Tremulous Forum
General => Announcements => Topic started by: khalsa on December 10, 2008, 12:43:18 am
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Howdy,
Tremulous is getting a wiki for docs, newbies guides, how to's, manuals, etc. etc.
I am not a "wiki person".
I need someone who is well versed in mediawiki usage and administration, who has a verifiable history as such. (link to your medium-large wiki, or a long wikipedia edit history) To help out and get things running.
I'm also looking for suggestions as to what hierarchy for organization the wiki should follow. If you (all of you lamers) could put up what you think would be a good method of organization (e.g. a hierarchy for the mainpage) I will strongly consider them.
The more responses, and the more volunteers, the faster we launch and the faster things happen :)
Khalsa
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Well for the Wiki something like this should be alright; http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Main_Page
As for the arrangement something along the lines of this maybe; http://tremulous.pastebin.com/m167328b
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Khalsa, I am experienced with Wikis, as can be seen by my personal wiki.
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Is this wiki going to contain lore etc. or just information on Tremulous?
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Yeah, I think the very first step for a wiki is to outline what will and what will not be on it. This gives the would-be maintainer an idea of how to start organizing content and what kind of content it will be. It will also need to answer questions such as:
* Will it need categories?
* Images: Will it need to be able to post images? Will anybody be able to post images or just select users? In which manner will images be posted/stored?
* Likewise with HTML.
* What pages should be locked? In my experience, at the very least the homepage should be, because it is _the_ single wiki page that seems to absolutely fascinate idiots into "defacing" it in various ways.
From the technical point of view, wiki engines are pretty similar nowadays, but there are some differences; in syntax, obviously, and in features they support.
I recommend that a wiki be chosen that offers at least the following features:
* User accounts.
* Selective page locking.
* If possible, allow only some users to edit certain pages.
* Page caching (you don't want every page to be dinamically generated all the time).
* Automatic generation of content indexes for every page; ie. you edit a page, you create headings, and the engine auto-generates a list of links to each section at start of page.
* Some way to organize similar pages hierarchically ie. categories in wiki-speak.
* A sane revision browsing, with user-friendly display of differences between revisions.
* Anti-spambot protection!
* A sane past revision retention policy, which ensures that nobody can erase content, or push it so far back on the revision history by malicious edits that it becomes unavailable.
* IP blocks.
I believe MediaWiki has all of the above.
There is also the issue of policy as to who can edit what. Like I said, I strongly recommend the homepage to be locked from any but select users. And I can imagine that certain pages or sections such as, say, the one for a certain mod may allow editing only from that mod's team.
Then again, by locking people away you lose the greates part of a wiki's potential (homepage doesn't count). Personally, I am put off by wikis that require login. Anonymous editing is the way to go if you want to make sure you don't lose any contribution. But it requires an editor that makes the rounds daily and reverts spam and malicious edits. If the engine makes it super-easy for him, it's a sinch and you get the best of both worlds.
This issue is quite complex. Ever since wikis appeared people debated complete freedom of edit vs locking stuff down. Some favor an extreme where it's completely open and bad stuff is simply reverted and backups used in worst case scenarios (passive resistance), whereas others will ban IP blocks and require logins at the drop of a hat.
It can get quite philosophical. Maybe reading this can help (http://blackboxwm.sourceforge.net/WikiHelp/WikiSpirit).
Bottom line, lay down some ground rules and make some decisions first.
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* Will it need categories?
Yes
* Images: Will it need to be able to post images? Will anybody be able to post images or just select users? In which manner will images be posted/stored?
Yes, I think all registered users. (aka forum users)
* Likewise with HTML.
Nobody
* What pages should be locked? In my experience, at the very least the homepage should be, because it is _the_ single wiki page that seems to absolutely fascinate idiots into "defacing" it in various ways.
Highly debateable, but I'd probably leave it up to whomever steps up to help.
I believe MediaWiki has all of the above.
I've allready pretty much decided on MediaWiki thanks!
There is also the issue of policy as to who can edit what.
Only logged in, registered forum users can edit. Forum admin = sysop, mod = bureaucrat, member=user
Bottom line, lay down some ground rules and make some decisions first.
Agreed!
Thanks for your input!
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Is this wiki going to contain lore etc. or just information on Tremulous?
Just info,support,docs,etc.
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Does that mean only technical stuff related to Tremulous the client and server (installing, running, configuration)? Because there are lots of other Tremulous topics; granted, many have been covered extensively elsewhere, but perhaps that's just because there wasn't a central place.
Examples:
* Strategy. This one is huge. Good map locations for human/alien, pro and con examples of base building with pics, tactics (rushes, blockade, taunting, human/alien groups) etc.
* Gameplay. Weapon usage for humans, ability usage for aliens, tips and tricks, what's good for what etc. Binds, sensitivity etc. would probably also fall under this category.
* Mod database: maps, mods, huds, models, sounds, music etc.
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Its a wiki, so I would say allow anything trem related.
Everything you listed would fit (sorta) into "info,support,docs,etc"
I vote let it grow and redo the front page as new stuff arrives.
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To be honest I don't really care as long as it's easy to use, logical, organized, and not spammy. Lore should be the least focused thing. I think lore is more appropriate on the forums anyways..
Khalsa
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You know this means the forum needs [wiki]...[/wiki], right?
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Is this wiki going to contain lore etc. or just information on Tremulous?
Just info,support,docs,etc.
Awww... I like lore. Where would any game be without lore?
Look at WoW (looks like im pulling another WoW reference out of my arse). It would be dull, uninteresting and overall boring (if you don't already think it is) if it didn't have mountains of lore behind it.
