Tremulous Forum
General => Announcements => Topic started by: Lakitu7 on July 21, 2009, 03:02:06 am
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(http://lakitu.mercenariesguild.net/images/trem-prompt.jpg)
Today the future of mapping and modding in Tremulous is finally secure. The above shot shows what new players with cl_allowDownload=0 will see in Trem 1.2 when they attempt to connect to a server requiring a download. As such, servers running new maps and mods will have the potential to actually be populated, instead of being relegated to obscurity because most players can't figure out what how to obtain them.
Thank you to Risujin and Kevlarman, who are entirely responsible for this.
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Big +1s.
Hopefully now, some good custom maps will really see the light of day.
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;D :D ;)
I love this so much.
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Now if we could improve the menus, it would be perfect. :)
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Wow! That should improve some parts of trem drastically.
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Now if we could improve the menus, it would be perfect. :)
this :P
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Looks awesome however I think that having two options for the player is going to be extremely confusing. As a new player I won't know which option is faster. In fact when is it ever useful to download from the server instead of the website?
I'd suggest removing "download from server" unless it's there for a good reason.
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nice, hopefully now people will actually play custom maps.
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hey isn't that what tremfusion done
2 years ago
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hey isn't that what tremfusion done
2 years ago
tremfusion didn't exist 2 years ago, and this patch predates tremfusion by quite a bit.
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hey isn't that what tremfusion done
2 years ago
^
(also note the sarcasm of 2 years ago, probably only like 6 months to a year)
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Looks awesome however I think that having two options for the player is going to be extremely confusing. As a new player I won't know which option is faster. In fact when is it ever useful to download from the server instead of the website?
I'd suggest removing "download from server" unless it's there for a good reason.
Probably most servers will run sv_allowDownload 5, so UDP download ("from server") won't be an option.
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hey isn't that what tremfusion done
2 years ago
tremfusion didn't exist 2 years ago, and this patch predates tremfusion by quite a bit.
oh so now you're saying as a dev you do actually do the code you're just too lazy to put it to good use?
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The patch quickly became out of date by some refactors of the menu code and that part had to then be mostly redone to match.
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I think it should say about downloading from http being faster on there. (Or just not give a choice, and only use udp if http fails.)
But otherwise awesome :)
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Maybe in paranthesis:
http download (fast)
server download (slow)
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Maybe in paranthesis:
http download (fast)
server download (slow)
If I were a n00b, why would I ever click the slow option? That kinda clinches it right there.
The menu needs great improvement. Right now it looks kinda cheap.
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OK, everyone says it needs to be better.
HOW. "It looks cheap" is hardly useful criticism.
Maybe one of the HUD people who've made menu-system overhauls should get in touch with the devs to give the entire out-of-game UI a face lift.
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If I were a n00b, why would I ever click the slow option?
i've seen noobs that think slow is better.
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If I were a n00b, why would I ever click the slow option?
i've seen noobs that think slow is better.
yes you thats the noob you saw yourself!
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??? i am confused sir
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Probably most servers will run sv_allowDownload 5, so UDP download ("from server") won't be an option.
If the servers are running sv_allowdownload 5 then will the prompt change so that only "Download from website" is available (aka "download from server doesn't appear") and the same when only "server download" is available?
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yes
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UDP is useful if the webhost you're using as a mirror temporarily fails and starts 404ing people, or worse, giving the wrong version out. The version you get directly from the server is pretty much guaranteed to be the right one.
So I an in favour of keeping the option there, but also in favour of emphasising that cURL is crazy fast by comparison.
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I think it should say about downloading from http being faster on there. (Or just not give a choice, and only use udp if http fails.)
But otherwise awesome :)
This is a great idea, but instead of only having one option, have three. One for UDP, one for HTTP, and a 'choose what's best for me'(with those words) option that does what you describe.
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This is a good addition.
However, as the rest of the development features, it needs to be released in an official release to become effective.
That is also true for the development games as they involve a little portion of the Tremulous community which includes players ranging from novice to pro.
Beginners can't join the games because they don't have a decent client with http downloads(and those prompts). In return, development games are less effective.
IMO, It would be better if the developers updated the clients in the downloads section. It doesn't need to contain any major changes.
cURL is crazy fast by comparison.
Now, that is a little bit confusing. But I guess you mean the http downloads(and that is if the server allows fast downloads).
This fact is statistically correct.
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"Website" should probably be changed since it is not necessarily correct.
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Cool. Now please go update downloads with client version supporting it, or at least add a link to just the binary.
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[post removed by author]
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Installer from where?
There's a *lot* more to it than just the link.
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Wow, thanks Lakitu. I've been waiting for this to get in for two years! Better late than never, eh?
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UDP is useful if the webhost you're using as a mirror temporarily fails and starts 404ing people, or worse, giving the wrong version out. The version you get directly from the server is pretty much guaranteed to be the right one.
So I an in favour of keeping the option there, but also in favour of emphasising that cURL is crazy fast by comparison.
Hmm, the text are in the menu code, so there's not any particularly good way to only show (fast) and (slow) after the choices when both are there. Do you folks think it's confusing if you see "Download from server (slow)" or "Download from website (fast)" alone?
