Author Topic: Chompers UI mod on gamearena (Read 35188 times)

kevlarman · « **Reply #60 on:** January 29, 2007, 08:28:31 pm »

Quote from: "DarkRogue"

However I would like to point out while your modification is a minor one that the Trem Devs agree does nothing excessive to help a client the GA company might be looking at it from the stance of 'better to ban the lot of possibilities than risk letting in the bad', in the case of UI mods while alien crosshair is a joke, one has to admit the human persistent radar HUD is an extreme advantage BUT using the whole 'Q3 set it up so personal UI huds could be used so it's not a cheat' opens the door for the use of ANY hud including the vastly unfair radar UI for humans.

Not taking sides on this issue just pointing out a tidbit of information that seems to have been over looked in the shit flinging.

it's impossible to add a permanent radar to the human hud without circumventing the game's cheat protections system, the HUD component for the radar is _always_ on the human hud, but it refuses to draw itself unless you are wearing a helmet. Simply adding crosshairs or rearranging the positions of your health/ammo/etc. doesn't require any cheating, and if the devs intended to make custom huds cheating, they could have marked cg_hudfiles CVAR_CHEAT.

DarkRogue · « **Reply #61 on:** January 29, 2007, 09:16:22 pm »

Quote from: "kevlarman"

Quote from: "DarkRogue"
However I would like to point out while your modification is a minor one that the Trem Devs agree does nothing excessive to help a client the GA company might be looking at it from the stance of 'better to ban the lot of possibilities than risk letting in the bad', in the case of UI mods while alien crosshair is a joke, one has to admit the human persistent radar HUD is an extreme advantage BUT using the whole 'Q3 set it up so personal UI huds could be used so it's not a cheat' opens the door for the use of ANY hud including the vastly unfair radar UI for humans.

Not taking sides on this issue just pointing out a tidbit of information that seems to have been over looked in the shit flinging.
it's impossible to add a permanent radar to the human hud without circumventing the game's cheat protections system, the HUD component for the radar is _always_ on the human hud, but it refuses to draw itself unless you are wearing a helmet. Simply adding crosshairs or rearranging the positions of your health/ammo/etc. doesn't require any cheating, and if the devs intended to make custom huds cheating, they could have marked cg_hudfiles CVAR_CHEAT.

While that is all true the typical company run server will not make this distinction nor care to. It will blanket rule the entire situation as it has every right to.

ie. I recall back on onecall in quake 2 gloom days, there were features that were completely safe that the servers operators company simply flatly denied putting on their hardware as it would break their ToS. Regardless of how 'safe' or 'secure' the addon was proved to be by the gaming community the company could not and would not even step close to the potential breaking of their ToS it may or may not cause, it was just safer from the company stand point to say 'no this is not allowed'. Hence my point with GameArena, they may share a similar mindset.

Regardless of how harmless the UI might be it dangerously edges one of their ToS rules so rather than get in a whole potential issue they made it a non issue by blanket banning modifications. Sucks, but from a company point of view they have every right to do so and expect their admins to follow those instructions.

Least this is what I've seen of seraphs and FisherPs posts. They're basic employees. They can attempt to get the higher ups to see the communitys point of view BUT there is no guarnatee they will. 99% of the time with a company run server the head administrators don't even play the game much less monitor these forums or investigate any of the addons. But they still have a greater level of influence on the rules than your game level admins do.

*Shrugs* I don't play or admin on GA so is none of my business to be honest but there seems to be alot of shit flinging over an explained issue, was just hoping to clarify it a bit from the peanut gallery

seraph · « **Reply #62 on:** January 29, 2007, 09:35:44 pm »

Darkrogue is correct. Nobody higher than us GameOps plays Tremulous, or if they do they haven't told me. OTOH, they're not going to change a Code of Conduct just for one game. If the dretch crosshair is going to become standard, you could always live without it in the mean time.

I never told you that you could use what you like. I told you that we would accept, but not believe, your statement about not using cheats. Our inability to detect it should not be confused with acceptance of it.

Quote

You actually tried to tell him what he could host on his own server? Seriously, are you that stupid?

