a new tremulous map

[soubok]

BTW, do you know how to reduce the PVS ( Potentially Visible Set ).
The issue is:
The game seems to draw some parts of the map even if they are not visible, or not directly connected to a visible part.

Sometimes I can see the half of my map with /r_showtris 1

[DarkWolf]

I absolutley don't have any clue, but i've googled it, and found these document's, that you may find interesting   .

https://zerowing.idsoftware.com/svn/radiant.gamepacks/Q3Rad_Manual/trunk/ch12/pg12_1.htm
http://www.destroyermaps.ch/foren/viewtopic.php?t=992&sid=56

I'm sorry if this doesn't help   .

[Stof]

You need to optimise the brushes so that the game knows how to cut triangles. I'm just starting on Quake 3 map editing myself so I have little help to give you but here is what I know :
- Use portals which split the world in multiple zones. If the game decides it cannot see a portal, it won't display any polygon from the zone behind that portal. Most of the time, portals are best made very small themselves, like in a corridor. Warning, it seems Quake 3 is limited to 16 zones per map where Unreal 1 was limited to 64 itself
- Make sure you have perfectly solid brushes as walls. If you create a too complex brush as a wall, it can either have some leak or maybe the engine won't be able to detect that such brush blocks the view. Check you walls that should block the view for leaks in them.
- Use anti portals : they are invisible brushes that tell the engine they block the view. That's an UT2003 feature so I'm not sure they are available in Quake 3. They are best used when you place some very complex decoration which the mapper knows it blocks the view but the engine cannot find that on it's own. Bad antiportal usage can result in HoM effects easily.

[Outcast]

Very nice.... Cant wait till it comes out. I love the cant stay outside thing. It adds a certain... twist to it.

[[db@]Megabite]

Got three more points:

- Use hint-brushes at corners.
- Compile with fullvis, fastvis does not optimize much.
- Never use areaportals in tremulous maps.

Why not use areaportals? Because it blocks radar!
It seems that the radar-information in tremulous is gathered partly by the renderer. If the area behind a portal cannot be "seen", the radar is also blind.

Example: There is an area portal, humans have just built their defense behind that door/portal, 3 or 4 turrets.
Any alien standing before that door will see nothing(!) on the sentience radar. Opening the door will come with quite a surprise then...

Danny

[DarkRogue]

Actually using areaportals could be kinda fun for areas where radar is suppose to be jammed/disrupted....could make an interesting effect....

[soubok]

yes, it can be a good gameplay element !!

[Basilisco]

If there are jammed radar zones (i have no idea how the hell the alien radar works, but it shouldnt be jammed as a human one) you could put some signs (radiation signs or whatever). And maybe, just to stop humans  from building right behind the doors you could make that "jammed area" non-buildable.

The new watchtower looks nice, but i must say, i liked the old one better , and before that, i liked the first one better . Maybe i just like the rusty style   .

What changes have you made so far?
Did you consider making the ourside more playable?
Fixed the generator area?

[soubok]

if I will create a jammed radar zone, it will be a very small zone. a safe deposit for example ( any other idea is wellcome  )

since the BETA 2, I made a LOT of changes :
- VIS optimizations
- bugs fix
- corridors & under floor height
- better lighting
- more hidden places for aliens
- new way from between entrance vent and watch-tower
- new way from the broken generator to the outdoor
- better water exit
- more ambiant sounds
- colored signs
- ...

Now I will work on the outdoor area. I need some ideas to make this zone more playable.

[Stof]

Btw, there's a shader setting you can use to force the signpost textures always at max quality level. It'll solve the problem people have reading them at lower quality settings.

http://www.heppler.com/shader/shader/section3.htm#3.5

[[db@]Megabite]

The outdoor area really has to have another way to enter from the inside. Once human spawns are outside it is practically impossible for aliens to win. Last man standing could barricade himself outside and let aliens wait half an hour for a draw / timelimit.

