Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure

[fingered banana]

non sense discussion and a non sense fork
complete it before you advertising it ... but no you act like a 16 years old kid

[Amanieu]

non sense discussion and a non sense fork
complete it before you advertising it ... but no you act like a 16 years old kid

Non sense off topic post which bring nothing useful to the discussion.
(And I am 16 btw)

[gimhael]

Hi, sorry if I spoil your party by returning to the topic, but I wanted to state my opininon regarding sv_pure:

- even if the presence of a sv_pure / a similar system presents only a small technical challenge in an open source game, it still is a moral/psycological/maybe even legal obstacle for cheaters. So it should generally be kept, but of course it shouldn't get in the way of "harmless" modifications if possible.

- generally the server owner should be able to decide which mods are allowed on his server, just like the server owner can choose which players he allows on his server.

- the player also has to agree which mods he wants to use. Usually this agreement is given by the installation of the mod, but if auto-downloading is enabled, this may not be automatically assumed.

So in my opinion it should work like this: the server announces which pk3s are required and which additional pk3s are allowed. The client then has to check which of these paks he is allowed to use, by checking its configuration or asking the player. When the player chooses not to use a required pak, he can't join the game of course. If he chooses to use a pak not available locally, the client should try to download it.
Bonus points if the player could choose separately to allow only data or also qvms contained in the pak.

[fingered banana]

(And I am 16 btw)

that describes everything. hard times; you try to become an adult from a child. I should't have judged your actions. Sorry kid

[googles]

(And I am 16 btw)

that describes everything. hard times; you try to become an adult from a child. I should't have judged your actions. Sorry kid

Physical age does no define someones mental ability, he has no problem understanding the same things you do. so shut the fuck up.

[googles]

Not really sure if im risking ban here but oh well.

Alot of us know how to make pk3s work on pure servers, and so far, we have done this to create updated vm sets that help the client itself. So i propose why not just allow *hacked* pk3 files but only if their function is not to cheat...

[Lava Croft]

If you want server operators to disable sv_pure, you should contact the server operators. Discussing it with people who do not host a server will accomplish little more than mutual unfriendliness.

I suggest you guys go here and start contacting server operators and ask them if they want to disable sv_pure.

You can be fairly certain that sv_pure is here to stay, for a multitude of sane reasons, other than the usual "we are from this group and we have the monopoly on what we think Tremulous should be" type of whining. Therefore, a discussion like this serves no purpose, as most of the people who are discussing it here will make no difference to the (possible) decision wether sv_pure will stay or not, or wether any server will disable it.

[David]

Alot of us know how to make pk3s work on pure servers, and so far, we have done this to create updated vm sets that help the client itself. So i propose why not just allow *hacked* pk3 files but only if their function is not to cheat...

And who gets to choose what's cheating?  The server owner.  Oh look, that's what the current system is for.

[googles]

Alot of us know how to make pk3s work on pure servers, and so far, we have done this to create updated vm sets that help the client itself. So i propose why not just allow *hacked* pk3 files but only if their function is not to cheat...

And who gets to choose what's cheating?  The server owner.  Oh look, that's what the current system is for.

So i get no say in what i can and cannot use? I define what is a cheat and what is not. Can we get some more trust around here?

[fingered banana]

(And I am 16 btw)

that describes everything. hard times; you try to become an adult from a child. I should't have judged your actions. Sorry kid

Physical age does no define someones mental ability, he has no problem understanding the same things you do. so shut the fuck up.

Actually it does(simple fact: you can increase your mental abilities so mental abilities change by age). However I was referring the hormones and adolescence .
Talking about mental abilities... so "so shut the fuck up" tells me a lot about yours

[googles]

Odd..I usually know alot more than my peers...I can't see why age would affect my learning ability. :|

lets get back on topic...

[David]

So i get no say in what i can and cannot use? I define what is a cheat and what is not. Can we get some more trust around here?

When you are on my server, which I pay for, then no, you don't.  You obey my rules or find / make a server with rules you like.

[googles]

So i get no say in what i can and cannot use? I define what is a cheat and what is not. Can we get some more trust around here?

