Author Topic: Imbalanced? (Read 34986 times)

Neo · « **Reply #30 on:** May 30, 2006, 11:08:43 am »

You mean that tiny room you can just shoot straight up into with a luci? Just because you can't walk there doesn't mean you can't damage stuff.

Liszasabi · « **Reply #31 on:** May 30, 2006, 07:25:28 pm »

Reduce speed EXCEPT foward..? We can make him jump lower, bigger hitboxes but it may be just to make aliens happy for making bsuit "weaker". But still main problem is that bsuit is rly rly too fast, you can sprint like Tyrant charge for 4x longer than him and anytime, no way to flee with any class

SLAVE|Mietz · « **Reply #32 on:** May 30, 2006, 07:47:44 pm »

Quote from: "Liszasabi"

Reduce speed EXCEPT foward..? We can make him jump lower, bigger hitboxes but it may be just to make aliens happy for making bsuit "weaker". But still main problem is that bsuit is rly rly too fast, you can sprint like Tyrant charge for 4x longer than him and anytime, no way to flee with any class

No, AFAIK a tyrant-charge has speed 2.0 and a sprinting BS 1,8 or sth.

Seti · « **Reply #33 on:** May 30, 2006, 08:25:41 pm »

From my time playing, i find the game is a bit imbalanced in favor of the humans, at least in the first stage or two. Third i think leans towards the aliens. I think a big part of the imbalance currently is just how fast the humans are. They all move like olympic sprinters, and are just about as fast as any of the aliens, AND they have guns. Kinda silly considering their opponents are melee only, they don't need to be that fast at all. (Especially the battlesuit, the speed at which it moves is just absurd)

Also, the dretch vs the rifle marine is way out of whack in my opinion. Its alot harder to start off with the bugs than it is with the marines. Some of the weapons are a bit imbalanced as well, but lots of people have touched on those.

As to how to address some of these issues, here is what i would suggest:

Slow down the humans. All of them. Substantially. Buff Dretch damage, but leave its hp as is. Buff the Basilisk damage and or armor as well. Increase the battlesuite health/armor and ammo capacity, but make it VERY slow (and relatively slow turning as well). I haven't had enough experience with the Tyrant to comment on its issues, if it has them. I'll leave that for those with the experience to say for certain.

Well, thats my opinion on the imbalance matter.

SLAVE|Mietz · « **Reply #34 on:** May 30, 2006, 09:09:19 pm »

Quote from: "Seti"

From my time playing, i find the game is a bit imbalanced in favor of the humans, at least in the first stage or two. Third i think leans towards the aliens. I think a big part of the imbalance currently is just how fast the humans are. They all move like olympic sprinters, and are just about as fast as any of the aliens, AND they have guns. Kinda silly considering their opponents are melee only, they don't need to be that fast at all. (Especially the battlesuit, the speed at which it moves is just absurd)

Also, the dretch vs the rifle marine is way out of whack in my opinion. Its alot harder to start off with the bugs than it is with the marines. Some of the weapons are a bit imbalanced as well, but lots of people have touched on those.

As to how to address some of these issues, here is what i would suggest:

Slow down the humans. All of them. Substantially. Buff Dretch damage, but leave its hp as is. Buff the Basilisk damage and or armor as well. Increase the battlesuite health/armor and ammo capacity, but make it VERY slow (and relatively slow turning as well). I haven't had enough experience with the Tyrant to comment on its issues, if it has them. I'll leave that for those with the experience to say for certain.

Well, thats my opinion on the imbalance matter.

omg use the search-function, if any new player starts a new thread about how trem is unbalanced (and now anyone does!) we will have 1337-threads about it.

Seti · « **Reply #35 on:** May 30, 2006, 09:53:46 pm »

Quote from: "SLAVE|Mietz"

Quote from: "Seti"
From my time playing, i find the game is a bit imbalanced in favor of the humans, at least in the first stage or two. Third i think leans towards the aliens. I think a big part of the imbalance currently is just how fast the humans are. They all move like olympic sprinters, and are just about as fast as any of the aliens, AND they have guns. Kinda silly considering their opponents are melee only, they don't need to be that fast at all. (Especially the battlesuit, the speed at which it moves is just absurd)

Also, the dretch vs the rifle marine is way out of whack in my opinion. Its alot harder to start off with the bugs than it is with the marines. Some of the weapons are a bit imbalanced as well, but lots of people have touched on those.

