Gameplay Preview Phase 1 Results

[AppleJuice]

I'll reply to your posts as I read them (since they're long).

Pounce is dumb and let me spell it out for you.

Pounce

• hits 1 person.
• is less effective at range.
• is negated heavily by armor.
• takes a long time to charge.

Chomping

• Is faster (1.1)
• Can do double damage for a head bite
• Can hit multiple people(time wise vs pounce).
• Scales against armor better (due to headchomps)

The only drawback to chomping is that it requires being close and a headshot to be deadly.  But aiming a pounce is easier than aiming a headchomp.  The only hard thing about pouncing is the delay and limitations of charging one.  That's not a skill challenge, its a feature handicap.  Its takes skill to headchomp.  It doesn't take skill to hold and release a button.

The problem is that people have it in their heads that goons are too powerful, so instead of a flat nerf, an indirect nerf is presented. Pounce is buffed* but overall damage potential or dps of the class is lowered due to headchomp being slower (plus the human buffs).  Goons are weaker, they just have a semi-overpowered feature.  

*which pounce was already powerful in stage 1

Part of your post does not debate what I have said. I also think the pounce should be changed, and I've stated this many times. However...

SEMI-overpowered? Are you kidding me? It's way overpowered, if you know how to use it.

If you really think dragoons have been nerfed despite the massive boost to pounce and the nerf to chomp, then you just suck at playing dragoons. Sorry. Adapt.

When I can consistently (as in, 30-40 kills before I finally die) pounce someone who was hard to chomp in 1.1 (this was in a devmapped 1v1, simply to test things. the human was either s2 or had a chainsuit), pounce is overpowered. When I can pounce 4-5 s1 humans while approaching from a distance (no MDs), pounce is overpowered. When I don't even bother to try when I see a lone human - even a chainsuit - pounce is overpowered. Not semi-overpowered. Really overpowered.

Also, pouncing is NOT as slow as you state it is. Learn to pounce, seriously. It's almost as quick, if not quicker, than chomping is (according to Tremulous.h, pouncing is actually 100 msec faster, now [edit: to clarify, relative to 1.1/1.2 chomping repeat, not absolutely], though I could be reading the values incorrectly. I doubt I am. Regardless, the speeds definitely feel very close).

Seriously, this is why people who don't know how to use something shouldn't comment that much on balance; they think it's underpowered when in reality they just don't know how to use it.

For reference:
+#define LEVEL3_CLAW_REPEAT          900
+#define LEVEL3_CLAW_U_REPEAT        800
+#define LEVEL3_POUNCE_TIME          800
+#define LEVEL3_POUNCE_TIME_UPG      800

Also, to address some of your points,
You're forgetting the insane knockback pounce has, and how it affects human dodging. Think about how you can use this to your advantage.
Range means nothing. It's very easy to close range with pounce, unless the map is bad for pouncing.
Pounce is not really negated heavily by armor. 3 pounces kill a human, 5 pounces kill a bsuit.
It takes a long time to chomp, now, too. Even in 1.1, pounce time == chomp time. Learn to pounce.
Edit: I forgot to add that pouncing also dodges fire, whether you'd like to admit it or not. ESPECIALLY if you pounce quickly (which you obviously do not).

Ok, sorry if I've been offensive (I just think your points are utterly wrong), and sorry for not responding to everything, but the madafakas in my clan are pressuring me to scrim, so I have to go. I'll respond to the rest tomorrow. I hope it's better

[temple]

You don't even know what you are talking about.  Figure out what LEVEL3_POUNCE_TIME and LEVEL3_POUNCE_CHARGE_TIME means.

[KamikOzzy]

Are you guys testing with ff on yet? FF will surely be a part of any self-respecting server, and from my experience it has a much greater effect on the alien side of the game.

Ideally the game would be balanced with FF on or off, so we're going to finish balancing FF off first (to a satisfactory extent).

