Adjustments for noobs - TOAD DRETCH

[B.Knight]

I notice that part of Trem is the learning curve for noobs:
1.) noobs tend to prefer humans because it is easier to learn to shoot again and buy/sell recognizable arms than to learn to be proficient as an alien and develop the skills to be effective as alients...
... that said a proficient alien is a dangerous player.

I propose that aliens start with a "toad" dretch. The "toad" has the following capabilities:

It is available at S1 to the alien class.
it has 2 attacks:
 Mouse1 is a tongue attack. it is slightly weaker than a dretch bite, repeatable at the rate of a blaster, and has a range of twice the distance of  swipe.
 Mouse2 is a pounce. the attack is benign. it cause no damage. (i will explain below)

a "toad" cannot crawl. however it can jump and pounce. when "crawling" is enabled the toad will "Cling" to the wall. This allows the noob to practice both pouncing and mara attacks and still be effective in game.  The tongue requires close range, but not quite biting range, but gives the feel of using a range weapon.

"toad" has 25 hp and moves at the same rate as a dretch.

[Qrntz]

A dretch that wallwalks, pounces, carries a limited-range blaster, is supposed to feel like a mara and look like a toad?
Perfect.

[swamp-cecil]

Wrath Newbie Training Server
When is the 1.2 training server going to be hosted on a dedicated device?

back on topic....
I am opposed to this idea because of:
1. we dont need another free offence class, because if you practcie the dretch enough, not even for long, you can be rather profficient.
2. "tounge" isnt alien like. Belive it or not, this ability is actualy weaker than the dretch bite. Bite does more damage, fires the same speed and you dont have to click.
3. aliens arent ranged. Only the dragoon specialises in range for its pounce and snipes. But the barbs, being the only projectile for the aliens, could barely hit humans, so it is intended for base killing
4. If a noob pounces on a wall, (psychology) they are tempted to stay put there, and with their 25 hp, get shot down easily.

Overall: dretch is still more powerful. However this is the least noobiest suggestion for a new alien I've ever seen.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

i'd just like a dretch with dodge.

[B.Knight]

lots of comments...

not supposed to "feel like a mara", it's own distinct class.

>1. we dont need another free offence class, because if you practcie >the dretch enough, not even for long, you can be rather profficient.

there is certainly room for another offense class for aliens. especially one that is weaker. if not free, maybe 1 evo. people sit on the servers at the start of a game and see who is going to capitulate and be an alien instead of human. In general, people prefer to be human. We should seek to improve that without upsetting the balance of the game.

>2. "tounge" isnt alien like. Belive it or not, this ability is >actualy weaker than the dretch bite. Bite does more damage, fires >the same speed and you dont have to click.

was deliberately weaker. It may need to be tuned. It should not be more powerful than a dretch. ideally, equivalent, but different.

>3. aliens arent ranged. Only the dragoon specialises in range for >its pounce and snipes. But the barbs, being the only projectile for >the aliens, could barely hit humans, so it is intended for base >killing

true. this alient doesnt bite. this alien still needs to get in close. he cant reach a human down a hall, but he doesnt have to literally bite, just get close.

>4. If a noob pounces on a wall, (psychology) they are tempted to >stay put there, and with their 25 hp, get shot down easily.

good point about the psychology. i expect that lesson to be learned quickly. it may be that this class would be an easy target because it would spend too much time on the floor.

aliens need more diversity and players need tools to improve skills with the evolved classes.

[Meisseli]

Aliens in Tremulous are very poorly balanced, the lower classes are very weak while the bigger ones are too powerful. Many matches end up with a few proficient rifles getting too many free kills from the insanely weak dretches, ending the game very quickly. However it's true that there's no need for another alien class, but this can be resolved by replacing the stupidly inadept dretch with a completely another class.

The first class having more health and a short pounce has been the best suggestion up to date in my opinion.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

Aliens in Tremulous are very poorly balanced, the lower classes are very weak while the bigger ones are too powerful. Many matches end up with a few proficient rifles getting too many free kills from the insanely weak dretches, ending the game very quickly. However it's true that there's no need for another alien class, but this can be resolved by replacing the stupidly inadept dretch with a completely another class.

The first class having more health and a short pounce has been the best suggestion up to date in my opinion.

say, would making dretches take at least two hits from any given weapon (save luci, of course) help their balance?

i mean, you say dretches are insanely weak, but back in the 1hko thread you were telling me they were fine....

what happened to change your mind?

