www.phpbb.com/
*phpbb is GPL, most other "free" boards have anti forking/freedom terms and can at a later time become non-free, plus you'll be making end users more comfortable with software that has a more favorable philosophy.
*v3 is a big improvement over v2 (of the software, not the license), when some people talk about phpbb they're still thinking about v2
*there is a lot of fud about its security, i think its mostly due to a few news articles, since then its had a good track record and has made some significant improvements, they take security seriously.
*they have a good vision for the future, (hooking for plugins)
*if your whining about editing forum-permissions(not all types) in the Admin control panel, get someone else to do it, its not for the lazy types who give up early and have the horse blinders on.
(pro lazy + pro update)in my unpopular opinion i'd advise against modding your forums unless its easy, useful, and remains easy to upgrade, and yeah i'm sure other software makes it easier.
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As i said, MyBB is surprisingly customizable. For example, you can make it so guests can view forums, but not topics within.
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My only problem is this.
As i see it, this is a mod (i know its a client bear with me) an extra to further the tremulous experience. And thats great, but by the way you are going about it, it will no longer be a mod, but in reality, more close to Tremulous 1.2. and what i dread, is if this is successful, you will in affect, no matter how you put it, taking (stealing is probably too harsh a word) the tremulous player base, and thus, taking tremulous from its developers.
the TJW client and the MG client are both just made to make tremulous more accessible, and easier to use. Yours will update and upgrade tremulous itself and like i said before, it will be more akin to 1.2 than anything else.
So a mod has to suck for it to be acceptable? And we're not stealing anything, since we're compatible with trem.
This is just the US Tremulous Forums, there is tremulous.fr as far as I know. Perhaps it has a larger impact over there?
Yes, we have a much larger impact there, because some of our devs are very respected members of that community. (kinda like MG in here)
And how is Tremfusion going to help this? Clans: Zubs, NT, AA, OPP, SW, W. Which of these are promoting Tremfusion? As a long-time player in the clan politics game, I don't believe that clan activity is going to be solved by Tremfusion.
Actually OPP supports Tremfusion :)
Pet peeve: Comparing tremulous to other games to highlight its faults. That's dumb as shit, because if we wanted Tremulous to be like other games, we would go play them instead.
He wasn't comparing Tremulous to another game, he was comparing the Tremulous community to another game's community.
Is your basis for this the fact that servers that allow more players maintain more players? Think about that.
I'm going to go ahead and say it: Noone good plays on DS. The games on DT that are tolerable have less than 20 players.
People want large servers. There is no reason for us to not let them have that.
You really didn't mention much of a playerbase. You listed your developers, but how many players are using your stuff?
I for one downloaded it, and immediately uninstalled due to crappy support for windows: I had to reload a map 4 times before I could play on ideal settings.
Don't tell me you didn't have to do the same thing when you first downloaded trem.
You could fork right now, Tremulous wouldn't care. You're not going to kill trem, or even put a dent in it if you do. That's not why everyone gets upset about Tremfusion posts: it's because if you are forking, you are really advertising a different game, and we don't want to hear about it here.
It is up to Timbo to decide whether Tremfusion is a different game or not.
If you want people interested in Tremfusion, you need to start releasing awesome stuff. Awesome stuff draws people in, not crappy threads.
Tremfusion is not done yet. Awesome stuff is comming SOON.
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Tremfusion is not done yet. Awesome stuff is comming SOON.
It is no longer Tremulous!!! I demand we sue for copyright violation. ::)
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But they have a written license to modify the code and turn it into another product from the copyright holder. It's in the file 'GPL' right at the top of the source tree. If 'tremulous' is a trademark or registered name you might be able to claim that 'tremfusion' is too similar to 'tremulous', but then they'd just rename their project to 'con-fusion' and carry on.
My opinion on this whole discussion: As long as they keep compatibility with the original game (including things like honoring sv_pure) I can't really see this as a bad thing. This is opensource, when tremfusion comes up with great new features that every player wants to have, then the tremulous devs/MG can just include them into their client. If all their new features suck, they will be ignored anyway.
There is no way tremfusion can actively take away players from original tremulous, only the tremulous developers could do that by neglecting the wishes of their players.
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And how is Tremfusion going to help this? Clans: Zubs, NT, AA, OPP, SW, W. Which of these are promoting Tremfusion? As a long-time player in the clan politics game, I don't believe that clan activity is going to be solved by Tremfusion.
And which of these are euro or of another continent ? Hu.
I'm part of the kiwi clan, and we support TremFusion (We test the new versions, look if there are some bugs, etc). And some others french clans too (Welcomed, or perharps wwF* ?).
