Author Topic: How To Actually Keep Tremulous Alive  (Read 128169 times)

Dracone

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Re: How To Actually Keep Tremulous Alive
« Reply #120 on: December 18, 2010, 07:57:42 pm »
I'm going to once again change my opinion of what happened. But everything's opinion really to begin with. You can't give a definite reason. People leave and don't tell anyone and that's that.

Anyways, the skilled players from all scenes up and left because they either became busy with life, bored with the game in general, or bored with the fact that scrims became shit (at least in North America) due to clans crouching (annoying stupid bullshit), clans camping MORE THAN EVER, and the continuation of fucking retards being an hour late to start a scrim. Lack of a new version is tied into this I suppose, unless a QVM fix could've fixed the no headshot crouch thing.

With the exit of good players for any reason came smaller clans. A certain number of players MUST be present for a scrim to be balanced, or aliens get the advantage on paper. 4v4s became rare, which just meant one side getting dominated. Also, public game balance, which used to be awesome because you'd see many pros vs. many pros, was disrupted. All new players no longer had chances to get a team that wasn't stupid, so they got raped. They either quit or looked for new servers, inevitably ending up in X or KoRx some other place where there is no skill or even a chance for a clan scene, and it's just a whole bunch of fucktards who don't know how to admin, though AA did have abuse. Doesn't matter, part of my reasoning includes the game falling off a cliff because of clans like AA, even if they were actually skilled.

And finally, the clan scene was completely split through continents, NOT really because of timezones, but because the majority of the other continents couldn't stop filling Olympic swimming pools with tears over unlagged and how much they didn't like it. Fucking stupid really, you can't have fair intercontinental scrims without something to keep away most of the disadvantages brought on by high ping lagged.

Anyways, that's just me.
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KamikOzzy

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Re: How To Actually Keep Tremulous Alive
« Reply #121 on: December 19, 2010, 05:47:44 am »
It's true, a lot of what Dracone said. Pub matches ended up being 1v1s + new players joining in and padding credits by the time I left. Some left due to boredom or the qvms or scrims and such, but I think the vast majority of us just realized we couldn't be 21 years old and still spend six hours a day playing video games. My personal opinion still stands that GPP's release thinned an already too-thin herd, but at least some people seem to be enjoying it. Tremulous was special to me and a lot of others. I think for Tremulous to survive there needs to be an official release of a better (1.2?) Tremulous, and just hope that the new generation of players loves it as much as we did. We've had our turn, and everyone who didn't play has missed out. For me, now, the game could be improved with the best updates any game has seen, and I still couldn't find time to play. Great game this was, and I hope a newer generation of players gets to share the same feelings that we did. Remember when our palms could sweat during an intense match? Maybe times were different, or maybe we just grew out of it. I still love the people I played with when we played, and whether the game sees a revival or not, it was worth MY time. I hope it's worth everyone else's. <3s
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Blade

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Re: How To Actually Keep Tremulous Alive
« Reply #122 on: December 22, 2010, 08:00:29 pm »
I feel like something of a pretender or charlatan to put my petty name here to complete this triforce. But I happened to have some thoughts and I feel that insight never hurts.

Tremulous is a unique kind of game. It's advertised as such because it blends RTS elements with FPS. However, it shares the uninspired type of dev cycle that FPS games get. Freeware shooters like nexuiz or ut4 are open-ended in that there are lots of maps, weapons, powerups, and various gametypes such that the game is never exhausted. You can DM with friends or something and then when you notice that you have enough people in the server, switch to CTF and go another six hours. You never play one single thing long enough to "solve" it, so the gameplay is fresh for a long time.

Thus to release a game like that, you basically release it and then leave it alone. When bugs crop up, you fix them, but you've provided the essentials (maps, weapons, gametypes) to form a community of fragging.

In Tremulous, we largely stagnated to ATCS. Remember, in Tremulous there is only one gametype. Team elimination, if you will. Here we already have one fewer factor in gameplay freshness than a regular FPS. Therefore the community will get bored that much faster.

