What killed Tremulous?

[tzaeru]

Well I guess there's still a few servers up on USA prime time.

But it'd be cool to get something that really felt like the successor to Tremulous!

[dGr8LookinSparky]

Well I guess there's still a few servers up on USA prime time.

But it'd be cool to get something that really felt like the successor to Tremulous!

What if the successful "successor" to Tremulous was Tremulous itself?  http://forum.grangerhub.com/t/todo-list-for-the-initial-release-of-tremulous-1-3/2581

[Loki]

Well I guess there's still a few servers up on USA prime time.

But it'd be cool to get something that really felt like the successor to Tremulous!

What if the successful "successor" to Tremulous was Tremulous itself?  http://forum.grangerhub.com/t/todo-list-for-the-initial-release-of-tremulous-1-3/2581

Good luck I guess

[Blade]

Well I guess there's still a few servers up on USA prime time.

But it'd be cool to get something that really felt like the successor to Tremulous!

What if the successful "successor" to Tremulous was Tremulous itself?  http://forum.grangerhub.com/t/todo-list-for-the-initial-release-of-tremulous-1-3/2581

You have absolutely no idea what the fuck you're doing

[jr2]

Well I guess there's still a few servers up on USA prime time.

But it'd be cool to get something that really felt like the successor to Tremulous!

What if the successful "successor" to Tremulous was Tremulous itself?  http://forum.grangerhub.com/t/todo-list-for-the-initial-release-of-tremulous-1-3/2581

You have absolutely no idea what the fuck you're doing

Dude, take your metal ass back to reddit.

[mooseberry]

Well I guess there's still a few servers up on USA prime time.

But it'd be cool to get something that really felt like the successor to Tremulous!

What if the successful "successor" to Tremulous was Tremulous itself?  http://forum.grangerhub.com/t/todo-list-for-the-initial-release-of-tremulous-1-3/2581

You have absolutely no idea what the fuck you're doing

Hm. From my limited exposure to these guys and playing their server, I would have to say they do have some ideas about what the fuck they're doing.

[Blade]

Anyone who looks at this graph and concludes their gift to Tremulous should be a gameplay fork is beyond denial

[dGr8LookinSparky]

Anyone who looks at this graph and concludes their gift to Tremulous should be a gameplay fork is beyond denial

I'm not sure what your point is regarding that graph.  Just because a trend has been occurring for years (the Tremulous population declining), and previous attempts at reviving Trem have not changed that overall trend, doesn't mean that nothing can revers that trend.

Additionally, GrangerHub's efforts are more than just game play related.  We are also working on an updated client and and updated tremded both being backwards compatible with all trem clients/servers, an updater system for the client for easy download/installation of subsequent releases (both minor and major releases), new and improved admin tools, and a ton of additional fixes/features on top of and beyond the latest public Tremulous code on Darklegion's github.com repos.  We have also been putting together a website and other infrastructure to support Tremulous developers/modders/mappers/clans/players, it is still very much a work in progress, but we have completed a lot.  We have a relatively small development team, but it is very active.

Most projects do fail (I'm not just talking about in regards to games and not just in FOSS porjects, but in general), so it is certainly easier to say that a project will fail than it is to make a project succeed.  But if that was a good reason in itself to not attempt a project, then nothing would get accomplished, at least not by the human race.

Perhaps GrangerHub will fail at reviving Tremulous, and if Tremulous was going to be dead without our attempts, then there would have been no loss as far as the rest of the world is concerned.  At the very least, that doesn't prevent us from having a good fun experience with friends in these projects, so for us it has already been a gain.  But if GrangerHub's efforts do yield success in reviving trem, well that would be a huge bonus.

I'm not saying that GrangerHub has all the answers in regards to Tremulous, and I'm not saying that we can't do things better, and I'm not saying that others can't do things better than what we are doing now, we are not perfect.  Perhaps Blade has some suggestions for improving the chances of a successful revival of Tremulous.   This is not rhetorical.  Blade (and everyone else reading this)  feel free to brainstorm suggestions for how to make a Tremulous revival more likely.  You don't have to answer right away, take some time to really think about it before posting.

This thread doesn't have to be yet another "lets bash everyone we disagree with" thread on the internet, rather maybe something constructive can be accomplished in this thread .  Additionally, civil debates, and constructive criticism are welcome and encouraged on GrangerHub's forums (http://forum.grangerhub.com/ ) , so such suggestions could be posted there as well  (not to mention those Tremulous forums are actually active) .

[Blade]

Anyone who looks at this graph and concludes their gift to Tremulous should be a gameplay fork is beyond denial

I'm not sure what your point is regarding that graph.  Just because a trend has been occurring for years (the Tremulous population declining), and previous attempts at reviving Trem have not changed that overall trend, doesn't mean that nothing can revers that trend.

Similarly, you can't prove that me shitting in a bucket and dumping it on my head wouldn't revive Tremulous.

