Aliens need something new.

[Caffeine]

Please note that i'm not saying "ZOMG REMOTE CONTROL INVINCIBLE FLYING DRETCHES"

The new turrets do not prevent/discourage camping as they were intended, I would argue they make it even easier when they're set up correctly. Double range, and 30% more damage negates the spin up and slower tracking speed. It's just a different layout to allow camping. The advanced goon isn't tough enough to get many shots off, and in larger games they are killed by human defenders before they can take down even one ret...

The idea for a new alien class with a remote attack seems very nice.
Partially stole this idea from The Me, but provided more detail and voiced more thought.

Swarmer:

An alien class intended for base siege, evolved while waiting more than 100 years for humans to leave their base:

Remote control swarm attack, similar to what comes out of the hive, is similar to controlling a flying dretch in terms of you point it towards the enemy and attempt to run it into them, only you don't have to be facing them... since you're a cloud of bugs that is facing every direction

It would need to be a weak attack taking several seconds to kill but should kill even if they're standing on the medistation. It is guided by the player so it takes some skill to use. Of course only one swarm can be used at a time. Click the alt fire to abandon the swarm and "return" to your body. The swarm moves quickly, about as fast as human run speed, not as fast as sprint. There is no defense against the swarm, and it bypasses armor/helm/bsuit. It should not damage buildings. It needs to have enough range to have the class be in cover, but able to reach the human base. Something like this would not give the aliens a huge advantage as much as it would be annoying and make humans come out to kill the offending class, but not be a serious threat as it can only really be used to defend the alien base, or assault campers, it would be suicide to use it for anything else. Make it expensive, 7 evos which is about as much as a battpack+luci+gren+helm+larmour. Make the class itself have lower health, say around 200, it should be as slow as a tyrant and with a non damaging "charge" for escape only, can't wallclimb but has a small size, about the size of a marauder. Give it a weak close range attack so one naked rifle can't kill it TOO easily.

Essentially if we visualize it being used in a map like atcs/karith/niveus/nexus/nano ect. it'd be out of the line of fire, around a corner somewhere close to the human base protected and supported by other aliens, it's suicide to use it alone to attack. It's moderately effective to use against attacking humans while sitting in the alien base, but does not have a long enough range to attack while sitting in the base... i'd estimate a useful range, if it's sitting in the hall right outside the exit of the human base in atcs, around the first corner at the top of both ramps, it can reach where the RC is... keep in mind it isn't damaging to buildings at all, and humans could still dodge it if they were really active about it... it's more of a pain in the ass then a deadly attack. Some ammount of camping is fine, but if you're camping enough to make the aliens risk using this expensive, ineffective class against you you're camping too much

I would appreciate any feedback, and would gladly help to conceptualize the class further if it seems like an idea worth trying.

[Paradox]

Actually not a bad idea. Cruise/TOW missile kind of idea. It would have to have a limited range and lifetime too. If it takes 5 seconds to kill a human, the longest it should last is 15 seconds. And for regen, perhaps 30 second regen?

Wallclimb should be a feature, and it should have weak health. About that of a basi, perhaps a little more (100?)

This brings to mind the flood stalkers from Halo 3, at least the ranged form.

[Caffeine]

All right
If other people also like this idea, we need more details.
It's weak, but if it only has 100 hp, the actual alien it will need to be a little faster, about the speed of a walking mara or basi?
Does it have charges like spines or just a cooldown between launches?
More details will be needed obviously

How can we implement this for testing?

I would be happy to either come up with basic concept art and my girlfriend (or someone else) can make it pretty
Or we could sort of borrow the design of the flood stalkers, and even have it "deploy" similarly to that.
I could try to help with numbers and/or testing. I have very little knowledge of coding, but am willing to try to learn. I'd love to help test this. I've always liked the idea of remote attacks to flush out campers.

[Paradox]

The deploy and legs of the stalkers look pretty good. But since this is a hive, we wouldn't need spears, just holes for the swarms to come out of. Unless spears were to replace the "beez" idea.