As to how to address some of these issues, here is what i would suggest:

Slow down the humans. All of them. Substantially. Buff Dretch damage, but leave its hp as is. Buff the Basilisk damage and or armor as well. Increase the battlesuite health/armor and ammo capacity, but make it VERY slow (and relatively slow turning as well). I haven't had enough experience with the Tyrant to comment on its issues, if it has them. I'll leave that for those with the experience to say for certain.

Well, thats my opinion on the imbalance matter.

omg use the search-function, if any new player starts a new thread about how trem is unbalanced (and now anyone does!) we will have 1337-threads about it.

What nonsense are you spewing? Why would i make a new thread about general balance when there is already one on the first page addressing the very subject?

b0rsuk · « **Reply #36 on:** May 31, 2006, 04:15:51 am »

If I understand source code well, wearing light armor drains 4 stamina ... per second, I think. I think the time unit was not specified.
However, campersuit does not drain stamina at all unless you jump or sprint.

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Nothing in trem is faster than the marauder. Especially once you learn to use walls.

I know some walljumping shortcuts which can save you 20ish seconds.
But walls are your doom on many maps. It depends on map design. Marauders especially hate diagonal walls (like those near elevator room on Kalith). Additionaly, some maps have lots of snags to annoy marauders. For example... ugh... the name with glass pipe, I think it's Nexus. If you're attacking human base in starting position, only 1 entrance is viable for you, because the other has awful lot of snags AND diagonal walls. The entrance path leading from bridge over glass pipe is a marauder deathzone unless you have bigger aliens with you.

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Dretches may walk faster but marauders jump; they jump high and they jump fast.

And precisely because they jump high (and no way around it) they can be very vulnerable to snags on many maps. I'd love to have an ability for smaller, lower jumps with marauder.

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Marauders can kill battlesuits, not easy but hey we're talking about a stage 2 alien versus a stage 3 armor.

Sure they can, it just takes awful amount of time. Sometimes, if a campersuit is retreating and backpedaling, it's a good idea to NOT jump and stand in it's way. Zap is good because it doesn't care if it hits legs. This makes job easier for other aliens.
About stage 2 vs stage3:
ever noticed that humans aren't affected by such sentiments ? Many tyrants and dragoons have been machinegunned. Stage2 (i think) flamer burns adv dragoons and tyrants just fine. I've killed many dragoons and tyrants with shotgun. A painsaw can easily kill several buildings before aliens realize what's going on... some people can kill aliens well with it. Stage2 pulse rifle is good against everything - buildings, small aliens, big aliens; it just sucks at long range. And how about stage1 chaingun ? Does it suck ?
What I don't like about aliens is that they're very inflexible, each alien has its pros and cons, while almost all human weapons are good at range and used in similar way. Humans can easily change equipment, aliens - only to higher evolution. Humans have no problem evolving to builder.
By the way, if anyone's listening, aliens should be allowed evolving to granger if they're very close to egg. This would make them more flexible while preventing dretch-granger abuse and making adv.granger pointless.

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The only thing that is needed is experience on them. I even prefer them over goons and tyrants for base destruction. Every alien class needs experience and I understand that it's hard to get but once mastered marauders can easily outmatch humans even when they're in groups.

I've been playing basically only marauders for last 2 months or something, if it tells you something.
Marauders have their upsides, but they need some breathing room. They suck in tight, twisted corridors; in places with diagonal walls, and lots of snags. They make you lose momentum, and being close to wall is dangerous ( especially lucy and flamer). A bit more open spaces and longer corridors make them shine.

KorJax · « **Reply #37 on:** May 31, 2006, 04:55:40 pm »

Dretches are perfectly fine as it is. The problem is that they are usless in later stages, and it sucks to be a late joiner with them.

Ive suggest a method that if you join a game you havent played before and its later on in the game, you automatically get 2 evo points (or 250-300 credits). I detailed it even more in my other suggestion thread, read there if you want more info on the matter.

Why are dretches fine as is? Against an S1 team, sure they have no real ability to attack bases. That is not the purpose of S1. S1 Alien team cannot, and really should not, attack human bases unless the moment calls for it (like a reactor move), and/or many people are higher evolutions.

Pit a dretch against a human player. Who will win? Assuming the dretch knows good dretch tactics and knows never to attack head on with them, most of the time the dretch will win. A good dretch player can kill a human in 1-2 hits. A good dretch knows never to attack head on twords a human unless you specifically need to (aka in a vent or such... even then its best to retreat and lure the human out of the vents, or take an alternate route).