I don't understand why FF off takes priority in balancing. Where did you guys get used to playing with FF off?

[AppleJuice]

You don't even know what you are talking about.  Figure out what LEVEL3_POUNCE_TIME and LEVEL3_POUNCE_CHARGE_TIME means.

Look at http://pastebin.ca/1720754
Thanks
You not only don't know what you're talking about, but you also don't know how to play this game

EDIT: In case you miss it, -#define LEVEL3_POUNCE_CHARGE_TIME   700

Double EDIT: if you want to go by +#define LEVEL3_POUNCE_REPEAT 400, then you should also keep in mind that pounces don't have to be fully charged. Overall, it's still around the same speed as chomp (if you always fully charge, probably a bit slower - probably, because you probably won't miss many pounces, but you might miss a chomp or two, which should be taken into account in terms of time).

The point: You only really need 1 full charge to disorient a human long enough to pounce-rape him with multiple weaker pounces, so the speed is pretty much the same or faster (especially after you take into account chomp misses, which happens to even the best players. Once players get used to it, I doubt they will miss nearly as often with pouncing).

[KamikOzzy]

you also don't know how to play this game

LOL I love/hate how easily we all get offensive around here. This really has to be the worst forum ever for getting along with people

[AppleJuice]

I was born offensive

[temple]

Nice edit.  You are figuring out how dragoons work.

The point I was making was 1) What was the problem with 1.1 goons 2) How does 1.2 solve the problem?

1.2 has already created another problem in its solution.  

A person can adapt all they want.  The 1.2 change is different.  But is it better?

[temple]

You can pounce someone to death if you are in a open space. 'Pouncerape' is easily counted by....walking behind something.

[AppleJuice]

Are you joking? I've known how dragoons work for a while. I'll bet anything my dragoon is way better than yours is, since I actually know how to pounce. In fact, play me anytime you wish. I just realized I didn't make my point clear (about misses affecting time, and also about smaller charges lowering the overall time).

Try responding to my other points (knockback, dodging fire, etc.) instead of repeating the same rhetoric all the time. You stated goons were weaker in 1.2 than they were in 1.1; I'm stating they're much stronger (and I don't agree with the new pounce).

Also, walking behind something doesn't really counter pouncing that effectively once dragoons get used to it. Pounces are quick, especially since you can also jump directly after a pounce with speed. I've pounced players to death on every single map I've played, in open spaces and in cramped spaces. In fact, cramped spaces are sometimes easier, since it also means the human has less room to dodge.

[temple]

There are too many different avenues to attack this; I'm not interested holding Tremulous 101 from a code or tactical standpoint with you.

[AppleJuice]

That's a great excuse for someone who doesn't have anything logical to counter with. Why don't I prove to you how overpowered pounce is in-game? 1v1 or teamplay, I don't care.

Also, you're ridiculous, because I've seen how you play in-game (unless you're not ScottFree), and you definitely should not try to tell other people how to play Tremulous/what's balanced/unbalanced.

[temple]

Could you use numbers to explain to me how the 1.2 goon is overpowered compared to the 1.1 goon?

You are flat out wrong but since you are itching for an argument, lets see if you can actually prove your point without taunting.

[David]

Rants are weaker

The new trample is powerful.  Powerful as hell. But lets talk about how a rant plays.

Drawbacks

• Big
• Slow
• Can't jump
• Has to trample to move fast

Advantages

• Decent slash damage
• Double damage on head shots
• Can chain tramples consistently
• Huge health

1.2 fucks up the advantages

1.2 Changes

• Huge health (that takes forever to regenerate)
• Huge hitbox (which becomes a drawback due to the above point)
• Slower trample charge (which makes lack of jumping and speed worse)
• Slower slash (which makes trampling into combat even more dangerous)

So what happens is you trample into combat, take a slash, and become a sitting duck.  You can't just trample out, you can't just slash your way out.  You just soak up hits.  Rants feel more like goons, just with more hitpoints and less evasion.   The lack of slash speed (and thus slash DPS) can never be substituted by having a powerful trample.