 The tentacles, and the flood bits cant be put in, as this is not flood (and there is some issue of a copyright), but for the most part, the deploy would be pretty good. Just have it curled up when it moves around, and then when it opens up, it deploys.

It would obviously have to look more tremmish, less floodish. Limbs that look normal, body that doesn't look like its rotting away. Perhaps a mixture between the dretch and granger colors (natural camo pattern?).

Ill see if i can draw something up in illustrator tomorrow

[Minimum]

Okay, on a server I often play on everybody had an issue with this one guy who for 7 hours on end, as adv basilisk, just gassed the human base and then wallwalked away across the roof. DO NOT make it like that, there were about 3 threads on our forums complaining about this guy, and some wanting to ban him for 'Gas Trolling' (Hitler style). And it didn't really stop camping, at all. You need to make it cleverer than this, I'd imagine everyone would go this class when humans start to camp. You say 'One of them would take a few seconds to kill', well then 5 of them could decimate the entire human team in a few seconds. Its a good idea, just be careful to not OP it and make it counter-productive on the camp-scale.

EDIT: For example, its 'non-bee' form should be large and slow... not basilisk sized, imho. But don't take it too far or this could be the equivalent of battle grangers, I.E, a feed machine.

EDIT/2: I'd be willing to make a model. Imagine some diminutive but strong (Kinda like a rhino, y'know) alien with hives actually GROWING on its back.

[Caffeine]

Yes i'll also see if I can draw something up tonight. Yeah when i say "borrow" the stalker, more take the concept of it curling and uncurling or shifting shapes to deploy/pack up, I didn't mean just copy/paste the flood into trem

I sort of picture it about the size of a basi, but fatter... like if you gave basi a granger butt that could sort of... unfurl? Put some holes in it, and mixed up the colors a bit. BOOM! Call it a swarmer. Takes care of hardcore campers at S3

Edit: I would say that since it's got less hp, and is weak at anything but anti-camp, and is really expensive making it a huge feed if it's not defended by other aliens, and since they can't really defend themselves effectively it won't be OP.

If your whole team evolves into one you'll kill the human team one time, and then give them all appx 9999 credits for each "swarmer" that dies... making it a retarded idea. I can see it now... "hur dur, lets all be swarmers"
*whole alien team dies, getting 1-3 evos each*
*whole human team comes back with chainsuits, and lcannon*
*alien team loses*
gg

Think about how easy it is to dodge the swarms out of the hives, and then apply that to the swarmer and nerf the damage... it'll be useless to defend itself.

[UniqPhoeniX]

Such a class could also be used to camp. And with such an attack, 2-3 of those with a rant or 2 guarding could easily defend themselves.
You can instead solve camping by giving funds for map control. The team that only camps in their base barely gets anything, while the other team could get enough to rush almost constantly.

[Caffeine]

How does this change from camping with three rants though? All a human needs to do is pop into the base, waste a clip on the swarmer and boom, he's got enough for a luci and helm/larmour.

A skillful human could evade the swarm on the way in, or just take one hit from it, it's only going to do 15-20 damage per second and be slow enough that a smart human will only take one hit, if any from a defending swarmer. It would be harder to keep constantly running around your own base, and not come out where another alien could kill you.

It would be more difficult to use the swarmer to camp as people can easily dodge them coming into the base, and damage isn't high. Aliens don't generally have a camping problem anyway, it's almost always the humans.

The way I conceptualize it they will make poor defenders, and it will be a terrible idea to use them for anything other than anti-camp.

Also @ minimum's hitler basi... why didn't someone just MD him or chase him down? Gas has no power to kill campers... this class is designed to kill campers.

[UniqPhoeniX]

Try dodging a rant and a couple of swarms at the same time. Or kill a rant after being weakened by those. Rants can't easily fight together because of their size, but swarms are small. Human controlled swarms would probably hit more often as well.