At S1, i many times can survive against even a small group of 2-3 humans as a dretch. They are small, fast, and can out-manuver like no other alien can. The ONLY weakness dretches really have is long range encounters (they are best used to ambush groups, not attack from across a hallway on purpose), and even then they still might be better off than other aliens at long range due to thier size. They also have no real ablility to attack bases.

Its just that they are not suited to fight those who are heavily armored (such as Bsuits), which IMO it takes way to many hits from a dretch to kill one.

You guys are forgetting somthing very major. Aliens ARE NOT attacker's at heart. They are preditors, thier mission at early levels in the game is not to destroy the enemy team, but to SURVIVE and hunt stragglers. They should not show themselves to finally destroy the opposition really untill S2+S3 as a basic rule of thumb. There can and will be exceptions, depending on the situation. But against a GOOD human team and GOOD human base, you generally should not be *activly* attacking the human base at all during S1, and most of the time S2, because its not Aliens style, and its not within thier best ability. At S3, which you should get quickly if your a good alien team that knows how to hunt and not attack, is when you should start tyring to *activly* attack a base against a good human team.

Morphed · « **Reply #38 on:** June 01, 2006, 01:48:44 pm »

"Pit a dretch against a human player. Who will win? Assuming the dretch knows good dretch tactics and knows never to attack head on with them, most of the time the dretch will win."

"Nothing in trem is faster than the marauder. Especially once you learn to use walls."

and more quotes like "you need to learn to use it"

and i think these is the bigest problem
aliens need 10x more skill and exiprence to play than humans
as human BS+ chaingun i can even playe and answer phone
as alien i need to concetrate all game, use all my skill to kill human who need just to circle strafe and press fire

for me balance means that 2 players at same skill in diferent teams have 50% chances to kill eachother

even maps are made agnist aliens, all these details on walls and ceilings make wall walking and wall jumping realy hard. Its triumph of form over content, some parts of map even hit fps badly becouse of these

phaedrus · « **Reply #39 on:** June 01, 2006, 05:23:52 pm »

Quote from: "b0rsuk"

Quote

Nothing in trem is faster than the marauder. Especially once you learn to use walls.

I know some walljumping shortcuts which can save you 20ish seconds.
But walls are your doom on many maps. It depends on map design. Marauders especially hate diagonal walls (like those near elevator room on Kalith). Additionaly, some maps have lots of snags to annoy marauders. For example... ugh... the name with glass pipe, I think it's Nexus. If you're attacking human base in starting position, only 1 entrance is viable for you, because the other has awful lot of snags AND diagonal walls. The entrance path leading from bridge over glass pipe is a marauder deathzone unless you have bigger aliens with you.

The pipe room is a pain. However, it isn't intractable. You just need to look at it differently. I like to get on top of the pipe via one of the ends, and then either make my way to one of the doors, or go for the ceiling decorations and up to the catwalk on the second level from there (if you are running, this puts you pretty close to the human base, though). You pick the right brushes at the end of the pipe, and wall jumping to the top isn't too bad. The other way out is to drop to the floor and head for the ladder, the walls around it are nice and smooth, so they are easily jumped.

Usually, even in annoying spots for marauders, there is some wall jump path that is faster/workable, if non-obvious. The pipe room took me a while to figure out.

Marauder shortcuts are invaluable. And they are everywhere. Human runs up certain flights of stairs, you can wall jump up them and jump them when they thought you were behind them.

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.
By the way, if anyone's listening, aliens should be allowed evolving to granger if they're very close to egg. This would make them more flexible while preventing dretch-granger abuse and making adv.granger pointless.

Or, let the OM reclaim me and pump me out an egg! Something to get back to granger that doesn't allow people to wallwalk and devolve (blowing away adv granger's purpose). But something!

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The only thing that is needed is experience on them. I even prefer them over goons and tyrants for base destruction. Every alien class needs experience and I understand that it's hard to get but once mastered marauders can easily outmatch humans even when they're in groups.

I've been playing basically only marauders for last 2 months or something, if it tells you something.
Marauders have their upsides, but they need some breathing room. They suck in tight, twisted corridors; in places with diagonal walls, and lots of snags. They make you lose momentum, and being close to wall is dangerous ( especially lucy and flamer). A bit more open spaces and longer corridors make them shine.

I'm with b0rsuk, wall snags suck as marauder.