Why do clans need to be on another continent?
There have been no posts about Kiwi here since July. Welcomed has not been mentioned since 2007, and I cannot find any posts here about wwF*. "Some french clans", if they have different forums, are part of that community, not this one.
I don't see any of those clan tags in people's sigs often enough for me to recognize them.
Are any of these clans' activity going to rely on tremfusion?
You suck.
I am done.
For a clan to exist, it must spend it's time spamming the Clan Section of these forums?
The fact that you, as an American, never come across these European clans means they do not exist?
If the French, or who the fuck else for that matter, uses a different forum that this one for their communication, does that mean they are not part of this community, the Tremulous community?
Who the fuck are you to make such statements, newcomer?
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This is just the US Tremulous Forums, there is tremulous.fr as far as I know. Perhaps it has a larger impact over there?
No, this is the official forums, it covers the whole world. All others are fan sites.
But they have a written license to modify the code and turn it into another product from the copyright holder. It's in the file 'GPL' right at the top of the source tree. If 'tremulous' is a trademark or registered name you might be able to claim that 'tremfusion' is too similar to 'tremulous', but then they'd just rename their project to 'con-fusion' and carry on.
The code is GPL, the assets aren't. Could also deny them access to the master. Lots and lots and lots that could be done to screw with them.
of course, they will not visit your ping division so often, since they prefer playing without unlagged.
Will people stop with the all Europeans hate unlagged bullshit? I'm European, I like unlagged. I can play better and fairer on US servers than ones down the road. 99% of tremulous players don't even know what unlagged is or where the servers they play on are, so the big sweeping generalisations just make you look stupid.
What you mean to say is the majority of European server operators prefer lagged.
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well yes, i should've said "they prefer playing without lags".
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The code is GPL, the assets aren't. Could also deny them access to the master. Lots and lots and lots that could be done to screw with them.
Right, the media are not GPL, they are CC 2.5 licensed, but that still allows tremfusion to take the stuff and adapt it as they want, provided that they attribute the original author(s).
You can also lock them out of the master, that would be a very effective way to stop tremfusion from splitting the community: split it yourself first.
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Splitting it first would be a great defence, they won't get users without servers, and they won't get server without users.
Thus the argument that they are only maintaining compatibility until they get said critical mass to be able to run there own stuff without it dying.
And can a mod remove all the shit about forum software? Its not on-topic for this thread, or this forum. I somehow doubt the TF people need any help in deciding such things.
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Well, they'll have some servers. I'd bet that Azrael07 will migrate at least his own servers once a stable tremfusion server is available. And then they'd only have to set up their own master server (wait, didn't they do this already ?) and invest an hour to make their client ping two masters and the tremfusion users will have access to all servers while the svn/MG user will only see the original tremulous servers.
I know which client I'd use in that situation.
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Splitting it first would be a great defence, they won't get users without servers, and they won't get server without users.
Thank for you letting us peek inside your way of thinking, a way which obviously does not have Tremulous and it's community set as a high priority.
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And how is Tremfusion going to help this? Clans: Zubs, NT, AA, OPP, SW, W. Which of these are promoting Tremfusion? As a long-time player in the clan politics game, I don't believe that clan activity is going to be solved by Tremfusion.
And which of these are euro or of another continent ? Hu.
I'm part of the kiwi clan, and we support TremFusion (We test the new versions, look if there are some bugs, etc). And some others french clans too (Welcomed, or perharps wwF* ?).
Why do clans need to be on another continent?
There have been no posts about Kiwi here since July. Welcomed has not been mentioned since 2007, and I cannot find any posts here about wwF*. "Some french clans", if they have different forums, are part of that community, not this one.
I don't see any of those clan tags in people's sigs often enough for me to recognize them.
Are any of these clans' activity going to rely on tremfusion?
You suck.
I am done.
For a clan to exist, it must spend it's time spamming the Clan Section of these forums?
The fact that you, as an American, never come across these European clans means they do not exist?
If the French, or who the fuck else for that matter, uses a different forum that this one for their communication, does that mean they are not part of this community, the Tremulous community?
Who the fuck are you to make such statements, newcomer?
Newcomer am I? I have been registered here nearly twice as long as the person who I replied to.
For a clan to exist they must post here? My no, but if there's a dedicated place to post their clan's happenings, and they choose not to use it, it seems to me they don't want to be included in the community. And if they are located only in places other than this forum, then they are not included in the target audience of his post, so I am right to omit them from my posts when I try to represent the clan community he has mentioned.
Yes it does mean they are not part of this community.
