Poll

Is good Tremulous AI possible?

Yes
73 (67%)
No
36 (33%)

Total Members Voted: 99

Voting closed: January 24, 2007, 06:41:26 pm

Author Topic: A.I., anybody?  (Read 107036 times)

Nagato

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A.I., anybody?
« Reply #60 on: March 19, 2007, 09:58:11 pm »
If we were to have AI, they better not count towards the kill count.  Their ignorance can not be forgiven.  :evil:   LOL
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sleekslacker

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Re: Yeah, yeah
« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2007, 10:28:12 pm »
Quote from: "floodbud"
Apology accepted 8) .
Like I said, I'm just going to focus on general AI, and strictly that, without going deeper into Trem code.


If you wont go deeper into Trem code, don't dream of coding an AI for it. If you don't understand at least 50% (estimate) of Trem code, the probabilty of you succeeding is ~0.  I do support the notion of creating a dumb bot feature though (running in perfect circles and eights).
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floodbud

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Exactly
« Reply #62 on: March 21, 2007, 06:43:33 pm »
Exactly.  Just what I want.  If you can do more than talk about supporting it, let me know...it could be as much as six months before I am able to work on implementing that.
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doomagent13

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« Reply #63 on: March 23, 2007, 02:59:56 am »
Could the q3 bot code simply be copied and pasted in with minor "dont shoot teammates/things" additions, at least at first?  A rifle with no armor, but being able to know where everything is with more accuracy than a helmet and being able to shoot more accurately than your average md, would be a difficult target.

EDIT:  Another use for bots would be to give SOME competition on an otherwise empty server.

sleekslacker

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« Reply #64 on: March 24, 2007, 09:06:18 am »
I have managed to put back in the botlib from SVN 777 against my copy of SVN 901. It compiled and ran fine. But there are no syscall traps hooking into the botlib at all as of now. That will be in my next plan. Don't expect too much :)
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TriedtoDestroyMetal

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« Reply #65 on: March 25, 2007, 02:30:56 pm »
I skipped most of the thread so sorry if this has already been mentioned (might also have come up in the tutorial mod thread)

But what about simplified bots, that say only do one class, and could be played on simplified maps? The point of this would be to train the player. For example one 'level' could be the player shooting a dretch as a naked human. Another level could have say 2 dretches and a goon, with a squad of humans backing him up, etc.
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sleekslacker

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« Reply #66 on: March 25, 2007, 08:08:36 pm »
All botlib syscalls are back in and working fine. Bots can be added and join alien/human team. The behavior isn't implemented yet, so they don't spawn just yet. I'll report here when I have the first bot to spawn.
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Risujin

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« Reply #67 on: March 26, 2007, 12:34:55 am »
Quote from: "sleekslacker"
All botlib syscalls are back in and working fine. Bots can be added and join alien/human team. The behavior isn't implemented yet, so they don't spawn just yet. I'll report here when I have the first bot to spawn.

Post a patch when you've got something.

I think, actually, a different approach might be easiest. Here is my idea: Create a new class for the AI (yes, give it its own model too!) on humans and aliens. Because the AI is very likely to be retarded, give this new class advantages to balance out the deficencies. If all AIs have the same size, you only need to run a pathfinding algorithm on each map once (though botlib does this, no?).

For the human team you could probably create, without too much hassle, a kind of walking turret. It'd be capable of using a few weapons (hitscans probably), and would run some kind of simple strategy. Give it lots of HP and make it fast and it might even be useful. ;)

TriedtoDestroyMetal

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« Reply #68 on: March 26, 2007, 01:44:49 am »
Give hummies drones (See David Lynch's Dune)
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holyknight

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« Reply #69 on: March 26, 2007, 06:50:12 am »
Quote from: "TriedtoDestroyMetal"
Give hummies drones (See David Lynch's Dune)

doesn't really have to do with Human AI now do we?
But yea, that'd be cool.
But didn't people already talked about that in mod?

floodbud

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Yeahyeah
« Reply #70 on: March 26, 2007, 06:34:14 pm »
Sounds good everyone.  Sleekslacker, let us know when you have something.  Fourth quarter in school will end in about 8 weeks, so I could do a little work then if necessary.

