Decision 2009: 1.2 Balance

[Norfenstein]

I've been meaning to reply to this thread for a week now and find I still don't have the time for a full response. So here's a partial one re: stamina. I hope you like text.

I'm okay with reducing sprinting's drain on stamina.

Awesome. How are you going to choose new values? I'd like to be there to test it, if possible.

Well since you asked, I started out by considering these things:

• People are comparing it to the 50% reduction light armour provided in 1.1
• You didn't get that bonus with no armour or battlesuits (and any change I make will affect all humans)
• Having stamina at all is pointless if you never run out of it, and I think it was rare to run out of stamina in 1.1 from sprinting alone
• Jumping now takes half as much stamina as it did in 1.1
• From my experience playing: when I die fighting a goon because of stamina, it's usually only by one or two more dodge's worth of stamina

Given the first four reasons above I wasn't inclined to go lower than 50%, and since STAMINA_SPRINT_TAKE is a small integer ( 8 ) I could only really go with 4, 5, 6, or 7 without rearranging a lot of other things, which I would want a good reason to do. And so given the last reason, I started out by trying to determine how much it would have to be lowered to provide one or two jumps worth of stamina. This is when I realized that, even though you don't begin slowing down until -500 stamina (1000 is the max, -1000 is total blackout), you can't jump or dodge below 0. This lined up sensibly when jumping took 500 stamina, but I don't see a reason why the limit shouldn't be based on the cost of jumping/dodging and the point at which you start slowing down. So that can change to give you the option of jumping/dodging one more time instead of sprinting.

And since I was messing with this, I also wanted to figure out if it's more efficient to walk after sprinting, or to stop entirely before beginning again. Turns out that neither is better than just jogging normally. Now, walking moves you 160 units per second and restores 150 stamina per second, sprinting moves you 384 units per second and takes 80 stamina per second (stamina is "ticked" every 100 milliseconds), and standing still restores 250 stamina per second. If STAMINA_SPRINT_TAKE is lowered to 6 than a cycle of sprinting and walking becomes equivalent to jogging (that is, your average speed over the same length of time is 320 units per second for both). If the stamina restored per second while not moving is raised to 300 then sprinting plus stopping also becomes equivalent to jogging. And it so happens that when STAMINA_SPRINT_TAKE is 6 you can run for the same length of time as when it is 8 and have leftover 375 stamina -- enough for one and a half more jumps or dodges.

So maybe we'll find out after playtesting that it should still be lower (this isn't the time for drastic changes), but for the next GPP phase I'm considering the following:

• reduce sprinting's drain on stamina 8 -> 6
• change the stamina threshold for jumping and dodging to the slowing threshold (-500) plus the cost of jumping or dodging (250 for both)
• raise the stamina restoration rate for standing 25 -> 30

[StevenM]

me likey.

[AppleJuice]

Ok, that sounds very well reasoned. I agree that there was probably a bit too much stamina in 1.1; 6 will be interesting to test.

Also, interesting info about the sprint+walk/sprint+stop = jogging! I'm going to alter a few things in my human play style because of this.

Thanks.

[Norfenstein]

For comparison, if my math is right: sprinting + walking averages out to be equivalent to a speed of about 306, sprinting + standing to about 290. The normal jogging speed is 320.

[AppleJuice]

What are the lengths of your cycles for sprinting and walking/standing? When I used 1 second for walking and 2 seconds for sprinting, and assumed I started from 0 stamina and stopped at -10, sprinting + walking gave me an average of ~309, but you probably used different cycle lengths, right?

[Norfenstein]

What are the lengths of your cycles for sprinting and walking/standing? When I used 1 second for walking and 2 seconds for sprinting, and assumed I started from 0 stamina and stopped at -10, sprinting + walking gave me an average of ~309, but you probably used different cycle lengths, right?

It doesn't matter the overall time, just that you walk/stand for long enough to regain the stamina lost from sprinting.

In one second you can walk 160 units while regaining 150 stamina. To lose an equivalent amount of stamina from sprinting, you would move an additional 720 units (150 / 80 * 384) over 1.875 seconds. So in 2.875 seconds you would move 880 units and have a net loss of 0 stamina. 880 / 2.875 = 306.086956522

Likewise,
250 / 80 = 3.125
3.125 * 384 = 1200
1200 / (1 + 3.125) = 290.909090909

[AppleJuice]

Ah, that's why. I forgot stamina was ticked every 100 mil. Good to know (and unexpected).

[Caffeine]

stam isn't a terrible problem for me i don't sprint unless i'm chasing or fleeing

I'm much better at the new marauder than the old one, can't quite explain why.

Goon chomp is HORRIBLY difficult for me to get used to for some reason, because the range is so short and the width is lower... it makes it vastly easier to dodge and therefore i'd just tend to pounce instead this seems so very unnatural to me though and so i'm stuck with this sort of dislike for being a goon now i'd rather risk getting killed as a marauder than try to be a dragoon. I'm fine with the width reduction though, just makes me be more accurate.

