Tremulous Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: khalsa on October 24, 2009, 05:32:23 am
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The years between 1.1 and 1.2 should have been productive years filled with community feedback. We wouldn't have this problem today if that is how it went.
We have had public testing games with calls for community feedback for well over 16 months. That is how it went. Numerous things have changed due to the feedback we got, and do get.
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The years between 1.1 and 1.2 should have been productive years filled with community feedback. We wouldn't have this problem today if that is how it went.
We have had public testing games with calls for community feedback for well over 16 months. That is how it went. Numerous things have changed due to the feedback we got, and do get.
The planned dev games topic has like 3000 views, but I'm sure everyone that goes to the dev games has viewed it many times themselves. Other than that topic, I've never heard a thing about 1.2 testing until I kinda started a shitstorm about it recently.
To cut it short cause I have to go: I think the testing was done primarily by an inside group and a few tagalongs. Some devs, some mods, some whatever. It's the group I always get in trouble for referring to as simply "MG". I personally knew about the dev games, but often when 1.2 is mentioned in game, people respond with "Oh that's actually being worked on?"
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I don't understand how more to make it public? There is several front-page Tremulous.net news posts. There are thousands of mentions in IRC. There is a Global Announcement in EVERY BOARD of this forum. They have been mentioned in tons of threads. Lot's of Bugzilla bugs reference them. They have been mentioned on TremRadio, the few tremulous podcasts. Several individual clan websites.
Just because one individual was unable to see the info in all of the above does not mean it was not disseminated.
Edit: P.S. The actual thread has 49605 views, while the announcement has 3000+
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Meh, i have to second Ozzy to a extent. I have been playing trem for 4 years(or however long 2 months since its release), i heard talk about it when i started playing (or at least when i started being a regular), after that it kinda died and when any reference was made to it the reaction was simply "there isn't going to be a 1.2" or "1.2 is going to take like 5 years" or something around those lines. Im not meaning to insult the devs, i know they have worked a lot on it / have their own life to live, but honestly the only positive news about 1.2 for me has been pretty recent (past 2 weeks maybe). Other than that it was all negative news/indications that its not coming out in the near future so i didn't really care so much about it. So really i have to second Ozzy that the vast majority of the trem players don't know much about 1.2, only what they have heard and that would be that its never coming out. Just my 2 cents.
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The feedback and progress has been public. The problem isn't visibility of 1.2, its 1.2 itself.
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I don't see how it's possible to not have known about the development games if you visit these forums even somewhat regularly (even when I was visiting once a month, I knew about them). What makes this even weirder is that a bunch of people who are complaining now have known about these games, but simply said "1.2 sucks" and nothing more in-game, while refusing to give any constructive feedback/play on the dev servers for more than a few games (I'm not only talking about people who post here).
Honestly, even if the changes aren't ideal...people really want to keep playing 1.1? I mean, really? It's so damn old now, and if you're still discovering new things about 1.1 gameplay after so many years, you probably aren't as great as you think you are. I and a lot of people I know (who are also great 1.1 players) are eager for 1.2.
I BELIEVE IN CHANGE
(The planned dev games topic has almost 50,000 views; obviously a ton of people knew about it)
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i agree bro
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Not all change is good change.
....And it is not 1.1 that I'm bored of. I'm not bored of Tremulous. I've played it for 3-4 years for a reason. What I'm bored of is the same issues that existed way back then never being changed or fixed.
If you are bored; play an a large server, scrim, or play on modded servers...you can make the game fun in a variety of ways.
The core of the public gameplay is lame for a few obvious reasons. The devs are trying to throw a fresh coat of paint on a crumbling house. Change the weapons, nerfing the aliens, throwing gimmicks in the building system aren't solving the problems making Tremulous boring to me.
I absolutely love Tremulous until Stage 3 and have the next 20-30 minutes be the most frustrating or boring experience ever. The Stage 1 and Stage 2 gameplay is pretty much the only reason I still play.
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Equally, not all change is bad change.
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I absolutely love Tremulous until Stage 3 and have the next 20-30 minutes be the most frustrating or boring experience ever. The Stage 1 and Stage 2 gameplay is pretty much the only reason I still play.
