Tremulous Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Evoc on February 15, 2009, 08:52:28 pm
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Whenever I mention to people that I like servers with unlimited build points, I usually get one of two responses from one of two types of people: a "yeah so do I" response from people on unlimited build point servers or a "wow what a noob" response from everyone else.
Of course, people who go on unlimited build point servers on a regular basis are most likely going to be fond of them. But the people who don't like them list such reasons as "laggy - pointless buildings - no fighting - camping behind buildings." Another person cited the fact that "trem isn't starcraft" and that "there's a limit on resources for buildables for a reason." Basically, people don't like them because of the massive amount of lag and camping.
I can't disagree with the fact that there's huge lag on most unlimited build point servers once a certain threshold has been crossed; just today I was playing Niveus on one such server and everyone began to 999. But, most of the time, the lag is bearable and it doesn't affect gameplay that much.
I also can't disagree with the fact that there is camping. But, the fundamental issue with this argument is that, most of the time, only newbies camp; from firsthand experience, I can say that all of the regulars to unlimited build point servers don't camp as much as the newbies do. Sure, there will always be campers, as there will always be newbies and a few players who just refuse to go out and fight, but most of the players keep their camping to a minimum.
As a friend once put it, unlimited build point servers provide for "fortress-style" game play. This is a fun style of gameplay to some people, and this is basically why I like unlimited build point servers so much. For one, people (especially on humans) have a whole lot of fun making complex and a well-defended bases; normal, "limited build point" servers don't have this aspect of gameplay as the number of base possibilities are very small. Secondly, it's as much fun to actually destroy the massive bases as it is to make them. Coordinating attack maneuvers on bases and defense maneuvers to counter to attack ones is - once again, from experience - a whole lot of fun.
Everyone has their personal preference to what kind of server they like, and for me, that preference is for unlimited build point servers (just like my personal-favorite, the aptly named Unlimited BP server (http://unlimitedbp.com/)). People can like normal servers with limited build points, or people can like TremX servers, or people like servers with the Ambush mod, but, once again, everyone has their preferences. I hope that with this short article I've been able to show you why I really do like unlimited build point servers.
-Evoc
TL;DR VERSION: Unlimited build point servers are sometimes laggy and have a decent amount of campers, but the "fortress-style" gameplay that they have is a whole lot of fun.
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My primary reason for not liking unlimited buildpoints is that it shifts the focus from player vs player combat to player vs buildable combat which involves a whole lot less aiming and dodging.
I like aiming and dodging!
I find that the most fun part of unlimited buildpoint servers is the part before everyone builds.
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My primary reason for not liking unlimited buildpoints is that it shifts the focus from player vs player combat to player vs buildable combat which involves a whole lot less aiming and dodging.
I like aiming and dodging!
I find that the most fun part of unlimited buildpoint servers is the part before everyone builds.
And, as I said, everyone has their preferences. I just don't want people to stereotype players who play on unlimited build point servers to be noobish.
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What makes Trem special is the mix between an RTS and an FPS. Some people are more interested in one side of it, some are more interested in the other.
I myself enjoy both RTSs and FPSs, which may be the reason why sometimes I'm in the mood for unlimited BP and sometimes I'm not. Either way, I have nothing against people who like playing unlimited BP. Liking a different sort of gameplay doesn't make you noobish, in my humble opinion.
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Same reason why people like 1 hit kill games in halo 3 with unlimited ammo and fast zombies.
Its fun, and its simple.
Same reason people masturbate.
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I play on unlimited BP servers when I get bored of the usual game and when I get bored of that I play regular Tremulous again.
Call it the cycle of doom, live by it, love it.
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I play on unlimited servers only when I am feeling lazy. Can I get an amen? Seriously, I don't like to play on them very much. They elicit a "cheater" type of vibe whenever I play on it. Actually, more like "loser". The main reason is that, everything is so easy. Where's the fun or challenge in spamming the place with structures? Like I said, I play when I am lazy. Too lazy to fight off whoever. too lazy to finish the senten
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Perhaps people who are against unlimited BP don't appreciate the strategy involved? =S Because it definitely exists.
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I guess the strategy is "KILLWHORE" which is understandable for noobs, seeing as they can simply their goal to one thought.
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Look, I'm not trying to fight with you. If you don't like it, that's fine, but you really don't have to insult people who do. I don't even understand how killwhoring is related to unlimited BP.... it's usually the other way around, really.
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Oh, I'm sorry. I just was a little biased. Heh. Please I meant no offense.
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The way I see it on UBP its just spam buildings until SD or you run out of space, and then humans win.