Have had that situation in a game today. After some 5 minutes players from the alien team started leaving the server, lack of action.

Danny

[soubok]

The "nobuild" outside the base will be the best solution. ( of course, a prebuilt base will exist inside )

[Basilisco]

I've been thinking about how to improve the game outside a bit. One drastic change would be to lower the damage outside (for players not buildings), and make something interesting to reach there. I don't know, maybe you could make an extra control center outside (more like a bunker) with an entrance right outside(inside lock only), and a corridor coming from the main map.



This bunker/command center otuside needs another changed around the map. Like a change in the lock system of that big entrance door (maybe a timer after 5 mins or something). And who knows...

hhhm.. im now thinking that thind may not really work lol, but i already did the super-kewl-paint-drawing so.. hhhm.. you tell me what you think

[[db@]Megabite]

The "nobuild" outside the base will be the best solution.

If the complete area is non buildable, it is completely useless for gameplay and should be sealed off as an optical gimmick.
The only other funtion it has in its current state is providing a place to hide for a last man standing, possibly ruining the game.

Danny

[soubok]

At the begining, for me, the outdoor area was just for the trip to the base entrance.
The good news is that the next version will have a new target_hurt target ( more details ).
The current state of my map is pretty good, all bugs/suggestions has been included. The BETA 3 ( my last beta ) will be released in two steps: a private beta release ( 1 or 2 days before ), and then the public beta release.
therefore it is time for last comments before I release.
Thanks.

click here or here

[DarkWolf]

And for who is that private beta release?

Anyhow, i found another bug, if you go down a canyon with a jetpack, and build something there, you can build a base there, because it only damages the building(s), i hope this will be fixed with the new triggers  :wink:   .

[soubok]

And for who is that private beta release?

You and me, on my private server  

And yes, the the new trigger will (definitely) fix this issue ( already tested ).

[DarkWolf]

Cool   .
Also, a bug: If i open a door manually by the switch at the door itself, it doesn't update the lights in the control room.
Hope it will be fixed soon.

[gareth]

BTW, do you know how to reduce the PVS ( Potentially Visible Set ).
The issue is:
The game seems to draw some parts of the map even if they are not visible, or not directly connected to a visible part.

Sometimes I can see the half of my map with /r_showtris 1

I just tested this out, not just on your map but on many of the maps, it seems to be the case the pvs isnt very efficent, also I noticed that (solid) doors do not seem to affect the pvs in any way, when they could obvioulsty be used to cull out lots of geometry when they are closed.

Is this to do with the quake 3 engine in general, the map compiler, bsps in general, just be being a noob?

[Survivor]

Using that on doors would mean inducing some lag since the area behind it is loaded on opening, I don't know if you've ever noticed the human base in niveus on a laggy server but sometimes it takes time for the player entities and structures to load, could mean death for the aliens. It also affects alien sense, try it out with r_showtris on. I suggest niveus because the corner near the human base is such a clear example of it.

[gareth]

Using that on doors would mean inducing some lag since the area behind it is loaded on opening, I don't know if you've ever noticed the human base in niveus on a laggy server but sometimes it takes time for the player entities and structures to load, could mean death for the aliens. It also affects alien sense, try it out with r_showtris on. I suggest niveus because the corner near the human base is such a clear example of it.

Yes i have seen that effect, but dont know see it is relevant.

[[db@]Megabite]

I just tested this out, not just on your map but on many of the maps, it seems to be the case the pvs isnt very efficent, also I noticed that (solid) doors do not seem to affect the pvs in any way, when they could obvioulsty be used to cull out lots of geometry when they are closed.

That can be done using areaportals. Problem with areaportals in tremulous is that they do not only block pvs but also radar.
Only chance to reduce pvs without "jamming" the radar is using lots of well placed hint brushes. Jex has posted a tutorial about visibility in the mapping guide as far as I know.