There's my 2 cents. Don't flame me for playing WoW, or you will feel the wrath of my logical and well presented logic.
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WoW is an RPG. Trem is an FPS. Massive difference.
And why should lore be on a wiki? The forums work much much better.
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Lore is not subject to change. Things like mod concepts are.
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Lore is not subject to change. Things like mod concepts are.
This is exactly the point. Mod concepts and discussions are suited for forums, while lore is more suited to a wiki.
Admittedly in a game like Tremulous where there is no fixed lore, a forum is a good place to discuss it. However, there are fixed opinions, such as the Haos Redros corporations payment of the mercenary clone armies.
WoW is an RPG. Trem is an FPS. Massive difference.
No there isn't. If I was making a point about gameplay you would have a point. You don't, however, because I was talking about background lore. WoW is steeped in lore, but so is the Quake series (or at least 2,4 and QW) which is an FPS. Being an FPS has nothing to do with it.
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It has a lot to do with player expectations.
But the main point I was making is that wiki's are good for things that have lots of authors working on the same thing, and little discussion about it, while forums are good for things with just one author, and lots of discussion.
Thus guides work on a wiki, and lore / art works best here. On a wiki it'll just end up with loads of comment spam all over it, and then someone will "improve" it, and you'll end up in an edit war, with no way to resolve it, as there is no way to resolve a matter of opinion.
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I don't believe you understand, Kaleo. 'Lore is not subject to change' means that there is no reason for someone (other than the author) to tamper/change/modify it in any way. 'Things like mod concepts are' means that mod concepts are supposed to at least become a mod, if not integrated into the normal game, so they will no doubt need lots of tweaks. Having multiple people suggest and execute their tweaks enables this process to go faster.
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The problem I see with lore on a wiki, while I do think it could be cool, is that like mentioned there will be many edit wars. Someone will write something, someone will tamper with it.. blablabla. And even if that doesn't happen, it will happen because no one but the author posts in it, which defeats the purpose of a wiki.
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//Idea/Concept for Wiki arrangement
GamePlay
- Team Over Views
- Class, Weapon, Equiptment, Buildable OverViews/Information
- Team Stratergy
- Building Stratergy
- Map OverViews/Info/Stratergy
- Settings/Options
- Setting Up A Server
- Backround to the game
Development
- Dev Team
- Mapping
- Modding
I think Knowitalls suggestion is decent enough. Anyone else want to comment before I launch with that?
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Looks OK to me.
What are the rules to the wiki going to be? Wikipedia style [citation-needed] stuffs, or original research etc etc all allowed?
Obviously guides etc are never going to encyclopaedic, but lots of other bits could be.
Also, are we writing for 1.1 or 1.2 or what? IMO it should be future-proof, with everything marked as to what versions its about so when 1.2 comes its not a ton of work.
Also, what'e deal with mods etc? Should Settings/Options cover non-default stuff? And setting up a server shouldn't be 1.1, but what should it be? That's an edit war right there...
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The problem I see with lore on a wiki, while I do think it could be cool, is that like mentioned there will be many edit wars. Someone will write something, someone will tamper with it.. blablabla. And even if that doesn't happen, it will happen because no one but the author posts in it, which defeats the purpose of a wiki.
Urban Dead'd wiki (http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php/Main_Page) has a lot of lore on it. Obviously Urban Dead and Tremulous aren't very similar however it does show that lore can reside quite happily on a wiki. If it's related to Tremulous then I don't see why it shouldn't be on the wiki. If people don't want 'their' lore tampered with they can still post it on the forums.
Looks OK to me.
What are the rules to the wiki going to be? Wikipedia style [citation-needed] stuffs, or original research etc etc all allowed?
Obviously guides etc are never going to encyclopaedic, but lots of other bits could be.
I don't think requiring citations is a very good idea at all. I'm having a hard time thinking of any reliables sources we could use for a Tremulous wiki. About the only things that could perhaps have citations from reliable sources would be things that don't need citations (eg names of weapons, etc). Using sources that aren't 'reliable' (eg forum posts, blogs) defeats the whole purpose of using citations in the first place.
Also, are we writing for 1.1 or 1.2 or what? IMO it should be future-proof, with everything marked as to what versions its about so when 1.2 comes its not a ton of work.
If we decided to mark what versions (1.1 or 1.2) the wiki page is about then we'd have to mark pretty much every page in game play. Not necessarily a bad thing though and definitely something that should be thought about.
I hope I made a bit of sense there as I have a splitting headache at the moment.
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Looks OK to me.
What are the rules to the wiki going to be? Wikipedia style [citation-needed] stuffs, or original research etc etc all allowed?
Obviously guides etc are never going to encyclopaedic, but lots of other bits could be.
I don't think requiring citations is a very good idea at all. I'm having a hard time thinking of any reliables sources we could use for a Tremulous wiki. About the only things that could perhaps have citations from reliable sources would be things that don't need citations (eg names of weapons, etc). Using sources that aren't 'reliable' (eg forum posts, blogs) defeats the whole purpose of using citations in the first place.
Both ends of the scale are bad. But there is plenty of room in the middle to find a nice spot, and IMO "Share sucks" isn't really the sort of thing that belongs, but where is the line drawn?
And citations will be very useful when talking about the many flame-war-starting topics.
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I agree that citations would be nice to have but I'm having a hard time of thinking what we could use as citations and when we would use them. Perhaps if you gave me some examples of what sort of citations (eg, from newspapers, blog posts, etc) we'd use and when we would have to use them (eg anything that isn't tagged as a guide) then I could get my head around this idea?