I really really hope that you are aware of the irony in this. You're all telling GameArena what we can host on our server, or trying to. It is this simple: Things which we will not host on our server include cheaters.
The Code of Conduct (written for games in general, not free-source easily editable games like Tremulous in particular) considers use of any custom UI to be cheating.
It doesn't matter whether the GameOps agree.

That's all I have to say on this topic. I don't really care whether Chompers ragequits over being asked to admit that he doesn't own our servers.

tuple · « **Reply #63 on:** January 29, 2007, 10:06:26 pm »

Once again you are wrong. I will tell you that your rules are stupid, I will not tell you that you cannot have stupid rules. This was in reference to you attempting to dictate whether or not someone can play on your server based on a file that is NOT HOSTED ON YOUR SERVER. Chompers could quite easily ask someone else to host his HUD and take it off of his server and he would be following the letter of your request. See how idiotic the request is? Incidentally, the chompers HUD is already available elsewhere, and has been for a VERY LONG TIME, since soon after he released it. Trying out different HUDs is just something that many of us playing tremulous do, and so the files end up spread far and wide. I guess we're all a bunch of cheaters to you /sarcasm
<sarcasm>
Since you are apparently unaware of this fact, files stored on servers not in your country are available to anyone with an Internet connection IN your country and vice versa. </sarcasm> Ok, NOW do you see how idiotic the request is? It is a simple strong arm tactic that has no affect except to allow some meaningless requirement supplied by some faceless (to us) bureaucrat to feel as if something is being accomplished.

If you want to discuss your dumb ass rules on a public forum that is well aware of the pointlessness of your argument then you can expect us to call you out on it.

You are absolutely within your right to do whatever the hell you want on your own server. We are absolutely within out right to respond in THIS forum in any way that the "owners" of this forum allows.

I have worked for corporations for decades now, they get idiotic rules when noone has the guts to call them out on it or to stand up to them.

My prediction, more australian servers are about to come into existence and become popular. I host a 12 slot server on my home connection. It's not hard and can make for some great matches. 1.5 down 768 up, you really don't need much.

Telling ME what I can do on your server? Ok, I can live with that. I may not like it, I'll probably bitch too. Telling me what I can do on MY server as a requirement of using your server? Piss Off.

One last thing, chompers didn't ragequit, you banned him.

Stof · « **Reply #64 on:** January 29, 2007, 10:07:29 pm »

Quote from: "DarkRogue"

ie. I recall back on onecall in quake 2 gloom days, there were features that were completely safe that the servers operators company simply flatly denied putting on their hardware as it would break their ToS. Regardless of how 'safe' or 'secure' the addon was proved to be by the gaming community the company could not and would not even step close to the potential breaking of their ToS it may or may not cause, it was just safer from the company stand point to say 'no this is not allowed'. Hence my point with GameArena, they may share a similar mindset.

While your story is probably true, there is a big difference between a paranoid server administrator who doesn't want to run untrusted code on his server and multiplayer game rules that forbid a client side modification. In the first case, the worse that can happen is an owned box turning into a bot for a DDOS, an ftp server for warez or a point of entry to hack the remaining computers of the network. In the second case at best you have people cheating. Now considering that the client side HUD modification has been carefully crafted by ID software engineers to be safe and secure, there is no reason to be paranoid on that point. This is just one of those WTF you often find when uninformed people make ( stupid ) decisions.

This is how it should have been handled :

Admin: According to the GA rules, using custom HUDs is considered cheating
HUDUser: Ok, does anybody care about that?
Admin: No, nobody will bother with that
HUDUser: Ok then, thanks for the info

And that's how I'll handle that for now I guess: not bothering.

Foobicam · « **Reply #65 on:** February 03, 2007, 04:55:10 pm »

Quote from: "seraph"

I really really hope that you are aware of the irony in this. You're all telling GameArena what we can host on our server, or trying to. It is this simple: Things which we will not host on our server include cheaters.
The Code of Conduct (written for games in general, not free-source easily editable games like Tremulous in particular) considers use of any custom UI to be cheating.

That doesn't change the fact that a rule saying any non-default UI is cheating and bannable is just silly. Configuring things that weren't intended by the game designers to be configured is exploiting. Configuring things that were designed to be configured is not. You are saying that anyone who admits to turning off the clock (which is on by default) or turning on the lagometer (which is off by default) is a cheater who will be banned from GA. You are saying that admins there are not expected to judge the difference between an exploit and an explicitly designed feature. That is your right. It is my right to laugh at you and ignore your server, since I always run with lagometer on.