Danny

[Survivor]

Using that on doors would mean inducing some lag since the area behind it is loaded on opening, I don't know if you've ever noticed the human base in niveus on a laggy server but sometimes it takes time for the player entities and structures to load, could mean death for the aliens. It also affects alien sense, try it out with r_showtris on. I suggest niveus because the corner near the human base is such a clear example of it.

Yes i have seen that effect, but dont know see it is relevant.

Not relevant? Aliens not seeing marines coming or turrets behind a door or around a corner not relevant?

[Stof]

What exactly is the problem with areaportals and the radar ? As far as I can see it, any effort mappers do so that the engine doesn't foolishly draw all of the level causes the radar to fail. This is a radar bug, not a map bug. The question is to know if we should work with the radar bugs or not

[soubok]

I agree with you, I think this is a radar "issue". The radar seems to strongly depend on the current PVS to display things. The issue should be the same in the whole map, but in the case of areaportal (when its related door is closing), the line of sight is broken instantly, consequently the points on the radar disappear instantly.

[[db@]Megabite]

What exactly is the problem with areaportals and the radar ?

The problem is, that an areaportal is blocking the radar for things behind a door you are standing in front of!
Hint portals prevent the engine from drawing things around the second corner from your point of view (given there are hint portals at those corners). This is usually sufficient to get decent r_speeds and does not block radar in any way.
It is not really a bug of the radar, it is how the thing works. It takes information from the renderer client-side to create radar information. To work around this "bug" the radar system would have to be completely rewritten and made a server-side thing... that would increase traffic, lag the information a bit, may even give radar information that is contradictory to what you see.
Simply put: Use hints, not areaportals...

Danny

[Stof]

Megabite"]

What exactly is the problem with areaportals and the radar ?

The problem is, that an areaportal is blocking the radar for things behind a door you are standing in front of!
Hint portals prevent the engine from drawing things around the second corner from your point of view (given there are hint portals at those corners). This is usually sufficient to get decent r_speeds and does not block radar in any way.
It is not really a bug of the radar, it is how the thing works. It takes information from the renderer client-side to create radar information. To work around this "bug" the radar system would have to be completely rewritten and made a server-side thing... that would increase traffic, lag the information a bit, may even give radar information that is contradictory to what you see.
Simply put: Use hints, not areaportals...

Danny

Areaportals aren't meant to be placed inside doors only For my time of Unreal mapping, I consider them a better tech ( easier to use ) than hint brushes to reduce the PVS. And placing them inside doors to reduce the PVS when closed is cute, but doesn't help at all when the door is open which might happen quite often. That last optimisation is a bad one in my opinion. Better to make the level fast with all doors open Also, since it reduces the problems of the radar near closed doors, that's another reason not to do that

But from what I understand, hints would cause radar bugs too. I have quite often the problem that radar doesn't work around corners. Should we stop using hint brushed because of that too ? The only correct solution is to fix the radar bug.

PS : human radar is already inacurate and lags a lot. It wouldn't matter at all if it was all server side
PPS : you say radar is a client side thing ? Wrong : it is both. Radar is linked to what the server considers relevant information. If the server considers that player A cannot see player B because B isn't in the PVS of player A, then A doesn't even know B is here and so, A cannot draw B in its radar. That's the exact cause of the radar bug.

[[db@]Megabite]

Areaportals aren't meant to be placed inside doors only For my time of Unreal mapping...

According to all my sources Quake engine games can place areaportals only inside door brushes. I have tried to place them in a corridor but the best effect you get is simply nothing or a nice HOM.
As Unreal is a completely different engine you really cannot compare mapping features, even if they are called the same.

But from what I understand, hints would cause radar bugs too. I have quite often the problem that radar doesn't work around corners. Should we stop using hint brushed because of that too ? The only correct solution is to fix the radar bug.

Usually the next corner or two are calculated, even when there is a hint brush. The engine knows you may go around that corner in a few frames and precalculates enough to have a nice buffer. Of course some things "near" but around 3 corners may not appear on radar, but they will not instantly appear in front of you, either.