Who the fuck am I? Well I am one with as much qualification as any to make an opinion about the clan scene. There isn't a North American clan active that would not appreciate my company, and I have led the AoD clan for a long time, which frequently appeared in the opinion topic about the top 5 clans. I have been in NT, Zubs, and AA. I am now tagged together with ex-members of the OPP clan, meren and amine. I have close friends in all major clans in North America. J-cool, founder of AA, and Dracone, founder of NT, both keep in contact with me. Those heavily involved in SW also close friends of mine. I know their opinions involving tremulous mods. Even leaders of European clans and Australian clans have been friends of mine in the past, and we have discussed many issues ranging from unlagged to tremx.
Who are you to even imply that I might not know what I'm talking about? I haven't seen your name come up in a positive tone ever in-game. I don't see clans desperately imploring Lava Croft to side with them. I think in reality, it is you who is the nobody in the clan scene, and I am fully qualified to make the statements I did.
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Splitting it first would be a great defence, they won't get users without servers, and they won't get server without users.
Thank for you letting us peek inside your way of thinking, a way which obviously does not have Tremulous and it's community set as a high priority.
I never suggested to do it, I was merely pointing out that it is not an inherently bad option as some suggest. Lesser of two evils etc etc.
If TF turns out to be evil, then losing a small amount of the community to get rid of them may be worth it. You wouldn't refuse to remove a cancerous tumour just because some good cells are going to be cut out too.
(Note for the retards who can't read, I'm not saying TF is a cancer, I'm not saying its bad. The If implies the whole situation is hypothetical.)
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Who the fuck am I? Well I am one with as much qualification as any to make an opinion about the clan scene. There isn't a North American clan active that would not appreciate my company, and I have led the AoD clan for a long time, which frequently appeared in the opinion topic about the top 5 clans. I have been in NT, Zubs, and AA. I am now tagged together with ex-members of the OPP clan, meren and amine. I have close friends in all major clans in North America. J-cool, founder of AA, and Dracone, founder of NT, both keep in contact with me. Those heavily involved in SW also close friends of mine. I know their opinions involving tremulous mods. Even leaders of European clans and Australian clans have been friends of mine in the past, and we have discussed many issues ranging from unlagged to tremx.
Who are you to even imply that I might not know what I'm talking about? I haven't seen your name come up in a positive tone ever in-game. I don't see clans desperately imploring Lava Croft to side with them. I think in reality, it is you who is the nobody in the clan scene, and I am fully qualified to make the statements I did.
You're famous ? I don't know you... I'm famous too, do you know me ?
That's what everyone said : you're maybe very famous in US, but unknown in europe.
Spain, italian, french community (and probably other I don't know) have their own forums with their own activity. Most part of their users don't know you, and know what it's happend on this board only as rumors. Spain + italian + french forum community forums = 110 000 messages. This forum = 130 000 messages. And I count only 4 forums. There is many other servers and clans forums with their own community.
Yes, sure, tremulous.net/forum is the only one tremulous community :p
All unknown people here are noobs. Clans without signature here simply don't exist.
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I don't give a fuck about other language boards. If you were posting there, my reputation there would be a factor, but you're not. You're posting here.
Edit: You're also saying things that I didn't. I never said I was famous, I said I was heavily involved with the "clan scene." When did I call anyone a noob? Now. You're a noob. I never said Tremulous.net is the only community, but it is the one you're posting on, therefore being the community relevant to this discussion.
And I don't find myself unknown when I leave my country's borders.
You want to talk famous... Yahoo is famous, Lakitu7 is famous, BloodyDemon(yes) is famous. Their name is known regardless of where you play. You sir, are not famous.
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You're famous ? I don't know you... I'm famous too, do you know me ?
Uh... Ozzy is a well known player.. at least from what I know.. Iam an x-player of trem called Capt.Jordan I was not very famous.. but I used to play a lot.. I started trem about 2 years ago or 3.. and I have seen him around a lot. He was the leader of AOD.. one of the best clans ever, I remember people used to beg to get in. He is an extremely talented player as well and very experienced in trem.. : ) So.. I would like to point at that when quoting that statement you fail.. because I am a witness of his fame at least in the U.S :P.
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Splitting it first would be a great defence, they won't get users without servers, and they won't get server without users.
From some of the posts in this thread I get the impression that you don't even have to change the master server to split the 'community'.
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Yahoo is famous
Haha indeed he is famous... From killwhoring, tking when someone is not following (sometimes very stupid)orders and talking shit about his "mindless team".
Exactly same is Kattana, but Yahoo doesnt have binded "Unlagged bullshit ffs abusers". +1 for him!
Actually half of Zubs are just bitching killwhores. You know why they don't play @ Dretch*Storm?