...

Assuming I'm reading this right...  Tyrants used to take 1500ms for max charge, and 750ms as the minimum for a mini-charge.  Now it's 1000ms max and 375ms min, so you takes less time to charge than before.  In both versions you could hold the charge button up to 3 seconds before it auto-goes.

[KamikOzzy]

I think he means actual speed of the charge, not time it takes to ready a charge, but fuck if I know cause I haven't played 1.2.

(warning:highly intoxicated)

[temple]

You can't chain tramples anymore.  I haven't figured out the exact cause and don't care to.  I do know that the code has a obvious 'f you' to anyone used to 1.1 with the delay between max charge and auto trample.  Its lame and prevents you from chain trampling (trample then immediately trample again).  Also, you can't trample, stop, and charge up another either.  You have to start over almost but I haven't figured out the exact formula.

I did find something amusing.  How can a goon or rant kill a node?  Rants and goons swipe so slow that you will killed by something before you can take it out.  Trampling a node is weird, I guess its possible but hard to tell.  Pouncing a node is just lame.  Dretches can't even damage nodes.  So, the classes that can reliably kill a node is a mara or basilisk. 

I started to use pounce more and I did see a big difference.  But I realized that I'd be far more deadly without it.  I'm just deadly with pounce because I've to be.   But chomp is on a 900 ms repeat, meaning basically can't chmomp more than once per second.  Yes.  Its 800 ms for advanced goon so I guess it all evens out. LOL

[KamikOzzy]

guys. I fucking love you. We're all trem players, we shouldn't fight I mean damn, 1.2 bad, 1.2 good, I don't even care. I'm just glad there are people like me that CARE. Jeez. Goodnight.

(yeah, you know.)

[UniqPhoeniX]

temple: you are very, very good at listing the same points multiple times to make them seem more important

Pounce
hits 1 person.   <-(lol?) this...
is less effective at range.   (<-yeah, right)
is negated heavily by armor.
takes a long time to charge.   <-...and this are the same. Also don't need full charge
you forgot knockback, which is an improvement

Chomping
Is faster (1.1)   <-...same thing...
Can do double damage for a head bite
Can hit multiple people(time wise vs pounce).   <-...oh look another 1
Scales against armor better (due to headchomps)
so you are saying goon gets more hits with chomp time wise. Chomping misses don't count as was already pointed out, which makes pounce seem a lot better

The only drawback to chomping is that it requires being close and a headshot to be deadly. But aiming a pounce is easier than aiming a headchomp. The only hard thing about pouncing is the delay and limitations of charging one. That's not a skill challenge, its a feature handicap. Its takes skill to headchomp. It doesn't take skill to hold and release a button.

The problem is that people have it in their heads that goons are too powerful, so instead of a flat nerf, an indirect nerf is presented. Pounce is buffed* but overall damage potential or dps of the class is lowered due to headchomp being slower (plus the human buffs). Goons are weaker, they just have a semi-overpowered feature.
goons ARE too powerful in 1.1 (1vs1 normal goon can win against any human incl. chainsuit with chomping), except against a very good dodger. Also chomping was a lot better then pounce. So chomping was nerfed, pounce buffed (too much?).
*which pounce was already powerful in stage 1   <-so was chomp, arguably even more so

[UniqPhoeniX]

Rants are weaker

The new trample is powerful. Powerful as hell. But lets talk about how a rant plays.