[Meisseli]

say, would making dretches take at least two hits from any given weapon (save luci, of course) help their balance?

No

i mean, you say dretches are insanely weak, but back in the 1hko thread you were telling me they were fine....

what happened to change your mind?

Um, time existed before your thread, I've been holding that opinion for quite a long. Search with the keywords "dretch" "rifle" and "meisseli" for example. Your silly ramblings about one-hit kills, laughable claims about Tremulous being equal to Urban Terror, etc. were what really didn't exactly make me or anyone agree with you. It's perfectly fine if you have to buy a costly and/or specialized weapon in order to kill a low level class easily.

It's the balance in the start of the game that has been horrible for a long time. Dretches are unable to get kills for a much longer time than humans with the free starting weapon being so powerful compared to the dretch. It's common for any dretch to die some five times before getting their first kill. It's silly that some games end up with two skilled rifles being in each of the two alien entrances with no dretches getting any kills regardless of their skill level.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

so basically, it's ok to flip-flop your opinion, based on which thread you are posting in, and who posted it.

in addition, comments on gameplay can be ignored if you do not agree with the OP's definition of "mod" and "game".

perhaps in getting so hooked into a side argument, you should remember the point of that topic.  that point, in not so many words, is that dretches die too fast.  one shot is too fast.

i've generally not had the problem you describe against rifles.  against rifles, i can usually get close enough to bite once every spawn, eventually driving the humans away.  against "costly" or "specialized" weapons such as the MD (which, i'd like to point out is neither costly nor specialized) i am stuck at the entrance campers' mercy, consigned to either feed or hide in the base till they get bored or backup.

also, if dretches are too weak compared to the free starting gear of the humans, what does that make them compared to upgraded humans?

please, dont think that i am just being quarrelsome.  i am genuinely interested on how you believe you own opinions to be valid, despite the  obvious flaw in your logic (dretches are balanced vs things other than the rifle, yet dretch vs rifle is unbalanced);  yet you dismiss my similar opinion because of "ramblings" and an offtopic discussion?

[Tremulant]

Oh god, not again...

Dretch vs vaguely accurate rifle(this is how i'd class myself) generally equals dead dretch, Dretch vs same grade of player wielding an MD, assuming the dretch isn't completely inept and there isn't a long, straight hall involved, equals panicked MDguy flailing around and, more often than not, failing to hit the target, i only need to miss once for a decent dretch to take me out. From this example, can you begin to understand why 1 hit kills against dretches with the MD are pretty much irrelevant to everyone but you?
What's the alien equivalent of a massdriver, goon maybe? So, you're the alien expert, goon vs unarmoured rifleman, how does that compare to MD vs. dretch?

If you want to discuss 1 hit kills then go resurrect your topic, the point of this topic is that there should be an extra class, that's a toad, that can hop, with a slow repeating marazap-like ranged attack, that has some kind of pointless wallsticking ability in place of wallwalk, that still has 25hp and so will die in one shot just as much as the dretch.

Yay for constant hopeless feeding, i bet you're a popular addition to any alien team...

Do come back and share your valuable opinions once you've edged just a touch closer to mediocrity, please.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

no, not again.  unless you are making it so.  this has been on topic.  we have been talking about dretches being too weak.  despite having polar opposite reasons for this opinion, we both seem to think that a dretch with a bit more hp and a short pounce (aka forward dodge) would be a good thing.

my last post goes on to posit "since the base of the game is dretch vs rifle, and dretch vs rifle is "unbalanced" how can anything else be balanced, being built on top of imbalance", without actually saying it.  i was kind of hoping those who read it would be able to draw this conclusion themselves.

but to entertain the side discussion you seem intent on forcing, no, not every MD panics.  you know what, MD doubles as a shotgun fairly well.

i believe the math was that MD = 2 evos, or close to it (meaning > 1.5).  that would mean MD = mara.  mara vs rifle does not seem to be as out of whack as MD vs dretch.  or anything vs dretch for that matter.

now, make up your mind.  you tell me to stay on topic, yet you then go off topic in some attempt to ridicule me for my stats.  would you like to discuss this proposed new class, or perhaps address the reasoning behind the request?  i'll not lament about how my e-peen isnt big enough for you to respect.  i actually dont give a shit about that, sorry.

[Qrntz]

[Meisseli]

Your silly ramblings about one-hit kills, laughable claims about Tremulous being equal to Urban Terror, etc. were what really didn't exactly make me or anyone agree with you. It's perfectly fine if you have to buy a costly and/or specialized weapon in order to kill a low level class easily.