Same
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Im not saying that 1.2 sucks, im just saying that the reason why i just put in my idea was because i just thought of it. I just thought of it because i just had been playing on the SVN server. There has only been a SVN server within the past month or less (if i understand correctly). I knew there was progress on 1.2, but it was only available through text really. The dev server is practically always empty and i only play trem to scrim. Its hard to judge/test a game via text so i didn't and i had been waiting for the ability to actually play it then give feedback on it. I guess that's my fault for not taking the time to read all the changes and huge topics.
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Meh, i have to second Ozzy to a extent. I have been playing trem for 4 years(or however long 2 months since its release), i heard talk about it when i started playing (or at least when i started being a regular), after that it kinda died and when any reference was made to it the reaction was simply "there isn't going to be a 1.2" or "1.2 is going to take like 5 years" or something around those lines. Im not meaning to insult the devs, i know they have worked a lot on it / have their own life to live, but honestly the only positive news about 1.2 for me has been pretty recent (past 2 weeks maybe). Other than that it was all negative news/indications that its not coming out in the near future so i didn't really care so much about it. So really i have to second Ozzy that the vast majority of the trem players don't know much about 1.2, only what they have heard and that would be that its never coming out. Just my 2 cents.
You are arguing two completely different topics as one, which while perhaps logical to you, portrays a swerving train of thought to me, and probably anyone who tries to carefully understand what you are saying.
Idea1: I have been playing trem for 4 years(or however long 2 months since its release), i heard talk about it when i started playing (or at least when i started being a regular), after that it kinda died and when any reference was made to it the reaction was simply "there isn't going to be a 1.2" or "1.2 is going to take like 5 years" or something around those lines.
Or to summarize: I heard very little on 1.2 in the past 4 years of playing, so I don't think enough was done to publicize it.
So really i have to second Ozzy that the vast majority of the trem players don't know much about 1.2, only what they have heard and that would be that its never coming out.
(Posted after moving on to idea2) This is pretty simple.
Idea2:Im not meaning to insult the devs, i know they have worked a lot on it / have their own life to live, but honestly the only positive news about 1.2 for me has been pretty recent (past 2 weeks maybe). Other than that it was all negative news/indications that its not coming out in the near future so i didn't really care so much about it.
Or to summarize: I heard that 1.2 wasn't going to be good.
It is also rather ironic that at the end you add "so i didn't really care so much about it." Which seems to imply you didn't bother to learn anything about 1.2, in which case how can you justify claiming that 1.2 wasn't publized enough?
I don't really see how anyone, Ozzy, twofacedrat or anyone can say that nobody knew about it, that topic has 50,000 views, there was announcments everywhere, as Khalsa said, and I saw many people from all places of Tremulous playing on the Dev server. Maybe people don't like 1.2 but if they even made any effort at all to learn about it, (like going all the way to tremulous.net) they would know at least something about it, how to play it, and more.
There has only been a SVN server within the past month or less (if i understand correctly). I knew there was progress on 1.2, but it was only available through text really.
If you mean the 1.2 dev server, let me show you a quote by Khalsa, who should certainly know:
We have had public testing games with calls for community feedback for well over 16 months. That is how it went.
Maybe try reading the replies above you? :-\
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On the alpha release in the planned dev games thread, there is a news option that automatically retrieves an rss feed (I guess) from tremulous.net for any new news posts. This means that once 1.2 is out, no one can complain about not knowing about whatever.
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meh, curse me for not thinking out my post...
Or to summarize: I heard that 1.2 wasn't going to be good.
It is also rather ironic that at the end you add "so i didn't really care so much about it." Which seems to imply you didn't bother to learn anything about 1.2, in which case how can you justify claiming that 1.2 wasn't publized enough?
What i meant was before maybe year ago there was very little talk of 1.2, it was just a myth (as you said moose :P). This in turn means it wasn't in the near future which gave me no real motivation to go research it/try to find a way to test it to be able to gather enough knowledge to give credible/meaningful feedback. Now that i have been hearing about it in the past month/few weeks, i DO have motivation to research it/find a way to test it (which i did via SVN server) i i believe i do have enoug knowledge around it that i can give meaningful feedback. Which is why i am only now giving my suggestions/feedback on the matter.