"Website" should probably be changed since it is not necessarily correct.
What would you suggest that is reasonably understandable to new players? "redirect" or "curl" or "http" are none of these, I think.
Wow, thanks Lakitu. I've been waiting for this to get in for two years! Better late than never, eh?
I wasn't going to let 1.2 happen without it. I think it's a strong candidate for one of the most important features for the longevity of the community.
<DevHC> where's the "these files may be a security risk. if you do not trust their contents, do not download them" notificaiton?
Probably I should do this too.
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Why is the dev community around Tremulous the only one too paranoid to accept automatic downloads without a big warning sign about its potential badness?
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Why is the dev community around Tremulous the only one too paranoid to accept automatic downloads without a big warning sign about its potential badness?
because it already has been abused.
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Who else read this and thought:
BOXMAPS FER ALL!!!
But, it is a really great advancement, and thank you
(Now as someone was mentioning earlier, about the menus...)
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Who else read this and thought:
BOXMAPS FER ALL!!!
But, it is a really great advancement, and thank you
(Now as someone was mentioning earlier, about the menus...)
It's better than ATCS 24/7.
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Point conceeded, nothing gets me raged quite like neverending monotonous ATCS
Great for 1 or 2 games, but as a small-ish map....
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Hmm, the text are in the menu code, so there's not any particularly good way to only show (fast) and (slow) after the choices when both are there. Do you folks think it's confusing if you see "Download from server (slow)" or "Download from website (fast)" alone?
It's slightly confusing but it's better then not having them.
What would you suggest that is reasonably understandable to new players? "redirect" or "curl" or "http" are none of these, I think.
Website is somewhat misleading unfortunetally. It implies that you have to visit a website to download the maps which isn't the case at all. Having http with fast prominently displayed would be the best option in my opinion.
UDP is useful if the webhost you're using as a mirror temporarily fails and starts 404ing people, or worse, giving the wrong version out. The version you get directly from the server is pretty much guaranteed to be the right one.
So I an in favour of keeping the option there, but also in favour of emphasising that cURL is crazy fast by comparison.
These are fairly advanced user case scenarios in my opinion. Someone who is not computer/Trem literate will not understand why they see a different map/whatever to everyone else when playing due to a mismatch between server and local pk3s. The option can always be moved off the menu and into either a menu option or console command.
Also when you do encounter a 404 (or similiar) error it might be best to automatically fall back to using UDP while displaying a warning either in console or on the screen regarding what's happened.
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From the discussion in #tremulous-dev (not necessarily useful):
Undeference: it is actually not clear at all from that prompt that clicking anything will let you download
kevlarman: it's pretty much the same as all the other buttons in the menus, isn't it?
Undeference: not saying about the buttons not being distinct from anything else, but about it not being clear what exactly they do
Undeference: perhaps "Download from website" sends you to a website where you have to look for the right files to download
DevHC: the user, trying to find out what to do, clicks his head off until either finding the buttons or deciding to press teh ESC
Undeference: maybe something like "The server requires these files: ... Source: <toggle URL/UDP> ... Begin download ... Cancel" would be slightly better or worse or whatever
Khalsa: could do like urt "This server requires you to have file blah.pk3 <br /> Press any key to download from www.blah.com/blah.pk3 or press escape to cancel"
DevHC: OMG
Undeference: of course cl_allowdownload already specifies exactly how you want to download files so the prompt could be really simple like that
It would be nice if there were some agreement about what exactly it should say that 90%+ of people would understand and wouldn't scare off the other 10%. (It would also be nice if the same could be done for a warning about downloading untrusted files.)
Also when you do encounter a 404 (or similiar) error it might be best to automatically fall back to using UDP while displaying a warning either in console or on the screen regarding what's happened.
Also discussed, but I'm not going to quote that whole thing.
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One thing that's kind of off about even just putting (fast) and (slow) is that in a LAN situation, UDP would be preferred.
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One thing that's kind of off about even just putting (fast) and (slow) is that in a LAN situation, UDP would be preferred.
Then don't have a HTTP option in the prompt when joining LAN games.
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And how do we detect if it's lan?
EG at uni you could be on a different subnet, both using non-rfc1918 addresses, but still be on the same lan.
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if it was me i would have 2 links but the links would be
"Download" - like current behavior it'll try http then try server
"Download from Current Server( alternative. can be slow )" - provide downloading only from the server
or even get rid of the download from server option since 99pct of the time you will want to use the http option.
or maybe have a cvar to control where it gets the files like 1 for current behavior 2 http only 3 server only too many options on a menu will only confuse noobs
just my 2c now all we need is tremulous 1.2 to actually come out sometime this century.
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What an excellent idea. I concede that the current implementation of download options available to the client are displayed appropriately and efficiently. However, my agreement with the expressed opinions of those concerned with the sub-par menu system is made apparent by the attached menu system overhaul I proceed to proffer:
(http://i31.tinypic.com/107qkub.jpg)
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Honestly I think a dowload prompt similiar to UrT would solve most of the user interface problems. A cvar can always be used by the more advanced players to decide whether to download via http or game server.
