Author Topic: Tremulous - neatly balanced , or neatly broken ?  (Read 5540 times)

Stakhanov

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Tremulous - neatly balanced , or neatly broken ?
« on: September 01, 2006, 02:16:59 am »
(This should have been a reply to the Sudden Death thread , but it grew too long obviously :P)

I think the game gives the illusion of balance. To me , it feels broken on many levels - but maybe I just can't appreciate its weird mechanics.

Just like both teams can not be compared easily , game balance cannot be judged so well. If you look at game outcomes , it seems balanced. If you look at kills , the humans seem to have a slight advantage.

If you play the game , the difference is obvious. Humans have overpowered low-skill gear , and aliens have overpowered high-skill abilities. An clever dretch might manage to destroy a single exposed turret by circlestrafing it , if no human is around ; any but the dumbest human can destroy defenses and critical buildings of the usually deserted alien base , either with his no ammo blaster or his main weapon , without taking significant damage (running into tubes makes a vanilla human lose 5-10 hps , while running into turrets kills a vanilla dretch in a split second)

Shooting large aliens doesn't take much skill , the contribution to the team is the same regardless of the skill level. I never saw anyone successfully duelling a tyrant with a rifle or blaster , though I have killed some that way - with sheer luck , just because they didn't master their hit&run technique perfectly , or disregarded their survival while fighting. The only real difference is against the lower alien classes , up to adv marauder. Even then , aliens usually die due to their own mistakes , than due to human skill.

Aliens however , need much skill to effectively score kills (especially through base defenses) when the odds are not ridiculously stacked (vanilla human fighting a dragoon alone)
Most of the new aliens get kills from the deadly "fallout" of other skilled aliens (finishing humans off with luck) , and cannot properly fight otherwise (often accused of "feeding" since they are frustrated to score no kills)

Indeed , headshots do most of the "useful" damage (that which is not likely to be healed moments later) and they require luck and/or skill , in a very counter-intuitive fashion. 1 headshot + any other contact is enough to instantly kill a vanilla human , but dretches running at leg level and not knowing how to score headshots will require 5 legshots to kill , assuming the human does not use the medikit - so he can take up to 9 legshots before he dies , or up to 5 normal hits , and it gets worse with armor. Meanwhile , a dretch dies from 5-6 rifle hits. Newbie aliens are bound to feed if they do anything else than waiting on a remote dark corner.

The difference is more obvious with dragoons :
-A newbie might manage to have 3 evo points when the humans reach stage 2 , and evolve to a dragoon. He may not know , however , that the pulse rifle will kill him in a second or 2. Nor does he know that the lasgunner brings his doom if he has less than 150 hps and cannot manage to kill him fast. He might think that his 200 hps will let him attack turrets , but to his horror they collapse before he can react , and he dies fleeing - here goes his last hope to contribute.
-An elite dragoon is a different story , instant kill with well-timed pounce/headchomps on any stage 1 human , and turrets or other human buildings vulnerable to his clever tactical analysis. I've seen dragoons manage to kill battlesuit chaingunners with sheer skill.

Of course , nothing is safe from a highly skilled adv marauder. Not only they are nigh unkillable (not giving humans any credits , ever) but they are a permanent threat and quickly dispatch those daring enough to actually attack the alien base. Players below the "1337" threshold can only master the first of these skills(so the net contribution to the team is not great)

Another reason Tremulous games are so long is that the alien base is excessively flexible , and the human base excessively strong. Think of a StarCraft game where the zerg can build hatcheries for free , and the terrans can build bunkers for free. It can only end in a dynamic stalemate , where striking the enemy base gives them the advantage , but is necessary to win.

Like it or not , Natural Selection is an important reference if Tremulous is ever upgraded or rebalanced. This game shares some of its issues , but has answered others. As I wrote on the silly Tremulous vs Natural Selection thread , one of NS's strong points is that players of any skill can contribute to their team's victory if they bother to communicate or just listen. It is possible to "feed" the enemy team there as well - but both teams have to move out of their bases to not suffer from imminent , inevitable defeat. Unlike in Tremulous , exploring and exploiting the whole map is necessary to fare well.

Highly skilled Fades are terribly overpowered , more so than in Tremulous. Think of a cross between adv marauder and dragoon - with none of their weak points. Surely it is thrilling to play as a Fade - but it is not funny to stand no chance whatsoever as a vanilla marine (even upgraded)

Still , teamwork works in NS. Players can support each other and not fear TKs so much. Unskilled players can safely and easily build - they cannot possibly harm their team doing so. Skilled players can either fight on their own (a trend I dislike) or lead others in daring offensives.

Marines run slower and cannot easily dodge attacks like in Tremulous , while aliens die faster to accurate gunfire. Besides skulk bunnyhopping , natural skills like aiming and stealth are emphasized.

Both sides are not required to kill the enemy to grow in strength , since resources are extracted for both individual and collective upgrades. NS succeeds at integrating strategy into a first person shooter thanks to this.

I admit that Tremulous will need much work to be fixed (that is , change for the better and not grow new bugs or shoddy tactics) but it is worth it.
I would even contribute to such an effort if asked.