The community had its own problem of tending to cut down the maps to just ATCS. I still don't know what the exact reason is. ATCS may be easier on the eyes because it's so bland, or easy to understand and start playing, or just fastest to load on Polish computers. This would further reduce boredom on top of only having one gametype.

Actually, that's not true; I think I do know the reason. We tended to perceive ATCS as the most balanced arena. Places like the Lair were what, 60/40? 55/45? The fact that ATCS was grinded so much more than other maps made us more sure about its balance. However, map balance itself is a non-entity. Layout balance is the big thing. Default Transit layout games would result in either 1 minute games or <servertimelimit> games.

Also on the point of balance, largely servers played the same game, but certain things like SST's (contain your laughter and bear with me) higher BPs or lagged/unlagged, these things affect balance. It *would* affect balance to play nonstandard layouts. You can change the whole face of a map just by switching bases around. Well, except for ATCS or other symmetrical examples.

About balance in general:
For an infinitesimal timing, S1 H > S1 A until a heavy alien arrives. Then ofc S1 A > S1 H. S2 means more to humans than it does to aliens, because the powerhouse that is the goon is the same. So the goon loses parity against now-helmeted humans. In general S3 A vs S3 H is fucked, and should be congratulated as a point in the game that resembles a conventional shooter in that it's just a party. However, on a map like ATCS, range and AOE of humans will tend to overtake aliens, whose huge size (as a function of their power) in areas of low maneuverability has hampered their mobility even more. This brings me to the main difference in the way H and A play the game.

Because the S2 human has great economy against the goon powerhouse (a human being 310 credits, under two dretch kills' worth, and 310/2000 being a possible 15.5% of bank; and a goon being 3 evos, 3 naked kills' worth, and 3/9 being a possible 33.3% of bank, these are not proportionate), a key human strategy will be to work as a boa constrictor against the aliens. Every dretch feed valuable as it provides real funds to bring down goons. Every goon kill furthering the tilt of the alien star players. By sheer attrition the humans seek to withstand the aliens' aggressive charges until they can walk into the alien base being assailed by nothing but a web of obnoxious spiders and some green roach spitting while typing asldkfjalskdfjalskjfdla;skdjf. This is the only way to play a protracted game as humans. There are other ways to play, but they involve short games based on lucky psaw routes to eggs and lack of grangers. Also, if you can just kill your enemy with rifles before they can goon (in 1 minute), that's a way. But it isn't a full game.

Because the aliens lose aggressive windows as time goes on, they would prefer to smash the humans in a blitz campaign. Thus if you use unrestrained aggression successfully from the beginning and out-tech the humans, they don't have their chance to beat you in a game of prophylaxis because you simply presented too many threats and they succumb. If on the other hand you're dying more often than killing, you turn to desperation windows of base backstabs and lucky flanks/accumulated gangrapes. This is bad because your human opponents are playing a game where they minimize their mistakes and capitalize on each of yours. Even if you make no mistakes, they're trying to minimize theirs so that they can let the natural human balance give them a marginal advantage for victory. But if your early aggression didn't really snowball, you have to rely on the humans fucking up.

The last timing for S3 aliens is when they're fighting S3 humans and have banked up enough evos for that one storm attack. That's a really bad place to be in. In a public game, it's different because the balance of larger team sizes combined with the idiocy of public human players means that S3 aliens have actually lots of food in the form of naked lucifer cannons and chainsuit rifles. But in a real match, that aggression has to pay off so that by the time SD comes, humans are just barely still S2 or something and you can wither their base with hard work and lots of screaming goon around the corner sniping action.

It may be possible to infuse RTS elements into other gametypes and still call the game Tremulous. In other words, perhaps not as far as the instagib human only server, but what about that Domination server and the coop vs AI mods? These things can all liven gameplay.