Do aliens ever win on UBP outside of the first two minutes?
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Okey, maybe some people like ubp servers but personally i hate them.
I can't find fun there, whats interesting in laggy campy game? "Fortress-style" ? Ya, really interesting especially for newbies. No offense.
About two years ago everyone was playing on the same servers, i mean the same gameplay style.
Now we have:
Unlagged players
Non-Unlagged, (simply called "lagged, lol)
FunMod like on [X] servers,
Ubp,
Which one is real tremulous?
Maybe it's a bit offtopic, but guys, lets try to play the same game. Better get a real clan and help our community :/
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Would you mind posting a demo of an interesting ubp game?
I'm just curious how such a game would look like...
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The way I see it on UBP its just spam buildings until SD or you run out of space, and then humans win.
Do aliens ever win on UBP outside of the first two minutes?
Actually, you're completely wrong. The Unlimited BP server has a complete alien bias, as shown by these statistics (http://im.forre.st/ubp/) taken by a bot on the server. Now, the bot's not on all the time, so it only has a relatively small number of games. Overall, the aliens have 385 wins, and the humans have 250 wins. If you look at that web page, you can see that the aliens have more wins on atcs (60 - 92), rotcannon_b10 (28 - 60), niveus (26 - 61), nexus6 (32 - 40), utcsb2 (15 - 29), karith (13 - 24), and many others. The only default map that has a human bias is tremor (44 - 29), although there are a few others.
Okey, maybe some people like ubp servers but personally i hate them.
I can't find fun there, whats interesting in laggy campy game? "Fortress-style" ? Ya, really interesting especially for newbies. No offense.
About two years ago everyone was playing on the same servers, i mean the same gameplay style.
Now we have:
Unlagged players
Non-Unlagged, (simply called "lagged, lol)
FunMod like on [X] servers,
Ubp,
Which one is real tremulous?
Maybe it's a bit offtopic, but guys, lets try to play the same game. Better get a real clan and help our community :/
I have to say that although I personally dislike a few servers, I think it's great that we have such variety. Variety is the spice of life. However, I do agree with you on the idea that there needs to be more regular, "classic" Tremulous servers.
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Would you mind posting a demo of an interesting ubp game?
I'm just curious how such a game would look like...
Well, both teams spam turrets/tubes in their base until any enemy entering the base instantly melts his graphics card and then they call it a draw. ;D
Personally I like the fight for map control with multiple outposts on large maps. This isn't possible with 100 BPs, but unlimited BPs without any restrictions just leads to structure spam and games which never end (unless you use some hack like sudden death). I think zone build points is a good compromise.
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Personally I like the fight for map control with multiple outposts on large maps. This isn't possible with 100 BPs, but unlimited BPs without any restrictions just leads to structure spam and games which never end (unless you use some hack like sudden death). I think zone build points is a good compromise.
That's why I like domination mod so much :)
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Personally I think the defaul BP's should be over 200 but under 350.
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I like instant action, I hate the camping aspect. There should only be 50 build points default. ;D
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The only reason Aliens win more on UBP servers is that there are not enough ckits maintaining base and the Overmind manages to maintain its base just well...
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Personally i like #satgnu and will continue to riddicule anything with other settings(1.2 included) *runs*.
Would you mind posting a demo of an interesting ubp game?
I'm just curious how such a game would look like...
QFT
I guess some people also like to play age of empires with 1 hour to build up their economy(aka No Rush)...
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The reason why I don't like UBP-Servers is that it is possible in them to build ultimate bases. An ultimate base is one that kills you before you are able to damage it.
Ultimate bases can be made by humans or aliens in Niveus in the window room, in ATCS aliens can ultimately seal off middle by placing a line of hives above the exits to middle, the instant a human tries to run and luci them, he is dead. Similar bases are possible in other maps, I forgot, I don't play on UBP-Servers, I did for a short time tough.
What I actually enjoyed on UBP is, that it is easier to outsmart the enemy, for me this means: Kill all teenagers ;D However, UBP gets boring after a relatively short time. It quickly brings games to a stalemate, killing all dynamics of the game.
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I often play on high/unlimited BP servers, I prefer 200-400 bps depeding on map size. ~100 bps is just too weak IMO, it's often too easy to snipe/pounce arm/dc/node (without having to kill any turrets) while some/most humans are out of base, or kill whole alien base in 1 rush. It can end too quickly.
Ultimate bases can be made by humans or aliens in Niveus in the window room, in ATCS aliens can ultimately seal off middle by placing a line of hives above the exits to middle, the instant a human tries to run and luci them, he is dead.
