Dragoon Pounce

[Rippy]

@temple

Um, unfair assumption mb? I've been playing for a couple months now, and dragoons are my weapon of choice. (well, evo of choice I guess?) Also, you don't seem to understand what charging in midair does: it's like marauder bunnyhopping, it allows you to gain tons of speed but it's near impossible to turn. THAT'S what I think is unfair. It allows goons to gain a huge amount of speed in straight hallways when, imo, they shouldn't be able to. Stopping midair charging wouldn't in any way affect a goon's agility during combat, because during combat you aren't hopping in a straight line. You're turning after every pounce, and there's a delay on that regardless of whether or not you already charged a pounce.

So, removing the midair chargeup would just prevent goons from gaining rediculous speed in straight lines. They'd still perform just as well when fighting or escaping.

Good point for #2 though, never thought of that. An actual knockdown would be cool, assuming the human gets up fairly quickly, put that would require more anims and game mechanics that wouldn't be priority for quite a while. I suppose it could cause a sort of 1 second disorientation ala adv basi (with the drugged up crosshair). Either way, I just find it looks odd when goons run into hummies as though the humans were brick walls o_O

Anyway, I'd just appreciate that you don't immediately assume that I'm a newbie who never plays aliens. When I play as dragoon I rank in the top 1/4 of the game fairly consistently; I mean, I still get owned by the pros/semi-pros, but doesn't everyone? Just reminding you that I do have the dragoon's best interest at heart, I'm not some human who can't fight off a goon and so thinks it must be nerfed

[temple]

@temple

Um, unfair assumption mb? I've been playing for a couple months now, and dragoons are my weapon of choice. (well, evo of choice I guess?) Also, you don't seem to understand what charging in midair does: it's like marauder bunnyhopping, it allows you to gain tons of speed but it's near impossible to turn. THAT'S what I think is unfair. It allows goons to gain a huge amount of speed in straight hallways when, imo, they shouldn't be able to. Stopping midair charging wouldn't in any way affect a goon's agility during combat, because during combat you aren't hopping in a straight line. You're turning after every pounce, and there's a delay on that regardless of whether or not you already charged a pounce.

I don't see what wrong with goons having speed on straight halls.  

What I see is goons getting lagged between landing and pouncing and not being able to move around.  Goons are already huge, without quick reflexes, they will shot to pieces in close fights.  Basically, once they get close they have to kill or pray there is no delay between pounces if they have to land to charge.  

Changing pounce would be a decrease in goon speed.  I've played with you but I think you need to get close with some chainguns or pulse rifles and see if goons can afford to move slower.

[next_ghost]

@temple

Um, unfair assumption mb? I've been playing for a couple months now, and dragoons are my weapon of choice. (well, evo of choice I guess?) Also, you don't seem to understand what charging in midair does: it's like marauder bunnyhopping, it allows you to gain tons of speed but it's near impossible to turn. THAT'S what I think is unfair. It allows goons to gain a huge amount of speed in straight hallways when, imo, they shouldn't be able to. Stopping midair charging wouldn't in any way affect a goon's agility during combat, because during combat you aren't hopping in a straight line. You're turning after every pounce, and there's a delay on that regardless of whether or not you already charged a pounce.

So, removing the midair chargeup would just prevent goons from gaining rediculous speed in straight lines. They'd still perform just as well when fighting or escaping.

Good point for #2 though, never thought of that. An actual knockdown would be cool, assuming the human gets up fairly quickly, put that would require more anims and game mechanics that wouldn't be priority for quite a while. I suppose it could cause a sort of 1 second disorientation ala adv basi (with the drugged up crosshair). Either way, I just find it looks odd when goons run into hummies as though the humans were brick walls o_O

Anyway, I'd just appreciate that you don't immediately assume that I'm a newbie who never plays aliens. When I play as dragoon I rank in the top 1/4 of the game fairly consistently; I mean, I still get owned by the pros/semi-pros, but doesn't everyone? Just reminding you that I do have the dragoon's best interest at heart, I'm not some human who can't fight off a goon and so thinks it must be nerfed

Do you realize that goons have only 200hp? That's exactly 1 1/3 RIFLE magazine! Put 2 riflemen that can shoot in a long corridor and no goon will ever go through in one piece without using midair-charged pounce.