Because
they failed as they were stricken down to the ground
PS. If You think someone without "AA", ".Zubs" or "OPP" in his name is just another retard, you fail.
PS2. If You think someone without 100 kills in 5 minutes is just another retard, you fail.
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Timbo, Jex, Overflow, Veda, Dasprid, Who, Veda, khalsa.
they are the forum administrators. each one of them spent less time on this forum than me and they also have less posts. so, according to Ozzy, i am more competent and important than all of them. not to mention that maybe some of them doesn't even has a clan :-D
please bow.
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Yahoo is famous
Haha indeed he is famous... From killwhoring, tking when someone is not following (sometimes very stupid)orders and talking shit about his "mindless team".
Exactly same is Kattana, but Yahoo doesnt have binded "Unlagged bullshit ffs abusers". +1 for him!
Actually half of Zubs are just bitching killwhores. You know why they don't play @ Dretch*Storm?
Because
they failed as they were stricken down to the ground
PS. If You think someone without "AA", ".Zubs" or "OPP" in his name is just another retard, you fail.
PS2. If You think someone without 100 kills in 5 minutes is just another retard, you fail.
Zubs failed how exactly? Yahoo is only known with a bad reputation to noobs that nobody cares about, mainly speaking D*S and D*T, Kattana is a different story. We (Zubs) try to avoid D*S because it's filled with a bunch of fucking idiots that try votekicking good players because they think we aimbot, and the D*S players suck in general. Define killwhore for me, please. It seems that the majority of this community misuses the word all the time and tosses it around as they see players with high scores. Regardless of the time they managed to win the match.
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I don't give a fuck about other language boards. If you were posting there, my reputation there would be a factor, but you're not. You're posting here.
Edit: You're also saying things that I didn't. I never said I was famous, I said I was heavily involved with the "clan scene." When did I call anyone a noob? Now. You're a noob. I never said Tremulous.net is the only community, but it is the one you're posting on, therefore being the community relevant to this discussion.
And I don't find myself unknown when I leave my country's borders.
You want to talk famous... Yahoo is famous, Lakitu7 is famous, BloodyDemon(yes) is famous. Their name is known regardless of where you play. You sir, are not famous.
Anyone who plays Tremulous is part of this community, wether they use these forums or not, wether they are American or not, and so on. You seem to suffer from the classic American disease that does not let you look abroad, and while this could be forgiven, I happen to know tons of Americans that do look abroad, so this argument will not hold.
Most of the people you call famous are only famous in your parts, with the pleasant exeption of Lakitu7, since his work has no trouble to cross country borders. I have been hanging around with Tremulous since 2004, and of all the people you mentioned only, again, Lakitu7 will qualify as 'famous'.
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I fully support tremfusion, because it is time to move on.
This is the natural cycle of software development in the open source community, and mistakes were made in the planning of the next version.
Many people, myself included, have seen the destruction and ruin of Tremulous by devs who need not be named.
I wish tremfusion the best of luck,
- Yarou
PS: It's nothing personal. In fact, I tend to dislike the D*S community even moreso than others.
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Who the fuck are you to make such statements, newcomer?
It's funny how this sparked a 'I'm more famous than you' topic. If I'm right, Lava was pointing out how your 'fame' means as little over in Europe as the european community seems to mean to you. So arguing that so-and-so is more famous than what's-his-face is completely missing the point.
If you're point is valid, it should be able to stand without the backing of your reputation (or lack of it).
Now I'll use my mighty reputation and assert that this TremFusion project is a very worthwhile venture and I fully condone it. If Nux says it's good, it MUST be good.
From some of the posts in this thread I get the impression that you don't even have to change the master server to split the 'community'.
A fair observation. Let's just hope that those who wish for 'splitting' get what they want and are 'split' from us permanently.
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We (Zubs) try to avoid D*S because it's filled with a bunch of fucking idiots that try votekicking good players because they think we aimbot,
It was happening to me on many others servers even when im not that good until i decided to stay @ 1-2 servers. I think same problem have other popular FPS (like Urban Terror or WarRock).
Define killwhore for me, please. It seems that the majority of this community misuses the word all the time and tosses it around as they see players with high scores. Regardless of the time they managed to win the match.
Who is a killwhore for me? A person who has highscore without going to end a match be4 getting xxx kills/isn't going to end a match at all, talking about "ma-epic-skillz-which-will-pwn-you-in-less-than-30-sec", calling his team team retards because they don't have "ma-epic-skillz-which-will-pwn-you-in-less-than-30-sec" . Ok last part is fitting in "bitching" :)
I admit that i shouldn't call half of Zubs bitching killwhores since i know max 3 of You. Well i was talking mainly about Drakoniz (or something like that, sorry for miss spelling) who has joined DS, then started to bitch about his skill ("my rifle > you", "my mara > you"). Finally he got owned by one of DS' regulars, then he said few nice words about polacks (he,regular, is from Poland) and making an epic ragequit.