[Minimum]

Also @ minimum's hitler basi... why didn't someone just MD him or chase him down? Gas has no power to kill campers... this class is designed to kill campers.

I don't know, I only played once on the alien team that day, but this guy dodged so well he only died about 10 times in 7 hours, apparently.

Also, this midly annoyed campers. And gas is a pretty weak power, imagine what a souped-up version (AKA Your idea) could do. Make it optional/a mod/in the next version of TremX and I'm all for it.

[Conzul]

I think trem is balanced enough that it could do without this, but if you worked it enough it wouldn't hurt. Also, I would be careful to not just paste hives onto it (as they look now), but find a newer smaller look. Oh and the swarm should be able to noclip through friendly aliens. If you take a hint from the guided rockets of SW:Battlefront II, you should make it so that the guide can give the swarm a small speed boost at the expense of swarm lifetime, in case its base movement is too slow for an experienced human. The thing costs 7 evos after all...

[Caffeine]

With all the buffs, and how much easier it is to be a lone rambo human.

But for humans, teamwork is even more powerful than before.

The aliens have a disadvantage in that, humans can run around willy nilly without any sort of real coordination. A group of two shottys can kill even the best tyrant with the new dodge, all it takes is moderate aim, and a small amount of skill. It makes a good human player harder than hell to hit. The chaingun has better range and less kickback/recoil. The list of things that make humans easier to play goes on and on... I was a moderate human player in 1.1 and suddenly i can kill goons MOST of the time with shotty.

Goons have gotten harder to use, and have to be point blank to do any damage. Tyrants are no longer as good at baserush. The new mara zap is nice but it doesn't compensate for the shiny new mechanics humans got, namely dodge. The new turret range and power lets humans camp even more effectively if the base is set up correctly. I'd say everything else is old hat for aliens, they haven't gotten anything new and cool like the dodge. Humans have always had more shiny toys, and more versatility than aliens. The "new" things for aliens are really not new at all they're just adjustments, and fixes. IMO the goon spines aren't that much better, mara zap always should have worked that way and the tyrant rush is more "fixed" than buffed. Heal auras aren't new it's just a switch of class that has it.

For example: two sentances.

I like pie greatly, but the cake is a lie.

The cake is a lie, but I like pie greatly.

It's not a new sentence it's just rearranged. Aliens need something shiny and new to play with.
I happen to think that it should be something to counteract the superior human defenses when they decide "hur dur, aliens can't get us in here"

[Paradox]

Might i make a point. When this thing is deployed, it should be fairly weak, as in perhaps 40 health when deployed. But when curled up, it could go up to 140 or above, if it moves slowly.

The anatomical reasoning for this could be quite simple. When folded up, it has natural armor plating that covers it. When expanded, the front is left exposed, and naturally weakens it. And 40 hp is nothing much. Considering it would have no close-range attack, the high damage on flee makes sense.

When expanded, it should be able to move, albeit slowly. Very slowly. Like walking human slow. When contracted, it should move at a moderate speed, walking auder perhaps?

Finally, the secondary attack would be the transition between expanded and contracted. Ie you get to your desired location, click the secondary button, and the thing makes a sound as it uncurls. It then shoots off its stuff with the primary attack button.

If it does have any attack when its closed, it would have to be something weak or almost useless, like it could slow humans for a second or take away their jump stamina.

[UniqPhoeniX]

This class would also be unbeatable through vents, like karith elevator room, or perhaps even arachnid vents, (some custom maps like sectorb17 have very extreme cases). Which means aliens need to defend less entrances, if any.

[Caffeine]

How would this class make the karith elevator room any harder to get in than compared to two human turrets set outside that vent?

I just dev'd it to make sure, but if you correctly place two turrets, staggered so that they can both fire down the vent it is impossible for any class that can get through the vent, to get to those turrets and even damage them...