Foobicam · « **Reply #66 on:** February 03, 2007, 05:20:35 pm »

I downloaded chompers ui and used it for the first time last night (on BeerGarden, not GA). I thought adv goon barbs in the center would be a gimmick, but I like them. The clock is better in its default location than at the bottom. And the crosshair, as everyone else has said, makes no difference in gameplay whatsoever. When aiming a barb it's useful, but when in constant motion it disappears -- the only thing my wetware can process is a general impression of the whole screen; details become imperceptible at wallwalking pitching dretch speed.

What a ridiculous thing to ban someone over.

n00b pl0x · « **Reply #67 on:** February 03, 2007, 07:31:41 pm »

Has anyone seen this set of rules yet? Seraph and those other moronic admins have talked about it 10x but havent given a link yet.

treminator · « **Reply #68 on:** February 05, 2007, 08:58:10 pm »

Quote from: "n00b pl0x"

Has anyone seen this set of rules yet? Seraph and those other moronic admins have talked about it 10x but havent given a link yet.

Even if they did, I think most here would agree that this is only an issue because the admins there wish it to be. With the exception of changing the trem server/client source, there is no possible way for them to tell if he's using it anyways. Like flying accusations of aimbots, et cetera, alas, it always boils down into a witch hunt instead. They really could just drop the issue entirely and be 100% within the ToS (no matter what it states, barring a "witch hunt" clause), but I reckon it has more to do with something else...

Like self delusional ethos in lieu of playing abilities? Happens all the time with kick votes by admins on other servers not accustomed to "UnnamedPlayers" with highest kill counts.

Caveman · « **Reply #69 on:** February 05, 2007, 10:27:22 pm »

Kill GA already... No, this is not a call to players to DoS them, nor to actually Kill the owners / admin. Rather a call to the hoster to put an end to this charade.

Look at GA and see what admin-abuse is really about. There you have some low lives that were granted admin-privs and try now to hide behind ToS, but all we see is some BSer that try to declare something a cheat that will be in the next release / has been taken out of cheat-protection, on purpose.

Please Lord, let them be blessed with at least Brain v.02 so they don't shit in the kitchen!

p0m · « **Reply #70 on:** February 05, 2007, 11:39:03 pm »

Pike down guys, the admins are reasonable (Well, perhaps rebound at times).

Here's the code, btw. http://www.gamearena.com.au/help/code.php

Their server, their rules. GTFO.

kevlarman · « **Reply #71 on:** February 06, 2007, 12:14:45 am »

Quote from: "p0m"

Pike down guys, the admins are reasonable (Well, perhaps rebound at times).

Here's the code, btw. http://www.gamearena.com.au/help/code.php

Their server, their rules. GTFO.

their rules say nothing about custom huds being illegal.

eviljimmy · « **Reply #72 on:** February 06, 2007, 12:40:17 am »

Thanks Kevlarman, I just got home from work, noticed this was still going, and was logging in to say that.

It's sad that they have now managed to turn some of the community into their own mindless drones, who turn up to present some old information as if it was newly discovered gospel handed down by the GA Admins. The very first email from Chompers said "Where is this rule" and they have never been able to show that it existed before they invented it - indeed, they still cannot point to it anywhere in their published TOS.

The best they can say is "We say it's a cheat, even though the community says it isn't, so there."

Anyway, more content to show how leet the Gamearena admins are.:

Chompers and I, for people who lack good memories, were part of the of group of people who pushed to get trembot loaded onto Game Arena servers in the first place. (Thread is still at http://www.gamearena.com.au/messageboards/feedback/thread.php/3580053 on the Gamearena board) . A major component of Trembot is, of course the GUID.

Indeed, the third sticky post on the Gamearena board is "Getting a GUID". - http://www.gamearena.com.au/messageboards/tremulous/index.php

So when Gamearena banned him, they of course banned by IP. Knowing full well that Chompers plays from my house, and in doing so they manage to ban me as a bonus, without having to go through all that troublesome thinking up of excuses.