Drawbacks
Big
Slow   <-this
Can't jump   (<-can jump barely, but with some strafejumping can get away fast. Also irrelevant in battle)
Has to trample to move fast   <-and this (if you list them twice, this is an advantage)(likewise, goon needs pounce, mara needs jumping)

Advantages
Decent slash damage
Double damage on head shots
Can chain tramples consistently
Huge health

1.2 Changes
Huge health (that takes forever to regenerate)   <- Only -12.5% in 1.2. Don't regen during a fight, and shouldn't right outside human base. So that is a good change
Huge hitbox (which becomes a drawback due to the above point)   Not a "1.2 Change", so same as "Big". Again listing something many times?
Slower trample charge (which makes lack of jumping and speed worse)
Slower slash (which makes trampling into combat even more dangerous)

So what happens is you trample into combat, take a slash, and become a sitting duck. You can't just trample out, you can't just slash your way out. You just soak up hits. Rants feel more like goons, just with more hitpoints and less evasion. The lack of slash speed (and thus slash DPS) can never be substituted by having a powerful trample.
Don't trample into a fight alone if you can't win alone. Duh.

Humans have advantages that are intrinsic to the team. These are things that aliens can not do.
Humans can
Move and attack independently   What the hell? Aliens are MUCH more independent
Attack outside of their enemies' range   Aliens are much faster so they can just run, also they get to choose whether to fight at all or not
Easily attack in groups without damaging each other (focus fire)

Aliens can't attack and retreat at the same time. Since their attacks are melee ranged, and some are tied to a motion, alien attacks are dependent on their movement. But they can hit and THEN run like hell
An alien is always in a human's range when they attack But not in LoS unless they are dumb. Many situations allow humans to fight outside an alien's range.

The biggest advantage of all is the fact that group of humans can deal damage much easier than a group of aliens. Take any group of humans, place their backs to a wall, and they can deal more damage safely than aliens. Take any group of aliens and have them descend on a human. It is chaos. Aliens have to move to get in range but they can't move through each other. If 2 aliens are both in range of the human, then they are also in range of each other's attacks. Its a mess and takes way more coordination. This is the crowding problem of aliens

So all this talk about aliens requiring team work now is doubly handicapping them. Aliens have to overcome an intrinsic weakness to the team (crowding) to overcome the newly impossed weakness (nerfed regen/buffed humans/nerfed classes). By making aliens depend on a basilisk or more coordination to be effective, it forces them to cause more difficulty for each other later when they go to attack.

Hey, you would be very good at lobbying stupid governments! Do you live in USA by any chance? Also, learn to play aliens.
About your 3rd long post: Stats are the only way to really balance win/loss ratio, not just individual game mechanics. Dretches don't need to attack a group of humans alone, basi would have to be really dumb to do that, and maras can hit and run. But all of them would be dumb to attack from where humans have loooong LoS to. /share is not in official .qvm

[AppleJuice]

Temple,
I have the feeling numbers wouldn't convince you, so why don't I just show you in-game?

Jeez, I've just read some of your other posts, and if I did beforehand, I wouldn't have bothered replying. You don't know how to play Tremulous. Tyrants are not slow! Learn to strafe jump...
Also, rifles do NOT win against dretches "period." If so, please explain to my clan how we consistently kill the rifles of other clans with dretches with few deaths. You're making a grave mistake; you're confusing your own inability to play well with imbalance.

Anyway, let me prove it to you in-game; that's far easier than writing walls of text only a few people will read. Also,
http://stats.tremulous.net/tremstats/us1/player_details.php?player_id=78
http://stats.tremulous.net/tremstats/us1/player_details.php?player_id=1015

First of all, you didn't do too well (which could have other factors, ok). Second of all, you seem to have played a total of 8 games recently, and you think you can comment on balance? I've been playing 1.2 since August, and I've only recently decided to start commenting on it. Unless you have other IPs/aliases under which you play...do you?

I still can't believe you think rants and goon pouncing are slow...lol

Also, lol @ plague bringer for prematurely ejaculating

[NotYarou]

Pounce is dumb and let me spell it out for you.

Pounce

• hits 1 person.
• is less effective at range.
• is negated heavily by armor.
• takes a long time to charge.