Crouching sucked a little bit, but it's just the humans final way of maximizing their effectiveness in a safe, stranglehold victory. This is because the S1 window is the first, but also the biggest, opportunity for alien aggression. Balancing the game, balance changes, balance mods, none of it's necessary. More maps and layouts only. The old SST market for supersize games needs supersize maps. New gametypes need maps designed just for them. Layouts need to incorporate lessons of the game's history. The fact that the teams play differently isn't a complaint, but it means that it has to be handled differently than a homogenous FPS where everyone runs the same speed and can use the same infinite bag of weapons.

As far as I remember.

Meisseli

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Re: How To Actually Keep Tremulous Alive
« Reply #123 on: December 22, 2010, 08:51:03 pm »
Lol at players who quit making three-page emotional analyses about why they quit.
blah
As to this, get on with the times. 1.2 GPP has fixed these issues a long time ago.

Qrntz

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Re: How To Actually Keep Tremulous Alive
« Reply #124 on: December 22, 2010, 09:17:17 pm »
Lol at players who quit making three-page emotional analyses about why they quit.
blah
As to this, get on with the times. 1.2 GPP has fixed these issues a long time ago.
Sig? :P

You make up Qrntz, u always angry, just calmdown. :police:
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Tremulant

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Re: How To Actually Keep Tremulous Alive
« Reply #125 on: December 22, 2010, 10:30:18 pm »
Wow, where on earth has this tl;dr emofest of a thread been hiding for so long, it's epic, load times on polish computers as an explanation for the popularity of ATCS is a particular highlight.
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jm82792

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Re: How To Actually Keep Tremulous Alive
« Reply #126 on: December 23, 2010, 07:57:11 am »
Porting trem to a new game engine would ip it's appeal to people who do not directly pay attention to gameplay until they get "addicted". Yes I know the logistics but we have the gameplay down and it could continue to evolve gameplay afterward.

lucifer666s8n

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Re: How To Actually Keep Tremulous Alive
« Reply #127 on: December 24, 2010, 02:45:39 pm »
Quote
Meh, it's a damn mod, man. 1.2 is for *real* gaming experience.

That doesnt make any sense.  A "real" gaming experience?  People play a game to have fun, and most people dont give 2 shits about the purist mentality you have.  Not everyone wants to play the same uniform flavor of tremulous for 10 years.  Take a glance at the server popularity stats, for instance.. it tells a different story than you are.
And how much of that is due to gaming the system of the default listings in 1.1 hmm?

Thats a load of crap and you know it.  If the server list had ANYTHING to do with popularity.. the first 5 or 6 servers (that are vanilla btw) wouldnt be perpetually empty, more people would play AA/w/t/BB etc, and hardly anyone would play X (because X isnt even on the first page of the default server list and hasnt been for almost a year) 

The best indicator of whether or not a server will get new players is whether or not it has low latency and has players already on it (the more the better)  Popularity is self-perpetuating, and as long as the gameplay is balanced, entertaining, and is well moderated new players will return for more.  THOSE are statistically accurate reasons why modded servers have more players on the average than vanilla servers.  Not the server list.   ::)

In fact, im sure that if tremulous never had any mods it would already be dead.  Mods are a natural evolution coming from the creativity of a dedicated playerbase and is a testament of the longevity of the gameplay concept itself.  They have done a LOT for this community by way of attracting and retaining players who would otherwise have left.  Its too bad there is this North VS South mentality.
The purist mentality of never changing game play is what has been the death cry of almost ALL Open source or modded games. When new players come along and say, Hmm, I think I will try Tremulous, they usually try out more than one server... Despite what the Purists here think that they will Automatically go to X (amazing how nobody Bitches about A Server and it almost vanilli trem... that would confuse most of the Trolls here) the majority of Noobs go to many servers in the beginning. This is where YOUR attitudes as purists is the death of trem. You find out someone is from X, has played X, or doesnt want to murder the XserverX group staff and decide they are public enemy #1 on the Troll Boards and in-game.

The Mod scene will be what keeps Tremulous Alive. The only reason purists bitch so much is that THE modded serves have done more than the devs will. This is in part to the Devs trying to make the game as stock and purist oriented as possible. Good luck with that.... GPP is the end of Trem, and the pruists are to blame. Not populated servers that actually do something in the community.