I don't really see how anyone, Ozzy, twofacedrat or anyone can say that nobody knew about it, that topic has 50,000 views, there was announcments everywhere, as Khalsa said, and I saw many people from all places of Tremulous playing on the Dev server. Maybe people don't like 1.2 but if they even made any effort at all to learn about it, (like going all the way to tremulous.net) they would know at least something about it, how to play it, and more.
I didn't mean to say nobody knew about it, i meant that no one heard really positive news about or that it was going to be released at sometime in the near future. This made the vast majority of Trem's population feel negatively towards it, which didn't give them motivation to go look on the forums and read everything about it. Since society is lazy they would rather to believe Ozzy's word for it in game then to minimize, go to trem.net, find the whole summery of all the changes for 1.2, read ALL of them, decipher if they generally approve or disapprove it, then go back in game and argue with Ozzy. I know there are exceptions but still. However i feel that if you have played tremulous for long enough you are eager for a change even if its for the good or bad.
I don't really know what im trying to achieve right now by arguing, i think i have justified why i put in my feedback when i did soooo..................... yeeahhhh....
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I wasn't really an arguer until very recently. MG servers ran their shit, and it was cool. That's because when asked, any of them will tell you "1.2 is not MG!" so I didn't worry about it. When Norfenstein started posting, I started taking this shit seriously. Before the "1.2 gameplay changes" topic, 1.2 was a myth in the minds of nearly everyone I talked to that wasn't an IRC kinda guy. Hell, we've been banning people "until 1.2 comes out" for a year to poke fun at something we all thought was vaporware.
I'm still not against change. I'm against a ton of change at once being forced into acceptance. Even unlagged came as a cvar for servers, and that split our community in half. I believe in small increments being tested and selected by the general audience, rather than a load of changes dumped all at once.
I could go into the numerous ways I believe the people in charge of 1.2 have tried to "force" acceptance of their mod, but I think I've said enough here, and I would like to retire from this topic unless someone calls me out on something.
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I'm still not against change. I'm against a ton of change at once being forced into acceptance. Even unlagged came as a cvar for servers, and that split our community in half. I believe in small increments being tested and selected by the general audience, rather than a load of changes dumped all at once.
Source control is for those tiny changes; new versions are the big feature dump because most people are too lazy to test current upstream code. Since you are clearly not one of the vast majority of users and you are so vocal, why don't I remember any of your bug reports?
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I'm still not against change. I'm against a ton of change at once being forced into acceptance. Even unlagged came as a cvar for servers, and that split our community in half. I believe in small increments being tested and selected by the general audience, rather than a load of changes dumped all at once.
Source control is for those tiny changes; new versions are the big feature dump because most people are too lazy to test current upstream code. Since you are clearly not one of the vast majority of users and you are so vocal, why don't I remember any of your bug reports?
Point he is making, at least as far as I would interpret it (I could easily be wrong) is that instead of making one enormous gameplay change, as what happens with 1.2, instead, the devs would better release a new version, with major bugfixes and minor changes, and release it as a NEW VERSION. I.e. using the method of frequent updates. (and really, making an auto-updater for trem is not a big deal).
That way you do not have concervative part of your community rebelling, and most of the other players going "huh? wtf, this is a new game". Plus you would get enormous amount of feedback and bugreports from non-dev ran servers. You would have also received the information about most of the community, not just the dev servers and their dedicated playerbase.
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Since you are clearly not one of the vast majority of users and you are so vocal, why don't I remember any of your bug reports?
I'm a player, not a coder, and as I said, I didn't figure anything MG (or even tjw) was doing was "official." I've encountered a number of things "wrong" with trem, but I skip the bullshit of the bug reports and just AIM laki7, since he gets things done and doesn't talk down to me.
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We are making progress and development of the next version of Tremulous continues. Norfenstein is still testing balance changes with the help of the Mercenaries Guild, by playing on the }MG{ Development Server you will help us create the balance statistics we need to gauge individual changes - so play on the server today! Instructions on how to join are here.
