Procyon [Update 2007-03-11: Release-R1]

[gareth]

I played one proper game on it, and i do think its an improvement on preview 1, however, i feel it was a bit to big for the server i played on (Aliens Wrath max 12 players?), i agree that it would be cool to have more decoration than making it larger again, or if you do add rooms, make it so they dont mean even longer travelling time. Also, it needs vents!

[Lava Croft]

Also, it needs vents!

Please do not add vents. Be creative:)

[Basilisco]

Also, it needs vents!

Please do not add vents. Be creative:)

add square-sectioned rabit holes.

[Ingar]

I think Proyon has enough rooms for now, my intention for pre2 was to
get a layout that is actually playable.
Number one comment is that Procyon is huge. I hadn't really planned for this huge beast, but once I got started with the Waterway things got somewhat out of control  

Also, I really can't bring myself to cutting a large piece out if it, that would
feel like like cutting into your baby and leave you with a bleeding heart.

So it will stay a big map, but that does not mean there's no improvement possible. Some thoughts:
- I made the Starchart intentionally weaponclip, it should provide cover
  when wandering through the Nexus
- The human base needs improvement, more defence to start  
  with, so it can not be rushed. Maybe add a tyrant-safe spot.
  But I think the spawn is location is better than pre1
- Add more details: some crates are nice, but I need some inspiration
for something different.
- Add some holes, shortcuts, platforms?
- There has to  be water in the waterway, I will add it but be patient

I'm  still thinking on improving on hugeness by adding some teleporters too.

Thanks to the tremulous-fr community for their comments.
thread (French)

[dretchfeed]

This is an awesome map. I can't wait to see what it's like when it's done

I also think that you need dretch sized vents.

[whitebear]

Map is great but i realy think that this needs vent system to get small aliens show up in their full potential. Also the middle thingy (map?) needs to be nocollide... that is way i got up with mara  (using the hologram as wall)

The "room" that can be accessed by jumping on those decorations should also have something to decorate... (if you don't understand the spot i am talking about i could give a screenshot)

[Ingar]

A few week have passed, most rooms are in place and I decided to move
from preview-2 to beta-1.  Screenshots and download are on my website, this time I included the map layout in the .zip file.
Download here.

Highlights of this release:
- An improved rush-proof human spawn room
- Passages around both the Human and the Alien base
- Teleporters
- Added the Generator
- Fixed the bugs found in preview-2
- A few nice spots :wink:

Have fun!

[Survivor]

Photobucket is down so i can't upload any screens. There are some textures missing. I'm presuming they're all the same one because it seems to be a light.

Also there are two serious human advantage bases which are just too biased. The one near the original human base up the ladder behind the crates and the one above the stairs near the main hall. I just have the feeling that once those are established it would be mighty hard to take them down. Tyrants can't reach, the one above the stairs is even very well covered from goon sniping. Marauders look helpless to me in the tight bend and anything lower is instadeath on the turrets/teslas.

[techhead]

I find the map to be too big, even for larger servers.
Also, the rush-proof human base is a little too rush-proof.

[Ingar]

Survivor,
remove any previous releases from your base dir,
it seems trem uses the shader file from preview2 if it is found.
(re)moving it solves the problem.

I agree the human base is too alien-proof. The camping spot is hard to crack, even by a good alien team with a few tyrants and adv goons. I've already lowered the spot somewhat (also prevents humans for getting hurt when jumping down  ) and widened the entrance. I don't think this will be enough, but it's a start.

The spot above the stairs is a different story. It's good to know about the humans camping there, I only played games where the alien base was moved over there, so basicly you had a stalemate with the humans in their basespot, and the aliens above the stairs.

Maybe I should just connect both spots with a s3 door and solve two problems at once  

techhead,
I know Procyon is a large map, some people do not seem to like big maps, others do . This will be a map for the latter. Of course, I am open for discussion, suggestions for improvements etc...

I try to play the map whenever I find it in my serverlist, in my opinion
playing is the best way to determine what has the be changed, and almost every time I gain some useful hints.

Perfection is in the eye of the beholder. I try to strive for balance. The balance of what you want to play and I want to create.

Everybody loves teaser screenshots

[Vector_Matt]

teaser screenshots[/i]

I remember seeing that spot in preview 1 and thinking how cool it would look with water in it. Must go see it in game now.

Edit: I guess the water pouring out is only in beta 2 not beta 1.

[techhead]

It is nice and big, and I myself like big maps.
However, it might be a little too big...
It also does not have much variance in height, aside from the nexus and the cathedral, there are no floors above other floors.
even those spots, the second level just leads to stairs going back down.
Instead of sprawling horizontally, why not make some tiered sections, even if you can't go up and down the short way.

[Taiyo.uk]

Overall I like the size of the map - it's not too large especially with the teleporters. My only problem is the tyrant-proof human base on the platform in the ventilation room, this makes many games last over two hours, with much of the game consisting of tyrants aimlessly charging around the vent room while the humans spam them. Perhaps changing the ladder behind the crates for stairs or an elevator might avoid this?