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And how do we detect if it's lan?
EG at uni you could be on a different subnet, both using non-rfc1918 addresses, but still be on the same lan.
dedicated 1 or 0
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Already included in Tremfusion =D
I will use tremfusion for 1.2, too.
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Already included in Tremfusion =D
I will use tremfusion for 1.2, too.
Good for you.
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Already included in Tremfusion =D
I will use tremfusion for 1.2, too.
Good for you.
Indeed, good for him, Mr. Ican'tsayanythingniceever.
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Already included in Tremfusion =D
I will use tremfusion for 1.2, too.
Good for you.
Indeed, good for him, Mr. Ican'tsayanythingniceever.
I think Mr. Neverbenice don't like tremfusion. ^^
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(http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/6441/prompta.png)
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http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/6441/prompta.png
a teamarena menu would be much more helpful than a png.
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http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/6441/prompta.png
Where is the file size >:(
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http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/6441/prompta.png
Where is the file size >:(
impossible to tell before trying to download.
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damn :S
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The server could send the size >.>
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actually the size should be in the header, you can just get that and it will tell you the size.
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Or we al use Tremfusion untill Trem1.2 came out.
And who like Tremfusion will not change it against the Trem 1.2 client. ^^
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Martin, I'm sure the Tremfusion community appreciates your zeal, I don't think the devs are happy at the fact you're trying to direct people away from their hard(?) work.
Anyways, Seeeker's mockup looks pretty good to me, if Tremulous isn't getting a menu makeover.
As for file size, you could force it to be sent from the server, or you could just leave it without; a simple keystroke of "esc" will stop the download if you think it's too large.
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the filesize is already sent..
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Martin, I'm sure the Tremfusion community appreciates your zeal, I don't think the devs are happy at the fact you're trying to direct people away from their hard(?) work.
Tremfusion is only a Client not the full game.
It won't put people away from their hard(?) work. ^^
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excellent work. i think a single download option (http) would be better than two.
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Mockup seems pretty large to me. Will it still work ok for people with resolutions of 640x480?
I'd also remove download manually as it seems rather useless which would make the mockup a bit smaller.
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Mockup seems pretty large to me. Will it still work ok for people with resolutions of 640x480?
I'd also remove download manually as it seems rather useless which would make the mockup a bit smaller.
all ingame menus are scaled to be the same size (relative to the size of the screen).
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Will the text, etc still look ok at 640x480? Some of that text is rather small and at such a low resolution it may need to be disproportionately scaled to be readable.
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i don't see it :( :overmind: :barricade: :barricade: :dragoon: :marauder: :marauder:
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I've noticed that every newbie / most white names always choose to download using UDP whenever they connect to the domination server. If I didn't know that downloading from the server actually means downloading from the server using UDP, and that downloading from a website actually downloads the files automatically using cURL instead of taking me to a website so that I can manually find and download the right files myself, I would always choose download from server. Edit: Many of the people downloading the two packages via UDP gave up downloading because it was too slow.
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I'd say change website to "download" and then have smaller at the bottom "alternate (slow) download" or something for udp.
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I'd say change website to "download" and then have smaller at the bottom "alternate (slow) download" or something for udp.
I agree.
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I say put in parentheses "Recommended" next to website.
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I say put in parentheses "Recommended" next to website.
Recommended does not mean faster, and this wouldn't fix the problem of misleading people to believe that they will need to download files manually.
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I would imagine it would be better to have it say "HTTP (faster)" and "UDP (slower)", and perhaps a bit about why UDP is there in the download prompt's text.
This minimizes confusion about speed, method, and reason.
The word "Website" makes most people think that the game would close, a website would open, and they would download on their own.
HTTP tells you exactly how, and if someone (for some reason) doesn't know what HTTP is, they can just see the (faster) and decide which one they want.
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I would imagine it would be better to have it say "HTTP (faster)" and "UDP (slower)", and perhaps a bit about why UDP is there in the download prompt's text.
This minimizes confusion about speed, method, and reason.
The word "Website" makes most people think that the game would close, a website would open, and they would download on their own.
HTTP tells you exactly how, and if someone (for some reason) doesn't know what HTTP is, they can just see the (faster) and decide which one they want.
Right. I'd go with this. Including the method of downloading is more specific and gives more information to knowledgeable players.
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Yeah Whale's sounds good, and for the explanation, why not just link the words "More Info" to an explanation.
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Today the future of mapping and modding in Tremulous is finally secure. The above shot shows what new players with cl_allowDownload=0 will see in Trem 1.2 when they attempt to connect to a server requiring a download.
That was true for me until 2 days ago (Jan 28), when my client started blowing up. When joining AA, the download dialog would flash onscreen for 30 ms, and then the client would abort, leaving my colormap totally hosed with an extremely high gamma. The only way to fix the colormap is to reboot Windows. I set cl_allowDownload 1 and now I can play on AA again (other servers were not affected), but did a download bug pop up recently?
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This happens to me alot
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Hey sillyrabbit! Fancy meeting you here. As moderator of these forums, I feel I should ask you to perhaps try to add more info to your posts so they don't come across as spam to some.
I know, ironic.