I think it's pretty clear that it's testing for "the next version of Tremulous"
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The devs can't release changes piecemeal. Tremulous is an open source game, its a mod, the community is savvy enough to understand the coding. People already don't play vanilla Tremulous on a lot of servers. Small changes will be ignored and people won't want to update their servers or whatever every time a month or whatever. People already debate the hell out of small changes.
It is better for the devs to just release one big patch and call it Tremulous than to release a bunch of little patches that have to be accepted each step along the way.
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The devs can't release changes piecemeal. Tremulous is an open source game, its a mod, the community is savvy enough to understand the coding. People already don't play vanilla Tremulous on a lot of servers. Small changes will be ignored and people won't want to update their servers or whatever every time a month or whatever. People already debate the hell out of small changes.
It is better for the devs to just release one big patch and call it Tremulous than to release a bunch of little patches that have to be accepted each step along the way.
1.2 is not just tremulous.h modifications. Mainly it is http downloads and guids.
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I think it's pretty clear that it's testing for "the next version of Tremulous"
Yeah, and in those days there was some bullshit stage down feature and it sure seemed like nobody was taking it seriously.
@troy yeah, we know. :P Most people are okay with those parts of 1.2, and that's why we don't bring them into play in this topic (gameplay changes focus)
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And stagedowns didn't work, so were dropped. Lots of things were tried and dropped. That's why people were needed on the dev server.
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I think it's pretty clear that it's testing for "the next version of Tremulous"
Yeah, and in those days there was some bullshit stage down feature and it sure seemed like nobody was taking it seriously.
@troy yeah, we know. :P Most people are okay with those parts of 1.2, and that's why we don't bring them into play in this topic (gameplay changes focus)
It was about "small changed will be ignored" reply I got.
@ David. Problem is, needed is one thing, and whether you got them or not is another thing. (just to clarify, I am neither for 1.2 nor against it). The community that was on the dev servers was very biased, and hence at the moment, here, you are getting negative feedback from the "other half" of the community which was confused by
1) mg dev is not 1.2
2) 1.2 will be released on thursday
3) and expectation that 1.2 will be bugfix release, with maybe new models and prettier graphics, but, oh no, of course not gameplay changes, there is nothing to fix there anyway.
I would say that a number of people will agree that the dev time "wasted" on 1.2 gameplay changes could have gone into proper development, such as engine upgrades and renderer upgrades.
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Khalsa, Thursday 19th of June 2008 22:33:42 GMT
Quick Update, and how you can help!
We are making progress and development of the next version of Tremulous continues. Norfenstein is still testing balance changes with the help of the Mercenaries Guild, by playing on the }MG{ Development Server you will help us create the balance statistics we need to gauge individual changes - so play on the server today! Instructions on how to join are here.
Khalsa and Dasprid have started a series of threads asking for input for the communities input on various topics, starting with the new website, so keep your eyes open for more of those and have your opinion heard today! (http://tremulous.net/news/page_2/)
Well over a year ago, and I've seen it talked about in forums and on irc very regularly. Since then there have been numerous forum threads. Name of the server was even changed to Dev Server to clear up misconceptions (Which is that it was for MG only, when it was really hosted by MG but gameplay was changed at Norf's direction). Its in my favorites list so I can play/help if there are people there, is it in yours?
W
T
F
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I can understand people complaining about changes, its natural and all of us do it about one thing or another. But come on, you can't blame lack of information or your own apathy on the devs, or anyone else for that matter. We've all heard the 1.2 comes out just after Duke Nukem Forever jokes, and lets be frank, some of them are quite funny. Meanwhile, existence continues to churn on.
There have been unofficial point releases, they are tjw's client, lakitu7's qvms and tremded, MGs client, and god only knows how many others. Apologies for the many I have undoubtedly missed, but people have been using updated stuff for a long time now. In that respect, a lot of the point release type stuff has been tested extensively, in that they're already in use.
Incidently, others merged their code with/from the MG Dev code base, so playing there wasn't just testing for trem, it was testing the stability of the code for anyone who merged from it. Really, a couple games a week means that you were helping a whole host of people, and I might mention that you're helping by, uh, playing a game! For some of you who play hours every day it seems a minor sacrifice.
