My 1.2 impressions

[Meisseli]

Why are humans broken in your opinion?´

As I said, the humans are broken by way of the aliens' nerfing:

An s1 human using an MG can now kill a dretch 4 times faster than it takes for a dretch to kill that same naked human, etc. etc.

You can find all of my arguments against the nerfing of aliens in the most of the previous users' posts, which is why I didn't think that what I was saying required much reiteration.

...But here's some anyway.

4x <  


P.S.
Sorry about the double posting. It's late and my head hurts from dodging lucy-spam.

Excuse me, what? First you say that aliens have been nerfed too much, then you imply that a single dretch is better than 4 humans? Which one now is it?

[Venkman]

I agree that I might just need to play more 1.2, considering I was SO used to playing 1.1 Mara and now it can't help but feel a bit awkward when half of my attacks aren't landing.

The thing about a game like Trem is it's all about the balance: Lucy must be balanced against Rant, S2 Human with helm and armor must be balanced by the Advanced Mara's increased rate of strike, etc., etc. I know that the dretch is faster/smaller than the human. It can also move soundlessly and wall-walk; meaning it has to be balanced out by the humans' better base defense, ranged attack, and faster rate of fire.

To me, the s1 vs. s1 stats were already perfectly balanced in 1.1 and didn't really need much tampering. I know others disagree. That is the way of the world.

I actually like the nerfing of Rants, because it forces s3 aliens to play more creatively.  I also like the Mara’s new wall-bounce.

Still, from my point of view it seems that the alien's were only hindered by most of their changes while the humans were given nothing but perks, except for their rets which now suck (though Dretches can't take out anymore which is, in itself, kind of lame.)

As for the “difference-between-bite-and-slash” debate, I think it’s obvious what they are talking about:
Bite is farther forward and straight ahead and slash/swipe is farther back and has a wider radius.
That’s why the 1.1 Rant’s primary attack was so wide while all of the other aliens had a small radius. So many people referred to the other alien attacks as “slash” that it just sort of stuck. But in 1.2 Changes it says “All Aliens NOW have a slash attack with a reduced length and wider radius...” You know, because it SLASHES across the screen?.

4x <  
Excuse me, what? First you say that aliens have been nerfed too much, then you imply that a single dretch is better than 4 humans? Which one now is it?

You are right. What I meant was:

  4x (faster) >  

Like I said, I wasn't in the best state of mind while posting that and of course it WAS labeled as a reiteration so you already knew what I meant.

Thanks, though, for having such a trite response. It makes me feel a whole lot better about myself.


  

[UniqPhoeniX]

No, classes do NOT need an exact equivalent in the opposite team, it just has to be balanced overall.
Aliens got plenty of perks too: gas, grab, zap chain, barb splash, pounce, trample, hive, barri, smaller bboxes, etc. Start using them. The turrets just need to be built differently; they work just fine, if not better, than before.

[Venkman]

No, classes do NOT need an exact equivalent in the opposite team, it just has to be balanced overall.

"It's a bird, it's a plane... No, it's Super Knit-Picker!"

Of course EACH class doesn't need an EXACT equivalent, which is not what I said. I was merely referencing examples of what I thought helped balance the various stages. I mean, why do you think things like stages matter? Because the team with the higher stage has a better chance of winning, do to the "imbalance" it causes.

The subject that I was referring to in my previous post was specifically the S1 balance between dretch and naked human. And YES, these two classes NEED to be exactly balanced. Otherwise, the game wouldn't work.  

[/quote]
Aliens got plenty of perks too: gas, grab, zap chain, barb splash, pounce, trample, hive, barri, smaller bboxes, etc. Start using them. The turrets just need to be built differently; they work just fine, if not better, than before.
[/quote]

You forgot boosters, trappers, and regenerating health (which are my personal favorites )

And, yeah, thanks for the advice. Although I have no idea why you're giving it.

I never said the aliens didn't have any "perks". My comment about Dretches not being able to take out rets was specifically referring to DRETCHES. I know the other classes are better.

That's why players try to collect evos. So they can evolve more efficient attacks.

I mean, god, have you even PLAYED this game before?!

[UniqPhoeniX]

The thing about a game like Trem is it's all about the balance: Lucy must be balanced against Rant, S2 Human with helm and armor must be balanced by the Advanced Mara's increased rate of strike, etc., etc.

Of course EACH class doesn't need an EXACT equivalent, which is not what I said. I was merely referencing examples of what I thought helped balance the various stages. I mean, why do you think things like stages matter? Because the team with the higher stage has a better chance of winning, do to the "imbalance" it causes.<- you just got promoted to Captain.

The subject that I was referring to in my previous post was specifically the S1 balance between dretch and naked human. And YES, these two classes NEED to be exactly balanced. Otherwise, the game wouldn't work.  