You try to play some kind of a sympathy card, evil Meisseli & co. always disputing your ideas because they hate you so much. I'm afraid you're very wrong there, your words rarely gain any support because the things you say simply don't hold much ground. Hello, read the upper quote again. Your entire topic was about one-hit kills, how you die to a massdriver so quickly as a dretch and so on, in addition with some very laughable claims about mods you hadn't even played. Remember? These things made almost everyone, including me, strongly disagree with you. Not the dretch being weak, but the completely baseless one-hit kill ramblings, yes, ramblings, plus some very false statements as a cherry on the top.

Now, let's see. Ever since unlagged was turned permanently on in the Official Servers, I've held the opinion: "dretches are way too weak". They used to be a bit weak already, but we Europeans weren't playing with any latency assists. Having unlagged on makes hitting with the ranged human weapons a whole lot easier.

Then you come complaining that the massdriver, shotgun, and lucifer cannon kill dretches too easily. Hey, that's how it should be! You gain a few kills, buy better equipment, and manage to kill the most basic, free alien class easily. This is what you still, even after all this time, fail to grasp. In this game, if the player manages to get a few frags, he will be rewarded, and will have an easier time afterwards. Both evolving/buying and the staging mechanics will ensure that.

There's a significant difference with having an easy time killing dretches easily with equipment gained from frags compared to having an easy time with free equipment straight from the spawn. You get to buy an expensive massdriver after killing 3 dretches (don't _ever_ leave home without armour), whereas the rifle is free. Massdriver is a highly specialized weapon for dretch-killing, whereas rifle is an all-around. Massdriver loses it's potency when aliens stage up or evolve, whereas rifle is always good due to it never costing you a thing. You always spawn with a rifle, and you always spawn with a dretch. Those are the two things you start with, therefore a rifle vs. dretch scenario should be as balanced as possible. A massdriver on the other hand should always dominate over dretch. You're not having an easy time against marauders or dragoons with a naked rifle either, are you?


I think you have a very annoying ability to generate brickwalls and brickwalls of text with into threads when you reply to a topic. We discussed the matter to ad nauseam in the other thread, I don't really feel like arguing with you since it always proves to be just as annoying. Maybe someone else wants to, but I sincerely doubt that. "Not this shit again" - indeed - good riddance.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

you've been seriously misreading my posts for a long time it seems.  especially if you think i am trying to garner sympathy.

i do not believe you, or anyone else, disputes my ideas because they dont like me.  i say that you, and several other people, dispute my ideas either for no good reason, or for something unrelated to the discussion at hand.  here for example, we agree on a solution, but disagree on the problem.  what does my opinion of mods i have admittedly not played have to do with anything?  rather than discuss the point, you seem content to chew old soup.

rambling?  most of my posts were point by point responses to statements made to/about me.  where i was wrong about something, and i was, i admitted my mistake.

you missed a lot in that thread, i am of the opinion only the luci should get oneshots.  i stated this several times in that thread, i was not complaining about luci.  i also advocated removing oneshots from goons.

why is it humans gain power so much more quickly than aliens?  you say "never leave the base without armor".  so, camp in the turrets?  then, after using the rifle that you think is too strong, along with automated defenses and free over time creds, getting the equivalent to 4 evos (or slightly less if you sacrifice range and get a SG) is a fun way to play and balanced?

as i said in my last post, if the game is built on flawed balance, how can anything else be balanced?  you say it yourself, rifle is always free, and is more than equal to the task of easily killing dretches.  this is why i even brought up how you disagreed with me in my thread.  we both agree that the dretch is too weak, but disagree on the reason why.  because of this you seem to have been disagreeing with me in my thread just to be petty, because i do not share your opinions on things unrelated to the game, let alone the subject at hand.  

how can you justify rewarding players with better equipment, designed to dominate less expensive opposition, when the base task is so easy?  for aliens, from dretch to mara, it's two headshots on a helmetless human.  you have to spend at least 4 evos for a real offensive gain.  before that you're really just spending evos to gain HP at the general cost of mobility, speed, and a larger hitbox.  it is very much "small = too weak, big = too strong"

yes, i know the teams are not supposed to be the same, but one would expect a rough balance of power.

i say the dretch is too weak.  it could use some more HP and a dodge bind (including a lunge forward).  or, killing dretches could give less of a reward than it currently does.  or the rifle can become (cheaply) purchased equipment, and only the blaster remains free.  the first idea seems to be the least radical, and thus is the one i'd push for.