FYI - XserverX had a perfectly Vanilla trem Server for a while... It was closed because NO ONE wanted to play there. Unlike the usual laggy 'Official' servers and elitest punk filled others, we staffed it with good guys (we have some vanilla lovers in our group... But dont even LISTEN to me....) and guess what... NO ONE ever really played... So this fantasy of 'Vanilla Tremulous FTW!! Hurr Hurr Huurrr!!' is just that a fantasy of a bunch of aging gamers wanting to keep the nostalgia of Trem. When I have seen people come on one of our servers and having fun and staying in the community, I know that the goal is simple. Attract NEW players. Not keep the Old School Grumps happy... As they will only be happy with a stock 1.1 clone and that is what is killing trem... No changes. Well, not anywhere but in the populated servers.

The only players that X is "attracting" and "retaining" are player that play X, not Tremulous.  Many newbies come and play X as apposed to Tremulous which actually lessens the Tremulous playerbase.  So in fact, X is helping to kill Tremulous.  My guess to why this happens is that X has a very low learning curve when compared to Tremulous, either from the mods or the playerbase that X has.

Mods are a natural evolution coming from the creativity of a dedicated playerbase and is a testament of the longevity of the gameplay concept itself.

If the "gamplay concept" is Tremulous, making a mod that completely changes Tremulous gameplay is not a testament to helping Tremulous live longer.  If the "gameplay concept" is the mod, then people who play mods do make mods.

Now I don't mean to rip on you, but when you say you're mod has saved Tremulous, I have to disagree.

This in and of itself makes no sense Kiwi... From what the general definition of an open source game is, its a game developed, maintained and taken care of by the community. This is in fact what Tremulous IS. You can try and categorize Tremulous into its vanilla bland and boring box, but the fact is, these games HAVE to constantly evolve, as they are easily out paced by games that are developed and ran with better engines, better graphics, etc... This is NATURAL evolution of FPS games and computer games in general. If you see someone who has the coice of playing Civilization vs Civilization V... Well, you know what will happen... People go for the newest and best thing. Tremulous is a ghost on the intarwebz nowadays and the lack of change is the cause. The change happens on the Modded servers (As seen in server rankings) but as they are shunned by the elites who grasp the title of Official Trem whatever, the game is being ignored by the FPS community at large. When one has to look up software from 3 years ago to play the game it is a little dumb.

A good example of a good thing that was abandoned due to the lack of support from the Officials was Tremfusion. Tremfusion was a much needed upgrade to the MS-DOS (Ok now I feel old, as all the kids on this forum are googling MS-DOS) style client that was stock Trem. People in the elites ranks HATED Tremfusion almost as much as XserverX. This led to the project starting to fade into nothing and now the Dev team there is working on a new game... Sorry guys but the world is passing us by and you guys are too busy screaming over balance changes and modded servers... Oblivious to the doom comming up on Trem.

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prent

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Re: How To Actually Keep Tremulous Alive
« Reply #128 on: December 24, 2010, 03:26:32 pm »
TL;DR Thread :D
Tremulous will stay alive no matter what
(at least I can guarantee that it will keep breathing)

lucifer666s8n

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Re: How To Actually Keep Tremulous Alive
« Reply #129 on: December 24, 2010, 03:53:47 pm »
And no offense, but the reason we have these problems in the community is people say this:
Quote from: prent
TL;DR Thread


That crap is not gonna keep trem alive at all... Spam.... Pitiful in a meaningful topic.

KamikOzzy

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Re: How To Actually Keep Tremulous Alive
« Reply #130 on: December 24, 2010, 08:12:03 pm »
just that a fantasy of a bunch of aging gamers wanting to keep the nostalgia of Trem.

Caught me. Not a bad post lucifer. I'm a purist myself, but I like your spirit. You mean well and you care about the game. I wish you the best.
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LuckyCharms

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Re: How To Actually Keep Tremulous Alive
« Reply #131 on: December 24, 2010, 10:53:57 pm »
So, I read through these 5 pages so I don't come into this Topic completely ignorant...and I found myself laughing a lot.