How is it fair that alien defenses can never be set up to do that? A human with a Lcannon can ALWAYS damage defenses set up around that vent.

This wouldn't even completely even the odds, as a player would have to be dedicated to the defense of the vent, AND the way we're talking about setting up this class it would not be impossible for a human to get through the vent, just difficult... It would take TWO players to keep a swarm in the vent constantly... wasting two players, dedicated ONLY to defending the vent would be stupid of any team willing to do it unless the skill gap was significant.

[Caffeine]

Can this be put as sticky and have a poll assigned to it to get a sort of general opinion as to whether people would be willing to attempt testing on this or not?
I can't say that I can code this, or that I would be able to provide any (good) concept art or model it. I would love to help test though, and am available for hours on end of getting my ass kicked on either side of this class

[mooseberry]

#2


Hi player1. 

[Caffeine]

 
Indeed #2
I am new here D:
But how would I create a poll for this at least? Or do mods have to do that?

[mooseberry]

I don't know if you can change your topic into a poll or not, but if you started a new topic as a poll you could do that. Although to be honest I don't think you need to. If someone wants to vote on something they could just post it, frankly I don't know how many people have read this thread through. But it's your choice if you want to.

[Caffeine]

Well i just downloaded wings3D for my mac i'll give that a go, put some preliminary stuff up and then maybe start a poll... in the meantime I'd like people to give more input as to whether (if it were to not disrupt balance) this would be acceptable to add a new alien class costing about 7 evos to match the "i'ma luci battpack larmourhelm human with a grenade" which is approximately equal in my mind, somehow. I can't fully explain the concept without showing it somehow.

[Paradox]

Unfortunately with SMF, you cannot add a poll to a topic. With more modern software (cough bbpress) you can add polls to every post, if the admin enables it

[Regulus]

The swarmer idea seems a cool but inefficient. I'd prefer something more boring yet practical.

Something more like: An alien with a size between a marauder and a dragoon, the speed of a Granger, and the ability to wall walk. Primary attack would be a needle barrage that has to charge like pounce or a Lucifer cannon. More charge means more needles. It should do enough damage to kill a machine-gun turret in 2 and a half barrages. The secondary attack would be a normal melee, as powerful as a marauders claw but with a slower rate of fire. Give it about 100 health, and make it cost 3 or 4 evos. It's primary role would be to soften humans up for larger aliens, and to harass humans from afar. A sprinting human would be able to catch up with it and kill it easily if it has no one to support it.

The swarmer seems to be a bit too complicated and expensive for what it's supposed to do. Plus this needle-shooting alien would be easier to use than a dragoon, for those who had just started to play alien.

Realistically though, I doubt they'll add a new class of any kind, because of the amount of work needed to do it. It would need to be modelled, skinned,and animated, and afterwards they'd need to test it for balance. I don't think the tremulous developer team has the manpower available. Also, buffing the aliens we currently have can probably make the game balanced with much less work.

[Conzul]

The swarmer idea seems a cool but inefficient. I'd prefer something more boring yet practical.

Something more like: An alien with a size between a marauder and a dragoon, the speed of a Granger, and the ability to wall walk. Primary attack would be a needle barrage that has to charge like pounce or a Lucifer cannon. More charge means more needles. It should do enough damage to kill a machine-gun turret in 2 and a half barrages. The secondary attack would be a normal melee, as powerful as a marauders claw but with a slower rate of fire. Give it about 100 health, and make it cost 3 or 4 evos. It's primary role would be to soften humans up for larger aliens, and to harass humans from afar. A sprinting human would be able to catch up with it and kill it easily if it has no one to support it.

The swarmer seems to be a bit too complicated and expensive for what it's supposed to do. Plus this needle-shooting alien would be easier to use than a dragoon, for those who had just started to play alien.

Realistically though, I doubt they'll add a new class of any kind, because of the amount of work needed to do it. It would need to be modelled, skinned,and animated, and afterwards they'd need to test it for balance. I don't think the tremulous developer team has the manpower available. Also, buffing the aliens we currently have can probably make the game balanced with much less work.

