Planned Development Games

[frazzler]

Okey I would like to say something about balance changes. First of all there are alot players wich are playing ul and alot who doens't. So balance changes for each "style" shouldn't be excatcly the same. (I am playing without unlagged) After my long adventure in tremulous i noticed that unlagged and "lagged" doesnt make big diffrence, only ul claw/bitt/chomp range is retarded.

What I like:
-Slower Granger. (This is builder, he should be slower without big chances to ran from hummies.)
-Tyrant with 350hp. (Now everyone agree, tyrant was a bit too easy, now chainsuits and lucis have bigger chances to kill it without team.)
-Mark deconstruct, new cvars and some other server-side client cmds.
-Poision change. (Better chances vs. hummies on  st2.)
-Dretch doesn't deal damage 96hp to naked human but still he is able to kill in 2 bitts.
-Hive.
-Graphic changes.

What I don't like:

-New basi. Now it's overpowered. I don't know why the hell you made it better? Actually basi was really powerfull against all humans. Even if he couldn't fully grab a bs he was still usefull teammate. And basi has healing aura? Now I need to ask player to evolve to basi ?

Do not change basi, except silent footsteps. Nothing more.

- New Marauder - okey thats really stupid. Actually in 1.1 games good adv/normal maras are able to kill armored human with helmet. Now it started to be _really_ easy. Bigger range, weird jump... erm?  And zap? Zap never should be better than claw. Instead of making zapp better reduce time between single zap and single claw. A _bit_ better range should be good imho.

- Dragoon. Hmm, well dragoon seems to be fine thought. A bit reduced range makes it more balanced but I've strange feeling playing it. It seems a bit slower? Oh and I forget to add. Pounce damage is just test right?

-Dretch. Actually  dretchies are useless on unlagged, a bit more usefull on lagged but its still almost the same. Normal ul player is able to kill 1-2 dretchies with one clip,good  lagged player with 1 clip. I think dretch should be a little better, because players are getting skilled. But I am not really sure what should be changed: hp, speed, bite speed ? I'd suggest a little hp bonus.

- Alien Regen. Tremulous is dynamic game as someone in this thread said "a little longer regen could be good but not that much"  - yes, very slow regeneration makes the game boring and slooower.  As I remember it is 1/3 normal regen, better change it to 2/3.

-New Human dodage... What should I say. I don't like it. Humans gain actually more stamina in 1.2. That's enough to change.  Now they can avoid aliens chomping by a triple jump for example. What aboud adding cvar like "g_humandodge 0/1" ? Atleast players will decide if they want to play with it or not.

-Shootgun. Why the hell have you reduced his power? I am good swith sg, now I can't kill a simple nub dretch with it while he is few virtual meters to me? Leave shootgun alone please...

-Lasgun: Should be a bit faster. It's easy to use it in ul, but on lagged its horrible hard even for good players.

I am not sure:

-Building changes in humans. It may be innovatory, because aliens won't rush as they used to do it. Now with teslas they will need adv. goons instead of all tyrants.

Sorry for my english.

I disagree with alot of that. As i can tell, you play as a human. As you know, humans win lot of games. As i can tell, you are upset that humasn will no longer win all the time. Marauders zap, (if you tried it) is incredibly hard to aim. The basi, is being fixed, not ruined. True, rants will have smaller hp and will be easier targets. But i agree that dretchies need to be fixed. I also agree that the aliens regen should not be 1/3 but 2/3. Good call. There are Pros who can easily wreal havoc on a poor human base but there are far more unskilled basi players. They are fixing the basi. But they have to ask to be one? what shit is that?

[mooseberry]

...As i can tell, you play as a human. As you know, humans win lot of games. As i can tell, you are upset that humasn will no longer win all the time...

...I was going to link to stats, but apparently it's password protected.

[Norfenstein]

Euro server (edev.tremulous.net) game today. Join now!

[Sayeru]

I disagree with alot of that. As i can tell, you play as a human. As you know, humans win lot of games. As i can tell, you are upset that humasn will no longer win all the time. Marauders zap, (if you tried it) is incredibly hard to aim. The basi, is being fixed, not ruined.

Aliens are winning most of FFA matches, humans are winning clan wars. I don't care much about FFA.

New basi is really overpowered, its ruined, it seems u havent played basi well. With 1 evo you are able to kill a lucifercannon guy atleast sg+arm set. Now you can kill a battlesuit if you try harder? Basi was just class for good gamers, newbies weren't using it because it was too hard, now as Is saw today nuubies used it easly, I spent alot time training my basi thats aint fair, isnt it?