I pointed out that I had been banned from their game and their response was "

Quote

My regret is that you EvilJimmy are also banned because of this issue, but this is regretably the case when two people who share the same internet connection and one of them is banned. It also goes as a warning to others groups that I know share the internet connection with others. If one of you gets banned it affects the others so behave.

In other words they magically forgot about the same functionality that they are pushing all their players to get, just to make sure they got rid of me also. I guess when power goes to your head it has to throw out all the Class in order to make room. And to top it off they throw that nice little "Behave or we ban you and your friends" comment.

In any case, I've gone back to playing Savage and Steam games due to the lack of any other suitable (Ping less then 150, Population greater then 8 game Version newer then 1.1) Tremulous servers in the continent of Australia. Good luck with your game, guys.

Just remember that in a few weeks they'll be looking for the next sacrificial person to keep the community in line, and they'll turn on you next.

eaglestrike7339 · « **Reply #73 on:** February 06, 2007, 12:44:23 am »

from what i see here, there is single, possibly heavy handed admin, who's superiors decided that (what the owners thought as) cheating was illegal.

Lets remember that private companies such as GA are not democracies, and if they were, they would likely not survive long.

All summed up, I would do the same thing in thier situation, if a bit less suddenly and heavily. Personally, i have never used a custom HUD, though the minute advantage they give you is negligible, and truly a matter of personal feel and preference. The bit of extra vision provided by minimalist HUDs really doesnt matter that much to me, as it will still take the same amount of time to put the either swing the crosshairs on the target (human) or run up and bite the opponent. As a dretch, what would crosshairs do anyway? you are still at foot level, and when jumping you have no horizontal movement capacity.

And if this is so important to you (GA), put it as part of the message in the loading screen, not in page 12 on the forums, or not at all.

Lastly, couldnt the player just go to one of the other 157 servers? True, i have my favorites also, but there are always more.

(no one really supported)

Caveman · « **Reply #74 on:** February 06, 2007, 05:05:01 am »

Quote from: "eaglestrike7339"

Lets remember that private companies such as GA are not democracies, and if they were, they would likely not survive long.

Let's not forget that the GA-Admin-Abuser in question are not affiliated with the company, nor GA. They were simply players until they've been made admins.

Face it... The company does not care what it's beeing done, they just want the revenue...

eviljimmy · « **Reply #75 on:** February 06, 2007, 07:54:31 am »

Quote from: "eaglestrike7339"

Lastly, couldnt the player just go to one of the other 157 servers? True, i have my favorites also, but there are always more.

(no one really supported)

OK, I'll repeat myself and clarify.

I did a list, got 127 servers. Here are a list of ping times under 150 ms (with 30k upload in background)

GA Trem 1 : 55 ( 16 player Server)
GA Trem 2 : 56 ( 16 player Server)
GA Trem 3 : 58 ( 16 player Server)
iinet Tremulous 1.1 : 58 (24 player server, old version)
Octothorn by Ouranga : 53 (4 player server)
TK Clan Server V1.1 : 53 (16 player server)

Every Other Server has a ping of 200 or more. We have this thing called the Speed of Light, it sort of stops us playing on servers in the US and Europe without getting yelled at for lagging.

And this is with one of the best consumer internet service available in Australia. My home line is a ADSL2 service that syncs at 23.200 / 948 due to my proximity to the exchange.

I know we won't be allowed to play on the GA servers again, which means playing Tremulous online is limited to Lan parties. All because of a few people who won't admit they are completely, totally, provably and categorically wrong.

Oh well, just woke up, off to play some Sourcefort

p0m · « **Reply #76 on:** February 06, 2007, 09:04:26 am »

Quote from: "eviljimmy"

It's sad that they have now managed to turn some of the community into their own mindless drones, who turn up to present some old information as if it was newly discovered gospel handed down by the GA Admins. The very first email from Chompers said "Where is this rule" and they have never been able to show that it existed before they invented it - indeed, they still cannot point to it anywhere in their published TOS.

I != mindless drone. I think what they did was unfair, and I'm actually running my own modification of Chompers, which doesn't have a cursor.

Yes, rebound can be very impulsive and judgemental. Some people are, Gamearena(Bigpond Corp) hired him to be such on their servers. As I said, if he's interpreting the rules that way, it's up to him to enforce them that way.