[Tremulant]

no, not every MD panics.  you know what, MD doubles as a shotgun fairly well.

I'm speaking based on my ability here, not every player who picks up a massdriver is meisseli, the vast majority would be better off with a rifle or a lasgun, tbh just about any player would be better off with a lasgun, rifles really can dominate dretches with very little trouble at all, and you remain hung up on 1HKOs from slow and expensive weapons...
Part of the problem with your opinions is that they're formed from the somewhat odd perspective of playing exclusively, and quite poorly, as aliens, you don't appear to have any understanding of the game as played from a human point of view, and especially not against skilled aliens.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

no, not everyone is god's gift to the massdriver.  but odds are that at any given time there is going to be at least one player with a decent reserve of skill. 

i remain "hung up" on 1hko because i can dodge around low-damage high-repeat weapons (with a CoF, not pinpoint accuracy) well enough to at least force a retreat.  what i cannot do is close the distance to a weapon with high damage, low repeat, and to-the-pixel accuracy weapon.

despite appearances, i have spent time on the human team.  not nearly as much as aliens, granted, but enough to know that i do not find it fun.  i find that the human tools encourage camping, cheapassedness, and a style of play that i do not find fun.  in general, i find humans "too easy", if played to the fullest of their advantages.  it's boring as fuck to camp to s3, then use lucisuits to overwhelm a team of bled dry dretches.  fighting by holding mouse 1 and running backwards is also boring as fuck. 

until humans somehow become fun for me to play, no thank you.

[CorSair]

despite appearances, i have spent time on the human team.  not nearly as much as aliens, granted, but enough to know that i do not find it fun.  i find that the human tools encourage camping, cheapassedness, and a style of play that i do not find fun.  in general, i find humans "too easy", if played to the fullest of their advantages.  it's boring as fuck to camp to s3, then use lucisuits to overwhelm a team of bled dry dretches.  fighting by holding mouse 1 and running backwards is also boring as fuck.

... sigh.

Welcome to world of Tremulous, where noobs won't listen for their own good.

fighting by holding mouse 1 and running backwards is also boring as fuck.

If you can't make a flank, then go for point blank. Oh damn, that poem is limping.
But what I am trying to tell, that if you want a lot of thrill, then engage in duel or shift around/between/over/[insert awesome word here] the aliens. I've done few awesome duels, and also been in middle of alien pack, causing them to bleed eachother. Those were fun times, even when I died in 1-3 secs.

Also, I found out that sentence to be just as stupid as walking straight and jumping into rifle fire as a dretch.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

welcome to tremulous, where derailing a topic to make a dig at a "newb" is the order of the day.

yes, i know you are not forced to camp and fight like a lameass.  i submit to you that the tools the humans have encourage this.  can you name me a human weapon, aside from the pain saw (of course), that is not more effective when running backwards? 

while i am glad playing human is not as boring to you as it is me (after all, who would i fight if everyone was as bored by humans as i?)  i'd rather know what you think of rifle vs dretch, and ways to fix it if broken.

what are your thoughts of a dretch with a bit more HP and a lunge/dodge/pounce

[CorSair]

My conclusion about Dretch? Low HP, against rifle that has quite good accuracy even on mid-range, and some(many) players who have problems with wallwalk. Also, good heap of money can be get from them, 180 creds *old school cash register opens.*
Go figure.
If you can't figure, then I say it: Dretch is good way to milk money too early.
So, I would support more health and lower the amount of creds you can get it from them.

yes, i know you are not forced to camp and fight like a lameass.  i submit to you that the tools the humans have encourage this.  can you name me a human weapon, aside from the pain saw (of course), that is not more effective when running backwards? 

Is it NOT natural to run backwards when marauder comes to your direction? Or Tyrant charging to you in narrow hallway? Hands up people who like to stand when dragoon/marauder/tyrant is in chomp range.
And about that human weaponry supports camping... well hey, it's up to you to use them.
Like mass driver, for instance, can be excellent long-mid range support weapon, where others are in close combat, or destroying alien base.


And about derailing, it was already done. At least I think so.
This was about of new sort of dretch, not about current dretch.

[ULTRA Random ViruS]

gpp dretch - 36 dmg at torso 54 at head. You require another single headshot to kill a human after the first headshot.
1.1 dretch. - 48 dmg at torso, and 96 at head (if you change gpp's headshot multiplier back to 200% instead of 150% like it is now) and add poison - instant pretty much death. I think its overpowered in 1.1 and not powerful enough in gpp.