When you are on my server, which I pay for, then no, you don't.  You obey my rules or find / make a server with rules you like.

lol alright

[Syntac]

The pure check is like locking the door to your house. It's useless against a thief with a crowbar or a bunch of lockpicks. It only deters the guy who wanders around stealing stuff from unlocked houses.

Or, for you metaphorically-challenged people out there: Anyone who really, really wants to bypass the pure check can do so. The only protection it offers is against casual cheaters.

[Lava Croft]

Alot of us know how to make pk3s work on pure servers, and so far, we have done this to create updated vm sets that help the client itself. So i propose why not just allow *hacked* pk3 files but only if their function is not to cheat...

And who gets to choose what's cheating?  The server owner.  Oh look, that's what the current system is for.

So i get no say in what i can and cannot use? I define what is a cheat and what is not. Can we get some more trust around here?

The person who defines what is cheating and what is not is the person who defines the rules: The server operator.

I'll say it again: David does not host any servers, in fact, the servers belonging to his guild are mostly empty.
Therefore, wether David agrees with you about sv_pure or not, it won't change one iota about the fact that you need to contact server operators in order to get them to disable sv_pure. Even if David wanted to open up the gates of haxhell for you, he couldn't, since he cannot control the actions of other server operators, no matter how much he would like to.

Stop focussing your attention on the wrong people.

[PS] @googles & fingered banana: Stop bitching at each other, or take it to a private conversation.

[googles]

Alot of us know how to make pk3s work on pure servers, and so far, we have done this to create updated vm sets that help the client itself. So i propose why not just allow *hacked* pk3 files but only if their function is not to cheat...

And who gets to choose what's cheating?  The server owner.  Oh look, that's what the current system is for.

So i get no say in what i can and cannot use? I define what is a cheat and what is not. Can we get some more trust around here?

The person who defines what is cheating and what is not is the person who defines the rules: The server operator.

I'll say it again: David does not host any servers, in fact, the servers belonging to his guild are mostly empty.
Therefore, wether David agrees with you about sv_pure or not, it won't change one iota about the fact that you need to contact server operators in order to get them to disable sv_pure. Even if David wanted to open up the gates of haxhell for you, he couldn't, since he cannot control the actions of other server operators, no matter how much he would like to.

Stop focussing your attention on the wrong people.

[PS] @googles & fingered banana: Stop bitching at each other, or take it to a private conversation.

Well my direction isn't toward bypassing pure for the hell of it. What I would like to see is alot more trust in the community itself. tbh I would never use cheats since I love the game itself and i would rather play than let the computer do it for me..

[Lava Croft]

Even if the trust you think is missing would be applied to the community, it are still the server operators that decide the rules on their server.
So, you are still in the wrong place, talking to the wrong people.

To help you out, I will be the first to reply to your possible query concerning sv_pure:

SatGNU will not disable sv_pure.

[St. Anger]

If more people start cheating can't we just ban them like we always do? I don't get what people are concerned about.

(Real questions, not an argument)

[Syntac]

Of course! But sometimes it's hard to tell when someone is cheating.

[epsy]

If more people start cheating can't we just ban them like we always do?

most stuff that sv_pure prevents is hard to spot on a non-hacked client (unlike aimbots, for example)

anyway, IMHO sv_pure should only be enforced to critical parts of the game (eg. shaders shown in the 3D scene) while letting room for other stuff (eg. HUD)
that could be done with an idea I once expressed, that idea being using namespaces ( the main use of namespaces is to prevent "collision" between two identifiers, which is exactly what sv_pure does, but for shaders and other stuff )

[googles]

That wouldn't work since the cgame can also draw graphics onto the screen( as can the client )

[Posts]

idea:
people who oppose the current sv_pure 1 could choose to play on sv_pure 0 servers even if they don't have any modifications.

this will attract more people to those servers, and decrease the chances of people running into problems when they try to mod the game, (when i say it like this it almost sounds sinister) people will have the expectation of being able to mod the game and therefore get hooked on sv_pure 0, who will win: the love of modding or the fear of cheaters.

the sv_pure 0 servers are almost impossible to identify inside the default server browser.
here is a non intrusive method of identifying sv_pure 0 servers.
i included the list of servers returned so that we can get a better idea of how widespread sv_pure 0 is.