I seriously don't think generalizing and badmouthing all of the GameArena admins helps at all; as cpseraph and FisherP have consistantly proven to be friendly, approachable and non-judgemental.

Whilst I think this is unfair, I will however prefer to play on GameArena as it's the lowest ping server I have access to.

Caveman · « **Reply #77 on:** February 06, 2007, 10:03:04 am »

Quote from: "p0m"

As I said, if he's interpreting the rules that way, it's up to him to enforce them that way.

He _IS_ interpreting the rules in that way, with out having the slightest clue that exactly _this_ modification was taken out of cheat-protection.
And HE declares it to be a cheat. If he were the server owner, I'd stand by his side, but as he is only the executive-branch of the server he is out of line to take the interpretation in his own hands.

tuple · « **Reply #78 on:** February 06, 2007, 12:47:30 pm »

And to ban people who are the main reason you are running a tremulous server for something like this is just poor taste, if not a downright smack in the face to their own tremulous players.

GA will continue to be the place to go as long as people keep going there. Only the Australian Trem community can change that.

Seffylight · « **Reply #79 on:** February 07, 2007, 08:16:11 pm »

Quote from: "GameArena's Code of Conduct"

8. Falsely accuse other players of cheating for the purpose of discrediting an innocent player.
Action we may take:
First two times: warnings to immediately cease the prohibited behaviour.

Third time: 2 week ban from GameArena.

Any further breaches may result in a permanent ban from GameArena.

Whoops. Better go ban yourselves.

Lava Croft · « **Reply #80 on:** February 07, 2007, 10:53:37 pm »

I think this is a sad, sad situation. :cry:

::ThePredator · « **Reply #81 on:** February 08, 2007, 12:27:18 am »

So if I take a felt tipped marker and make a black dot in the middle of my screen, am I cheating? Because in circumspect that is modifying the HUD and since your rules have no concept of 'nescessary and proper' they must be followed to the word (even if you, apparently, have to add them).

Then again you could just learn the concept of 'looking the other way', it's quite simple really; when you are supposed to enforce a rule you don't like just look 90 degrees to your left (or right if you want to), you can practice ifyou need to. What are your bosses going to do? Keep chat logs for a game they don't even play? And if they do give a flying fuck about an issue like this then they have way too much time.

p0m · « **Reply #82 on:** February 08, 2007, 04:46:24 am »

Quote from: "::ThePredator"

So if I take a felt tipped marker and make a black dot in the middle of my screen, am I cheating? Because in circumspect that is modifying the HUD and since your rules have no concept of 'nescessary and proper' they must be followed to the word (even if you, apparently, have to add them).

Then again you could just learn the concept of 'looking the other way', it's quite simple really; when you are supposed to enforce a rule you don't like just look 90 degrees to your left (or right if you want to), you can practice ifyou need to. What are your bosses going to do? Keep chat logs for a game they don't even play? And if they do give a flying fuck about an issue like this then they have way too much time.

If I flame in completely the wrong forum, on the wrong website, and then cut down a tree in a forest, does anyone hear me?

vcxzet · « **Reply #83 on:** February 08, 2007, 04:52:19 am »

lock!

Arch_Enemy · « **Reply #84 on:** February 08, 2007, 06:19:59 am »

if rebounds gonna ban chompers for using the ui mod in ga he might aswell find out who those 12 ppl are that are using it and ban them aswell :-?

chompers · « **Reply #85 on:** February 08, 2007, 07:23:33 am »

Arch, was it you who mentioned the little anomaly that allows anyone running a custom HUD to get a pretty clear indication when someone else connects with a custom HUD? (I know it was one of you TK guys) Has anyone mentioned it to the GA GameOps yet?

I've pretty much kept it to myself, because obviously I don't trust the GA GameOps to do the right thing with that info. But Arch, as someone who still plays on GA, based on what you've seen of rebound since our chat on the TK server, do you think he is still using a custom HUD himself?

If he is, it would be worth it to me to post here in public how to detect it. Of course, if he stopped using one, then there is no reason for me to say anything.

News:

Poll

Do You Use Chompers UI mod on gamearena?

Author Topic: Chompers UI mod on gamearena (Read 35188 times)

Caveman

Caveman

Caveman

Lava Croft

vcxzet