I can't help thinking that some vents would be great - all those little corners but they're all dead ends. A system of ductwork could give continuity to these areas while maintaining their advantage as secluded corners, but to avoid endless games where the last dretch hides in the vents, they could be made "uncampable" - they could blow anything that enters them out from a high air flow while others can be death-traps where where players get diced in fans (think alien 3) or blown into other dangerous areas - like the deep hole behind the crates at the end of the water way. This implies that some vents are extraction points - but maybe  if the vents where aliens can camp are within reach of human weapons and those that aren't have high airflow then it might work out.

http://www.taiyosventilation.kom - subterrainian ductwork installation specialists

[Stof]

Great map with only 2 problems :
- too big. No really, this is over the top. Take that map and make 3 maps out of it. No wait, make 4 maps out of it
- unbalanced bases. There is a very strong alien spot near the human base ( fortunately, since it's very close to the human base, it isn't too strong in the end ) and the balcony  is far too efficient as a human base. Although I like easy to reach Tyrant proof bases, that spot is too strong even against all other alien forms. On the other hand, the default human base placement is awful ! Far too spread out for a correct defense, armory and telenode behind a grid that blocks all bullets, lots of places for aliens to hide behind crates and get out of LOS ...

PS : Aliens should know by now that Tyrants are close to useless to attack the human base. If nearly all the alien team evolves to Tyrant in that map, they deserve a sound beating IMO.

[techhead]

Default bases in larger maps are supposed to be horrible, to encourage you to move the base.
And make the map small for frak's sake, that is everyone's problem with it.

[Stof]

Default bases in larger maps are supposed to be horrible, to encourage you to move the base.
And make the map small for frak's sake, that is everyone's problem with it.

They are not supposed to be horrible. At best, make them weak against opponent stage 3 tech. Do not make them awful.

Forcing humans to move at stage 1 makes the game longer than it should since the whole team will be working on the base move instead of attacking

[Taiyo.uk]

IMHO it's up to the mapper really, for example the default human bases on karith, transit and arachnid all need attention or relocation as they are in the middle of nowhere and poorly defended. Other good large maps have the default base is a fairly good location (not necessarily the best location, but still usable - gloom2 and nexus6 for example).

In procyon the default base can be quite strong if consolidated in the space opposite the platform, but most people choose the platform itself as it is essentially tyrant proof.

[Vector_Matt]

And make the map small for frak's sake, that is everyone's problem with it.

Not everyone dislikes the large size.
In fact the size makes it conceivable that a human builder might be able to sneak out of a base that's under attack and rebuild elsewhere, which is good.

[Stof]

The map sizes makes it also conceivable that a single alien ( Mara or Tyrant ) stalls the end game for 10 or maybe 15 minutes if needed to get a draw.

And don't get me started on egg hunts. With all those teleporters that block the radar, the huge size and lots of places to hide eggs.

[gareth]

The size is fine, really, its fine with 14 people. still needs some vents tho

[techhead]

Meant to write smaller.
At least make it more radar-friendly.

[Ingar]

With TremRadio in my ears, I release Procyon Beta 2 to the World.
The changes are mostly eye-candy and details, notable are sounds, some windows to the outside world, and, finally, "real" water in the waterway.

I made some changes to camping spots in the human spawn area, hopefully they will prevent endless stalemate games.

You can find the screenshots and download
at http://users.telenet.be/ingar/tremulous/.

The past weeks have also given me some time to think about where this is all going to. It's impossible to make Procyon smaller without breaking it. I've tried some drastic structural changes, but it just doesn't work out properly. I can't make it bigger either: I have been fighting with the limits of 3map2 and almost every change I make results in long tinkering sessions or a sacrifice of some other details.

I'm still playing with the idea of adding some vents though, I do not think
it will be impossible, I just haven't tried yet. Also, the Nexus center is confusing and makes it hard to pick the right direction, it needs  to be fixed for a final release.

So, the final version will still have some rather empty places and it won't
be smaller. If you would like to have a smaller, more trem-like map,
you will have to wait for the next one  

With some luck the next release will be the Release Candidate, so for now, hang on, and watch out for those sneaky tyrants!

Edit
Previous conclusion sounded like I was giving up on the map

[Thorn]

Well i just read your post in Tremulous.net then downloaded and tested.

Overall its a great map but an unusual bug  and some comments included but most of its visual stuff and nitpicks

Cosmetic:

I know you posted about this in the main tremulous forums but i still do not understand why. I played the map while having all the previous versions of procyon in my base folder. I loaded the map and was greeted by missing textures/shaders all over the place. Especially the waterway looked amazingly bad o.O. The particle system(?) was showing through the walls.

The following is a light. I'm not sure if thats the correct texture or if thats a missing texture.(Taken with all the previous versions deleted of course

And, as a special promise, it has an Angel.

