Humans V Aliens balance

[Sir|Fluffalot]

I like playing trem and it's a fun game but it gets annoying because I almost always play alien. Imo it's unfair the way humans are overpowered.

reason 1.
Changing classes. When I play alien I get really annoyed that once I find that our builder has gone awol then we adv a stage. I can't build, So I need to suicide rush get killed lose my evos then build.
also when I'm rushing maybe I was goon but mara would be suitable but I can't change. Some people may think this is unfair if you could change back to a mara when you see luci, rant when you see chainsuit and goon when you see flamer.

reason 2.
Buildables. Another thing is the buildables. At stage one it's pretty even(although rifles can take out alien base but dretches can't do anything). But at stage 2 the humans get Dc :defcomp:and aliens get :booster:and :trapper:boost and trap. But something went wrong w/ the booster stage select. At s1 you should get boost but no poison then you could get an adv booster. But at s3 I gget really annoyed because imo TESLA>hive. hives take time to hit so a luci could beat two hives, wheras a tesla is instant,dishes out lots of damage and has a high hp.

Reason 3.
Grenades. This is a quick one but grenades are useful but aliens have nothing like it. I play on R cz sometimes. And In a map w/ a teleport to a small room humans can tesla it up and no alien can get there. however If the aliens get this room humans can suicide nades plus tubes aren't strong anough and as I said hives take time to hit.

Reason 4.
Jettards. People complain about jetcamping imo theres one way to deal w/ it. you need to get a new alien class that can fly

Ok I'm sure there are more and plz post your trolling ideas too.

[Qrntz]

and plz post your trolling ideas too.

I'm starting to like you.
Well:
1) Balance issues.
2) Not sure it's really that needed.
3) Don't play crap maps on Unlimited CZ. I can tell by experience that people done naughty things like that or surrounding an egg with teslas, which is actually pure faggotry.
4) A chance this will ever be done is not too high. And default maps aren't too good for jetcamping, so 3) does the thing too.

[zybork]

Forget about R-CZ, this server is not to be taken seriously, and anything derived from experience there simply does not count anywhere else.

Interestingly, I find aliens a bit overpowered, for instance, marauders have a zap that can act like nade-spam, humans have to hit goons or rants for a period of time while those bugs just need 2 or 3 slashes, small aliens can wallwalk, making them pretty hard to chase, the list goes on.

In contrast to you, this opinion may be substantiated by statistics: http://stats.tremulous.net/

Just look how often humans win and how often aliens win on the standard maps. Aliens are more likely to be overpowered than humans.

[DraZiLoX]

I had Jetpackfuel on my server and that totally solved the problem. Everyone still used jetpacks, but just for 30 seconds, then you had to wait fuel regen.

[Tremulant]

marauders have a zap that can act like nade-spam

Bollocks they have!

[UniqPhoeniX]

1. De-evolution would be nice so you could build without the humans knowing and without losing evos, but it has to be limited, perhaps require the player to stay still for several seconds, like 3 sec if in base to de-evolve by 1 class, or 5 sec if outside base. Then going from rant to dretch outside base would take 25 sec and would not be usable for saving any evos before dying.
However, this is too big of a change to be made for 1.2 IMO

2. IMO Hive is way better than tesla. Besides, the buildings don't have to have exact equals. The teams are supposed to be different.

3. Building at teleports could be solved by basically giving players notarget for 1 sec after using teleport. And FWIW, this isn't just a problem with high-bp servers and crap maps.

4. Or you can limit the jetpack.

[Sir|Fluffalot]

limiting time on a jetpack could be unfair because it's useful on maps where goons can reach you but it's helpful a flying alien would be good imo.

[Sir|Fluffalot]

kk fair point everyone but the Rc has 930 hp and om has 750hp the Rc can give damage 30+ the om can, and what's the one thing that's better when u have om?? It speaks in 3rd person about it beaing attacked and only after you have no eggs it tells you. imo    < Rc

[CreatureofHell]

How to lose evos 

[Meisseli]

The game is not supposed to be identical. Live with it. It's not unbalanced.

[DraZiLoX]

limiting time on a jetpack could be unfair because it's useful on maps where goons can reach you but it's helpful a flying alien would be good imo.

Again, crapmaps. Say any good map that you can jetcamp somewhere, where no one can get you

[smeagle]

Make adv mara electricity destroy incoming grenades!
  -_--__--_--____--_- 

[F50]

limiting time on a jetpack could be unfair because it's useful on maps where goons can reach you but it's helpful a flying alien would be good imo.

Again, crapmaps. Say any good map that you can jetcamp somewhere, where no one can get you

Karith.

[KillerWhale]

De-evolution is "meh" for me. I don't think it's needed and it could be highly exploitable.

Hive is way better then tesla unless you just stand next to it and die.

Marauder is equivocal to grenades in any server that isn't a pile of trash.

If someone is jetcamping, ignore them and go kill someone who's actually doing something useful for the humans.

[Kiwi]

I don't like the idea of de-evolution.  But if it had to be implemented I think you should have to spend evos to de-evolve (and it can only happen under the same circumstances as normally evolving).  So going from goon to adv mara when your team gets s2 will cost an evo.

[UniqPhoeniX]

De-evolution would help a lot if you don't have several good players on your team, and I can't see any ways to exploit it (that is if it's slow).

You can't always get someone else to build, and if you have to suicide just to get anything (re)built, and you know the human campers are waiting for just that suicide to rush, you are screwed. IMO humans shouldn't have the luxury of getting to wait for the best opponent to throw away it's evos because he doesn't have any other good players in his team (which is already a disadvantage). I realize Tremulous is not supposed to be a one man show, but (competent) humans have a significant advantage in smaller games due to this (apparently other things make up for it, but still).