Gosh I made such a big posts and ofcourse even single dev didnt give me an answer...

[Asvarox]

Aliens are winning most of FFA matches, humans are winning clan wars. I don't care much about FFA.

Free For All in trem? :O

New basi is really overpowered, its ruined, it seems u havent played basi well. With 1 evo you are able to kill a lucifercannon guy atleast sg+arm set. Now you can kill a battlesuit if you try harder? Basi was just class for good gamers, newbies weren't using it because it was too hard, now as Is saw today nuubies used it easly, I spent alot time training my basi thats aint fair, isnt it?

It seems that you have killed a player who didn't get used with new luci, or 999 ping bsuit. I agree that basi is quite too strong at s1 humans. But if you saw "nuubies" using it easily, they probably weren't than new since newbies usually run with every class in a straight line and lisk have even less hp than in 1.1

btw. In 1.1 you are able to kill default sensitivity chainsuit as lisky with low ping if you try harder

btw2 http://pts.p2a.pl/viewtopic.php?id=420



I was playing yesterday and I found luci really powerful with missiles faster than pulse rifle's ones. It's not really hard to kill a rant if you spot him from larger distance and with dodging it's not really hard (still not so easy) to kill it in CQC. I still disagree with new luci, I'd rather see old good luci with normal, "feelable" chargin and slightly faster missiles.
Oh and it doesn't seem so slow now

[amz181]

I was playing yesterday and I found luci really powerful with missiles faster than pulse rifle's ones. It's not really hard to kill a rant if you spot him from larger distance and with dodging it's not really hard (still not so easy) to kill it in CQC. I still disagree with new luci, I'd rather see old good luci with normal, "feelable" chargin and slightly faster missiles.
Oh and it doesn't seem so slow now

The point i have been trying to make all along. I really dont understand the logic behind it. I would have thought you would have changed it straight away.

[Sayeru]

It seems that you have killed a player who didn't get used with new luci, or 999 ping bsuit. I agree that basi is quite too strong at s1 humans. But if you saw "nuubies" using it easily, they probably weren't than new since newbies usually run with every class in a straight line and lisk have even less hp than in 1.1

I was talking about old lucifer cannon. And guess what, basi might kill a good player with lc [Ofcourse it depends of situation]. It happens even on serious clan wars.

1.2 Basilisk is far far stronger than orginal one, so its easier to use, easier for everyone. Including new players.

Meh, I call normal games "ffa".

[Norfenstein]

US server this week, 20 minutes from now.

We're trying a slight change to the marauder zap: full damage is dealt instantly, instead of over the course of one second.

[Annihilation]

I played more thoroughly recently and here's some of my opinion.

Maruader is almost pointless to use regular with slashes now, and overpowered with zap.  The whole point of mara was its hit and run feature, even if it was hard to hit with, that was the whole way it worked.  Difficult manuverability = hard for humans to aim at.  Now its basically a slightly faster goon without pounce, and some nuke hazard area attack at advanced.

I don't like the way build points are obtained back so slowly, I like the concept of getting 1 at a time, but it feels like it takes 2-3 times as long to get your points back in the long run because of it, I found myself not standing a chance of keeping a base rebuilt as oncoming humans killed it.  My build timer definately pwned the bp return timer by a long shot.  One good rush would leave me 4-5 minutes out from getting all my bps back, which is just ridiculous.

Lucifer Cannon, it was about prediction, not literally bringing about the wrath of the all mighty satan himself.

Goon pounce, I was able to pounce kill 3 s2 shotties in a group of 4-5 humans almost consistantly, against decent players.  Its way too strong now.  I like the goons range of width reducement though, more balanced.

Dretches not doing 96, I'm on the fence on this.  This eliminates easy poison kills against campers, but at the same time makes those annoying ass pollacks bleeders less of a problem.

Healing, mmh, I like it so far, as long as you can convince someone to stay close by as basi its not too bad.  It definately makes the booster more manditory.

Tyrant maul, also too strong imo.


What I would suggest.

Slow luci the fuck down.
Slighty increase mara jump height and speed, and reduce zap's power.
Decrease goon pounce damage, make it 75% what it is now tops.
Decrease Tyrant maul damage to about 50% what it is now, you shouldn't be able to completely rape a chainsuit with maul.
Increase the speed on build points returning, up to double or possibly even triple the rate it happens now.



Thats just my opinion imo.

The rest seemed to be pretty good.

[Kaine]

Thats just my opinion imo.