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If we decided to mark what versions (1.1 or 1.2) the wiki page is about then we'd have to mark pretty much every page in game play. Not necessarily a bad thing though and definitely something that should be thought about.
I know a method of adding a template that appears above the frame, with a title, so if we ever have to come to this, we could do version markings.
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O hi.
Wiki is pretty much 'ready' for content. Categories are in place and are ready to go. Theme is almost done. I think it's safe to say we can slowly get started. Any kinks that we run into, we can work out as we go along.
If you guys could start moving the good content from tremwiki.com into the appropriate categories would be great. We can do a full "hard" launch once that is done, as I'll make tremwiki.com point to our new official wiki: http://www.tremulous.net/wiki .
I have also added a wiki button that does [wiki] [/wiki]
Which can be used: [wiki]Main_Page[/wiki] which produces [wiki]Main_Page[/wiki]
Or you can do [wiki=Main_Page]Click here[/wiki] which produces [wiki=Main_Page]Click here[/wiki]
Everyone can login with their forum username and password, though there might be some initial issues with logging in, especially forum users who have spaces in your names. If you are affected, please post here or PM me and I hope to get those all resolved asap.
Also, at this time I'd like to keep lore and other such stuff off the wiki until we've come up with an appropriate policy to govern them. Let's just keep it facts/help/FAQ/support/definitions/etc. until then (similar to what tremwiki.com currently has.)
Khalsa
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Great to hear. Looks like we've almost got all the default maps included already! Hopefully we'll be able to begin adding lore to the wiki soon.
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Which can be used: [wiki]Main_Page[/wiki] which produces [wiki]Main_Page[/wiki]
One more thing: [wiki]Main Page[/wiki] (and [wiki]main page[/wiki]) should be the same as [wiki]Main_Page[/wiki]
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So what are we doing about versions? More importantly, what about things that change between 1.1 and newer clients/qvms?
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Modding and mapping sections are for howtos or already-released mods/maps? (or both)
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".svg" is not a permitted file type. Permitted file types are png, gif, jpg, jpeg.
Can we have SVG's too?
EDIT: [wiki]R_gamma[/wiki] Is that how it should be? We should agree on a style before all doing different things.
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I don't think all cvars should have their own page, and it doesn't require vid_restart, range is 0.5 - 3.
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So what are we doing about versions? More importantly, what about things that change between 1.1 and newer clients/qvms?
All information should be about 1.1, things that are significantly changed and are in svn should be mentioned imo.
Modding and mapping sections are for howtos or already-released mods/maps? (or both)
How to Mod and Map.
".svg" is not a permitted file type. Permitted file types are png, gif, jpg, jpeg.
Can we have SVG's too?
EDIT: [wiki]R_gamma[/wiki] Is that how it should be? We should agree on a style before all doing different things.
SVG enabled. Scratch that, server is having some issues with that, use PNG for now untill I have time to look into it.
As far as per-page cvars... you guys figure that out with Paradox.. I dunno the best way to do it.
Khalsa
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Per page cvars is perfect, and NOT impossible.
Mediawiki's homepage has a page for every $wg setting, so i dont see how we are any different. If anyone wants, ill make up a template for the cvars so we can see information about them, such as type, default, etc.
And if you guys see any vandalism, please report it to Khalsa or me.
David, do we really need as compicated a template structure as that of wikipedia? Wouldn't it be better to make our own from scratch?
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Templates are good, as we can change the template and all pages that use it are updated. It also ensures all pages follow the same style. (The templates should of course be fully protected)
I'd suggest doing the same for maps etc etc.
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Yes, i encourage templates. But we dont need thousands of complex templates (such as !, !!, !!!!!!) etc.
Keep it simple till we need it.
I haven't edited any of your templates, but i have left comments on their talk pages. You might want to read them.
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Yeah, the ! stuff is there because the thing to do alternating colored rows needs it, and is a major mess so I didn't want to edit it.
I'm sure it can be done a nicer way, I just don't know how and importing a handful of templates is easier than reinventing the wheel.
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Ah well, i guess we can just copy them. But cleaning them up later=headache.
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Hope it's not too late, but maybe a section for mod concepts?
Edit: I like how it fits with the forum's theme. I also like the binding section.
Edit2: May I ask how you imported the trem users into the wiki? Will the wiki's users update as the forum's do?
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2 things:
Tables don't work. They work but no borders or anything else.
Should we put cvars and commands and whatever into there own namespaces? As it is there will be pages call "name" and "sex" and "set" and whatnot, it could get a big confusing and potentially ambiguous. If they are all Cvar:name and Command:print then it will be clearer, and also easier on the URLs.
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Hope it's not too late, but maybe a section for mod concepts?
Edit: I like how it fits with the forum's theme. I also like the binding section.
Edit2: May I ask how you imported the trem users into the wiki? Will the wiki's users update as the forum's do?
Mod concepts go in the Mod idea Palace (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?board=24.0)
Thanks
No importing, it's simply calls SMF's SSI for authentication. So yes.
2 things:
Tables don't work. They work but no borders or anything else.
I will look into this as soon as I get time.
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Mod concepts go in the Mod idea Palace (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?board=24.0)
Well, yes, but some mod concepts would be better in a wiki format. Especially new ones, since they require a lot of tweaking.
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2 things:
Tables don't work. They work but no borders or anything else.
2 reasons:
No table style defined in the theme. Try setting tables to class wikitable.
If you see any other missing classes/styles that should be standard, tell me (talk page plx) and ill add them.
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Well, yes, but some mod concepts would be better in a wiki format. Especially new ones, since they require a lot of tweaking.
Every post comes with it's very own edit or modify button, it's quite amazing really.