Chomping

• Is faster (1.1)
• Can do double damage for a head bite
• Can hit multiple people(time wise vs pounce).
• Scales against armor better (due to headchomps)

The only drawback to chomping is that it requires being close and a headshot to be deadly.  But aiming a pounce is easier than aiming a headchomp.  The only hard thing about pouncing is the delay and limitations of charging one.  That's not a skill challenge, its a feature handicap.  Its takes skill to headchomp.  It doesn't take skill to hold and release a button.

The problem is that people have it in their heads that goons are too powerful, so instead of a flat nerf, an indirect nerf is presented. Pounce is buffed* but overall damage potential or dps of the class is lowered due to headchomp being slower (plus the human buffs).  Goons are weaker, they just have a semi-overpowered feature.  

*which pounce was already powerful in stage 1

You seem to be rather confused as to how the mechanics of 1.2 gameplay work (or 1.1 for that matter). AppleJuice has provided numbers and supported his claims; yet you continue to post patent nonsense without providing any evidence whatsoever. I am surprised, based on your previous posts, to know that you even play Tremulous at all (perhaps this is why your skill is so poor); an outsider who has barely been playing at all would talk of pounce being underpowered in 1.2 (rather, the focus in 1.2 is now for aliens to rely more on secondary attacks as opposed to 1.1). As for 1.1, the opinion of most who have been playing for 3+ years is that aliens have always been overpowered; because of s1 dragoon, as well as other factors such as regen (which have thankfully been fixed accordingly).

Rants are weaker

The new trample is powerful.  Powerful as hell. But lets talk about how a rant plays.

Drawbacks

• Big
• Slow
• Can't jump
• Has to trample to move fast

Advantages

• Decent slash damage
• Double damage on head shots
• Can chain tramples consistently
• Huge health

1.2 fucks up the advantages

1.2 Changes

• Huge health (that takes forever to regenerate)
• Huge hitbox (which becomes a drawback due to the above point)
• Slower trample charge (which makes lack of jumping and speed worse)
• Slower slash (which makes trampling into combat even more dangerous)

So what happens is you trample into combat, take a slash, and become a sitting duck.  You can't just trample out, you can't just slash your way out.  You just soak up hits.  Rants feel more like goons, just with more hitpoints and less evasion.   The lack of slash speed (and thus slash DPS) can never be substituted by having a powerful trample.

BBBBut....but aliens are supposed to work as a team now!!!!
I'll address this below

*******************************************************************
Humans have advantages that are intrinsic to the team.  These are things that aliens can not do.
Humans can

• Move and attack independently
• Attack outside of their enemies' range
• Easily attack in groups without damaging each other (focus fire)

Aliens can't attack and retreat at the same time.  Since their attacks are melee ranged, and some are tied to a motion, alien attacks are dependent on their movement. 
An alien is always in a human's range when they attack.  Many situations allow humans to fight outside an alien's range.

The biggest advantage of all is the fact that group of humans can deal damage much easier than a group of aliens.  Take any group of humans, place their backs to a wall, and they can deal more damage safely than aliens.  Take any group of aliens and have them descend on a human.  It is chaos.  Aliens have to move to get in range but they can't move through each other.  If 2 aliens are both in range of the human, then they are also in range of each other's attacks.  Its a mess and takes way more coordination.  This is the crowding problem of aliens

So all this talk about aliens requiring team work now is doubly handicapping them. Aliens have to overcome an intrinsic weakness to the team (crowding) to overcome the newly impossed weakness (nerfed regen/buffed humans/nerfed classes).  By making aliens depend on a basilisk or more coordination to be effective, it forces them to cause more difficulty for each other later when they go to attack. 