And in conclusion :angel:
Go play. Don't bitch or tear apart every minor change, GO PLAY! You think something isn't right? Don't write a paper about it, SHOW IT! GO PLAY! GO PLAY GODDAMNIT GO PLAY
;D
Seriously, how can you complain when you were asked to help by playing a video game? Where else in your life, or anyone else's for that matter, is that gonna happen?
I'm old, and I'll tell you that it won't happen very often. By not that often, I mean its really almost never gonna happen, like this is probably the only time it ever ever happens for you.
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1.2 is not just tremulous.h modifications.
$ git diff --shortstat master --not $(git svn find-rev r1209)
188 files changed, 36711 insertions(+), 4836 deletions(-)
i would hardly call that just tremulous.h modifications.
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1.2 is not just tremulous.h modifications.
$ git diff --shortstat master --not $(git svn find-rev r1209)
188 files changed, 36711 insertions(+), 4836 deletions(-)
i would hardly call that just tremulous.h modifications.
ehh, thats exactly what I said? Since most of the people here talk about the tremulous.h and some GUI changes. and are forgetting about a truckload of bugfixes and the important stuff :)
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1.2 is not just tremulous.h modifications.
$ git diff --shortstat master --not $(git svn find-rev r1209)
188 files changed, 36711 insertions(+), 4836 deletions(-)
i would hardly call that just tremulous.h modifications.
ehh, thats exactly what I said? Since most of the people here talk about the tremulous.h and some GUI changes. and are forgetting about a truckload of bugfixes and the important stuff :)
some asshole named comic book guy irreparably damaged my sarcasm detector :(
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The point people against 1.2 are making is essentially that the next release of Tremulous should have been primarily bugfixes and client enhancements rather than gameplay changes. I think we can all agree that we like and support the vast majority of HUD upgrades, cvars changes, etc. Those changes should have been made years ago and released as some kind of Trem 1.1.1. Now, I think the dev games have been well-publicized on the forums and such, but that's clearly not going to attract the majority of players. Instead, some kind of in-game news feed would have been helpful. I doubt most players who log on at Sat 3:00 PM would immediately think "Dev game time!". An in-game link at the home screen to the dev server would certainly have increased its popularity and thus quality of feedback.
After all, its kinda difficult to judge the success of something without having 10 newbies running around since that's an integral part of public games.
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The dev games could be nice if kevlarman wasn't there to be an asshole at every turn, and if it wasn't 4vs4 ALLL the time. It's just not practical to test in that setting, and I sure wasn't going to do it when word on the street was "vaporware."
@tuple: Heck no the dev server is not in my favorites list. Shoot, your server was all but invisible until someone pointed it out to me. It sits right there with the Tremulous 1.1 Server(s) without any color, who's to be able to find that? Shoulda swallowed your pride and added some fkn boxes to your name. There are lots of games out there that want beta testers, hell even a lot of HUDs for Tremulous want beta testers, but you don't invest your time and effort into that unless you are expecting good results.
@tskuzz, or they could have just not been jerks and I woulda dragged 4-10 guys there every weekend.
@David: I do believe whatever I post you are going to take it upon yourself to tack on a counter-post, and it's going to be hasty and irrelevant. It doesn't matter whether it was dropped or improved or anything; my point was that it wasn't taken seriously by many, including me. The last time I heard of the dev server after the stagedown fiasco was St Anger saying he made the guys nerf mara by owning the shit out of everyone with it.
@ Everyone who's just dying to make a clever reply:
Okay here is ALL I've been trying to say regarding this whole topic, which keeps getting nitpicked:
Well over a year ago, and I've seen it talked about in forums and on irc very regularly.
And as I've said before the people who frequent those places include like twenty players and two hundred forum/irc kinda people, thus constituting "dev community input" or maybe "MG community input" or hell even "forum community input" but that's very different -at least to me - than saying your changes have been tested by a much broader "community input" as many of you are claiming.
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Hey, if someone doesn't want to either read forums/sit on irc/read the front page of trem.net/listen to trem radio or anything to find out that dev games are taken seriously and being played, then wtf is there to do? Newspaper ads? Just sit around and wait for people to show up late and bitch up a storm about how they're not being listened to, or how everything that they could freely have taken part of is off track now that they decide to acknowledge its existence? The dev games were even scheduled for gods sake.