[MadMan2k]

You can't bite and chomp. Before the change biting mid-pounce canceled the pounce damage and after the change you just can't bite while pouncing (a client-side change is required so that the bite sound doesn't play, but even though you hear it you're not biting and no one else hears it). That was another reason for the change, no one actually understood what was going on and now it's simpler: pounce when you're far away and bite when you're not because they can't be used together.

this explains why I suck so much with goon latly. I always used to pounce and then keep chomping.
I think its a bad idea to prevent this from working, since chomping while flying feels natural and is also the behaviuor of all the other alien classes. (ok tyrant actually cant really fly)
If you feel that the chomp-pounce sued to be imbalanced, I think you should find another solution.
But I would say it was ok, since it required quite some skill to take advantage of it...

[Rippy]

Do you realize that goons have only 200hp? That's exactly 1 1/3 RIFLE magazine! Put 2 riflemen that can shoot in a long corridor and no goon will ever go through in one piece without using midair-charged pounce.

Well, in my experience goons are strong, if not overpowered. What's 1 and 1/3 rifle clips when you can one-hit kill from a good 8 or 10 meters away? Only difference is that the rifle takes a good 5 and a half seconds, 1.5 seconds of which is complete helplessness, and that's only when you're good enough to make nearly every shot hit a pouncing goon.* The goon just needs to aim a pounce at the human's head and boom, instagib.

As for escaping, you just do the usual alien strategy of running away when you're at half hp. After your first pounce, you're far enough to be safe from everything exept the rifle, lasgun and mass driver. And if a pursuing lasgunner gets you, it's not because you aren't allowed to run away fast enough, it's because you either waited too long before escaping, or someone laid a sudden shotgun/flame/pulse/luci on you, and then it's only fair that you not get out alive.

Besides, temple, you've ignored what I said last post: that removing the midair chargeup in no way changes a goon's effectiveness in close combat (which I think was the whole argument of your last post). In close combat, your pounces are short and so there's simply no time to charge one in midair. Besides, midair chargeups only help you when travelling in a straight line: if you turn significantly to either side, there's a delay before you can pounce, regardless of whether or not you charged up. So the only situation this would prevent is that of a goon soaring down a straight area at rediculous speed. Even without a mid-air chargeup, a goon can still pounce fast enough in a straight space to avoid any human simply because the goon gets the full pounce value of his 1 second chargeup (no obstacles, doors or corners to cut it short). A lasgun might get 50 damage in, but then the goon is around the corner, leaving the human with no hope of catching up.

Of course, goons are less effective in s2 due to helmets and heavier weapons, but a headpounce+headchomp kills most anything and can be done in a couple seconds. I dunno, I just find that pounce-and-run tactics boost my score a ton, and it's not hard to guard a whole entrance to the hummie base if you just change where you're pouncing from every time.


*If those figures are innacurate please don't hold it against me. I don't have the stats thread bookmarked on my Ubuntu machine and the stupid search function is useless, so those stats are from the best of my memory.

[temple]

Do you realize that goons have only 200hp? That's exactly 1 1/3 RIFLE magazine! Put 2 riflemen that can shoot in a long corridor and no goon will ever go through in one piece without using midair-charged pounce.

Well, in my experience goons are strong, if not overpowered. What's 1 and 1/3 rifle clips when you can one-hit kill from a good 8 or 10 meters away? Only difference is that the rifle takes a good 5 and a half seconds, 1.5 seconds of which is complete helplessness, and that's only when you're good enough to make nearly every shot hit a pouncing goon.* The goon just needs to aim a pounce at the human's head and boom, instagib.

As for escaping, you just do the usual alien strategy of running away when you're at half hp. After your first pounce, you're far enough to be safe from everything exept the rifle, lasgun and mass driver. And if a pursuing lasgunner gets you, it's not because you aren't allowed to run away fast enough, it's because you either waited too long before escaping, or someone laid a sudden shotgun/flame/pulse/luci on you, and then it's only fair that you not get out alive.

Besides, temple, you've ignored what I said last post: that removing the midair chargeup in no way changes a goon's effectiveness in close combat (which I think was the whole argument of your last post). In close combat, your pounces are short and so there's simply no time to charge one in midair. Besides, midair chargeups only help you when travelling in a straight line: if you turn significantly to either side, there's a delay before you can pounce, regardless of whether or not you charged up. So the only situation this would prevent is that of a goon soaring down a straight area at rediculous speed. Even without a mid-air chargeup, a goon can still pounce fast enough in a straight space to avoid any human simply because the goon gets the full pounce value of his 1 second chargeup (no obstacles, doors or corners to cut it short). A lasgun might get 50 damage in, but then the goon is around the corner, leaving the human with no hope of catching up.