1. Ease of use doesn't matter, beginners wouldn't have the skill needed to accumulate the # of evos to buy this thing.

2. The point is not to damage structures, this is purely an anti-camping class, to break the late stage stalemates that happen on almost every map. Needles or darts are too idiom-breaking, like something the human team would have. A guidable swarm of insects is more toward the aliens.

3. Developer manpower pfffft, I could model, animate, export something like this within a day (I'm not too good at skinning/texturing though). I think the Swarmer is the first good idea in a long line of bad ones...

[Kiwi]

Didn't the murauder zap get a huge buff along with the basi?  Is that not enough

[Plague Bringer]

1. Ease of use doesn't matter, beginners wouldn't have the skill needed to accumulate the # of evos to buy this thing.

2. The point is not to damage structures, this is purely an anti-camping class, to break the late stage stalemates that happen on almost every map. Needles or darts are too idiom-breaking, like something the human team would have. A guidable swarm of insects is more toward the aliens.

3. Developer manpower pfffft, I could model, animate, export something like this within a day (I'm not too good at skinning/texturing though). I think the Swarmer is the first good idea in a long line of bad ones...

Get a better team or whore feeders for +mara or +goon and spam /callvote sudden_death.

[Regulus]

A needle shooting Alien would prevent camping on the Human part, if they don't leave the base to kill it, it can continue to wear the base down to nothing. Also, the needles would be much more effective against people sitting around in a group than actively trying to kill it.

One of the reasons the alien team loses often on Pubs is because aliens are generally more difficult/takes more practice than humans to play competently. Adding a class that newer players can play competently would probably increase their enjoyment of the game.

Still, 2 skilled advanced marauders can destroy most human bases and get kills from the chain effect. As long as they can keep up the pressure for a while, and keep the humans in their base, the humans are screwed. A new alien class would be cool, but isn't really needed.

[kozak6]

It is a lot of work to model, skin, and animate a brand new alien.

Since it looks like the hovel is going to be removed for 1.2 anyways, it could be repurposed to launch such a controllable swarm instead.

[Stunt]

How about THE HOVELER

It's a new class that encases itself in a thick bulletproof shell and slowly crawls across the ground, steadily approaching the human base, to kamikaze itself and unleash a fearsome splash of poisonous acid! (Dealing 18 damage plus 20 damage over five seconds.)

It costs 2 evos. It can wallwalk.

Here's some concept art I threw together so you can get an idea. This is what you would see as it slowly approaches to puke acid on you:



 





_

[UniqPhoeniX]

Another problem with the ideas that force humans to come 10m out of base is that they can go straight back after the alien is dead/gone. The humans can easily survive considering how close their base is. Increasing the range worsens the next problem:
In some maps/base locations, such a class could attack from safety, on a ledge for example, and humans would have to take the long way or use jets (which can easily be taken down by swarms).

[Caffeine]

Reason 1 is why the swarmer needs support, a tyrant or at least a goon to protect it (in a 5v5) and give it time to pack up and get away. The second problem is exactly why the swarmer has that range... if it's within easy shooting distance that completely negates the reason for giving it range in the first place. If the humans force the aliens to use this class it should be VERY annoying to kill it. It will be exactly like a jetcamper in the top of ATCS accept much more costly.

It's hard to kill but there's not MUCH danger of it killing you if you're smart about it.

People need to play more intelligently than they do... sometimes i swear 90% of people are randomly running around the official server maps and don't realize that bases need to be killed.

I am currently working on a model in Wings3D but I'm just learning the program so it may be a little while before it's satisfactory. If someone else can/will get it done more quickly I certainly won't cry about it. If they want to animate/skin/code it that would be cool too. I don't care how it looks, just that it follows the developers guidelines set out for it, and looks like it belongs on the alien team, and doesn't change from the original concept too much.