The range though... D: that seems to be the killer. For me, if the human is closer, he's harder to track and therefore more difficult to hit IF he stays in that short range which... it seems like the goon is no longer worth the three evos it costs

I don't like pouncing being my main damage source it just seems like it's supposed to be more of a mobility thing, and if you happen to hit them with pounce when you use it to close distance it's a nice bonus... maybe i'm just picky?

[frazzler]

I'm okay with reducing sprinting's drain on stamina.

I <3 the way the devs just agree with whatever we tell them, and yet 1.2 is still horrible imo.

[Caffeine]

I just want chomp to be brought back as the main damage dealing ability of the dragoon. I think it took more skill. Now that I'm used to pounce I'm seeing what Applejuice was saying about it being overpowered. It is... it's far to easy to kill helmeted humans now. Although a little harder to kill the ones without helmets.

[Plague Bringer]

I just want chomp to be brought back as the main damage dealing ability of the dragoon. I think it took more skill. Now that I'm used to pounce I'm seeing what Applejuice was saying about it being overpowered. It is... it's far to easy to kill helmeted humans now. Although a little harder to kill the ones without helmets.

Pounce I'm not so razzed about. It's secondary to chomp, yes, but the goon's specialty skill is the barb, just like the basi's is gas, the mara's is zap, and the tyrant's.. Well, the tyrant doesn't have a specialty skill. I'm annoyed that for the goon and the rant, the rmb attack is used primarily as.. Well.. Their primary, but, what does it really matter? I do think, though, that the rant should have a third attack. Since healing aura's been moved to the basilisk, it's a relatively boring class. Basis can grab, gas, and heal, maras can walljump and zap, goons can pounce and snipe, but what can rants do? Trample.

I was reading another thread about having specialty skills for aliens. This'd be rather gimmicky, I suppose, but what if the tyrant had an "attack" similar to the basilisk's gas? Perhaps, just a roar that deafens all humans within earshot? Something like that could only be used in special situations, but I think it'd be interesting, and a way to better vary the tyrant again.

[MitSugna]

what is the secondary skill of the dretch?

[Plague Bringer]

what is the secondary skill of the dretch?

Doesn't need one, as it's the beginning class.

[Conzul]

I've always thought the dretch should have a secondary, namely, a brief speedboost like a halo3 wraith tank. Good for closing distance down a corridor towards humans, and would (with practice) throw of those pesky mdcampers that harvest dretches at range with their eyes closed.

[FreaK]

I just want chomp to be brought back as the main damage dealing ability of the dragoon. I think it took more skill. Now that I'm used to pounce I'm seeing what Applejuice was saying about it being overpowered. It is... it's far to easy to kill helmeted humans now. Although a little harder to kill the ones without helmets.

Pounce I'm not so razzed about. It's secondary to chomp, yes, but the goon's specialty skill is the barb, just like the basi's is gas, the mara's is zap, and the tyrant's.. Well, the tyrant doesn't have a specialty skill. I'm annoyed that for the goon and the rant, the rmb attack is used primarily as.. Well.. Their primary, but, what does it really matter? I do think, though, that the rant should have a third attack. Since healing aura's been moved to the basilisk, it's a relatively boring class. Basis can grab, gas, and heal, maras can walljump and zap, goons can pounce and snipe, but what can rants do? Trample.

I was reading another thread about having specialty skills for aliens. This'd be rather gimmicky, I suppose, but what if the tyrant had an "attack" similar to the basilisk's gas? Perhaps, just a roar that deafens all humans within earshot? Something like that could only be used in special situations, but I think it'd be interesting, and a way to better vary the tyrant again.

Rants can also crush!

[Plague Bringer]

I just want chomp to be brought back as the main damage dealing ability of the dragoon. I think it took more skill. Now that I'm used to pounce I'm seeing what Applejuice was saying about it being overpowered. It is... it's far to easy to kill helmeted humans now. Although a little harder to kill the ones without helmets.

Pounce I'm not so razzed about. It's secondary to chomp, yes, but the goon's specialty skill is the barb, just like the basi's is gas, the mara's is zap, and the tyrant's.. Well, the tyrant doesn't have a specialty skill. I'm annoyed that for the goon and the rant, the rmb attack is used primarily as.. Well.. Their primary, but, what does it really matter? I do think, though, that the rant should have a third attack. Since healing aura's been moved to the basilisk, it's a relatively boring class. Basis can grab, gas, and heal, maras can walljump and zap, goons can pounce and snipe, but what can rants do? Trample.

I was reading another thread about having specialty skills for aliens. This'd be rather gimmicky, I suppose, but what if the tyrant had an "attack" similar to the basilisk's gas? Perhaps, just a roar that deafens all humans within earshot? Something like that could only be used in special situations, but I think it'd be interesting, and a way to better vary the tyrant again.

Rants can also crush!

I think that's a bit more gimmicky and situation oriented than my suggestion. 

[frazzler]

maths are FUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!      Until your head implodes and you go play trem.

Although with an imploded head it may be difficult.

Ehh, I'll just go x server then.