Aliens can make almost invulnerable base in Niveus window room, but it can be beaten if humans work together. Any human base there just needs lots of sniping. ATCS: shoot full luci charges at the edge below the hives from a safe distance, splash damage will hit the hives. I have never seen any really unbeatable base.
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UBP = campy games? Why? I think non-UBP is more campy, because you can't leave base otherwise is sniped or rc hopped/om sawed. But UPB mainbase can be empty, because all players are somewhere else, in other small bases with own nodes, arms etc.
And instant kill bases are fun, but aren't unbeatable. Only need different tactics and teamwork.
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When most of the map is your base, it's hard not to camp.
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Wow what a noob.
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UBP = campy games? Why? I think non-UBP is more campy, because you can't leave base otherwise is sniped or rc hopped/om sawed. But UPB mainbase can be empty, because all players are somewhere else, in other small bases with own nodes, arms etc.
And instant kill bases are fun, but aren't unbeatable. Only need different tactics and teamwork.
Maybe if your base didn't suck so goddamn much from all your ubp noobery...
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Archangel: show me that non-UBP great base, which can be leaved by all players without worry.
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Archangel: show me that non-UBP great base, which can be leaved by all players without worry.
Any base will do so long as you don't give them the evos that enable them to attack. This means covering your teammates asses and not selfishly rushing over and over. If you do happen give to them evos to attack with, then just don't leave the base if you're the only one in it.
These are basic teamplay aspects which people seem to completely overlook. Seems to me you're all playing selfishly and only know tremulous as the chaotic feed fest that is your average public server game. I don't have any particular quarrels with people playing the game selfishly. I just don't like to hear people complain about these things when they don't even try playing as a teammate at all.
Teammates aren't just enemies that give you negative points when you kill them.
Now that I've vented, I'll just add that more buildpoints can make things more interesting. Just don't go overboard.
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Sure, without evos you can leave base. But for example when you are human and outside are tyrants and adv goons, you can't leave base even if human progress in atcs tunnel is very good. If you will do it, your base will be smashed with tyrants and sniped by goons in one minute or less. So you must camp.
But with UBP - if you have big fortress, you can leave main base without worry. You not need be camper. And that is reason why aliens can got main base more easilly, because it can be empty for long time. Too much structures, but empty.
That is reason, why I don't undestand why should be UPB server more campy than standard server.
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I can leave base fine. I know it won't be fully destroyed before the first of the attackers return.
Two reasons: A) I know we aren't about to get attacked, because if I'm fighting you I know you aren't in my base, and B) people die. No going to be long for *someone* to die and respawn.
If the entire alien team manages to sneak past us, then yeah, they rape our base. But then they have no defenders either, so we rape them too. So long as my base can last enough to rebuild, do I really care about it?
The base is a tool. So long as it does its job, I really couldn't care if its always falling apart and getting destroyed.
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That's a very good philosophy of gameplay; unfortunately, it's almost exclusively embraced by the aliens and almost never by humans. Maybe it has to do with the fact eggs can act as repeaters right from the start, enabling advanced forward bases and spawn points. Humans can't do this with nodes, and it's a good thing IMO since otherwise they could turret-spam the dretches.
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I can leave base fine. I know it won't be fully destroyed before the first of the attackers return.
Two reasons: A) I know we aren't about to get attacked, because if I'm fighting you I know you aren't in my base, and B) people die. No going to be long for *someone* to die and respawn.
If the entire alien team manages to sneak past us, then yeah, they rape our base. But then they have no defenders either, so we rape them too. So long as my base can last enough to rebuild, do I really care about it?
In many cases 1 mara or goon is enough to kill armory, so no, you won't notice that 1 alien is NOT fighting you and aliens can have defenders. And that can (and against me often will) happen right as human attackers get far enough, I won't wait until you get to my base / meet some rants. After most of the attackers get killed, there will be mostly rifles left and aliens can usually keep attacking much more freely then humans. If there is 1 defender, a good adv goon can usually still snipe/pounce armory.
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If a single alien can destroy anything, then your base sucks.
You have more turrets than buildings to protect. How hard can it be?
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I can leave base fine. I know it won't be fully destroyed before the first of the attackers return.
Two reasons: A) I know we aren't about to get attacked, because if I'm fighting you I know you aren't in my base, and B) people die. No going to be long for *someone* to die and respawn.
If the entire alien team manages to sneak past us, then yeah, they rape our base. But then they have no defenders either, so we rape them too. So long as my base can last enough to rebuild, do I really care about it?