Sooo... only some classes need to have an equivalent? IMO, no, the abilities of 1 team are partially countered by all abilities of the other team at the same stage, not any specific ones. And chainsuit would be a closer opponent to rant. Dretch doesn't have to be exactly balanced with rifle, in s1 maras and goons kill all humans similarly to how any humans (with any weapon, not skill lvl) can kill dretches.

Still, from my point of view it seems that the alien's were only hindered by most of their changes while the humans were given nothing but perks

And, yeah, thanks for the advice. Although I have no idea why you're giving it.

I never said the aliens didn't have any "perks". My comment about Dretches not being able to take out rets was specifically referring to DRETCHES. I know the other classes are better.

Gave the advice since you talked like you hadn't figured out how to use most of the positive changes. I never commented on dretches vs rets specifically.
But, if you want one: rets had to be changed for obvious reasons. And with the new rets, dretches were way too strong against them, so they got changed too.

Also try to be less offensive, Captain Obvious.

[Venkman]

If you're offended, I'm sorry. Especially considering all I was doing was imitating the exact same condescending tone you had in your earlier post...

Aliens got plenty of perks too: gas, grab, zap chain, barb splash, pounce, trample, hive, barri, smaller bboxes, etc. Start using them.

I think you might be taking this whole "opinions on an internet forum" thing a bit too seriously. I'm just some nerd who likes to wax intellectual about video games. And then you come along and make a comment that bypasses all of my points just to imply that I can't use advanced alien attacks. By the way, almost every one of those attacks you mentioned come at S2/S3. When I was talking about dretches, I was CLEARLY referring to the balance of S1.

Sooo... only some classes need to have an equivalent? IMO, no, the abilities of 1 team are partially countered by all abilities of the other team at the same stage, not any specific ones. And chainsuit would be a closer opponent to rant. Dretch doesn't have to be exactly balanced with rifle, in s1 maras and goons kill all humans similarly to how any humans (with any weapon, not skill lvl) can kill dretches.

It's not the class, it's the ability. And yes, their abilities balance the game. That's why I said "the Adv. Mara's increased rate of strike". Rant is self-explanatory and the lucy is the only weapon that a lone noob could possibly use to take down a Rant (who is also most likely a noob). There's your balance: the noob-factor + weapon/alien class compared to the opposing team's equivalent. Just like you said, a naked human with no skill SHOULD still be able to kill a Dretch. One that's headed straight for him, at least.

Honestly, it sounds like you're arguing the exact same point as me. You just don't like the words I used.

Again, I'm sorry. Honestly though, this is a stupid conversation. Even by internet forum standards.

[amgh]

Of course EACH class doesn't need an EXACT equivalent, which is not what I said. I was merely referencing examples of what I thought helped balance the various stages. I mean, why do you think things like stages matter? Because the team with the higher stage has a better chance of winning, do to the "imbalance" it causes.

The subject that I was referring to in my previous post was specifically the S1 balance between dretch and naked human. And YES, these two classes NEED to be exactly balanced. Otherwise, the game wouldn't work.  

 it's not just about stages, it's also about credits and evos: why does the dretch have be balanced with the naked human? how many s1 humans can a decent s1 goon kill?

I mean, god, have you even PLAYED this game before?!

 that's a bit uncalled for

[Venkman]

You answered your own question: Why do Dretches and naked humans need to be balanced?

Because it's all about the evos. How can a Dretch get the three evos to become a goon if he can't kill naked humans?

I feel the opening-game balance was more accurate in 1.1. Again, that's just my opinion.

 "that's a bit uncalled for"

Did you read the comment before that one? All I was doing was implying, in a more satirical tone, exactly what Phoenix implied of me; that I didn't know how to play the game because of one random comment I made that wasn't even related to my main point.

That's why I tried to make the connection sound as absurd as possible. Maybe I should just start labeling my sarcasm.

[F50]

If you're offended, I'm sorry. Especially considering all I was doing was imitating the exact same condescending tone you had in your earlier post...All I was implying, in a more satirical tone, exactly what Phoenix implied of me..

You still don't need to be a dick about it, especially considering your post was erroneous at that point.

I think you might be taking this whole "opinions on an internet forum" thing a bit too seriously. I'm just some nerd who likes to wax intellectual about video games. And then you come along and make a comment that bypasses all of my points just to imply that I can't use advanced alien attacks. By the way, almost every one of those attacks you mentioned come at S2/S3. When I was talking about dretches, I was CLEARLY referring to the balance of S1.

Wow, you're really stuck up on that. Even if you were clearly referring to the balance at S1, the point still remains. Does any pair of two abilities, ANY pair, need to be balanced against *only* each other?