What's wrong with that statement?

On a serious note, I'd say I agree with pretty much all of the points Annihilation made, and especially the ones regarding the new Marauder.

[Annihilation]

Thats just my opinion imo.

What's wrong with that statement?

On a serious note, I'd say I agree with pretty much all of the points Annihilation made, and especially the ones regarding the new Marauder.

I can say in my opinion its my opinoin

On your opinion it could be somebody else opinion that I'm just standing point to like a lamb.

Oh well

[Norfenstein]

Euro server game in 15 minutes.

[Norfenstein]

Maruader is almost pointless to use regular with slashes now, and overpowered with zap.

I can't agree with this. You can do 100 damage per second with the slash (150 with headshots) versus 40 damage per second with the zap. So if you're not hitting 2-3 targets with the zap it's not usually worth it.

I found myself not standing a chance of keeping a base rebuilt as oncoming humans killed it.

That's exactly the point - to not let you rebuild your base before the next wave of humans even arrive. Maybe it'd be nice if the return rate were faster with more builders present, but overall I think this has been a positive change. The best thing to do is just evolve and help repel the humans; by the time they exhaust their credits most of your points will be back.

Lucifer Cannon, it was about prediction, not literally bringing about the wrath of the all mighty satan himself.

I'd say in 1.1 it was more about spamming incessantly...

Tyrant maul, also too strong imo.

Only thing that's changed about this since 1.1 is that it's harder to hit with (shorter range and narrower width). I don't want to lower its damage output since right now it's already exactly the same as the advanced goon.

Slighty increase mara jump height and speed

The slightly lower jump height is better for marauders - easier to get headshots, easier to strafe jump, and less time in the air is less time that you can't dodge. Kevlarman says the apparent speed reduction is a bug, but frankly, if that slight decrease is the tradeoff for the improved walljumping I don't mind at all (it's not like marauders now suddenly have a difficult time running away from things).

[UniqPhoeniX]

Thought I'd say all this on IRC, but...
Goon pounce distance has changed? Jump/pounce changes (esp human, goon, dretch) can make many maps work differently if you now can/can't access different areas.
Also dodge gets too far: its possible to clear atcs gap with it, making it not an advantage to good players (so its not possible to make gaps that require good strafing (not uber, dodge is a bit shorter)).
Btw why not move dodging to jumping (or jumping while sprinting), (they both take stamina anyway)? It would still be possible to sprint backwards.

When I'm dead and spec a teammate who is dead, I dont see the "following <name>" msg.
On screen messages don't default to ^7 color, they keep the color from last message.
I somehow managed to get 'Cannot spawn as Spectator' while in spawn queue.
Unnamed player disconnect message is just " disconnected"
Dretch model seems to be a bit above the ground.
What about having some flooding algorithm for power/creep range (so you can't build in some unconnected area if its behind a wall from RC).
How have buildable HPs changed?
Cant toggle blaster right after shooting

[kevlarman]

Thought I'd say all this on IRC, but...
Goon pounce distance has changed? Jump/pounce changes (esp human, goon, dretch) can make many maps work differently if you now can/can't access different areas.

afaik it hasn't changed

Also dodge gets too far: its possible to clear atcs gap with it, making it not an advantage to good players (so its not possible to make gaps that require good strafing (not uber, dodge is a bit shorter)).

sprint generally helps more than a good circle jump, so it doesn't really matter.

Btw why not move dodging to jumping (or jumping while sprinting), (they both take stamina anyway)? It would still be possible to sprint backwards.

When I'm dead and spec a teammate who is dead, I dont see the "following <name>" msg.
On screen messages don't default to ^7 color, they keep the color from last message.
I somehow managed to get 'Cannot spawn as Spectator' while in spawn queue.
Unnamed player disconnect message is just " disconnected"
Dretch model seems to be a bit above the ground.
What about having some flooding algorithm for power/creep range (so you can't build in some unconnected area if its behind a wall from RC).

report these here (actually the unnamed one isn't an mgdev bug, but w/e)

How have buildable HPs changed?

easiest way is to just grab a ckit/granger and build one of everything. hopefully we'll have a proper changelog soon

Cant toggle blaster right after shooting

notabug

[Annihilation]

Maruader is almost pointless to use regular with slashes now, and overpowered with zap.

I can't agree with this. You can do 100 damage per second with the slash (150 with headshots) versus 40 damage per second with the zap. So if you're not hitting 2-3 targets with the zap it's not usually worth it.