Of course, goons are less effective in s2 due to helmets and heavier weapons, but a headpounce+headchomp kills most anything and can be done in a couple seconds. I dunno, I just find that pounce-and-run tactics boost my score a ton, and it's not hard to guard a whole entrance to the hummie base if you just change where you're pouncing from every time.


*If those figures are innacurate please don't hold it against me. I don't have the stats thread bookmarked on my Ubuntu machine and the stupid search function is useless, so those stats are from the best of my memory.

In the time it takes for you to land and charge a long pounce, you can be dead.

Do you know when most goons die?  Its trying to escape.  I'm sorry, I know its a small change.  But it would slow goons down and goons need speed.

I play human and aliens a lot and I can kill goons or chase them away if they don't kill me out right.  Most of the time when I'm playing a goon, its the pounce, turn, pounce combo that helps.  Every second you are in line of sight or still is time the other guy can kill you.  It takes a 1-2 seconds to get a full pounce (I learned this the hard way) and you can't afford that when you are fleeing.  Likewise for humans, getting of that last cycle of chaingun fire or couple of pulse rifle blasts will be easier.

As for close range fighting, you have to have your attack/escape plan mapped out mentally.  Aerial charging just helps with not getting killed, not some much for killing.  Just use your tactic, if you kill something, fine. If not, you are still alive.  But that pounce, land, charge, pounce will get goons killed.

Human can kill goons already if you know how to engage them.  Its not like you can just pounce long range and get out long range.  Its usually some turns or structures to get past.  I just see a lot of goons in small places getting cut to shreds by the time they lift off to run. I see goons getting kiilled right as that escape pounce lifts off or when they hit a turn.

[hodge]

Bah, like most things in tremulous the goon pounce is fine how it is. Causing damage for holding down a jump ability is a bad idea and just doesn't make sense. Almost every goon player is aware that they can easily be taken down by a human team that works together (and that is without the help of any turrets), and that the humans are putting themselves in a bad situation if they camp poorly (something that seems to occur alot in this game). I find that the most experience goon players are the ones not that try to use the non-existent pounce-chomp combo (thanks Norfenstein for busting this myth.) but the ones that master the goon basic chomp for close combat use and use the pounch for mid-range attack. Changing the pounce would just annoy the game's players.

I would also like to say is that I find the biggest mistake most humans make on s1 is that often a whole team will camp and give the map entire to the alien just because someone spotted a single goon. I find that a good way to kill a goon is to work together with you team and lure the goon to an open area on the map putting him in a very bad situation where he is likely to be killed before he escapes (if the human team can hit a big moving target).

[holyknight]

you also can kill a dragoon sometimes easily  
I fought with this dragoon (I won't tell you the name, I don't know why...) with a rifle, and I think he was pretty wounded by the turrets he attacked. But in Nexus six, in the right hallway, I shot at him always and when he tried to pounce at me, I just moved sideways, moved back, and shot at him again. I did that thing few more times and he soon died. I got a lot of money  
but of course, if there are better goon players (I suck with goons  :-? ) then they WILL be able to stop that trick. But I'm just saying that it IS sometimes possible with help of turrets and other teammates.
And I do agree that camping is a bad idea when you see a goon, even though I'm the first person to just rush back to base when I see a goon and yell out "GOON!"  :oops: . But the other players keep attacking and dying until it dies. And sometimes I help too   . But the point is, that one goon couldn't be able to take few humans (unless they are noobs) and all humans have to do is keep moving around, or doing math to figure out when to dodge  :wink:

PS, you can charge while you already pounced on the ground and is in midair?

[kozak6]

Yep, you can charge up the pounce while you are in midair.

[hodge]

And I do agree that camping is a bad idea when you see a goon, even though I'm the first person to just rush back to base when I see a goon and yell out "GOON!"  :oops: . But the other players keep attacking and dying until it dies. And sometimes I help too   . But the point is, that one goon couldn't be able to take few humans (unless they are noobs) and all humans have to do is keep moving around, or doing math to figure out when to dodge  :wink:

PS, you can charge while you already pounced on the ground and is in midair?