If the mod is that complete or large, they should have their own website anyways :-)
Khalsa
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Every post comes with it's very own edit or modify button, it's quite amazing really.
If the mod is that complete or large, they should have their own website anyways :-)
Khalsa
Yes, but not everyone can edit my post. And what's the point of setting up a website for a concept?
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Suggest changes go in replies for discussion. If it's *your* concept then you keep up with the first post :)
Not like a concept needs to be super duper fleshed out, once code starts hitting the SCM's then you basically do need a 'website' of some sort.
Khalsa
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Google sites if you want a plainass simple wiki for your mod that wont ever get off the ground
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If anyone is looking for something to do for the wiki, look here
http://tremulous.net/wiki/Category:Unsorted_Cvars
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I'm sorry, but I don't know where to put this info.
Can you write a public documentation for train new developers of tremulous? I want to understand howto collaborate to tremulous.
Thanks
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could there be an article on porting maps and maybe add the user maps to the list?
Oh and i did this. http://tremulous.net/wiki/Compiling
Not sure where you wanted it on the main page so i left it alone.
It needs mac and POSIX build instructions. and im sure theres several issues that need to be addressed for the windows guide.
the regulations of wikis are so strict ts hard to put a link to anything.
for instance you cant provide a download link for mingw or the MS sdk.
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I vote add pages for other maps, but not on the main page, as deciding who gets to be there is a major PITA. Add a link to Category:Maps though.
Don't need a compiling guild for posix, it's just "make" and done.
And why can't you link?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:EL
There are individual pages for maps currently.
I think the best way to handle user maps would be if we retag the existing one with (defualt) and (username) to distinguish the ones shipped with trem and the rest. also it gives credit to the creator.
and to relieve job duty i think it best that the creators make pages for their maps and add them unless by some request.
wikipedia can be a pain to create pages for.
and i disagree about POSIX.
BSD has ports and portsnap and is it in asparagus?
and area for simple svn needs to be added that just says
"check out here using client of your choice
refer to doc for help
cd to directory
execute "make install clean"
and OSX is technically UNIX.
id say installation needs to be added to the main hierchy so we can also add using layman and emerge in gentoo and the binary package systems equo yum dpkg rpm apt and the one distro systems like pisi used in pardus.
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Screw wikipedia's policies and crap. Link whatever you need to.
Leave the maps as-is I vote. There's little need to mark official and unofficial maps, most people know. And if two maps have the same name, then first come first server, idiots shouldn't steal names.
It's a wiki, anyone can make a page for a map.
Encouraging people to use the repos is a bad idea, they just cause problems and if we suggest it it makes it harder to tell people to not use them when they come asking for help.
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okey dokey then ill do some more work on it in a couple hours.
Updated.
Fixed busted heading format
Fixed contents menu
Added link to MS SDK
Added POSIX instructions
Changed code notes accordingly so that someone doesnt redo work
Things to do to/for the compiling page.
Add MAC instructions or point me to a howto
Link MSys
Link MinGW
Add a "why should i compile" or point me to a good summary
Add a Section for BSD ports, equo and emerge. Or simply tell me the directory of the Ports tree and the location for the overlays and i will add them.
Spellchauk =P
If you see something else let me know.
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OH that page needs to be added to the main navigate page under documentation.
If someone could please do so. that way we dont have multiple pages.
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I've been sorting all those unsorted cvars and I'm not sure where to put the ones that are both client and server side. Should they stay in the unsorted list?
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Put them in all category's that apply.
Just put the tags one after another like in [wiki]Sv_master1[/wiki].
But 99% don't go in more than one.
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I have a question about the wiki, and I figured this would be the best place to ask. I was wondering about something that I'd like a dev/mod's opinion on.
Many of the articles have stub templates, and many of them _do_ need more work, but many of them I don't see how they will ever be not "stubs."
For example; [wiki]G_alienStage3Threshold[/wiki]. I don't think there is really anything more that should be added to this article, simply because there isn't really anything that can be added to this article. It tells what the cvar is and what it does. Now, if this were the only article like this I would remove the stub template, but there are dozens of similar articles (mostly cvars) that are tagged as stubs because they are only a few lines. I think that while short, there isn't much that could be done to them (but if anyone has suggestions please feel free to voice them). The bad thing about having all these articles tagged as stubs when there isn't much that can be done to change them is the fact that 1. it's cluttered, and 2. when people look at the list of stubs in order to help improve the wiki they see mostly these cvars and such that can't really be helped. I think a stub means more "a page that needs more added to be finished" instead of "a short page."
If there is some good way that anyone can think of to improve/lengthen these many short articles in general please say and people (myself included) will hopefully get that done. If there is no way that anyone sees to change this, I suggest removing the stub category on all of the articles which can not be lengthened (many of the cvars).
What say you people? (Mostly ones who have a real say, but anyone can speak.)
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I vote remove the stub for such articles. It was auto-added for pages with the auto-created infoboxes. If a page is "complete" then it's not a stub.
Should probably have used a "auto-created" template instead.
Soon we'll have "not updated for 1.2" boxes on every page :)
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Basically what david said :) The stub thing was added automatically to all the.. automatically created pages. Once the page is functionally complete (such as your example) feel free to remove it :)
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I want crow bars in tremulous they would make good melee weapons ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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A small thing I noticed, is that logging in redirects you to the main page, even if you were previously viewing some other page. It's not a major thing, but it is a small annoyance if I am looking at a page, want to edit it, so I login and get redirected, and have to navigate my way back to the page. Like I said, this isn't a huge problem, but it shouldn't be hard to fix.