Lots of you people chose not to take part in dev games for various reasons I'm sure. It'll never come out or its all MG or I hate it or I hate them or 4x4s suck or whatever.
Still, you chose not to take part. Forgive me if I'm less inclined to listen to a bitchfest from people who chose not to take part. No offense, believe me I intend none, but perhaps if many of you had shown up it wouldn't be 4x4 (incidently, I saw many many larger games and often games would run for most of the day >.> ) and many of the things you so despise would either be different or understood in its larger context. I don't know, and we never will cause, once again, you weren't there to change it.
Others of you have been there all along. Kudos.
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I think Ozzy overestimates the amount of REALLY unique players per day. It is at most around 1000-2000. Since like in any medium (yes even youtube, otherwise vids with 16 million views would also have 16 million comments), you always only get a very small amount of people to actively do anything or participate in a community. Most people, myself including, usually don't take part in any community. We might have one or two communities we actually do take part in, but most people aren't even that "active".
Also, the amount of players on the dev servers depend on many things. F.e. I had the impression that for quite some time, the euro servers proofed to be more successful. I also get the feeling that more euro players play all in all on the public servers than americans. I think most american players have moved on to new, shinier games.
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Ozzy, wtf are you talking about? The past 10 or so times I've played on the dev servers, the games were larger than 4v4 (I'd say at least 7v7), and they were fucking fun as hell. You don't really have an argument, because you yourself admitted you haven't really played 1.2 (for the same reason you haven't played X). However, 1.2 != X -- I really believe these changes were not made haphazardly (even more so after playing with them more), and the end result is a game that is much more fun to play. I even like the tyrant charge attack now, and I hated it at first.
Second of all, what is it with you and jerks? Everyone is not out to get you. I've found the devs pretty helpful in answering all my lazy questions (ones that could have been answered just by reading stuff online). You really need to get over yourself, and stop being offended so easily.
Third, it's very easy to find the dev servers, even though they don't have boxes. Probably because I'm not a retard.
Fourth, I've heard so many players (IN-GAME) talking about 1.2 dev games since last summer. To say that no one outside of these forums knew about them is ridiculous. Try leaving your server for once (well, not now, since most other servers are dead...but before, when they had good populations/clan matches).
@Tskuzzy Yes and no - I'm not sure balancing a game for newbies would work out, but maybe it could, if the devs were very careful.
P.S. I'm pretty sure St. Anger did that during Zubs, which, iirc, was before the stagedown stuff (August 2008?) -- a long time ago. Being out of the loop != lack of information disseminated. There have been so many posts about it since then, and for a forum junkie like yourself, missing them would have been almost impossible. I smell an excuse.
Anyway, after playing with the changes more, I like a lot of them. I still think the goon's pounce is a *little* overpowered. I'd rather have an overpowered chomp than an overpowered pounce, because chomping takes more skill. I'd also prefer it if humans had more stamina, but that might make them overpowered. I guess that's something best left for the beta release. Btw, dretches are awesome, gj.
Edit: Actually, the tyrant's charge might be a little overpowered now, but I haven't played as a chainsuit yet.
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I guess you are all STILL thinking I mean you did something wrong. I'm saying it's impossible to receive the kind of feedback that you really wanted, not that you should have done X to get it.
/ignore apple
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/ignore logic
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Nah, just /ignore people who like to post just to get me worked up.
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This has nothing to do with you, for the last time. You really think too highly of yourself. I'm somewhat defending 1.2 (which I really hope happens) from your baseless and misinformed attacks (even though they don't really need me to).
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they don't really need me to.
Exactly, but you join in because I am here. Thinking highly of myself has nothing to do with it, but it's pretty obvious when people are implicitly addressing me by using my exact language in their response, or by saying "Ozzy," in their posts.
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I *am* addressing you...because you're the one making the arguments that I find to be untrue (about the clan scene's opinion, dev games, information dissemination, balance changes, X server comparisons, etc). If someone else made an argument I disagreed with, I would address them as well, unless someone addresses them first. The devs can't really argue with you about the clan scene, but I can.