Again, rants are not weaker at all; you just have to focus on using secondary attacks, and if you do use primary attack, you simply need to adjust your aim looking down because of the new viewheight. The rant is not slower at all, because you can release charge early just for the purposes of escaping (when the bar is fully charged, instead of waiting for it to complete the trample attack). I am not sure why you say rant has huge health, I believe you are a bit confused about this as well, because rant's hp has been reduced to 350 (another welcome change), and relative to other alien classes off creep, tyrants have a faster regen (because of the percentages, discounting basilisk/advbasilisk as they are now meant to be forward healers). As for jumping, I am still able to strafe jump perfectly well in 1.2; there is the added benefit that I can now jump on top of people and squish them to death. The final point is that the tyrant is no slower nor bigger than it was in 1.1; it has simply been tweaked such that its role has been modified in games. The tyrant now cannot be used as aggressively, and it no longer emits a healing aura.

[Plague Bringer]

Again, rants are not weaker at all; you just have to focus on using secondary attacks, and if you do use primary attack, you simply need to adjust your aim looking down because of the new viewheight. The rant is not slower at all, because you can release charge early just for the purposes of escaping (when the bar is fully charged, instead of waiting for it to complete the trample attack). I am not sure why you say rant has huge health, I believe you are a bit confused about this as well, because rant's hp has been reduced to 350 (another welcome change), and relative to other alien classes off creep, tyrants have a faster regen (because of the percentages, discounting basilisk/advbasilisk as they are now meant to be forward healers). As for jumping, I am still able to strafe jump perfectly well in 1.2; there is the added benefit that I can now jump on top of people and squish them to death. The final point is that the tyrant is no slower nor bigger than it was in 1.1; it has simply been tweaked such that its role has been modified in games. The tyrant now cannot be used as aggressively, and it no longer emits a healing aura.

I find it quite obvious that temple was referring to the advantages of the 1.1 tyrant, as he specifically states that 1.2 fucks up those advantages.
The rant should be an aggressive class. It should, in fact, be the most aggressive class.

[AppleJuice]

Again, rants are not weaker at all; you just have to focus on using secondary attacks, and if you do use primary attack, you simply need to adjust your aim looking down because of the new viewheight. The rant is not slower at all, because you can release charge early just for the purposes of escaping (when the bar is fully charged, instead of waiting for it to complete the trample attack). I am not sure why you say rant has huge health, I believe you are a bit confused about this as well, because rant's hp has been reduced to 350 (another welcome change), and relative to other alien classes off creep, tyrants have a faster regen (because of the percentages, discounting basilisk/advbasilisk as they are now meant to be forward healers). As for jumping, I am still able to strafe jump perfectly well in 1.2; there is the added benefit that I can now jump on top of people and squish them to death. The final point is that the tyrant is no slower nor bigger than it was in 1.1; it has simply been tweaked such that its role has been modified in games. The tyrant now cannot be used as aggressively, and it no longer emits a healing aura.

I find it quite obvious that temple was referring to the advantages of the 1.1 tyrant, as he specifically states that 1.2 fucks up those advantages.
The rant should be an aggressive class. It should, in fact, be the most aggressive class.

1.2 Changes

    * Huge health (that takes forever to regenerate)

Tyrants are still very aggressive; they just require a different style of playing

[NotYarou]

Again, rants are not weaker at all; you just have to focus on using secondary attacks, and if you do use primary attack, you simply need to adjust your aim looking down because of the new viewheight. The rant is not slower at all, because you can release charge early just for the purposes of escaping (when the bar is fully charged, instead of waiting for it to complete the trample attack). I am not sure why you say rant has huge health, I believe you are a bit confused about this as well, because rant's hp has been reduced to 350 (another welcome change), and relative to other alien classes off creep, tyrants have a faster regen (because of the percentages, discounting basilisk/advbasilisk as they are now meant to be forward healers). As for jumping, I am still able to strafe jump perfectly well in 1.2; there is the added benefit that I can now jump on top of people and squish them to death. The final point is that the tyrant is no slower nor bigger than it was in 1.1; it has simply been tweaked such that its role has been modified in games. The tyrant now cannot be used as aggressively, and it no longer emits a healing aura.