In many cases 1 mara or goon is enough to kill armory, so no, you won't notice that 1 alien is NOT fighting you and aliens can have defenders. And that can (and against me often will) happen right as human attackers get far enough, I won't wait until you get to my base / meet some rants. After most of the attackers get killed, there will be mostly rifles left and aliens can usually keep attacking much more freely then humans. If there is 1 defender, a good adv goon can usually still snipe/pounce armory.
if you're waiting until sudden death to attack, you're doing something wrong.
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Sure, without evos you can leave base. But for example when you are human and outside are tyrants and adv goons, you can't leave base even if human progress in atcs tunnel is very good. If you will do it, your base will be smashed with tyrants and sniped by goons in one minute or less. So you must camp.
But with UBP - if you have big fortress, you can leave main base without worry. You not need be camper. And that is reason why aliens can got main base more easilly, because it can be empty for long time. Too much structures, but empty.
That is reason, why I don't undestand why should be UPB server more campy than standard server.
Uh, sure. Arrange a time, I'll build the base. Unhoppable by any alien. Only thing it relies on is the humans not being retards. (i.e. UBP Builders, X server noobs, New players)
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Archangel: you trying to tell me this?: When you build unhoppable base, then that base can be found empty on crowded server? No. Because humans dying and spawning still in main base. But with UBP they can spawn somewhere else and they can heal and buy weapons in "mini" bases around map.
So on UBP servers are players in many places, in many bases. On standard servers are players in battle or in one base.
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if you're waiting until sudden death to attack, you're doing something wrong.
Ofc this will be a lot more effective in SD, almost a guarantee to win. Before SD it will at least stop humans from keeping up their attack.
Some examples that don't need SD: 2 +goons, both snipe a node and then pounce armory, or snipe 6-8 barbs into RC and then pounce it, or snipe 4+ rets in a row (depending on how close they are to each other, considering explosion splash) and then kill the rest. Harder to do, but will guarantee a win in half a minute. And nothing the humans can do except of leaving a camper or 2, and hope they won't be incompetent. Also I'm not saying all bases are vulnerable to these specific attacks, but many are, and you won't always have only good players in your team. Aliens can even prepare to lose their base by building 2-3 eggs out of base.
The point is that 100 bp bases are vulnerable to 1 small quick attack, you don't need several attacks / whole team.
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My forte is not busy servers, therefore I do not worry about that. I prefer games of say, 4v4, 5v5 or so.
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Aliens can even prepare to lose their base by building 2-3 eggs out of base.
Shouldn't that be "must prepare"? I always try to stash away at least one egg, preferrably two, away from each other. It has saved the hide of the alien team and allowed for a comeback in a few cases.
Of course, it may not be always time to do that. If you have a weak team and your base is under constant attack right from the get go, you may be very busy rebuilding to have time for such finesse.
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Unlimited BP is retarded..
Map-localized BP amount configuration for teh wins.
Domination mod probably would gain more followers if the conquer points were 'hackable terminals'. Seems like a stupid cosmetic change, but the huge domination marker gets in the way when you are trying to aim - and trying to think that this is a Tremulous mod.
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I played on a UBP server for the first time in about two years today after having played almost exclusively on "regular" trem servers. I gave it an entire map rotation to get a complete UBP experience to make sure I wasn't missing anything. I went in with a few questions and got them answered :)
Is there strategy involved?
Like others have said there are times when communication and coordination between teammates is vital. On the server I was playing on, Unlimited BP, sudden death is in 15 minutes. The handful of builders need to establish early on where they are going to build otherwise your going to have a lot of crossover with your building projects and will start deconning each others buildings. There was also strategy not unique to a UBP server, such as base moves and group attacks. There wasn't a ton of strategy involved here, but to be fair I have to put it at least on par with any of the public servers I've been playing on.
How big of a problem is camping?
I didn't find camping to be too big of a problem. Whenever I was on the offensive I always found enemies to attack, whether I was on the alien or human team. I'm not sure if this was unique to my experience because I was apparently playing with many UBP server regulars, but during most of the game I didn't see camping as a problem. During Sudden Death, the team on the losing end obviously would start camping, but their bases weren't impossible to kill, and only on a few occasions did I partake in Extreme Sudden Death. It was during this time that camping happened the most, but that's expected since once your dead during ESD your dead for good. Again, comparing this to the public servers I've been playing on, camping wasn't really that noticeable, wasn't any worse then what I've seen from AA or Dretch Storm.
Is it fun?
Personally, I didn't find it enjoyable enough to rush back to, but now at least I understand why some people play it. I just think a lot of people from UBP servers would find they would enjoy games on regular servers and visa versa.