Yes, goons can be very easy to kill especially if they are lagging or if the goon is trying to act like a mara. Goons have the highest hp at s1 and s2 but they are also the biggest alien and I find them much easier to kill then maras.

One thing that I think more players should be aware of is that goons and maras are great for taking down a base and once your team starts camping the aliens will most likely camp directly outside your base waiting for any easy kill that might try to sneak out. killing evolved aliens can be very tricky for humans at s1 since you don't have helmets, but I find that most times you should try tame the aliens and take control of the map's hotspots to your advantage so your team will have more control at s2.  

As holyknight said the a good way to make yourself a hard target is to dance :-).

[Luskan]

you also can kill a dragoon sometimes easily  
I fought with this dragoon (I won't tell you the name, I don't know why...) with a rifle, and I think he was pretty wounded by the turrets he attacked. But in Nexus six, in the right hallway, I shot at him always and when he tried to pounce at me, I just moved sideways, moved back, and shot at him again. I did that thing few more times and he soon died.

Aye, I love being a Dragoon and it definatly doesn't need its pounce changed.. you can own with them but if your having a sucky day or are not that skilled you can get owned or.. if they are good at twisting and turning >_<...

I've been taken down by a bunch of humans so fast i've wondered what the hell happened. (Just shows a team really is needed in a team game =p )

[Rippy]

@temple: I told you that a dragoon's maneuverability is unaffected, and that any alien should run when reduced to 1/2 hp, but you just go on about how goons get shot when fleeing and they need to be maneuverable. If you're going to selectively ignore things like that, there's really no point in arguing.

I mean, not that it's a critical issue or anything, I just don't think goons should be able to soar down corridors. If this were corrected a year from now, when tons of other stuff has been added, I'd be happy.

[temple]

@temple: I told you that a dragoon's maneuverability is unaffected, and that any alien should run when reduced to 1/2 hp, but you just go on about how goons get shot when fleeing and they need to be maneuverable. If you're going to selectively ignore things like that, there's really no point in arguing.

I mean, not that it's a critical issue or anything, I just don't think goons should be able to soar down corridors. If this were corrected a year from now, when tons of other stuff has been added, I'd be happy.

I guess we just disagree.  I think goon speed is critical, you think its too powerful.  If anything, I think goons (not advanced goons) do too much damage pre-s3.  But the speed is too important to me right now.

[Rippy]

@temple: I told you that a dragoon's maneuverability is unaffected, and that any alien should run when reduced to 1/2 hp, but you just go on about how goons get shot when fleeing and they need to be maneuverable. If you're going to selectively ignore things like that, there's really no point in arguing.

I mean, not that it's a critical issue or anything, I just don't think goons should be able to soar down corridors. If this were corrected a year from now, when tons of other stuff has been added, I'd be happy.

I guess we just disagree.  I think goon speed is critical, you think its too powerful.  If anything, I think goons (not advanced goons) do too much damage pre-s3.  But the speed is too important to me right now.

I noticed that too. Headpounces 1hit kill ANY s1 human, and that's deadly if you can do it consistently. Meanwhile, the s1 hummie weapons take at least several seconds to kill a goon, and by that time you've headpounced and ran.

[kevlarman]

I noticed that too. Headpounces 1hit kill ANY s1 human, and that's deadly if you can do it consistently. Meanwhile, the s1 hummie weapons take at least several seconds to kill a goon, and by that time you've headpounced and ran.

there is no such thing as a headpounce:

Code: [Select]


qboolean CheckPounceAttack( gentity_t *ent )
{
//snip
G_Damage( traceEnt, ent, ent, forward, tr.endpos, damage,
      DAMAGE_NO_KNOCKBACK|DAMAGE_NO_LOCDAMAGE, MOD_LEVEL3_POUNCE );
//snip
}


[Stof]

I noticed that too. Headpounces 1hit kill ANY s1 human, and that's deadly if you can do it consistently. Meanwhile, the s1 hummie weapons take at least several seconds to kill a goon, and by that time you've headpounced and ran.

there is no such thing as a headpounce:

Code: [Select]


qboolean CheckPounceAttack( gentity_t *ent )
{
//snip
G_Damage( traceEnt, ent, ent, forward, tr.endpos, damage,
      DAMAGE_NO_KNOCKBACK|DAMAGE_NO_LOCDAMAGE, MOD_LEVEL3_POUNCE );
//snip
}


That's the worse, you can onehitkill with a leg hit pounce.