I find it quite obvious that temple was referring to the advantages of the 1.1 tyrant, as he specifically states that 1.2 fucks up those advantages.
The rant should be an aggressive class. It should, in fact, be the most aggressive class.

I specifically stated that the role of tyrant has been changed. Also, as AppleJuice has pointed out, I was referring to temple stating that tyrant has huge health in 1.2. You can no longer blindly rush bases as tyrant by yourself; you need to have at least a semi-coordinated effort on the part of your team, with basilisks providing a forward healing aura, your grangers building forward bases, and advanced mara/advanced dragoon as necessary. The grownups are talking, please leave your rudimentary high school analytical thinking skills out of this discussion.

[temple]

I tried to spell it out for you and AppleJuice as simple as possible.  But you are still missing the point.  You really don't understand what worked in 1.1 and its makes talking to about 1.2 pointless.

Chomp has more utility than Pounce.
Trample was helpful due to its speed, not its damage.

Now 1.2 makes pounce and trample more damaging.  But that's not helpful in playing the goon or rant.  In fact, it makes playing them worse because the deficit of having a slower chomp or slash can not be compensated by a strong pounce or trample.  

I've already explained why.  Tired to repeating the same thing to you.  
***********************************************************************
For the record, the trample is slower overall. It no longer auto tramples when fulling charged (its coded to wait 2 whole seconds after a full charge before firing).  Trample also can not be chained as quickly as in 1.1.  There is delay when stopping and restarting trample that's longer than 1.1.  Yes, you can half charge but a half trample does not cover nearly enough distance to compensate for the change.  
************************************************************************
And another thing, unless you are on Dracone or Anger skill level, I'm pretty confident you are no where near my skill level.  I'm absolutely confident because I've never even heard of AppleJuice.  But I play DS, AA, and Official 1.2; so we can clear up any questions you have of my skill.

[AppleJuice]

You keep sinking to new lows.

I've 1v1ed both St. Anger and Dracone, and our 1v1s are very even. In fact, they're in my clan, so we play together all the time (though St. Anger is inactive).
If you play on North American servers and are involved in the skilled community and haven't heard of me, then you're a noob. There's no debating that. I've been heavily involved in the best clans since 2007. Who the fuck are you? No one I know has really heard of you or seen you in-game save for a few times.

Also, your in-game name is ScottFree, right? Are you freaking kidding? You're a terrible player...you're no where near amz181's level, let alone mine, and that is a fact.
http://stats.tremulous.net/tremstats/us1/player_details.php?player_id=78 - terrible
http://stats.tremulous.net/tremstats/us1/player_details.php?player_id=1015 - terrible

You probably haven't seen me playing because I always use aliases, but I always let the good players know who I am. Obviously, you weren't one of them, ScottFree.

Anyway, talk is useless. Why don't we have a public 1v1? You're no where near my skill level (not that I even give a fuck), so it should be pretty quick. {&} has a 1.2 server available.

******************************

On topic:

You don't know how to pounce. You don't know how to strafe jump with a tyrant. Of course 1.1 chomping was better than 1.1 pouncing. There's no debating that. 1.2 pouncing, however, is at LEAST equal to 1.1 chomping - it depends on the situation. I also don't feel like repeating myself, but that's because you're an utter noob who doesn't know how to play, not because I've run out of logical arguments (like you have).

Again, this is why awful players should not comment on balance. Lack of skill != imbalance



1v1 me.
Scrim me.
I don't care.
Since you're "absolutely confident," there shouldn't be a problem, right? I've always supported my words with in-game play (see grudge match) - you haven't.




(@Everyone else: Sorry for the outburst, but this guy's retarded)

[kevlarman]

are you seriously arguing that giving you more control over when trample goes off is a bad thing?

[NotYarou]

I tried to spell it out for you and AppleJuice as simple as possible.  But you are still missing the point.  You really don't understand what worked in 1.1 and its makes talking to about 1.2 pointless.