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Plague Bringer

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« Reply #71 on: March 26, 2007, 08:09:47 pm »
Quote from: "holyknight"
Quote from: "TriedtoDestroyMetal"
Give hummies drones (See David Lynch's Dune)

doesn't really have to do with Human AI now do we?
But yea, that'd be cool.
But didn't people already talked about that in mod?


he meant AS the human AI...someone suggested giving the ai different models, the human's AI could take the form of a defence/offence/medical drone.
U R A Q T

optear

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« Reply #72 on: March 26, 2007, 08:49:33 pm »
if you wont do anything, please stfu
quote]if timbo is the father of tremulous, norfenstein - mother, and overflow, jex, stannum, tjw, ... children. I am the grandfather. Because I created NS. [/quote]

holyknight

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« Reply #73 on: March 26, 2007, 11:29:28 pm »
we are just discussing. and the OP doesn't make mods too. He was just asking why.

floodbud

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« Reply #74 on: March 27, 2007, 06:34:09 pm »
Quote from: "optear the pessimist"
if you wont do anything, please stfu


Though I kind of like this attitude, I think it is important to suggest and discuss things before undertaking them...that's what separates man from the apes.  Don't be an ape please; if you have a constructive comment, post it.

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optear

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« Reply #75 on: March 27, 2007, 07:52:32 pm »
Quote from: "floodbud"
Quote from: "optear the pessimist"
if you wont do anything, please stfu


Though I kind of like this attitude, I think it is important to suggest and discuss things before undertaking them...that's what separates man from the apes.  Don't be an ape please; if you have a constructive comment, post it.

___________
Floodbud

well discuss ... but you wont get anything by discussing. try and see.
moreover if someone was about to program ai. he wont even look at the this thread. because this thread does not help programming ai. But hey just entertain yourselves with lies
quote]if timbo is the father of tremulous, norfenstein - mother, and overflow, jex, stannum, tjw, ... children. I am the grandfather. Because I created NS. [/quote]

floodbud

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« Reply #76 on: March 28, 2007, 06:29:39 pm »
Quote from: "optear"
well discuss ... but you wont get anything by discussing. try and see. this thread does not help programming ai. But hey just entertain yourselves with lies


Party pooper.

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techhead

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« Reply #77 on: March 29, 2007, 09:27:13 pm »
Target practice!!!
And AI will probably end up with smarter team-play once they implement vchat.
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sleekslacker

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« Reply #78 on: March 30, 2007, 08:26:03 pm »
Quote from: "optear"
Quote from: "floodbud"
Quote from: "optear the pessimist"
if you wont do anything, please stfu


Though I kind of like this attitude, I think it is important to suggest and discuss things before undertaking them...that's what separates man from the apes.  Don't be an ape please; if you have a constructive comment, post it.

___________
Floodbud

well discuss ... but you wont get anything by discussing. try and see.
moreover if someone was about to program ai. he wont even look at the this thread. because this thread does not help programming ai. But hey just entertain yourselves with lies



Actually, i agree with the troll. I'm posting here since you guys started talking about AI and stuffs. So be informed that I'm working on one but I can't guarantee anything useful will be produced out of it. This kind of discussion is pretty much useless unless you can tell me where in the old quake3 code the spawning commence and stuffs. In other words, look into the code and maybe start by documenting stuffs if you want people to join you as a group.
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The Neutral

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Fools
« Reply #79 on: April 02, 2007, 07:16:43 pm »
Despite all of Floodbuds and powerover's bickering, lets get back to the topic, I think that could be quite simple.  Human, sit in corner, aim shoot.  Alien, look at head run aimlessly.
n our world, neutral is non-exsistant.

powerover

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Re: You don't quite get the point...nothing personal...
« Reply #80 on: April 03, 2007, 04:49:13 pm »
Quote from: "floodbud"
Maybe we aren't understanding this.  Any Tremulous AI would be largely ignored, because Tremulous plays best as a multi-player game.  The point would be to create some bots and customizable scenarios so that the noobs could work themselves up to pro without being kicked from 83 servers first.  I remember how difficult it was to get to pro when I started.
 But if anyone is a super-genius and wants to take it up to the level of campaign-style bots that act like real players, go ahead.
 For now, the best way to do it is to split the labor.  Since no one has any better suggestions, here is how we will split the AI programming, for all those interested.  By the way, alien AI will be much harder, which is why it takes up the bulk of the programming.

(Divided by month of birth):
 January: Dretch AI
 February: Human Lucifer Cannon AI
 March-April: Basilisk AI; great programmers, add Adv. Bassy AI
 May-June: Goon AI and Human close-range weapon AI
 July-August: Adv. Goon AI
 September-October: Maurauder AI; just add a little lightning for Adv.
 November: Tyrant
 December: Human long-range AI
 :roll:
Good luck, everyone!
____________
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You are a complete idiot.  You are nowhere near a pro tremulous player.  And what makes you think because you post you want an AI and you give the schedule to work on it that everyone will just be like ok and get started.  You ignorance is beyond that of which I have ever seen.  Go get a life.

player1

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Me, too!
« Reply #81 on: April 03, 2007, 06:22:43 pm »
Quote from: "Risujin"
Quote from: "sleekslacker"
All botlib syscalls are back in and working fine. Bots can be added and join alien/human team. The behavior isn't implemented yet, so they don't spawn just yet. I'll report here when I have the first bot to spawn.