[Survivor]

Doesn't pounce do 99 max damage and no damage multipliers thus making onehit kills impossible? Headchomps are a different thing though.

[Stof]

Doesn't pounce do 99 max damage and no damage multipliers thus making onehit kills impossible? Headchomps are a different thing though.

This is not how it feels when you play on the Alien Wrath server.

[kevlarman]

pounce does 100 damage (fully charged) on a regular goon, and 115 on an adv goon, since there is no location damage, wearing any armor will save your life. this is why you always go for armor before a weapon unless you seriously know what you are doing, otherwise a goon can instantly kill you.

[Norfenstein]

and 115 on an adv goon

Hundred damage on both actually, advanced just flies a little faster.

Code: [Select]

Code:

qboolean CheckPounceAttack( gentity_t *ent )
{
//snip
G_Damage( traceEnt, ent, ent, forward, tr.endpos, damage,
      DAMAGE_NO_KNOCKBACK|DAMAGE_NO_LOCDAMAGE, MOD_LEVEL3_POUNCE );
//snip
}

That's interesting because the pounce was supposed to have knockback. Extra knockback even:

Code: [Select]


void G_Damage( gentity_t *targ, gentity_t *inflictor, gentity_t *attacker,
         vec3_t dir, vec3_t point, int damage, int dflags, int mod )
{
  ...
  // ...and for goon pouncing
  if( mod == MOD_LEVEL3_POUNCE )
    knockback *= 3;
  ...
}That was so you don't bounce off a painsaw wielding battlesuit and get bisected because you're still in range but can't react fast enough to save yourself. I guess if I never noticed the nonchange it wasn't that important (or I just haven't fought as many good painsawers lately).

[kevlarman]

and 115 on an adv goon

Hundred damage on both actually, advanced just flies a little faster.

hm, looks like you're right, i could have sworn i saw a 115 in there somwhere.
edit: about the painsaw thing, i ussually just abuse the rediculous range goons have when backing up, if i'm pouncing someone, i'm not sure i want to push them closer to the turrets, though the ability to knock a human into a corner would be interesting.

[|Nex|TrEmMa]

I guess if I never noticed the nonchange it wasn't that important (or I just haven't fought as many good painsawers lately).

You aren't playing on AKKA enough <3.

[Rippy]

Hahah, that's even worse, you don't even have to aim your pounce. Even with armour, it's usually easy enough to get another chomp in right after the pounce.

I disagree with the "armour before weapon" thing. I wait until I have enough for armour and  moderately good weapon (usually shotgun, occasionally painsaw or lasgun) at once. Armour is nearly useless without a good weapon, and vice-versa. Unless you're pretty skilled at humans, I find it's best to save up for both.

[kevlarman]

armor is useful to keep goons from singling you out in a group for a pounce, and to drastically extend your life against noob dretches. saving for weapons and armor at the same time is also fine (though it makes it really easy to feed), my point was that you should never get a weapon without armor unless you seriously know what you are doing.

[PHREAK]

While I generaly agree with you kevlarman, It all depends who your opponents are.
If I'm playing against very good players, I don't botter with the armor at s1 since it wont do any good against them.
S2 is a whole different animal, yet i'd opt out for helmet anythime before grabbing larmor( if funds become scarse) and my trusty shotty.

[kevlarman]

While I generaly agree with you kevlarman, It all depends who your opponents are.
If I'm playing against very good players, I don't botter with the armor at s1 since it wont do any good against them.
S2 is a whole different animal, yet i'd opt out for helmet anythime before grabbing larmor( if funds become scarse) and my trusty shotty.

i completely agree about getting helmet before armor, and since helmet is enough to save you from a pounce, i can see the logic in getting a gun before armor (i would chose to get armor before a shotty, but that has more to do with my (lack of) aim), i still prefer to go out with armor s1, because it is really easy to pounce a naked human, but i have skipped armor in favor of a shotgun before against skilled players.

[Stof]

I always take armory at s1 if possible : attacking an alien base without is nearly impossible because acid tubes just do too much damage.

Also, Dretches are far less dangerous when you have armor and you are standing on somethings above the ground. For example, stand on a egg and dretches will have a much more difficult time hitting you in the head Then armor because very useful.