Chomp has more utility than Pounce.
Trample was helpful due to its speed, not its damage.

Now 1.2 makes pounce and trample more damaging.  But that's not helpful in playing the goon or rant.  In fact, it makes playing them worse because the deficit of having a slower chomp or slash can not be compensated by a strong pounce or trample.  

I've already explained why.  Tired to repeating the same thing to you.  
***********************************************************************
For the record, the trample is slower overall. It no longer auto tramples when fulling charged (its coded to wait 2 whole seconds after a full charge before firing).  Trample also can not be chained as quickly as in 1.1.  There is delay when stopping and restarting trample that's longer than 1.1.  Yes, you can half charge but a half trample does not cover nearly enough distance to compensate for the change.  
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And another thing, unless you are on Dracone or Anger skill level, I'm pretty confident you are no where near my skill level.  I'm absolutely confident because I've never even heard of AppleJuice.  But I play DS, AA, and Official 1.2; so we can clear up any questions you have of my skill.

Calm down Al Sharpton.
We (the elite tremulous playerbase) know who AppleJuice is; conversely we have no idea who you even are (except from a casual comment by Dracone that you are terrible + the statistics AppleJuice has posted).

[temple]

You can't chain them as fast you could in 1.1.  

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Apple Juice
I had to re-download and reinstall the client.  So my stats are off.  And I didn't backport or copy the key.  Because anyone that pulls up stats is automatically a loser.  Anyone that brings up 1vs1 in tremulous is a loser, also.  But right, you play on an 'alias' so noone knows you unless you pm them.  How pro of you.  

But I just want to you to understand how lame you sound, its clear to me already when you quoted a decommissioned line of code as 'proof'.  Not only that, but don't understand that goon's were changed so you can't just compare 1.1 and 1.2 .h files.

Strafe jumping and the such isn't news and its funny you think that's some kind of 'gotcha'.  Stafe jumping or bunny hopping makes chomping better, not pounce or trample.  Keep talking out your ass and I will end up 1vs1'ing you.  And then you can talk about how they don't matter.  

[AppleJuice]

You can't chain them as fast you could in 1.1.  

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Apple Juice
I had to re-download and reinstall the client.  So my stats are off.  And I didn't backport or copy the key.  Because anyone that pulls up stats is automatically a loser.  Anyone that brings up 1vs1 in tremulous is a loser, also.  But right, you play on an 'alias' so noone knows you unless you pm them.  How pro of you.  

But I just want to you to understand how lame you sound, its clear to me already when you quoted a decommissioned line of code as 'proof'.  Not only that, but don't understand that goon's were changed so you can't just compare 1.1 and 1.2 .h files.

Strafe jumping and the such isn't news and its funny you think that's some kind of 'gotcha'.  Stafe jumping or bunny hopping makes chomping better, not pounce or trample.  Keep talking out your ass and I will end up 1vs1'ing you.  And then you can talk about how they don't matter.  

Learn to read. I never said strafe jumping helps pounce/trample (though it can affect pounce if you know how to). I said it made tyrants fast; without charge, you can simply strafe jump to go quickly, rather than wait for another charge.

I know stats are stupid, to a certain extent. However, I've actually seen you play on AA, and you suck. You also have feeder stats; 1:1 is ok, but less than that is pretty nooby, regardless of aggression. I'm a very aggressive player, and I don't get that.

1v1s suck, yes, if you do them incorrectly. I'm talking about a devmapped 1v1 with no building, one class against another (goon vs s2, goon vs s3, rifle vs mara, etc.). If you were a part of the skilled NA community (which you are obviously not), you would know that most of us use these to determine skill (along with scrims).

I'm also not running from a 1v1; in fact, I'm ASKING you for one. And regardless of who wins (I definitely will), they do mean something.

[kevlarman]

if this is just going to turn into a pissing contest between you two, take it to PMs