Sooo... only some classes need to have an equivalent? IMO, no, the abilities of 1 team are partially countered by all abilities of the other team at the same stage, not any specific ones. And chainsuit would be a closer opponent to rant. Dretch doesn't have to be exactly balanced with rifle, in s1 maras and goons kill all humans similarly to how any humans (with any weapon, not skill lvl) can kill dretches.

It's not the class, it's the ability. And yes, their abilities balance the game. That's why I said "the Adv. Mara's increased rate of strike". Rant is self-explanatory and the lucy is the only weapon that a lone noob could possibly use to take down a Rant (who is also most likely a noob). There's your balance: the noob-factor + weapon/alien class compared to the opposing team's equivalent. Just like you said, a naked human with no skill SHOULD still be able to kill a Dretch. One that's headed straight for him, at least.

Dretches and naked rifles do not need to be balanced by themselves, at least in combat ability. At the moment, a dretch killing a human gets more than a human killing a dretch. And even if you could argue that contest was not balanced, you still need to explain why the overall game cannot be balanced because of that. Consider this, with each team given nothing but rifles and dretches/grangers, it is nigh impossible for either team to win, because so much of the dretch vs rifle contest depends on the circumstances (such as terrain) before the contest begins, and when you're attacking the enemy base, you're usually not fighting in favorable circumstances. Are you sure that all of Tremulous hinges on this contest being balanced? I think that is quite a claim to make.

Balancing the game for noobs is not good. I'd rather play a game that turns noobs into more experienced players.

How can a dretch get the three evos to become a goon if he can't kill naked humans

If he can't kill naked humans, its his own fault. Normally people just feed more evos than they get, rather than being completely unable to kill anyone. However, if he can get to a better class for a while he'll be fine. Don't forget partial evos!

[Venkman]

I know there is also the human factor. That is always obviously going to matter when you're talking about a game that is played by people.

When did I say "only each other" about the class-balances?

I really don’t think Trem is as noob-friendly a game as you think. And if you believe that balance would make the game hard for beginners, then that's fine. I think you're wrong. I think that, without a precise balance between these two very different opposing forces, the game would be unplayable by anyone. Not just noobs.

If you don't agree, that's fine. But to tell me I can't be a dick to someone who went out of their way to be a dick to me is just ri-“dick”-ulous, not to mention the fact that most people on here can't be anything else. Maybe if he had tried to debate my actual point instead of just referencing one statement that was in parenthesis and part of a response to someone else out of context solely so he could make a slight against my alleged playing skills, I would have probably been less condescending to him.

Also, it DOES matter what I was saying about S1 vs S1 because that was the comment he responded to.

What if you said “I like cake…”

And then I said, “Yeah but what if that cake has been urinated on? You like pee-cake? You’re a freak.”

Now, would your argument be:

A.)   “I never said I liked pee-cake.”

OR

B.)   “Man, that’s a good point. I AM a freak. Thanks, dude. You’re REALLY cool, you know that? We should hang out.”

Lastly, F50, I think your heart is in the right place. You’re trying to keep this forum free of obvious trolls who just want to shit all over everyone else’s opinions and I commend you for that. I know how the internet, and specifically this forum, can be. You even did the same for me when I was just a noob looking for answers on that Strategy Guide thread I necro-ed in Strategies and Tactics. And, for that, I am still thankful.

I can also assure you that I am no troll. Trem is, hands down, my favorite game and the only one I actually bother to make time for anymore. And all I wanted to do was give my feedback in the “Feedback” section. But, alas, my comment about Maras has now most likely been lost in all of this trite bickering. And thinking about it like that just makes me sad.

All of this energy that I could have spent PLAYING Trem has been wasted on this.

[temple]

I made the exact same observations as the OP over a year ago.  But people like 1.2 and that's that. 

[Venkman]

I made the exact same observations as the OP over a year ago.  But people like 1.2 and that's that.  

Still, it's nice to know that at least SOMEBODY agrees with me.

And if it's too late for our 1.2 feedback to effect anything, then at least there's still 1.1, which is already a great game if you ask me.

Let's just hope the servers stick around.

[Meisseli]

I made the exact same observations as the OP over a year ago.  But people like 1.2 and that's that.  

Still, it's nice to know that at least SOMEBODY agrees with me.

And if it's too late for our 1.2 feedback to effect anything, then at least there's still 1.1, which is already a great game if you ask me.

Let's just hope the servers stick around.

I agree with you that the dretch should be boosted or rifle nerfed (rifle as a free weapon is really too good in my opinion) to make the start more balanced. Other than that, disagree. Turrets are fine as they are (just place them well!) and maras too.