...(saying "Ozzy" in my posts is explicit, not implicit)
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...(saying "Ozzy" in my posts is explicit, not implicit)
No shit, it was meant to be that way.
You can argue with me about the clan scene, but that doesn't make you right, and I play much more than you do, especially lately. If you really want...here goes:
Ozzy, wtf are you talking about? The past 10 or so times I've played on the dev servers, the games were larger than 4v4 (I'd say at least 7v7), and they were fucking fun as hell.
What I'm getting at is that its in a scrim/pickup game style because of the focus of players who attend, rather than the half-team-filled-with-noobs that we will see on an everyday basis. 7v7 isn't any different, unless you're trying to make the game specifically for clan matches, which just don't happen like they used to.
Second of all, what is it with you and jerks? Everyone is not out to get you. I've found the devs pretty helpful in answering all my lazy questions (ones that could have been answered just by reading stuff online). You really need to get over yourself, and stop being offended so easily.
You don't even know what anyone has said to me, because you were not there. I have spoken privately with a few of the people in this thread.
Third, it's very easy to find the dev servers, even though they don't have boxes. Probably because I'm not a retard.
didn't say it was hard to find if you were looking for it, I said it was hard to notice. It was hard for *me* to find beacuse I was looking for MG Development Server. Also, the svn server doesn't even show up on a stock 1.1 client.
Fourth, I've heard so many players (IN-GAME) talking about 1.2 dev games since last summer. To say that no one outside of these forums knew about them is ridiculous. Try leaving your server for once (well, not now, since most other servers are dead...but before, when they had good populations/clan matches).
Again, there are a lot of people who know they exist, fewer who take them seriously, and fewer still who actually attend. If the topic has 50000+ views and everyone's talking about it, and they're taking it seriously: why can you only come up with 14 players on a weekend? I pulled like 50 players out of my ass to have a custom map day by spreading the word around actively.
@Tskuzzy Yes and no - I'm not sure balancing a game for newbies would work out, but maybe it could, if the devs were very careful.
It would be possible, but not probable, since they don't have newbies that attend dev games. Especially not now that they're on SVN.
P.S. I'm pretty sure St. Anger did that during Zubs, which, iirc, was before the stagedown stuff (August 2008?) -- a long time ago. Being out of the loop != lack of information disseminated. There have been so many posts about it since then, and for a forum junkie like yourself, missing them would have been almost impossible. I smell an excuse.
Re-read my shit, I knew they were going on all along. Many others did not, but I did. I was definitely well-informed that they intended to make the next version, and that it was being tested, but I didn't think it was actually going to happen.
It wasn't a /ignore logic but a /ignore useless banter. *you* are the one who thinks too highly of himself.
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meh, played at the 1.2 dev servers. didnt like the changes and quite frankly, didnt bother to voice my opinion because i think either id get flamed by the devs or they simply dont rly care. fact is tremulous sucks and is dying. 1.2 shouldve been released 2 years ago.
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meh, played at the 1.2 dev servers. didnt like the changes and quite frankly, didnt bother to voice my opinion because i think either id get flamed by the devs or they simply dont rly care.
Thats pretty much how i felt about it.
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For those saying there weren't many people, there were ~5k unique GUID's from ~11k IPs on us1 alone.
EDIT: I mean usdev1, not us1.
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fact is tremulous sucks and is dying. 1.2 shouldve been released 2 years ago.
Thats pretty much how i felt about it.
Well then you don't need to have accounts on here whining about it, do you? Go ahead and open your profile, click on "delete this account", and we'll be happy to remove it.
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For those saying there weren't many people, there were ~5k unique GUID's from ~11k IPs on us1 alone.
Over how long?
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Since MG starting running the server, so a long time.
Monthly breakdown:
Year-Month GUID's IP's
07-12: 41 72
08-01: 324 641
08-02: 385 762
08-03: 326 596
08-04: 382 742
08-05: 346 657
08-06: 477 931
08-07: 462 766
08-08: 270 497
08-09: 192 357
09-01: 1011 2024
09-02: 276 445
09-03: 226 402
09-04: 228 259
09-05: 313 320
09-06: 273 399
09-07: 322 534
09-08: 275 473
09-09: 224 382
09-10: 239 429
Note: These figures are probably a bit out around the place, worked out by the date on the logfile, not the dates in the log file. The log scripts have at times been not running for a few days etc, and I wouldn't be surprised if the last day of the month is getting attributed to the following month etc.