Even if there is more than one good player in aliens, they may all have evolved already (which is usually the case).

Being able to go all the way back to granger only really matters in smaller games, but de-evolution also allows aliens to be more unpredictable.


Kiwi: then it becomes nearly useless unless you only want a small change. Going from goon to basi (or lower) would be cheaper if you suicide. Aliens don't have to get back 100 % of evos, but most. Also I'm not suggesting this for 1.2 in any way, it requires a lot of re-balancing.

[DraZiLoX]

limiting time on a jetpack could be unfair because it's useful on maps where goons can reach you but it's helpful a flying alien would be good imo.

Again, crapmaps. Say any good map that you can jetcamp somewhere, where no one can get you

Karith.

Basically yeah, if you move in the air.

[David]

This would have a big impact end-game, when suddenly grangers would appear all over the map to rebuild.

I'd probably say only in-range of the OM / maybe eggs, and only while there are still eggs around.

[Meisseli]

No. No de-evolution. Tyrant, then evolve to basilisk to heal, then evolve back... evolve from a tyrant to a mara when there's a mara rush... evolve to a granger when you're the last alien standing. It would affect the gameplay hugely and be very exploitable.

[DraZiLoX]

No. No de-evolution. Tyrant, then evolve to basilisk to heal, then evolve back... evolve from a tyrant to a mara when there's a mara rush... evolve to a granger when you're the last alien standing. It would affect the gameplay hugely and be very exploitable.

This why de-evolve shouldn't give your evos back. But its good idea in my opinion.

[A Spork]

No. No de-evolution. Tyrant, then evolve to basilisk to heal, then evolve back... evolve from a tyrant to a mara when there's a mara rush... evolve to a granger when you're the last alien standing. It would affect the gameplay hugely and be very exploitable.

I think the point of this thread though is that humans can and do do exactly that....

[Haraldx]

reason 1.
Changing classes. When I play alien I get really annoyed that once I find that our builder has gone awol then we adv a stage. I can't build, So I need to suicide rush get killed lose my evos then build.
also when I'm rushing maybe I was goon but mara would be suitable but I can't change. Some people may think this is unfair if you could change back to a mara when you see luci, rant when you see chainsuit and goon when you see flamer.

Random rant: Omfg, there are 5 humans with chainsuit!
Random rant: *de-evolves to dretch*
Random rant: Ha, now I can hide in that vent, then they go past me, I turn back to rant and pwn them from back.
Chainsuit human 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5: *Spams "come on" and ignores the vents, goes to the alien base*
Random rant: *evolves to rant*
Random rant: *Rapes all chainsuits*
Chainsuit human 1: omgwtfbbq!
Chainsuit human 2: Nigger!
Chainsuit human 3: Wtf was that? Hax noob!
Chainsuit human 4: Stupid hacking nub, kick him!
Chainsuit human 5: I like cookies...
Vote kick - Kick player "random rant": Yes 5, No 1
Vote passed
Player "random rant" has been kicked, reason: Vote kick.

Lil' overpowered, no?

[David]

Unless he didn't get his evo back, in which case it's no different to them having killed him while taking no damage themselves, and then him having re-evo'd to Tyrant.

[Haraldx]

Unless he didn't get his evo back, in which case it's no different to them having killed him while taking no damage themselves, and then him having re-evo'd to Tyrant.

It would still be overpowered as Random rant might have spare 5 evos which grant Random rant ability to still be tyrant even after the de-evolution. Result? Bad idea!

[OhaiReapd]

Protip, require creep/basi heal to be able to devo

[Celestial_Rage]

Actually, I'd go a bit further and say you need to be within a certain distance of the OM to de-evolve and be unable to evolve for 30 sec. You would be reimbursed for your evos, however (can't go over 9 though, unlike humans, who can go ever 2000). While this would certainly change the dynamics of the game, it would not necessarily be in a bad way.

[Tremulant]

If you're going to get evos back it should be 50% of those used to evolve to your current class, at most.

[Kiwi]

[deleted]

[Kiwi]

Kiwi: then it becomes nearly useless unless you only want a small change. Going from goon to basi (or lower) would be cheaper if you suicide. Aliens don't have to get back 100 % of evos, but most. Also I'm not suggesting this for 1.2 in any way, it requires a lot of re-balancing.

Right, that's the point.  The only use for de-evolution I see is from going from goon to adv mara at s2.  (rant to adv goon to snipe is also useful, but not in as much so from a fast rushing point of view)  And you should have to pay for that, maybe even 2x the evos.  The surprise you get is also worth something.  But once again, I don't like the idea of de-evolution, this is the best way I could see it working though.

[UniqPhoeniX]

I already said why I think de-evolution would be very useful, also HOW CAN YOU ALL MISS ME SAYING IT HAS TO BE SLOW NOT INSTANT YOU BLIND TROLLS.

EDIT: in case I wasn't clear enough, READ before you post, the points you bring up may have been countered already, bringing them up AGAIN adds nothing to the discussion and is, IMO, spam. Also, if you think de-evolution is useless, it would be better to say why the uses I brought up don't matter/don't make sense/are unbalanced, instead of saying "I can't see any use for it".

IMO the aliens are supposed to be the more adaptable ones, and be better at moving, but in 1.2 it's almost the opposite if there are 2+ good (apparently very good by most players' standards) human players. Also it would make aliens A LOT less predictable especially in smaller games. Humans already have the equivalent, it's called "selling".