Survivor

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Tremulous - neatly balanced , or neatly broken ?
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2006, 08:10:18 am »
Generally everything you mentioned is the same in Tremulous, but in a different way. I could go past every point and explain but tbh most points have been discussed in detail in other topics.
Just remember that trem isn't ns, it has a different gameplay where you will need to learn new things and thus not the same qualities and skills are needed as in ns.
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next_ghost

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Tremulous - neatly balanced , or neatly broken ?
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2006, 09:15:32 am »
Tremulous balance looks like this:
newbie humans <<< newbie aliens
mediocre humans ~ mediocre aliens
1337 humans >>>>>>>>>>>>> 1337 aliens
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kozak6

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Tremulous - neatly balanced , or neatly broken ?
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2006, 04:42:39 pm »
You do have some good points.

It seems to me that newbie humans>>>>>>>newbie aliens.

Newbie dretches just feed and feed and feed, and don't go for headbites either.  This generally catapults a human team to S3 real quick.

PIE

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Tremulous - neatly balanced , or neatly broken ?
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2006, 05:43:31 pm »
Mostly good points IMHO.
I did kill a tyrant with the blaster the other day as a basic human... it was glorious!.. It also took about 3 hours... and if he had given up and ran it would have been a huge waste of my time..
I do wish there could be some way for noobs to explore or help without feeding or interfering... and I think there needs to be a little more incentive for humans to come out.. too often do I see humans pushed back by waves of dretches to the point where they camp and get destroyed in S3 because they never seem to be able to break out.

Survivor

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Tremulous - neatly balanced , or neatly broken ?
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2006, 06:03:43 pm »
Quote from: "PIE"
I do wish there could be some way for noobs to explore or help without feeding or interfering...


Spectate and support. And you can't help without interfering...

 
Quote from: "PIE"
and I think there needs to be a little more incentive for humans to come out.. too often do I see humans pushed back by waves of dretches to the point where they camp and get destroyed in S3 because they never seem to be able to break out.


Humans want to get out but can't because the aliens won't let them. So there is no need for another incentive.
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PIE

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Tremulous - neatly balanced , or neatly broken ?
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2006, 06:08:45 pm »
Quote from: "Survivor"

Spectate and support. And you can't help without interfering...

... very true

Quote from: "Survivor"

Humans want to get out but can't because the aliens won't let them. So there is no need for another incentive.

I didn't really mean like give them a cookie for coming out.. I meant more like.. instead of it being hopeless, make it possible.

Survivor

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Tremulous - neatly balanced , or neatly broken ?
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2006, 06:27:21 pm »
Humans can get out if they used slight tactics like teamwork  :wink:
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PIE

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Tremulous - neatly balanced , or neatly broken ?
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2006, 06:41:22 pm »
Quote from: "Survivor"
Humans can get out if they used slight tactics like teamwork  :wink:

Dretch rush... then you get pinned by goons... they should be able to get out at S2.. but usually feeding makes the aliens a bit stronger by then and they just end up giving up and camping..
You shouldn't have to require such good teamwork if the aliens don't really have to use teamwork to keep them in the base. Once again though.. good players are always an exception. And the map can help or hurt humans a lot more than aliens it would seem. Some maps just become campfests, while others humans have a better time on... aliens pretty much have an ok time on any map.

Survivor

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Tremulous - neatly balanced , or neatly broken ?
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2006, 09:08:18 pm »
Quote from: "PIE"
Quote from: "Survivor"
Humans can get out if they used slight tactics like teamwork  :wink:

Dretch rush... then you get pinned by goons... they should be able to get out at S2.. but usually feeding makes the aliens a bit stronger by then and they just end up giving up and camping..


The slight teamwork i'm talking about is shooting at the same alien at the same time, that wouldn't be high level tactics now would it. And goons are like tyrants, overfeared. They are good at s1 with their headchomps. But I solo them sometimes and if you've got straferoom you can actually take one on 1 vs 1 with as little as a light armour. Naked could be done but well, that edges more towards feeding.
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PIE

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Tremulous - neatly balanced , or neatly broken ?
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2006, 09:31:36 pm »
Quote from: "Survivor"

The slight teamwork i'm talking about is shooting at the same alien at the same time, that wouldn't be high level tactics now would it.

No that requires ESP.. ofcourse everyone could lock onto a common target.. but say 1 target becomes a bigger threat , they all have to switch to that target. This could happen quite a few times.. My main point is.. where is this mirrored on the alien side? Where is the dynamic there?
Yeah I know naked humans can kill goons etc.. but you all seem to think every server is full of good players. I'm telling you what I see on average servers happening most of the time.

Survivor

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« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2006, 10:09:15 pm »
My saying of 1 vs 1 ing goons is possible is to show they are as overfeared as the tyrant sometimes. And 1 target becoming a bigger threat at the most constitutes 3 people differing their target to take care. What I am saying is that they should together take down the aliens one by one since they as a single player obviously lack the power to do so.

The mirror on the alien side isn't actually exact. Taking down a reasonable human base either requires brute force or teamwork for example. And the brute force only becomes available at s3 for the aliens same as the brute force for taking down aliens comes with pulse/helmet at s2.
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MadMan2k

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Tremulous - neatly balanced , or neatly broken ?
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2006, 03:56:57 pm »
fully agree with Stakhanov; tremulous is horribly broken gameplaywise but it is less obvious because the fights are mostly balanced.

Quote from: "PIE"

You shouldn't have to require such good teamwork if the aliens don't really have to use teamwork to keep them in the base

If ff is on its not like aliens dont need teamworkt its more like they cant. You know Tyrant gives 100dmg per slash and if you accidently hit the other huge tyrant instead of that small human it gives the human more advantage than you.

Therefore I usall keep back if I see an other tyrant getting owned instead of rushing in and finishing the chaingunner.