Post a patch when you've got something.

I think, actually, a different approach might be easiest. Here is my idea: Create a new class for the AI (yes, give it its own model too!) on humans and aliens. Because the AI is very likely to be retarded, give this new class advantages to balance out the deficencies. If all AIs have the same size, you only need to run a pathfinding algorithm on each map once (though botlib does this, no?).

For the human team you could probably create, without too much hassle, a kind of walking turret. It'd be capable of using a few weapons (hitscans probably), and would run some kind of simple strategy. Give it lots of HP and make it fast and it might even be useful. ;)


Say, Ris, sorry to butt in since I'm not going to actually code anything, but:

This is a really hip idea for a n00b botmatch thing. Somebody else mentioned medical drones. So, thinking along the lines of the Deus Ex drones, you could have various classes. And, Quake3arena already has the proper bot behavoir (Giant Eyeball, except it would be looking for the rocket launcher and the flag). :P

Thematically, you could play as either Human or Alien against it, because Humans would use them to train, and Aliens would use captured ones to train also, or just meet bots in forward areas where people haven't been sent yet, or in areas that have already been "secured", so the Humans left the bots in charge again. It's a trainer: Humans v. Aliens would only be happening at "The Front"; that is, in contested areas where active Alien presence requires direct Human intervention.

Since it's mostly about attacking and using weapons against a fairly dumb bot, you could have various classes, no buildings except spawn points (Nodes or Eggs) and Armouries (Aliens would just evo up), and medbots instead of Medistations. You would only be able to join one contingent in any particular match (Humans vs. Bots or Aliens vs. Bots). Bots could be about as smart as they were in Deus Ex (two kinds: lumbering but strong; quick and deadly). Medbots as usual would be like a dog that won't heel. I know this doesn't help much, because the other places to get Open Source models are the wrong engines (Deus Ex is Unreal and it's not open source, afaik; Stargiege is open source, but different engine). Perhaps some Quake mod somewhere has an appropriate open-source model? Didn't vcxzet/optear already import the Giant Eyeball and Lara Croft model into Trem maps? Giant Eyeball would be the Attacker and Lucy/Lara would be the Defender.

I know. It ain't Alien v. Human. And I can't really help much.

Bot classes:
Medbot - roving medistation
practically same as Deus Ex, you gotta find the health
Defender - slower, powerful (defends "enemy" OM/reactor)
in DX: the big drones; in Q3a: Lucy
Attacker - quicker, deadlier (attacks players, deathmatch-style)
in DX: those little mean buggers; in Q3a: the giant eyeball

Medbot wanders aimlessly heals only Humans (Aliens regenerate)
[Possibly damages Aliens with tesla/reactor attack]
{Yes, much like an Adv Mara, a teammate, I know}
Defender uses more Stage 3 Human weapons (chainguns or lucis)
[Yes I know chaingun is S1, but few can afford to die with one until S3]
{What I mean is slow weapons you move lumberingly in a battlesuit with}
 Attacker uses what Ris said, the hitscan stuff (iirc lasgun, rifle, etc.)
[Generally, all of the Light Weapons or Fast Weapons]
{What I mean are all the other stuff except what the Heavies use}
Paint 'em all Human Blue (or make 'em Alien Red in Human v. Bot)
Call 'em Spot (Medi), Heavy (Defbot), Meanie (Perpetrator)

OK, since I can't do any of it, I'll stfu & gtfo. :P

Thanks. And have a lovely Trem day. :D

Oops, sorry, edit: Make them all them same size, just like Ris says (yes, I missed it, and I'm too lazy to edit the entire thing). Just armored and powerful for defenders and quick and dangerous for attackers. And hard to find for Medibots.  :roll:

Player vs. Bots
not Human vs. Alien
but as Alien you have to destroy a Reactor
and as Human you have to destroy an Overmind
which some bots defend
while others attack you (but maybe your structures, too?)
no builder classes?
teambotmatch/assault/mission/coop-style play only
like a coop SP level
or assault MP map
evade attackers
destroy defenders
accomplish SP/coop mission
default maps & Aegis & the ATCS & UTCS variations (the training maps)
so sorry if that's not what you meant/want/thought/were trying to say
thx agn
k c-ya
edited for clarity
yes, i've got nothing better to do right now

floodbud

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retort
« Reply #82 on: April 03, 2007, 06:42:23 pm »
Quote from: "powerover"
You are a complete idiot.