Additionally, GrangerHub's efforts are more than just game play related.  We are also working on an updated client and and updated tremded both being backwards compatible with all trem clients/servers, an updater system for the client for easy download/installation of subsequent releases (both minor and major releases), new and improved admin tools, and a ton of additional fixes/features on top of and beyond the latest public Tremulous code on Darklegion's github.com repos.  We have also been putting together a website and other infrastructure to support Tremulous developers/modders/mappers/clans/players, it is still very much a work in progress, but we have completed a lot.  We have a relatively small development team, but it is very active.

All kinds of things even outside of the ill-conceived balance mod are just paths to nowhere:
-Pre-game Warmup http://forum.grangerhub.com/t/pre-game-warmup-an-overview/1061
-New Scoring System that accurately quantifies quality player game play in Tremulous
-Karma system: http://forum.grangerhub.com/t/the-karma-system/2234
-Playmap System: http://forum.grangerhub.com/t/playmap-system-an-overview-of-a-new-map-selection-system/1068
-Voting Enhancements: http://forum.grangerhub.com/t/an-overview-of-improving-tremulous-voting-system/1063
-UI for admin actions
-Waypoints (Drop-able markers by players and automatic ones for 'bases' and other important structures)
-Voice Commands
-Handle all player/admin reports/appeals in-game
-Scrim features

Most projects do fail (I'm not just talking about in regards to games and not just in FOSS porjects, but in general), so it is certainly easier to say that a project will fail than it is to make a project succeed.  But if that was a good reason in itself to not attempt a project, then nothing would get accomplished, at least not by the human race.

Perhaps GrangerHub will fail at reviving Tremulous, and if Tremulous was going to be dead without our attempts, then there would have been no loss as far as the rest of the world is concerned.  At the very least, that doesn't prevent us from having a good fun experience with friends in these projects, so for us it has already been a gain.  But if GrangerHub's efforts do yield success in reviving trem, well that would be a huge bonus.

Yes, you can do whatever you want with your time. It's your life. You can buy Marlon Brando's private island and try to build a space elevator out of toothpicks. But when you bill your pet project of glue and splinters as Tremulous 1.3 and put it in public as the next big thing, it's an open target.

I'm not saying that GrangerHub has all the answers in regards to Tremulous, and I'm not saying that we can't do things better, and I'm not saying that others can't do things better than what we are doing now, we are not perfect.  Perhaps Blade has some suggestions for improving the chances of a successful revival of Tremulous.   This is not rhetorical.  Blade (and everyone else reading this)  feel free to brainstorm suggestions for how to make a Tremulous revival more likely.  You don't have to answer right away, take some time to really think about it before posting.

This thread doesn't have to be yet another "lets bash everyone we disagree with" thread on the internet, rather maybe something constructive can be accomplished in this thread .  Additionally, civil debates, and constructive criticism are welcome and encouraged on GrangerHub's forums (http://forum.grangerhub.com/ ) , so such suggestions could be posted there as well  (not to mention those Tremulous forums are actually active) .

That forum is an echo chamber, your goody-goody attitude and pretzel logic shut out any reality from taking hold. What you think of as constructive criticism is just for the appearance of working things out while twisting everything into validating where you already are. You just pile on more layers. Look at what you just tried to say about the "human race."  At no point in anything I've seen from you do you seem prepared for the inconvenient reality that you may just be fundamentally wrong.

The game has more servers than players. If we were in a room together, I could wave my arms and yell that until you internalized it. As we are, you'll probably never get it. The game doesn't need a tenth version of someone's new take on a gameplay mod. It needed two basic things, and it needed them yesterday (or if not yesterday, 2 years ago when acidtu.be started for example, instead of the morass you're now in):
-A standardized working client that people could distribute
-A working QVM (like GrangerPub's now) to be spread to server admins, ideally back when there were servers

You're like someone going to the dilapidated old ruins of a beautiful mansion and going "The problem here is that the shutters were 2 inches too wide, the paint was the wrong shade of white, the roof was 5 degrees too steep," no, the problem is the house didn't have a road, nobody knew where the house was, and if they did they didn't have a key. It's not rocket science.

[your face]

same

[ULTRA Random ViruS]

You still haven't suggested any potential solutions to the current state of tremulous either, Blade.

[Blade]

I explained what's important, and it doesn't even require a bucket.

[dGr8LookinSparky]

-A standardized working client that people could distribute

Well, recently had an alpha release which includes the new client (and tremded) with features such as:
- Multiprotocol support (that is the new client can connect to any trem server from 1.1, to gpp, to 1.2, to 1.3, and an trem client can connect to the new tremded)
- The latest renderer from ioquake3 for some refreshing greatly improved graphcis over the older renderer
- An updater (this still has some bugs to work out before it is full functional, but at the moment it does tell you if your client is out of date)
- Lua support
- tons of bug fixes and enhancements

Our release page is here: https://github.com/GrangerHub/tremulous/releases

And more information about our first alpha release can be found here:

http://forum.grangerhub.com/t/thursdays-tremulous-1-3-alpha-release/3551

Keep in mind that this is an alpha release and still has issues we need to work out.  Also the 1.3 game logic isn't included in the alpha release, that will be included as part of the initial 1.3 full release that will occur near the end of April of this year.