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[I reply here because the Wiki told me to do so. "If you see any problems or something that should be added/changed mention it [here]."]
The whole Wiki should be downloadable. I just read the text over at tremwiki.com saying "Note: Tremwiki now requires registration to edit pages, as a large number of spambots seem to be taking over. Sorry if we lost a few revisions in the cleanup."
I now spent about 10 hours of editing the tremulous.net Wiki, and in case something bad happens, I want to at least have the data so that I could repair the pages.
Otherwise, I'd rather stop investing time into this.
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You can download specific lists of pages here: http://tremulous.net/wiki/Special:Export.
I don't think there's an easy way to get a full dump.
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You can download specific lists of pages here: http://tremulous.net/wiki/Special:Export.
I don't think there's an easy way to get a full dump.
Thanks for the reply. I toyed with the function a bit, and the simplest way I found was to copy the names of the maybe 30 categories into the textbox and click "add" every time. If there were a simpler way to get a simple one-column list of all page names (or page names of pages that one person edited), this would be an ok way. But currently, it's too much of a hassle.
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The whole Wiki should be downloadable.
I'm down. Tell me what to do settings/plugin wise to make this possible and I'll do it in a semi-reasonable amount of time.
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Dump the following in cron once a day:
/bin/nice -n 19 /usr/bin/php-cli ~/public_html/w/maintenance/dumpBackup.php --full | gzip > ~/public_html/w/latest_backup.xml.gz
Or something.
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The wiki mapping section is now a complete mess: http://tremulous.net/w/index.php?title=Mapping#mapping_crash_course (http://tremulous.net/w/index.php?title=Mapping#mapping_crash_course)
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Gmotw has reached mastery in wall of texting :o
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First person, opinionated, wiki articles. God save us all...
Oh snap..
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/bin/nice -n 19
Finally, somebody nice enough to not tell you to rape the shit out of a server. I deal with moron clients of mine who have nightly backups scheduled (for lots and lots of small files) that tend to rape the shit out of disk I/O. They refuse to nice their backup processes.
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The wiki mapping section is now a complete mess: http://tremulous.net/w/index.php?title=Mapping#mapping_crash_course (http://tremulous.net/w/index.php?title=Mapping#mapping_crash_course)
Ew, uncapitalized titles! Nasty!
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OMG, your face and friends, you are so unbelievably low. Can't you stop your mobbing campaign already? Can't you see that you are clearly acting against the will of the community? But it doesn't matter to you school kids, for you have found that it is fun to bully me.
- It is a Wiki. If you don't like what's written there, optimize it or STFU.
- The Wiki didn't have a mapping tutorial, now it has one. Mea fucking culpa. What have *you* contributed so far?
- The mapping section is a mess now, huh? Because there's an additional article in it, and you find something wrong about it? Why do I bother. Your words are just mind vomit. The purpose is to throw dirt, not to speak truth.
- Someone who doesn't wear the hate-glasses will realize that the mapping crash course indeed gets you going quite quickly while preventing starter mistakes.
Do you guys really believe that what you're doing is right? I don't think so.
Uncapitalized titles? Guys. I can send you a photo of my hair cut. I mean, if you're really out of material.
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Shut up.
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OMG, your face and friends, you are so unbelievably low. Can't you stop your mobbing campaign already? Can't you see that you are clearly acting against the will of the community? But it doesn't matter to you school kids, for you have found that it is fun to bully me.
- It is a Wiki. If you don't like what's written there, optimize it or STFU.
- The Wiki didn't have a mapping tutorial, now it has one. Mea fucking culpa. What have *you* contributed so far?
- The mapping section is a mess now, huh? Because there's an additional article in it, and you find something wrong about it? Why do I bother. Your words are just mind vomit. The purpose is to throw dirt, not to speak truth.
- Someone who doesn't wear the hate-glasses will realize that the mapping crash course indeed gets you going quite quickly while preventing starter mistakes.
Do you guys really believe that what you're doing is right? I don't think so.
Uncapitalized titles? Guys. I can send you a photo of my hair cut. I mean, if you're really out of material.
They're trollin', ignore 'em or you're MrFish.
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OMG, your face and friends, you are so unbelievably low.
Hmm, it sure seems like anyone who disagrees with you is either one of my minions I have under a spell or one of my school-kid friends.
They're trollin', ignore 'em or you're MrFish.
"trollin'" = stating my opinion on a crap mapping tutorial? :P
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A "crash course" of 20k words... a crash course in wall of texting maybe, but not mapping...
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They're trollin', ignore 'em or you're MrFish.
Well. Since you don't remotely believe that I might maybe really be God, the following explanation is lost (again), but it explains why I give it at all: To shift the world from insanity to sanity (Yes. The world (mankind) is insane. Not me.), it helps me to interact with people. And these forum flies, they are unimportant. It doesn't matter if they get smitten as a result of their actions, but they still help me to complete my work.
Hmm, it sure seems like anyone who disagrees with you is either one of my minions I have under a spell or one of my school-kid friends.
They're trollin', ignore 'em or you're MrFish.
"trollin'" = stating my opinion on a crap mapping tutorial? :P
Your face: No one here - even those who agree with you - gives a crap about your opinion regarding the tutorial, because they know that you are in no position to utter an honest opinion. You *must* throw dirt. That is the path that you are locked in to.
I wonder if someone who is
- capable of understanding English (as opposed to the "should of"-"theire"-nofullstop brain cases)
- interested in making Trem maps but without all experience
does agree with your disliking of the crash course.
A "crash course" of 20k words... a crash course in wall of texting maybe, but not mapping...
It's sad that you have fallen, too.