The point of this thread was to figure out how to better Trem and keep it alive[Correct me if I'm wrong KamikOzzy], but all that's getting done is flaming the servers that do get popularity and keep/gain players.

If you're wondering how to better the new players so they tell they're friends and so on and so forth: look in the mirror [or reflection of your monitor hehe]. Mudslinging popular places since they don't "teach nooby players enough" gets us nowhere. If you think you can do a better job, then do it. Quit sitting there pointing the finger only because they have more players.

What I've seen from KoRx: Close clan, Close players, and people always willing to lend a hand to those new to the server.
What I've seen from X: LOTS of trolls with Admins taking their honest time to tend to the server so you get the best experience possible. I have seen Admins give their utmost help to noobs [and I myself have helped plenty] and handle situations should they arise.
What I've seen from AA: Decently fun server, but I lag so it kinda takes away from gameplay...fun nonetheless. The Admins ban/abuse anyone that "pisses them off" and are utterly horrid at spotting hacks [my observation]. Thrice have I actually spotted hackers for them and they don't pay attention and instead ban good players for "hacks." Quite funny to be honest.
What I've seen from ACR: A decently close clan that is pretty good with players and very informative, from what I've seen.

Now obviously there are A LOT more places that have come and gone, places that I didn't mention, but these are the main behemoths IMO.


So, I'd like to point out a server named "W" for a moment. If you have played there, you will see it is heavily modded. Nearly all the players lack a GUID or know how to rename themselves. So, why do they stay that way? Well, most of the Admins there weren't fully taught either. Are they to blame? No. They should have learned from us, so they may better the current noobs.


The Elitist players here love pointing the finger and yelling at nublets, but aren't you being a bit contradictive? You wish them to play better; yet, won't do anything about it....Which is why they stay that way. Now, I'm not saying you have an obligation to teach them, but more of a request to.

I was brought onto Trem via clan and was taught by a clan on a vanilla server. I have moved around since then and found a home on the X+A servers. Before X+A, I was roaming around KoRx, AA, clan servers, etc etc. The thing that sets apart Xservers, is that it has an Admin Staff that....wait for it.....wait for it...........WAIT FOR IT......Cares. Yup, you heard me. Our Admins are trained via older Admins and so on and so forth. Your complaints of us not training them, are not that we don't train them, it's that we don't train them for YOUR gameplay.


In essence, What will keep Trem alive? You. Now quit your bitching and do something for Tremulous.


P.S I like traveling around the servers MD whoring and whatnot; thus showing that even though I'm brought off modded servers I can still whip some fanny.


Your sexy country boy,
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« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 03:41:11 am by LuckyCharms »
By the time 1.2 is finished, time travel will be normal, so why don't the future devs just travel back and release 1.2 early?  ???
volt your site fucking suck i cant even register it says check your cookie wtf i eat cookies i dont check them

DraZiLoX

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Re: How To Actually Keep Tremulous Alive
« Reply #132 on: December 28, 2010, 11:33:40 am »
But why, why in earth can't we keep basic gameplay. Blaster wasn't ment to be super powerful killing weapon, it was ment to be bad backup weapon if you run out of bullets or didn't want to use them.

Dracone

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Re: How To Actually Keep Tremulous Alive
« Reply #133 on: December 28, 2010, 08:55:44 pm »
Picking out the benefits of the unique characteristics of various servers does nothing and means nothing. Not only are you wrong on a lot of that (X server admins are fucking stupid for example), but when Tremulous was legit "alive," it was a great community because people could go to various places and play pretty much the same game, so unity across servers was strong.