[Venkman]

I agree with you that the dretch should be boosted or rifle nerfed (rifle as a free weapon is really too good in my opinion) to make the start more balanced. Other than that, disagree. Turrets are fine as they are (just place them well!) and maras too.

I did some more building as a human in 1.2 and I'm starting to understand the new rets a bit better. I like how they force the H-players to not rely on base defense so much and they DO work quite well when placed properly. So, on that point, I must concede.

I think what a lot of people don't realize about the opening-game balance of 1.2 is that, because the Dretch can longer attack structures of any kind, the game itself still relies on the humans coming out of their base to attack.

Sure, the rets take longer to spin up so the H-base itself is not as impenetrable as it once was. But, with the right builder, humans can still camp as long as they're willing.

Let's say that a single naked S1 human is charging the base of a bunch of noob-aliens who can't Dretch for shit.

In this scenario, the naked human can walk into the A-base and theoretically destroy everything in his path:
Their tubes, their spawns, even the Overmind itself.

Now flip these factors so that the humans are noobs and one leet Alien player is on the attack. No matter how skilled of a player he is, if he's a Dretch, he still can't actually effect anything. His best bet is to get a few kills and evolve into something that can actually effect the human base, but then he still has to retreat out of range of the humans to evolve.

In 1.1, this was totally justified by the fact that Aliens were just a bit too good at pwning and even decent humans needed a base with some breathing room if they were going to stay alive in S1. I also understand that a lot of the changes in 1.2 were meant to address exactly that issue. I just think the alien nerfing was a bit too much compensation and now their class is just as much the underdog as Humans were in 1.1 games.

And what nobody really seems to want to address is the issue of weaponry. Sure, Alien attacks SOUND cool on paper. But they are another thing all together to pull off, in game. I mean, real humans (as in us) invented ranged weapons for a reason: It made warfare so much easier.

If the other guy has to come right up next to you to hit you and all the while you can just blast him with bullets (or lasers, or lucies, or fire...), that other motherfucker is as sure as dead unless he is:
1.) Fast
2.) A Good Aim
3.) Great at blind dodging with his back turned.

Regenerating health wouldn't hurt either.

Though, don't get me wrong. These same reason are why I LOVE playing Aliens. When I pull off a 3-kill Mara-slaughter in the A.T.C.S. hallway while dodging fire from two different lucies and an MG and I manage to retreat with only 3hp and like 7 evos, I feel pretty damn badass.  

Still, that's why Aliens require so much health to be a viable opponent. If the aliens can't stay alive long enough to withstand more than three seconds of a single enemy's attack then, to quote the great American writer William Faulkner, they're all just "sound and fury, signifying nothing."

...Okay, I think I MIGHT actually be done trying to explain myself on this one. I hope I am, anyway.

[Meisseli]

I really doubt that's a problem... If humans camp, just build them in, don't feed and wait for evos (every 2 minutes) and occasionally kill the ones coming out. In maps like Niveus, Arachnid and Karith aliens can just take the default base down be there humans or not.

I don't have any problems playing aliens and I really wonder what that "nerf" you're talking about is. Goons are perhaps even more powerful than before with the powered pounce, it's easier to hit with a marauder, tyrant still is the big tank.

I suggest you still play more and explore GPP 1.2 thoroughly. Aliens are used like it was in 1.1, attack-retreat-attack-retreat... and so on. And you hit and aim at humans like you used to do.

And lastly:

1.) Fast
2.) A Good Aim

Aren't those what the human needs too to kill the alien in the first place?

[Norfenstein]

But in 1.2 Changes it says “All Aliens NOW have a slash attack with a reduced length and wider radius...” You know, because it SLASHES across the screen?.

I can assure you that there is no intended significance in the use of either term. Whatever the model for a class does when you attack is what is supposed to be used. They're all just melee-range hitscan attacks to me.

[Jazz]

I don't really understand the new rant. His new trample is slow and with all reduces he's probably forced to camp behind corners instead of being human killer 

[Norfenstein]

I don't really understand the new rant. His new trample is slow and with all reduces he's probably forced to camp behind corners instead of being human killer 

Every change made to the trample was an improvement, except that you can't charge it by walking into a wall any more (and possibly that it no longer does locational damage). Maybe you're not paying attention to the charge bar and just always waiting for it to automatically release? It's basically now the most powerful attack in the game in the right situations.

[Plague Bringer]

Every change made to the trample was an improvement, except that you can't charge it by walking into a wall any more (and possibly that it no longer does locational damage). Maybe you're not paying attention to the charge bar and just always waiting for it to automatically release? It's basically now the most powerful attack in the game in the right situations.

That's a big complaint for some. A lot of people will likely complain that A are too situational.

[Conzul]

I think trample is quite powerful, in many situations. It's the HP nerf I dislike. Rather it cost more evos, and keep the 50HP