-A working QVM (like GrangerPub's now) to be spread to server admins, ideally back when there were servers

Well, we did release the multiprotocol slacker's QVM that GrangerPub uses a little while ago: http://forum.grangerhub.com/t/public-release-of-the-code-for-the-multiprotocol-version-of-slackers-qvms/2968

Since we had the alpha release that included the multiprotocol tremded, several new independent Trem servers popped up using multiprotocol slackers.  However, that QVM is full of bugs and glitches going back to 1.1, and still has major flaws in its game play, ui, admin system, etc.  Sure it might be good enough for many of the remaining players, but it isn't going to be good enough to encourage meaningful growth in the player base.  I think that the new game logic and other important features we are working on now would greatly help with that once we have the initial full release.  But, we'll see what happens.

[ULTRA Random ViruS]

Btw I told cron that I won't put the T1.3 client as the "recommended" client until the T1.3 client is:

-more stable (At least to the point that a crash is unpredictable and happens rarely enough that I feel confident that it won't crash while playing so at least, it won't crash once every 20 hours of gaming),
-and more useful than tremfusion (could have alias, delay, three-option download prompts, cel shading, dynamic shadows that actually work with the BSP map and not just sun lighting etc.) Honest opinion.

Currently my recommended download still remains as the 'Aussie assault client' installer - which is really just tremfusion with 1.1 installer since patching tremfusion over tremulous is a bit gimmicky and is still recommended over stock client

[Szerszeni]

Damn I loved this game. i played this game whem i was 13 years old and had a blast. Now I am super nostalgic about it. I am studyin Design of interactive entertainment and think about Trem a lot latley. Can some old gurd tell me the Condensed version why trem died? the most important aspects that led to the demise of Trem?

Thx 

[SamOz]

Damn I loved this game. i played this game whem i was 13 years old and had a blast. Now I am super nostalgic about it. I am studyin Design of interactive entertainment and think about Trem a lot latley. Can some old gurd tell me the Condensed version why trem died? the most important aspects that led to the demise of Trem?

Thx 

A concise summing up would be "Too many asswipes"

Tremulous community had a bad reputation for being overly cursed with trolls and hax users. It still does. If Quake gaming communities were a city, Tremulous is the part of town that attracted it's unfair share of the bad apples.

[Macey]

Damn I loved this game. i played this game whem i was 13 years old and good results with crazy bulk a blast. Now I am super nostalgic about it. I am studyin Design of interactive entertainment and think about Trem a lot latley. Can some old gurd tell me the Condensed version why trem died? the most important aspects that led to the demise of Trem?

Thx 

A concise summing up would be "Too many asswipes"

Tremulous community had a bad reputation for being overly cursed with trolls and hax users. It still does. If Quake gaming communities were a city, Tremulous is the part of town that attracted it's unfair share of the bad apples.

I have to agree with this. It didn't bother me too much personally, but I didn't like it for the reason that it bothered and drove away so many others.

[Aelita]

don't forget... hendrich killed trem

[CreatureofHell]

don't forget... hendrich killed trem

I remember it well, I was there when it happened...

[your face]

whoaaa

[Bullseye]

I think when AoD and OPP died tremulous died

[Wolf84]

Tremulous eventually became harsh to new players.

[Aelita]

 

[{SGA}IronClaw]

PRO PLAYERS KILLED TREM

[Hendrich]

Tremulous is like an alien base.

The original people who built it did the best they could with the resources they had. But they slowly left, and over time the base was sniped and ambushed. So varied people, with varied intentions, scrambled to rebuild it.

People preferred the original layout. Some saw the acid tubes on the ground and just wanted them moved. Some wanted a complete revamp, like building a forward FOB in the middle of ATCS. Some opted to switch to the other team and start anew.

However, the core issue is that none of these options worked out in the end. Doing nothing meant inevitable loss. People stopped spawning as Grangers to do basic maintenance. People tried multiple times to revamp everything, only to waste time and effort feeding the other team via poor decision-making. It got so bad, people started to teamkill each other and forgot why they even rebuilt at all. Even the people who started anew never got to build a base that was as successful as the OG aliens.

What confused everyone was that Tremulous was never 'killed'. But it did die many times. And it came back just as many times- but the players did not. An alien base without it's grangers spamming acid tubes, players sniping as ADV Dragons or clan members sharing credits to Tyrant rush the hallways- is no 'proper' alien base at all.

Tremulous as we remember has left, but the memories we've had will always stick around. Tremulous now sits quiet. Waiting for the few, rare days people remember to join back in.

 

[your face]

[Aelita]

so in short. Hendrich killed trem