Anyway i'm not sure talking about Zubs, clan community and who is who and for how long is fitting in this topic... I blame KamikOzzy for this mess!
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Lol?
My post has been removed?
This immaturity is absolutely ridiculous, if you can't handle the heat, don't stay in the kitchen.
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Tremfusion is a start to show the community what Tremulous 1.2 could be (and in my opinion, TremFusion IS the 1.2 everybody has been waiting for), and the community needs it. MG's changes are not all good (although the new cades are pro :barricade: :barricade: :barricade:) , some are very annoying (20 hp dretch! :dretch:) but TremFusion hasn't changed anything that's bugged me one bit. Perhaps others think the same way I do.
I do have to say though, seeing the VoIP patch in place (it wasn't so happy when I tried to get it to work) on TF's client made me very happy. I'm one of those unfortunate few who cannot use TS and Trem due to shitty ALSA drivers. :[
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I seccond what Archangel said, Tremfusion is areally nice and well-made project, it doesnt matters if it is not from the "official devs" of tremulous, since its open software everyone can feel free to modify it and the tremfusion guys made a nice work!
Gj and Gl!
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Actually OPP supports Tremfusion :)
I'll have to inquire further with them. Do you mean OPP as a clan, or certain members. For example, while I myself may support Tremfusion, I would say Zubs as a whole does not.
He wasn't comparing Tremulous to another game, he was comparing the Tremulous community to another game's community.
He said nothing about their community but rather their ability to contribute. While I agree it is a great benefit to be able to contribute to Trem, I don't believe the opportunity to heavily influence future versions should be handed to any nutcase who wants a crack at it. I guess in short, I love the way Tremulous is now, and I refuse to complain about the devs policies just because "it worked for some other game."
People want large servers. There is no reason for us to not let them have that.
I don't think people do. TJW certainly didn't advocate it, and the general impression of large servers around these parts (SST, DS, etc.) is that they are exclusively for the less-than-competent players. If your goal is to cater to the new players, I believe you are making a mistake. Though this will no doubt increase your popularity, it leads to compensations for lack of skill in order to appease the casual gamer. Trem for me has been a nerd's game with a few dedicated and loyal players being more valuable than an onslaught of weekend-gamer types that move on after a month or so.
Don't tell me you didn't have to do the same thing when you first downloaded trem.
This isn't about the initial setup, this is about *every* time I load the client, even after a week of use. Every alt+tab required me to reload at least twice.
It is up to Timbo to decide whether Tremfusion is a different game or not.
As long as you maintain compatibility, I don't see how anyone could assert that. Down the road if you choose to break this link, I don't expect you will consider both branches to be one.
If you want people interested in Tremfusion, you need to start releasing awesome stuff. Awesome stuff draws people in, not crappy threads.
Tremfusion is not done yet. Awesome stuff is coming SOON.
I believe you, and I look forward to it. THEN it will be time for epic threads, and you will have my support.
I made a retort for every one of you dumbasses who quoted me and aren't named Amanieu; please PM me if you would like to see my views, otherwise I am content to only address Amanieu's post.
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TremFusion IS the 1.2 everybody has been waiting for)
Remarks like this lay the foundations for a hostile environment.Splitting it first would be a great defence, they won't get users without servers, and they won't get server without users.
From some of the posts in this thread I get the impression that you don't even have to change the master server to split the 'community'.
That is exactly what seems to be the goal of some people who seem to have some unfound fear that TremFusion might steal their potential thunder. People like this do not have Tremulous as their top priority, but their own social circle.
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http://www.tremfusion.net/trac/wiki/OnGettingPlayers
Now it says your ass?? hmm someone is having fun
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Sure... thanks for report
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A few people have claimed that Tremfusion is 'stealing' Tremulous's player base. I'm just curious as to why, these certain people don't think a person can play more than one game at a time (not literally)? I play JKA and Tremulous, granted I don't run both games on my machine at the same time, but rather switch off between the games. I like Tremulous, and if TremFusion turns out well, I might like it as well. IS there something wrong with playing two games? Do you perceive people like me as abominations, who play many games at once? Am I a freak for playing Halo, JKA, Counter-Strike, and Tremulous?
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TremFusion is really just a modification of Tremulous with some additional features that may or may not come in handy. I don't see what all the fuss is about.