I found myself not standing a chance of keeping a base rebuilt as oncoming humans killed it.

That's exactly the point - to not let you rebuild your base before the next wave of humans even arrive. Maybe it'd be nice if the return rate were faster with more builders present, but overall I think this has been a positive change. The best thing to do is just evolve and help repel the humans; by the time they exhaust their credits most of your points will be back.

Lucifer Cannon, it was about prediction, not literally bringing about the wrath of the all mighty satan himself.

I'd say in 1.1 it was more about spamming incessantly...

Tyrant maul, also too strong imo.

Only thing that's changed about this since 1.1 is that it's harder to hit with (shorter range and narrower width). I don't want to lower its damage output since right now it's already exactly the same as the advanced goon.

Slighty increase mara jump height and speed

The slightly lower jump height is better for marauders - easier to get headshots, easier to strafe jump, and less time in the air is less time that you can't dodge. Kevlarman says the apparent speed reduction is a bug, but frankly, if that slight decrease is the tradeoff for the improved walljumping I don't mind at all (it's not like marauders now suddenly have a difficult time running away from things).

If you have issues running with the current marauder, you don't know how to use it.  This mara's shorter jumps make building up a great solid speed along walls a lot more difficult.  Its not marauder anymore at all, its a slightly faster goon.

Zap overpowers slash because slash is 15 times harder to hit.  You may be doing 100 dmg vs 40 dmg, but when you're only landing 3/5 slashes versus 5/5 zaps, the zap becomes a lot more overpowered, especially when you're zapping multiple people.

I don't think you should be able to rebuild instantly, but htis is way to slow, I'm lucky if I can get 8 build points back, by the time the next wave of humans come, you should get at least half of what was lost imo.  It feels like I'm getting 1bp every 10 seconds, which is just fucking ridiculous. 

Pollacks spam old luci, and this new one, is 10 times more effective for spam imo.  I'll sit in base with it, and you try to rush.

[Asvarox]

I don't think you should be able to rebuild instantly, but htis is way to slow, I'm lucky if I can get 8 build points back, by the time the next wave of humans come, you should get at least half of what was lost imo.  It feels like I'm getting 1bp every 10 seconds, which is just fucking ridiculous.

I believe it's 1bp every 7 seconds. Still freakin' slow.

Pollacks spam old luci

nowai i dont spam it

[UniqPhoeniX]

Thought I'd say all this on IRC, but...
Goon pounce distance has changed? Jump/pounce changes (esp human, goon, dretch) can make many maps work differently if you now can/can't access different areas.

afaik it hasn't changed

On arachnid2 I used to easily get to the ledge going to box room from below, now I can't. Also for example on karith +goon can barely pounce from bottom of large stairs room to above 3 sets of stairs.

Also dodge gets too far: its possible to clear atcs gap with it, making it not an advantage to good players (so its not possible to make gaps that require good strafing (not uber, dodge is a bit shorter)).

sprint generally helps more than a good circle jump, so it doesn't really matter.

sprint+strafejump = a simple backwards dodge, so it does matter. There should be a way for mappers to make difficult jumps IMO.
EDIT: just noticed, the jump height for humans is lower? It's not possible to get on barrels on niveus anymore.

[khalsa]

EDIT: just noticed, the jump height for humans is lower? It's not possible to get on barrels on niveus anymore.

This may or maynot be a bug. It will be looked into.


Khalsa

[kevlarman]

you can't sprint while strafe jumping.

[UniqPhoeniX]

Sprinting gives higher starting speed (for humans this is usually just 1 jump anyway) and it definitely improves my strafejump distance.

[kevlarman]

Sprinting gives higher starting speed (for humans this is usually just 1 jump anyway) and it definitely improves my strafejump distance.

as soon as you press left/right you will stop sprinting.

[UniqPhoeniX]

I think you are wrong there. I can definitely jump better on on edev with sprint, and left/right doesn't stop sprinting as long as I don't let go of forwards (I can see the stamina icon still flash).

[ThePyro]

I believe it's 1bp every 7 seconds. Still freakin' slow.

IMO the biggest problem with slow BP regeneration is not that it's unbalanced, but that it's boring.  If the rate is really 1 bp per 7 seconds then that's 56 seconds for a single turret/tube and 70 seconds for a spawn.  Your team's poor builder is forced to just sit there and twiddle his thumbs.  After a moderate attack in which you lost 3 tubes / turrets, that's nearly 3 minutes of waiting time.