The truth is: People pay money to have a truckload of detailed knowledge delivered to them in book form under the label "crash course". Many little mistakes are prevented, many details are revealed, some of which are even new to experienced mappers.
The thing is: You people have come to the decision that whatever I do is unconditionally wrong. You are unable to properly judge any more, and you are blind to that, too, for the same reasons. If you survive, you'll come back in a few months and realize that OMG I have spoken the truth all along, technically even tried to lift your insanity.
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I've only read naming convention and it already differs from what I've read on tremmapping wiki. I think I know which source I trust more, TBH.
Also even if it's cool that you actually wrote 20k word guide, there will be really, really few people that actually read it. It is because:
1) IT'S FUCKING 20K WORDS. The length of the guide is just plain scary. You have written like 1.5 A4 page about name convention while it could be done in one paragraph.
2) There are no images, sometimes (most of times) it's better to put an image instead of writing wall of text
3) Everything is on one page, why not separate it (see wikibooks)
4) Formating, instead of writing wall of text, why not just summarize it (using lists or something).
5) Yes, Having Paragraphs Capitalized is Cool Thing Too.
6) It goess off the site borders (see bottom horizontal scrollbar :P )
7)
8) Had to include Cool Smiley Face
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[silly bullshit]
...OMG...
[more silly bullshit]
Something more along the lines of, `Oh myself!' ?
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I've only read naming convention and it already differs from what I've read on tremmapping wiki. I think I know which source I trust more, TBH.
It will be revealed that my naming conventions are better. Wait a while. Only then, people who didn't follow it will look back and think "if only I had listened".
Also even if it's cool that you actually wrote 20k word guide, there will be really, really few people that actually read it. It is because:
1) IT'S FUCKING 20K WORDS. The length of the guide is just plain scary. You have written like 1.5 A4 page about name convention while it could be done in one paragraph.
I am one of the weird people who actually read books from time to time. One of which is "Crash Kurs Typo & Layout". It contains compressed knowledge - and much of it. So does the mapping crash course.
2) There are no images, sometimes (most of times) it's better to put an image instead of writing wall of text
3) Everything is on one page, why not separate it (see wikibooks)
Apart from the fact that I am not done with the text yet (though I will, for understandable reasons and some that are only known to me and other Trem people, not continue with it, and one of the reasons is that you people plain simply do not deserve it), I expected others to contribute, too. Again: It's a *Wiki*. So, fix what you don't like instead of accusing me that I contributed in a way that you do not approve off. I will not contribute to the Tremulous Wiki any more. It's like building a base and then being treated like shit by your only teammate.
4) Formating, instead of writing wall of text, why not just summarize it (using lists or something).
I am not done with it, and I wanted to collect the information first. That's also the reason that some Radiant-howto knowledge is in sections that actually deal with making a map. It's an early version. It's like someone's writing a book, only my draft is public. I wonder if it is I who has not understood the concept of a Wiki correctly or if someone else is at error.
5) Yes, Having Paragraphs Capitalized is Cool Thing Too.
That is a question of taste, and mine is clearly different. I will stick to it, and hence, mankind will adhere to it at some point, for reality (which is what I represent) will leave them no choice.
6) It goess off the site borders (see bottom horizontal scrollbar :P )
That is just because of a batch file that I explained and quoted, something that is useful - if you *really* want to learn something.
I think that we can agree on the facts that
1) the group of people who dislike the crash course is much more vocal - because it's currently a Tremulous.net fad to fight against my person
2) the group of people who like it (who would be much less vocal) does actually not exist yet, for the article is too new and the community too inactive
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We are/I am giving you ideas what could be done better, what is wrong. Then you start to
screamwrite how bad/evil/greedy/whatever we are and that everybody on these forums is against you. Stop being so emo and accept the fact that nothing you do is perfect from the beginning. Same thing applies to basically everyone. I wish I know how to edit wiki - but "I'm not the wiki guy". You seem you are.
I also read books (no, not only Harry Potter). But when I read a tutorial, I except it to be simple, clear and as short as possible. Not sure about the first two since I didn't read the whole thing, but from what I've read so far I'm sure it could be shorter
About paragraphs - sorry I meant titles :P - though still it's better to have them capitalized. If you haven't noticed, all other articles on the wiki do. Plus if I recall correctly, it's grammatical error when you don't start a sentence with capital letter.
No matter what you will say in your post, the fact is that nobody's gonna read it in it's current form.
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It will be revealed that my naming conventions are better. Wait a while. Only then, people who didn't follow it will look back and think "if only I had listened".
You keep telling yourself that... ;)
I am one of the weird people who actually read books from time to time. One of which is "Crash Kurs Typo & Layout". It contains compressed knowledge - and much of it. So does the mapping crash course.
Do you honestly believe that someone who is beginning to learn how to map is going to want to read a darned book to learn how to map (a boring, opinionated, book at that)?
I will not contribute to the Tremulous Wiki any more.
Well, that's a blessing.
That is a question of taste, and mine is clearly different. I will stick to it, and hence, mankind will adhere to it at some point, for reality (which is what I represent) will leave them no choice.
Hahahaha, have you considered being a comedian?
No, it is not a "question of taste," it is proper wiki etiquette. Also, that's not even the main problem with your article; you have extremely opinionated views on mapping, and you typed out the whole thing in first person?! Have you ever read a wiki article before?
I wonder if it is I who has not understood the concept of a Wiki correctly or if someone else is at error.
I hate to offend your majesty, but I'm pretty sure that it's you.