Jeff

next_ghost · « **Reply #40 on:** August 12, 2006, 05:37:44 pm »

Quote from: "b0rsuk"

If I understand source code well, wearing light armor drains 4 stamina ... per second, I think. I think the time unit was not specified.
However, campersuit does not drain stamina at all unless you jump or sprint.

The time unit is 100ms and light armor stamina drain is also sprint-only (game/g_active.c 1.1.0 lines 480-501, r809 lines 467-488). With 1000 stamina points max, that makes these results:
Naked/helmet only: 12.5s of sprint
Light armor/light armor + helmet: 25s of sprint
Battlesuit: 12.5s of sprint
Humans sprint at 120% running speed regardless of equipment.

May I ask why does the light armor half the sprint stamina drain (and thus double your sprint range) while battlesuits can sprint for the same time as naked humans?

Henners · « **Reply #41 on:** August 12, 2006, 05:51:09 pm »

Aieeeee thread necromancy! flee this accursed place!

SLAVE|Mietz · « **Reply #42 on:** August 12, 2006, 06:10:28 pm »

next_ghost · « **Reply #43 on:** August 12, 2006, 06:52:13 pm »

So you'd like a new thread for this question? I had to ask that and here are already questions about stamina/sprinting.

Anyway, coding forum would be helpful here. Right now, the only place to talk about code is the Bugzilla. And it's a little inappropriate to just ask questions there, Bugzilla is supposed to be for reporting bugs and requesting features, not to for just talking.

Juno · « **Reply #44 on:** August 12, 2006, 07:52:04 pm »

OBJECTION!

Henners · « **Reply #45 on:** August 13, 2006, 12:12:40 am »

Oi, leave the objections to me.

As far as sprinting range goes, its a minor issue - I've only ever "blacked out" twice in game, and those were due to pissing about rather than anything else.

If you want a logic reason, the battlesuit is a "powered suit", so it makes sense you dont blackout until the "normal" blacking out time, where as the light armour physically encumbers you, so you blackout faster. But since you barely ever blackout in either armour I wouldnt really worry about it.

whitebear · « **Reply #46 on:** August 13, 2006, 12:13:35 am »

If someone says that s1 is not for attaking against human base then i have to say "You lack experiece, newbie!". We tested rush tactic and humans died under 5 minutes... basicly in atcs we just rushed on first humans that came out of their cave and evolved to all forms with no pausing for human base rebuilding... GAME IS NOT BALANCED! If you would remove tyrant and bs game would be balanced majorly... But we don't want to remove 'em, do we?
We need to config them or replace them...

Juno · « **Reply #47 on:** August 13, 2006, 12:34:09 am »

Quote from: "Henners"

Oi, leave the objections to me.

well to be fair someone had to point that fact out

SLAVE|Mietz · « **Reply #48 on:** August 13, 2006, 05:39:33 am »

Quote from: "whitebear"

If someone says that s1 is not for attaking against human base then i have to say "You lack experiece, newbie!". We tested rush tactic and humans died under 5 minutes... basicly in atcs we just rushed on first humans that came out of their cave and evolved to all forms with no pausing for human base rebuilding... GAME IS NOT BALANCED! If you would remove tyrant and bs game would be balanced majorly... But we don't want to remove 'em, do we?
We need to config them or replace them...

you, dear sir, are a noob.

next_ghost · « **Reply #49 on:** August 13, 2006, 08:26:29 am »

Quote from: "Henners"

If you want a logic reason, the battlesuit is a "powered suit", so it makes sense you dont blackout until the "normal" blacking out time, where as the light armour physically encumbers you, so you blackout faster. But since you barely ever blackout in either armour I wouldnt really worry about it.

You're don't pay attention, do you?

Naked/helmet only: 12.5s of sprint
Light armor/light armor + helmet: 25s of sprint
Battlesuit: 12.5s of sprint

Naked/helmet only/battlesuit will begin to black out after 18.75 seconds of sprint. Light armor/light armor + helmet will begin to black out after 37.5 seconds of sprint.

PHREAK · « **Reply #50 on:** August 13, 2006, 09:27:01 am »

I guess larmor is made of a geneticly enhanced material made for marathon runners as a replacement for steroids, but somehow ended up in a military shipment by mistake?
To bad it's only good for running and pedicure friendly dretches.

What's helmet only get you?

Henners · « **Reply #51 on:** August 13, 2006, 11:09:33 am »

Oh fair enough I did misread your post, however my main point stands. Really, who cares? What difference does it really make? Was it worth this hideous thread necromancy?

News:

Author Topic: Imbalanced? (Read 34986 times)