The problem is slightly less pronounced for humans since a good player can quickly sell his ckit and shoot some aliens for 30 seconds after building something.  Unfortunately the poor grangers don't have this option.

Granted, builders are already accustomed to waiting after building.  The normal waiting time ( about 15 seconds?) isn't so bad, and it gives you time to think and set up the placement of your next structure.  But I can see quite a few grangers going stir-crazy once the wait time more than doubles.

[Annihilation]

I think the build time increase is fine, but its almost 4-5 times what it use to be, cut that shit in half.  It should be 30 seconds tops for a tube.

I mean, slow it down a little, it was a tad bit too easy to rebuild in time, but this is fucking ridiculous, its gone from a semi liberal almost inbetween to a die hard christian who thinks all gays should shoot be shot on site.

[Norfenstein]

US server game in 2 hours, 45 minutes.

I believe it's 1bp every 7 seconds. Still freakin' slow.

IMO the biggest problem with slow BP regeneration is not that it's unbalanced, but that it's boring.  If the rate is really 1 bp per 7 seconds then that's 56 seconds for a single turret/tube and 70 seconds for a spawn.  Your team's poor builder is forced to just sit there and twiddle his thumbs.  After a moderate attack in which you lost 3 tubes / turrets, that's nearly 3 minutes of waiting time.

The problem is slightly less pronounced for humans since a good player can quickly sell his ckit and shoot some aliens for 30 seconds after building something.  Unfortunately the poor grangers don't have this option.

After moderate attacks (as alien) I've taken to moving structures from rear positions to replace the front ones that went down, then rebuilding the rear ones once the points return. If all the defensive structures go down I can usually do more good evolving and defending until the threat recedes. As you say, as human it's much easier to just swap to a weapon while waiting and switch back later.

We'll try 6 seconds this week and next (I can't make it today's game), then decide if it's still too high (always easier to find the right balance for something if you over-do it first then gradually scale back). Also, this is a server setting, so whatever value we settle on will just be a default.

[Winnie the Pooh]

I believe it's 1bp every 7 seconds. Still freakin' slow.

IMO the biggest problem with slow BP regeneration is not that it's unbalanced, but that it's boring.  If the rate is really 1 bp per 7 seconds then that's 56 seconds for a single turret/tube and 70 seconds for a spawn.  Your team's poor builder is forced to just sit there and twiddle his thumbs.  After a moderate attack in which you lost 3 tubes / turrets, that's nearly 3 minutes of waiting time.

The problem is slightly less pronounced for humans since a good player can quickly sell his ckit and shoot some aliens for 30 seconds after building something.  Unfortunately the poor grangers don't have this option.

Granted, builders are already accustomed to waiting after building.  The normal waiting time ( about 15 seconds?) isn't so bad, and it gives you time to think and set up the placement of your next structure.  But I can see quite a few grangers going stir-crazy once the wait time more than doubles.

I have to say, I agree with you on that. You can be the best builder on the team, but it can still be relatively boring. I always wished I could just switch windows and browse the web or something while waiting for my build timer to go down except I might get killed or something else might happen. I'd very much like the ability to repair while your build timer is still up. It gives you something to do. Might have to cut the repair rate in half for the people who's build timer is still on though. That might balance it a little..

[UniqPhoeniX]

Another way is to have bps return faster if you are low on bps, and slower if you already have most. This way getting base fully up still takes a while (possibly even longer), but you can more easily keep a basic base up. Also with outposts, if you lose 1, you can build the next one sooner. It is still possible to slowly kill enemy base (the last few bps don't come back fast), and then rush to take down the rest.

[mooseberry]

I like that idea. You'd have to decide on the exact numbers, but having it come back somewhat quickly at first and gradually slowing down sounds good to me. Can we please test this?

[Annihilation]

I was going to suggest that, it sounds great.  If you're waiting on your last tube, I can see waiting the 54 seconds(48 with new time next week).  But if you lose your whole 100 build points, it will take 11 minutes and 40 seconds to get it all back, thats almost half a game most the time -_-

I think it should be something like this table

BPS Used,     Seconds per 1BPS regen
100-90                   6
89-80                     5.5
79-70                     5
69-60                     4.5
59-50                     4
49-40                     3.5
39-30                     3
29-20                     2.5
19-10                     2
9-0                         1

This way you can almost always build a tube at least, this would seem far more fair to me.

That would put it to 6 minutes for a whole rebuid, but allowing some small faster rebuilding if they keep blowing shit up really fast, giving you somewhat of a chance.  While imposing the solid 48 second wait still if they just get a quicky tube or something.