1) the group of people who dislike the crash course is much more vocal - because it's currently a Tremulous.net fad to fight against my person
Have you ever considered the possibility that you're just a very unlikeable person? :P
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You people have come to the decision that whatever I do is unconditionally wrong. You are unable to properly judge any more, and you are blind to that, too, for the same reasons. If you survive, you'll come back in a few months and realize that OMG I have spoken the truth all along, technically even tried to lift your insanity.
Since you don't remotely believe that I might maybe really be God, the following explanation is lost (again)
It will be revealed that my naming conventions are better. Wait a while. Only then, people who didn't follow it will look back and think "if only I had listened".
Apart from the fact that I am not done with the text yet (though I will, for understandable reasons and some that are only known to me and other Trem people, not continue with it, and one of the reasons is that you people plain simply do not deserve it), I expected others to contribute, too. Again: It's a *Wiki*. So, fix what you don't like instead of accusing me that I contributed in a way that you do not approve off. I will not contribute to the Tremulous Wiki any more. It's like building a base and then being treated like shit by your only teammate.
That is a question of taste, and mine is clearly different. I will stick to it, and hence, mankind will adhere to it at some point, for reality (which is what I represent) will leave them no choice.
Wow. You have the arrogance of Odysseus himself.
OMG, your face and friends, you are so unbelievably low. Can't you stop your mobbing campaign already? Can't you see that you are clearly acting against the will of the community?
That's odd, somehow I get the feeling that it is a general sentiment.
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Do you honestly believe that someone who is beginning to learn how to map is going to want to read a darned book to learn how to map (a boring, opinionated, book at that)?
Do I honestly believe that someone who wants to learn how to do something complex they couldn't do before wants to read a book?
I will not contribute to the Tremulous Wiki any more.
Well, that's a blessing.
Is that so. Ok then. I have just blanked the mapping article, referencing the community's request for that. I wonder how long it will take until a mod reverts the blanking because apparently what I wrote is much better than nothing.
Wow. You have the arrogance of Odysseus himself.
It's funny that you use Odysseus as an example. Because, when he came home as a beggar, finding his house full of unworthy abusive people, he took his mighty bow and smote them all.
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Why did you remove it? Removing a guide in order to put "This post has been removed by the community of tremulous" is stupid. A guide is a guide and it's going to help someone. Grant it it might be long, and might talk about a lot of stuff, but as long as it isn't *wrong* or giving *incorrect information* leave it until someone else comes around and posts something better!
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You fail at ragequit http://tremulous.net/w/index.php?title=Mapping&oldid=4235 :P
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Why did you remove it?
Because it was clearly stated by several people that what I have written is unwanted. The text material is still there, so they can now demonstrate how it is to be done instead of just talking about it. Until then, the so improper article will not be shown as part of the Wiki.
Wrong again? So, what you are saying to me is: "Do not grant them their wish." So, I'd like you to talk to them about it, not to attack me from yet another front. See, it's just as I said: There is no possible right decision for me. This statement, however, is of course false.
Face it: We are finally entering the situation in which it is the people's will that I don't obey them any longer, however paradox that might sound. As a result, I become ruler. Wait a few weeks, and you'll see that I'm right.
You fail at ragequit http://tremulous.net/w/index.php?title=Mapping&oldid=4235 :P
Oh? A Wiki allows to review previous versions of an article? Damn, I didn't know that.
I'd say you fail at using strawman attacks.
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you should never listen to people on the intertubes
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Your 'wall of text' was a slight improvement over 'nothing', but you could have done much, much better with a lot less text...
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Your 'wall of text' was a slight improvement over 'nothing', but you could have done much, much better with a lot less text...
I agree that it would be possible to convey the same amount of mapper experience with shorter sentences or incomplete sentences concentrating on keywords.
But I disagree that this could be done with an overall much shorter article.
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Hm, I learned to map and I didn't need to read a book to do it. I don't think anyone should be punished with that.
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Hm, I learned to map and I didn't need to read a book to do it. I don't think anyone should be punished with that.
But you *have* stepped into many little traps, no? There were relevant things that you didn't read, and some experiences you had to make were painful, right? And you would have rather skipped that, right?
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Wrong again? So, what you are saying to me is: "Do not grant them their wish." So, I'd like you to talk to them about it, not to attack me from yet another front. See, it's just as I said: There is no possible right decision for me. This statement, however, is of course false.
Face it: We are finally entering the situation in which it is the people's will that I don't obey them any longer, however paradox that might sound. As a result, I become ruler. Wait a few weeks, and you'll see that I'm right.
Um no? I'm not saying that at all or trying to attack you from another front. As I'll say again, if you make a tutorial, guide, ect to help someone and it isn't *incorrect* it is benefiting people. Everyone who thinks that the wiki would be better with out your guid should either write a better one, or not read yours. There is no reason for them to ask you to remove it or make fun of it.
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But you *have* stepped into many little traps, no? There were relevant things that you didn't read, and some experiences you had to make were painful, right? And you would have rather skipped that, right?
Right. But what you're suggesting is like making a beginning rock-climber hike up Mount Everest instead of starting him out on something easier to get the grips of the sport. It's like sending a padawan against a Sith Lord before the padawan has been properly trained in the Force.
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But you *have* stepped into many little traps, no? There were relevant things that you didn't read, and some experiences you had to make were painful, right? And you would have rather skipped that, right?
Right. But what you're suggesting is like making a beginning rock-climber hike up Mount Everest instead of starting him out on something easier to get the grips of the sport. It's like sending a padawan against a Sith Lord before the padawan has been properly trained in the Force.
<3
GOD SAYS: COULD BE MOAR COMPLICATE
FAEC SAYS: COULD BE MOAR SIMPLER
END DISCUSS
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Umm... WTF is with the Wiki homepage? It worked an hour ago, now it doesn't.