PS : human radar is already inacurate and lags a lot. It wouldn't matter at all if it was all server side

Trust me, it would...

PPS : you say radar is a client side thing ? Wrong : it is both. Radar is linked to what the server considers relevant information. If the server considers that player A cannot see player B because B isn't in the PVS of player A, then A doesn't even know B is here and so, A cannot draw B in its radar. That's the exact cause of the radar bug.

Of course the client gets positional data from the server, where else? Okay, there is client prediction... but thats more like smoothing the details.
But the server does not get any PVS data from the client! The server sees the whole map all the time and calculates player positioning and actions. But PVS is totally clientside as it is work of the renderer! If PVS-data would be sent around you would have 10 times the network traffic and hell of a lag.
This is why wallhacks and the tremulous radar system are possible...

Danny

[Stof]

Megabite"]

Areaportals aren't meant to be placed inside doors only For my time of Unreal mapping...

According to all my sources Quake engine games can place areaportals only inside door brushes. I have tried to place them in a corridor but the best effect you get is simply nothing or a nice HOM.
As Unreal is a completely different engine you really cannot compare mapping features, even if they are called the same.

I'll have to test myself that some day. Looking at the feature description, it really looks like the same thing

Megabite"]

But from what I understand, hints would cause radar bugs too. I have quite often the problem that radar doesn't work around corners. Should we stop using hint brushed because of that too ? The only correct solution is to fix the radar bug.

Usually the next corner or two are calculated, even when there is a hint brush. The engine knows you may go around that corner in a few frames and precalculates enough to have a nice buffer. Of course some things "near" but around 3 corners may not appear on radar, but they will not instantly appear in front of you, either.

PS : human radar is already inacurate and lags a lot. It wouldn't matter at all if it was all server side

Trust me, it would...

On the other hand, if the client knows where to place the blips, it's because the server told them where are the players/buildings. Now if the server started to send "radar blip" objects along with the player info with the difference that radar blips are only sent by proximity, clients would get a perfectly accurate radar without PVS problems.

Megabite"]But the server does not get any PVS data from the client! The server sees the whole map all the time and calculates player positioning and actions. But PVS is totally clientside as it is work of the renderer! If PVS-data would be sent around you would have 10 times the network traffic and hell of a lag.
This is why wallhacks and the tremulous radar system are possible...

Danny

Now, that's where I do not agree with you ! Question, why does items behind a closed door with an areaportal disapear from the radar ? Answer : because the server didn't tell the client about them. How does the server knows the client cannot see them ? The exact same way the client decides which part of the level it can see. And so, at each place the PVS for the client includes the whole level, the server will send those players all the info about all the entities in the game.

[[db@]Megabite]

On the other hand, if the client knows where to place the blips, it's because the server told them where are the players/buildings. Now if the server started to send "radar blip" objects along with the player info with the difference that radar blips are only sent by proximity, clients would get a perfectly accurate radar without PVS problems.

Now, that's where I do not agree with you ! Question, why does items behind a closed door with an areaportal disapear from the radar ? Answer : because the server didn't tell the client about them.

Wrong, because the areaportal blocks PVS on the renderer.

How does the server knows the client cannot see them ? The exact same way the client decides which part of the level it can see. And so, at each place the PVS for the client includes the whole level, the server will send those players all the info about all the entities in the game.

Player positioning has nothing to do with PVS! The server calculates all player and entity positions and sends the to the client. The renderer on the client decides by VIS data in the bsp which parts of the map (filled with client and entity positions by the server) are drawn, depending on the position of the client player camera.
And for a last time: PVS is a technique to increase framerate on the client by not drawing things that cannot be seen.
The server does not care what the player can see, it only cares what a player can hit (either by shooting or by standing on or by running into), that is called collision detection and has nothing, repeat nothing, to do with PVS.

Danny