Code: [Select]

thanks to two people in irc for telling me
~"quakestat"
~"quakestat -R -tremulousm master.tremulous.net"

http://qstat.org/

$ qstat -R -ne -tremulousm master.tremulous.net | grep -B 1 "pure=0" | grep "TREM"
TREMULOUS 200.49.147.87:30720    4/24     atcs    266 / 0  base *
TREMULOUS 143.107.107.254:30720  7/32 gloom_b1    218 / 0  base Brasil Regular
TREMULOUS 66.197.220.238:30721   5/37 pushcannon_b3    110 / 0  base N  ---->  House of Nuts
TREMULOUS 174.132.18.150:30720   3/20     atcs     62 / 0  base OA
TREMULOUS 74.52.14.98:30720     18/32   karith     63 / 0  base o8DretchStorm
TREMULOUS 66.186.45.66:30721     5/40  volcano     32 / 0  base |SST|
connect:241.225.10.120:92: No such file or directory
TREMULOUS 75.132.213.91:30720    4/30     atcs    125 / 0  base   Snake's uBP Playground!
TREMULOUS 200.100.117.214:30720  1/20 pushcannon_b1    688 / 0  base {Escorpion=}Bots
TREMULOUS 91.121.159.48:30730    1/40     atcs    172 / 0  base TremFusion Test Server

$ qstat -R -tremulousm master.tremulous.net | grep -B 1 "pure=0" | grep "TREM"
TREMULOUS 88.191.23.11:30720     0/15 sirius-beta1    172 / 0  tremx BRICOSOFT TremX =) TremX.bricosoft.com FreeBSD.
TREMULOUS 217.70.191.95:30723    0/20     atcs    172 / 0  base Cheatorz - Cheats allowed !
TREMULOUS 72.36.153.139:30720    0/30 rotcannon_garbage_1     63 / 0  base a
TREMULOUS 200.232.215.207:60054  0/16 gamma_core-final    250 / 0  base Firen server
TREMULOUS 85.134.116.218:30720   0/13   karith    235 / 0  base CheeseMedia.net
TREMULOUS 200.49.147.87:30720    8/24     atcs    250 / 0  base *
TREMULOUS 67.186.69.253:32123    0/ 9  transit    110 / 0  base Sardonic Asylum
TREMULOUS 91.121.201.27:30720    0/10   niveus    172 / 0  base FRA:Debian/Lenny
TREMULOUS 143.107.107.254:30721  0/32   niveus    219 / 0  base Brasil - CF
TREMULOUS 91.121.201.27:30721    0/14     atcs    172 / 0  base =[-AS-]=Public
TREMULOUS 143.107.107.254:30720 10/32 gloom_b1    219 / 0  base Brasil Regular
TREMULOUS 66.197.220.238:30721   5/37 pushcannon_b3    110 / 0  base N  ---->  House of Nuts
TREMULOUS 66.197.220.238:30720   0/40   karith     94 / 0  base |SST|
TREMULOUS 66.197.220.238:30722   0/21     atcs    110 / 0  base {SST} Clan Server
TREMULOUS 90.177.114.207:32123   0/ 7   utcsb2    203 / 0  base CZ - Newkiller's Tremulous Public
TREMULOUS 174.132.18.150:30720   2/20     atcs     62 / 0  base OA
TREMULOUS 68.239.78.193:50165    0/64     atcs    344 / 0  base LASTSTAND SERVER
TREMULOUS 195.199.222.57:30720   0/13   niveus    204 / 0  base HUN (Agresszor) Reload!
TREMULOUS 65.249.227.124:30720   0/20 uncreation    125 / 0  base cat-man-du.com Tremulous 1.1.0
TREMULOUS 68.239.78.193:50238    0/64   nexus6    422 / 0  base CONTRA
TREMULOUS 72.78.48.107:30721     0/ 8   nexus6    109 / 0  base Rezyn's testing ground
TREMULOUS 74.52.14.98:30720     17/32   tremor     47 / 0  base o8DretchStorm
TREMULOUS 68.239.78.193:50762    0/64     atcs    360 / 0  base {DW} CLAN SERVER
TREMULOUS 66.186.45.66:30721     5/40  volcano     16 / 0  base |SST|
TREMULOUS 66.183.175.241:32123   0/13   niveus     93 / 0  base Dr.Mario's Fun Server
TREMULOUS 68.239.78.193:50763    0/64     atcs    453 / 0  base ZEEKMANS SERVER
TREMULOUS 205.234.142.225:30721  0/24     atcs     78 / 0  base BobsOCServer!
TREMULOUS 67.43.163.198:30720    0/22     atcs     16 / 0  base [OPP]ressed[ATCS]
TREMULOUS 68.239.78.193:50764    0/64   karith    453 / 0  base SIGMA
TREMULOUS 75.132.213.91:30720    4/30     atcs    125 / 0  base   Snake's uBP Playground!
connect:241.225.10.120:92: No such file or directory
TREMULOUS 72.222.161.141:64570   0/24     atcs     47 / 0  base Patrickland
TREMULOUS 200.100.117.214:30720  1/20 pushcannon_b1    453 / 0  base {Escorpion=}Bots
TREMULOUS 68.239.78.193:50907    0/64   tremor    359 / 0  base .:DT:. Clan FunServer
TREMULOUS 91.121.159.48:30730    1/40     atcs    172 / 0  base TremFusion Test Server