Overall, what is desired is at least one big living unified community in the game, not a whole bunch of mod separated ones with no potential alone. That's not a living game, that's just stupid.
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LuckyCharms

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Re: How To Actually Keep Tremulous Alive
« Reply #134 on: January 09, 2011, 05:49:43 am »
But why, why in earth can't we keep basic gameplay.
Why must everyone conform to all of your "utopian" gameplay?
Blaster wasn't ment to be super powerful killing weapon, it was ment to be bad backup weapon if you run out of bullets or didn't want to use them.
And one might argue that BP wasn't meant/supposed to be unlimited, yet [W]onderland did that, uBP did that.

Picking out the benefits of the unique characteristics of various servers does nothing and means nothing.
And picking out YOUR ideas of their cons does?

(X server admins are fucking stupid for example)
And AA admins are? "Bad Building" is totally a legit reason for a Perma ban....Be more hypocritical why don't ya. "Xservers keeps nooby players nubs"...Since you ban them they come directly to us LOL.

it was a great community because people could go to various places and play pretty much the same game, so unity across servers was strong.

Overall, what is desired is at least one big living unified community in the game, not a whole bunch of mod separated ones with no potential alone. That's not a living game, that's just stupid.
It's not unified because people like you don't respect other people's ideas nor tastes. No potential alone? AA does fine, X+A does fine, W+Z does fine, Aussie Assault does fine, uBP does fine. All different styles of gameplay. So, in a nutshell....you're saying that unless people conform to your Vanilla Ice Cream, rather than try Cookie Dough or even Mango, they're wrong for providing a different type of experience for a different type of palate?

You can't blame a game's loss of popularity on servers, Trem is just getting old and more upon more games are stepping in front of it.


And look, arguing and mud-slinging is totally getting us somewhere. [/sarcasm]

P.S @Drazi: I used [W]onderland an example, I honestly have no bad opinion of [W]onderland nor yourself.


« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 05:52:05 am by LuckyCharms »
By the time 1.2 is finished, time travel will be normal, so why don't the future devs just travel back and release 1.2 early?  ???
volt your site fucking suck i cant even register it says check your cookie wtf i eat cookies i dont check them

ULTRA Random ViruS

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Re: How To Actually Keep Tremulous Alive
« Reply #135 on: March 24, 2011, 01:48:37 pm »
soo many posts; tldr.
Anyways i've contributed my part to trem: i 'advertise it' to people at school. already convinced like 6 people and 3 from primary school but some of them said 'too hard'

TimeMan

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Re: How To Actually Keep Tremulous Alive
« Reply #136 on: August 20, 2011, 02:37:16 pm »
The computer club at my school held a gaming tournament and I convinced them to use Tremulous as the game.  We actually brought in money buy charging for admissions.

This was done by showing a promotional video made by the (eVo) clan in the class meetings.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czfDEb9XfMs

The video above has some awesome footage and quality that even players of the newest paid fps game thought was cool.

I know you guys are trying to promote 1.2 but I am just saying this is what I did for 1.1.



Qrntz

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Re: How To Actually Keep Tremulous Alive
« Reply #137 on: August 20, 2011, 03:43:54 pm »
The computer club at my school held a gaming tournament
I am jealous to the extremes. Honestly. :'(

You make up Qrntz, u always angry, just calmdown. :police:
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TimeMan

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Re: How To Actually Keep Tremulous Alive
« Reply #138 on: August 20, 2011, 06:40:08 pm »
Yea, it was loads of fun even though they didn't allow me to play haha

ULTRA Random ViruS

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Re: How To Actually Keep Tremulous Alive
« Reply #139 on: September 28, 2011, 10:50:13 am »
for the first time when reading a long paragraph: NOT - tl;dr!

I'd agree with the guy who wrote that long paragraph (forgot name, and my internet browser won't let me scroll down due to it glitching)

OhaiReapd

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Re: How To Actually Keep Tremulous Alive
« Reply #140 on: September 29, 2011, 03:50:44 am »
Porting trem to a new game engine would ip it's appeal to people who do not directly pay attention to gameplay until they get "addicted". Yes I know the logistics but we have the gameplay down and it could continue to evolve gameplay afterward.

Wrong. It's been attempted several times, but because it is such a lengthy process, many projects just die out before it is finished.