Recent Changes New Pages
These are the 25 most recent changes that weren't made by you:
UNIQ609c2432399ff703-item-0--QINU The 25 newest pages
There are no results for this report.
(http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/845/20100730142516cet.th.png) (http://img294.imageshack.us/i/20100730142516cet.png/)
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No idea. The exact same list works fine on [wiki]Sandbox[/wiki]. It also works fine with the list down the bottom of the page. So it's all very odd :s.
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The guide was fine. I'm relatively new to mapping, and I read it (all) and found it helpful.
As for length, watch any decent "intro to mapping/radiant" series of videos on youtube, have a think about how deep they go, and how many words they use. Yes, you do need to do a lot of writing to adequately cover everything in a crash course, people are just unaccustomed to seing something of that scope in text.
Yes, it was first person and a bit of an ego trip in places, but that didn't bother me.
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Hi, I found out that the trem wiki is seriously spammed, see:
http://tremulous.net/wiki/Special:LonelyPages
http://tremulous.net/wiki/Special:DeadendPages
Looks like there are several hundred spam pages. I don't know how to solve the situation, so I'm just posting it here, as instructed by the header above the wiki pages.
Best regards, nalf
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there are thousands.
I was deleting them as they arrived, but it jumped from 2 or 3 a day to hundreds a day and I don't have time to spend an hour a day clicking delete and ban.
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sry,I think someone should add about how to record/play/stop/list demos and also record about taking condumps/screenshots.ok I edited it,I also saw many offf topic pages,is there a way for me to block those users and del thos off topic pages.
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sry,I think someone should add about how to record/play/stop/list demos and also record about taking condumps/screenshots.ok I edited it,I also saw many offf topic SPAM pages,is there a way for me to block those users and del thos off topic pages.
This would be nice if the wiki was not a spam infested sh!t hole.
This could still be nice if some wiki admin did something about it.
http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=16834.0
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If I am a tremulous wiki admin,I will try to get rid of this shit together with my xserverx friends. btw this are theu ser I have edited their page as the pages are not related to trem and have instead put content not relsted to trem.pls ban them
they are:
User:Andrienne981
User:Meralda986
User:Yuliya915
pls ban them and their ip.
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oh i suddenly have an idea,only people who sign up at (tremulous forums our this forum) can edit the wiki pages ,no one should be allowed to sign up at the tremulous wiki,this should reduce the amount of spam.there should not be a sign up link to here either,they must come here and sign up.
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there are many! More coming every minute/second
Here, just a few of them
http://tremulous.net/wiki/Category:Spam
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pls ban them and their ip.
IP (Internet Protocol) is a general communications standard, and cannot be banned. a user's IP address (eg. 207.18.2.153), however, can be banned.
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ok then ban the user and the ip and del their pages.they are:
LuiseMcKirnan110 KeianaGerard1362 KeianaGerard1362
Borsca546 DannielHoward227 DannielHoward227
Hyale763 TrudeCass1974 MaekoHelmer3789
Lilika95 ClovisHanks1822 PingBedeau3285
Borska568 AvlynnCrawford2977 Fidessa845
JazminaWilmot3302 NolynBride11650 FrancineCoons1635
FinolaHipwood2047 MerrieGilchrist1218 Vanessa0
EmmaMayerson SisleyMilton4190 Nydia819
FraynGunter1386 Valenechounnr OliverioLawley310
Adria99 JordyDag43 JordyDag43
MahalathLobdale2409 FreshProducerecruitment EilwenMonger2492
AquanettaBaba2730 NachmanCoombs781 NootauQuin2728
those are the spam users for today.
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ok then ban the user and the ip and del their pages.they are:
LuiseMcKirnan110 KeianaGerard1362 KeianaGerard1362
Borsca546 DannielHoward227 DannielHoward227
Hyale763 TrudeCass1974 MaekoHelmer3789
Lilika95 ClovisHanks1822 PingBedeau3285
Borska568 AvlynnCrawford2977 Fidessa845
JazminaWilmot3302 NolynBride11650 FrancineCoons1635
FinolaHipwood2047 MerrieGilchrist1218 Vanessa0
EmmaMayerson SisleyMilton4190 Nydia819
FraynGunter1386 Valenechounnr OliverioLawley310
Adria99 JordyDag43 JordyDag43
MahalathLobdale2409 FreshProducerecruitment EilwenMonger2492
AquanettaBaba2730 NachmanCoombs781 NootauQuin2728
those are the spam users for today.
[/color]
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Dont waste your time. They are a horde
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we should not give up,we can turn this wiki into a usefultool,but only if the wiki admins do not give up.(I think the wiki admins have already given up)
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we should not give up,we can turn this wiki into a usefultool,but only if the wiki admins do not give up.(I think the wiki admins have already given up)
Yes, the default options to delete pages in mediwiki are useless.
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we should not give up,we can turn this wiki into a usefultool,but only if the wiki admins do not give up.(I think the wiki admins have already given up)
It is impossible to maintain. Somehow they are registering directly without registering to forum first.
If you really want to contribute you can do it on trem.wikia.org
I can give admin privileges to trem devs, forum mods, and known users.
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ok,I do want to contribute,I will go to trem.wikia.org
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somehow I cannot access the website,I get redirected to http://www.wikia.com/Wikia why?
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sorry, it is .com (not .org)
http://trem.wikia.com/wiki/Trem_Wiki
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ok.
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The Dretch wiki page is not what it has to be. Please correct it!
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Undo doesn't work so it took a few extra clicks, but that user's
contributions have all been undone. There's a lot more spam I can't/won't do anything about