[Snake]

Oa ftw!

the love of modding or the fear of cheaters.

If more people start cheating can't we just !ban them like we always do? I don't get what people are concerned about.

And isnt like the love of the modding is moe like the needing of the moding (like to translate the client or another stuff that doesnt affect the gameplay.)

[Lava Croft]

I want to point out that while the people in favor of removing sv_pure keep on talking about how the sv_pure system is limiting the incentive to create mods for or use mods with Tremulous, they actually should stop talking, close their eyes, think for 5 seconds, and then open them again.

In those 5 seconds, you think about these things:

Quake III Arena
sv_pure
Modding Community
Tremulous

If you are not completely devoid of any kind of common sense, you would realize that the sv_pure system certainly did not limit the people wanting to create mods for or use mods with Quake III Arena.

[Amanieu]

In this case we are talking about client-side only minimods, like an updated font or a speed-meter in my HUD.
What Q3A promoted was complete mods, like rocket arena and tremulous.

[Lava Croft]

Again, even without your awesome feature, Quake III Arena went down pretty well with the modding community.
What you suggest is just not in balanced out that well. You want to give up the basic, crude cheat protection provided by sv_pure, in favor of letting a small amount of people -yes, most people will not use client-side minimods- hack their way to a Tremulous as they want to play it.

Now, if this was completely impossible with the current sv_pure system, you would have a point, but seeing that this 'problem' is solved by making sure server operators set sv_pure 0, there is absolutely no reason to remove the current system. Just talk to server operators and get them to set sv_pure to 0.

[David]

In this case we are talking about client-side only minimods, like an updated font or a speed-meter in my HUD.

I've been using TTF fonts for the last week or so, they look nice.  Work with pure too.
And is there any use for a speed-meter?  And if there is, it would probably be back to the "not on my server".

[Amanieu]

I've been using TTF fonts for the last week or so, they look nice.  Work with pure too.

The only reason it works with pure is that the client modifies the pure check code to allow ttf fonts to bypass the check.

[David]

ttf files are treated the same way as cfg files etc. aka harmless.

I'll say it again: David does not host any servers, in fact, the servers belonging to his guild are mostly empty.
Therefore, wether David agrees with you about sv_pure or not, it won't change one iota about the fact that you need to contact server operators in order to get them to disable sv_pure. Even if David wanted to open up the gates of haxhell for you, he couldn't, since he cannot control the actions of other server operators, no matter how much he would like to.

The only reason I still read this thread is because I am awaiting a reply to http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=9116.msg140674#msg140674 which seems to have been ignored by everyone.

(Also, in case anyone cares, I'm *still* not sure what Amanieu and googles' positions are server-choice.  A clarification would be nice, lots of contradictory statements going on.)

[Syntac]

It doesn't really matter whether sv_pure should be implemented or not. If someone really wants to bypass it, they can do so. As the TremFusion client demonstrates, it's not that hard.

Anything involving security should not be at the player's end. But in this case, that's the only way it'll work. In a closed-source game, maybe, but when everyone can see the code, client-side cheat prevention is a no-go.