Listen powerover, stop flaming me and only me.

Has everyone noticed how every single thing I've posted, powerover has attacked me on it?

Obviously it's something personal, so I suggest you either laugh at his n00bish nature or ignore him.

He actually isn't that bad once you get to know him...he's worse.

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The Neutral

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ARGHH!
« Reply #83 on: April 04, 2007, 12:28:23 am »
Okay, powerover and floodbud should be ban, I know I am being a little hypocritical when I am saying this.  Tremulous is a game, games are made to have fun in.  We are on a forum for a game, forums are to learn new ways to have fun playing a game.  Simple, so both of you since all you do is spend your time insulting each other, just leave and go sit in your self pitty.

Back to the original AI, I am not total genius in any language, but instead no some of most.  Trem is based off of Q3, Q3 has bots, this has been mentioned before, and I agree is a good idea to use that code with some minor updates.  Risijun had a good idea, and could be implemented since Trem 1.2 could be out soon.  

Despite what everyone is saying, I think that AI is posible, infact even plauseible and has enough support and knowledge if we all to give alittle bit of effort.
n our world, neutral is non-exsistant.

doomagent13

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A.I., anybody?
« Reply #84 on: April 04, 2007, 12:13:51 pm »
Quote from: "Risujin"
Quote from: "sleekslacker"
All botlib syscalls are back in and working fine. Bots can be added and join alien/human team. The behavior isn't implemented yet, so they don't spawn just yet. I'll report here when I have the first bot to spawn.

Post a patch when you've got something.

I think, actually, a different approach might be easiest. Here is my idea: Create a new class for the AI (yes, give it its own model too!) on humans and aliens. Because the AI is very likely to be retarded, give this new class advantages to balance out the deficencies. If all AIs have the same size, you only need to run a pathfinding algorithm on each map once (though botlib does this, no?).

For the human team you could probably create, without too much hassle, a kind of walking turret. It'd be capable of using a few weapons (hitscans probably), and would run some kind of simple strategy. Give it lots of HP and make it fast and it might even be useful. ;)

You wouldnt even need to give it lots of health--presumably it would effectively have radar.

floodbud

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Re: ARGHH!
« Reply #85 on: April 04, 2007, 06:31:25 pm »
Quote from: "The Neutral"
Okay, powerover and floodbud should be ban, I know I am being a little hypocritical when I am saying this.  Tremulous is a game, games are made to have fun in.  We are on a forum for a game, forums are to learn new ways to have fun playing a game.  Simple, so both of you since all you do is spend your time insulting each other, just leave and go sit in your self pitty.


Well, he started it!

No more, I promise.  Except in self-defense...I'm not going to sit, wounded, on the ground with a fully charged rifle and not counterattack.

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The Neutral

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Okay
« Reply #86 on: April 05, 2007, 01:19:44 am »
Okay.  If you two do know each other than fight it out off the forums.

As for the real code, each and every one of us knows that AI itself is possible, well atleast for games.  We all know that other games have AI, from simple games like a scrolling shooter, or to something very complex like Splinter Cell or FEAR.  The more complex one is written my an educated proffesional, the scroller, any one who takes the effort and knows something about computers.

Now, Trem is an open source game, probably the best, but that means that there are people who understand this code very well, and not just the makers of Trem.  What we need are more people like that, and more people who would be willing to make the effort.  But I really am a huge fan of Ris's idea, add a new class, now what would be nice to do is make it so that tey could side with one team, in example if you are playing agianst a newer team or clan, the host just puts them on that team, also they could have different difficulty settings example:
Easy - Low health, medium damage, medium accuracy.
Normal - Health is higher than a real players, damage is higher, Accuracy is the same.
Hard - Health is even higher than medium, Damage is even higher accuracy is about 95%.

Maybe its alittle overpowered, but tweaking could be done, that way AI script would be less elaborate, also something that would help would be for map editors to put in zones, like OPEN they would avoid, DEFENSE they would play defensive there, and ATTACK these would be like high spots and places they would like to attack from.
n our world, neutral is non-exsistant.

sleekslacker

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« Reply #87 on: April 09, 2007, 05:08:40 pm »
Demo
http://mercenariesguild.net/files/233755

Flash Video
http://Mercenariesguild.net/files/234436

He doesn't respawn after dying yet though.
y last name is Jones, the family motto is "Jones' never give up!"

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floodbud

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wow
« Reply #88 on: April 09, 2007, 06:29:34 pm »
I wasn't expecting anything to happen yet.  Not after everyone turning against me.  Thanks for not being a slacker.

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f0rqu3

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A.I., anybody?
« Reply #89 on: April 09, 2007, 08:12:01 pm »
haha aimbot!