Lonely angel?

I like the glass in the doors. Its amazing but In my personal opinion its not transparent and doesn't look like real glass. Thats just a personal opinion though. None of the glass in tremulous looks real anyway

--------

Gameflow:

The new human base looks interesting. Would definitely like to see it in action somewhere soon It looks like in a sense it encourages teamwork on the aliens team. What i mean is a dretch or basilisk helping the tyrant up

I noticed you clipped that bit in the alien base

-------

Can't think of anything else to add to my post apart from its amazing

[Ingar]

I know you posted about this in the main tremulous forums but i still do not understand why. I played the map while having all the previous versions of procyon in my base folder. I loaded the map and was greeted by missing textures/shaders all over the place. Especially the waterway looked amazingly bad o.O. The particle system(?) was showing through the walls.

The problem lies with the shader and/or particle file: throughout the release cycle I made some changes that are not backwards compatible. For some reason, the engine gives priority to the shader file of an older release and ignores the new one. In case of the water, the shader used has the same name as the texture used by the shader (procyon/waterjet) and if the wrong shader file is loaded, the texture is used instead of the shader resulting in the effect you described. I encountered this problem when I was first making the waterjets and it took me several days before I noticed that removing older releases solves this problem. I was looking for a problem with the shader, but the problem was the wrong shader was loaded.

Looks like the light has a misaligned texture :oops:.

I like the glass in the doors. Its amazing but In my personal opinion its not transparent and doesn't look like real glass.

It's TremGlass CrystalClear (tm) so it shouldn't look too real  :wink: , but it should be semi-transparent (like the screenshot on my site). If it isn't I consider it a bug.

And, as a special promise, it has an Angel.

Lonely angel?

Go sit on her head (how disrespectful!) and check the location message  

[jal]

I didn't read the previous comments on the map, so excuse me if I repeat something that has been said already (I guess so).

I've played 3 games at Procyon in FunZone, and callvoted to skip it a bunch more of times   D:

The reason is simple: Each of the three games I played had no end (Funzone has no timelimit nor SD), and, after more than 2 hours of playing, we had to end up deconing the base for being able to switch map. The map is simply too big, so aliens can never be defeated, and has the human base spot too strong, so humans can never be defeated.

That being said, the architecture helps to have interesting fights, and the looks are nice. The problem is the size and the human base. Fixing only the human base won't help enough, cause it will then make it an alien-only map, it needs both.

It can be a great map if those issues are fixed.

EDIT: I'm not sure if it's beta1 or 2 the one at FunZone, but I'm sure you can check it yourself

[Thorn]

Those games would have been beta 1. You really should read the previous posts and check beta 2 out

I'll try and hassle DVSoftware to get the new version in cycle if he hasn't already.

after more than 2 hours of playing, we had to end up deconing the base for being able to switch map.

Thats just wrong.  :evil: Grr

The map is _not_ to big. Pulse is bigger and we all love that map at Derelict don't we?

[jal]

BTW, if you take the human base, the big square room at the other side of it (and their unions, ofc), and add a pair of new hallways, you get a proper sized nice map. If you take the central atrium (Procyon shader thing) and the hallways around it, you get a second nice map of it.  

EDIT: Oh, hadn't seen your reply at the time I was writting this. I never played Pulse, so no idea, sorry.

EDIT2: Maybe "big" is not the key word. Maybe we should better think in number of routes a Granger has to egg spam. A map can be big as long as it doesn't have too many routes, so humans have the chance to hunt all eggs when coming from all routes at once.

[Delvin]

I'm downloading the new version now, but I do think it's still too big. You just can't win against the eggspam as humans... And if you leave the main fighting area for some exploring, more than half of the map is always empty. Even in ~20 player games.

I drew something quick in paint that should reduce this problem without affecting the gameplay too much (imo, at least...). Maybe it gives you at least some ideas.
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/9180/procyonimprovedmw4.jpg

Feel free to ignore all of this if it seems like a bad idea. The map just doesn't seem perfectly balanced to me yet. Oh, and I don't think I've played Pulse, so I may be missing something about big maps.

[Survivor]

What you people want are maps that are straightforward. We have so many maps where you can't even hide an egg. I applaud ingar and just hope he does something about those lame teleporters. They don't fit in the feel of the map. The rest is coming along nicely.

[jal]

It's not about being able to hide an egg or not, really. I don't like ATCS gameplay, for example, but, unfortunately, there is a size where maps get unplayable/onesided in Tremulous. I'd prefer the gameplay was fixed to remove abusive egg spaming and abusive jetpacking, but, in the meantime, there are limitations to mapping imposed by the gameplay that we must live with.

I drew something quick in paint that should reduce this problem without affecting the gameplay too much (imo, at least...). Maybe it gives you at least some ideas.
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/9180/procyonimprovedmw4.jpg

Agreed, but I would take it further:
http://jal.quakedev.com/procyonimprovedmw5.jpg