EDIT:
Thanks to kevlarman: 2004 guids and 4559 ips on edev, but probably over a much shorter period. Sadly no way to tell how much overlap between the two.
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Ozzy: Is that suppose to be a lot?
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No wonder I missed it; different forum
Anyway,
...(saying "Ozzy" in my posts is explicit, not implicit)
No shit, it was meant to be that way.
Don't blame me for reading what you wrote (incorrect grammar is not my fault)
You can argue with me about the clan scene, but that doesn't make you right, and I play much more than you do, especially lately. If you really want...here goes:
Actually, I'm not so sure you've played more than I have. You certainly idle in your server more than anyone else. I saw you play maybe 3-4 times during all of July-August. Then again, I usually don't play with 200 pingers, so I probably missed you. And you probably missed me. Pointless to argue about.
Besides, playing more does not mean you have a better understanding of the game than anyone else does; playing with the right mindset does.
Ozzy, wtf are you talking about? The past 10 or so times I've played on the dev servers, the games were larger than 4v4 (I'd say at least 7v7), and they were fucking fun as hell.
What I'm getting at is that its in a scrim/pickup game style because of the focus of players who attend, rather than the half-team-filled-with-noobs that we will see on an everyday basis. 7v7 isn't any different, unless you're trying to make the game specifically for clan matches, which just don't happen like they used to.
I'd much rather play a game balanced for relatively small (I don't even think 7v7 is small -- you're too used to 10v10 on ATCS in AA), skilled games rather than huge, filled-with-noobs games. I would consider a game balanced only if it is balanced for the upper levels of gameplay, not the lower ones.
Second of all, what is it with you and jerks? Everyone is not out to get you. I've found the devs pretty helpful in answering all my lazy questions (ones that could have been answered just by reading stuff online). You really need to get over yourself, and stop being offended so easily.
You don't even know what anyone has said to me, because you were not there. I have spoken privately with a few of the people in this thread.
You have a history of taking offense over nothing.
Third, it's very easy to find the dev servers, even though they don't have boxes. Probably because I'm not a retard.
didn't say it was hard to find if you were looking for it, I said it was hard to notice. It was hard for *me* to find beacuse I was looking for MG Development Server. Also, the svn server doesn't even show up on a stock 1.1 client.
Boxes are ugly and allow for limited choice in server name. They also look like bugs. I don't blame them for not wanting to use them (plus, they can't fit the entire name -- what would they use, BOXBOXBOXMG?)
Fourth, I've heard so many players (IN-GAME) talking about 1.2 dev games since last summer. To say that no one outside of these forums knew about them is ridiculous. Try leaving your server for once (well, not now, since most other servers are dead...but before, when they had good populations/clan matches).
Again, there are a lot of people who know they exist, fewer who take them seriously, and fewer still who actually attend. If the topic has 50000+ views and everyone's talking about it, and they're taking it seriously: why can you only come up with 14 players on a weekend? I pulled like 50 players out of my ass to have a custom map day by spreading the word around actively.
Why have so many (not all, I know) of the old, skilled players stopped playing 1.1? Because it's boring and old. Whenever I load tremmaster.quakedev.net, I almost never see anyone online with whom I want to play. I can use the same logic you are using. People don't really take 1.1 seriously (aside from all the vocal dissenters on these forums).
Besides, what's bad about playing with 14 people? That felt like a lot to me. Again, you're probably too used to 10v10s.
@Tskuzzy Yes and no - I'm not sure balancing a game for newbies would work out, but maybe it could, if the devs were very careful.
It would be possible, but not probable, since they don't have newbies that attend dev games. Especially not now that they're on SVN.
I still don't think balancing a game for new players would work. Personally, I'd rather play a challenging game with a good learning curve rather than an easy game in which I start owning after a week.
Re-read my shit, I knew they were going on all along. Many others did not, but I did. I was definitely well-informed that they intended to make the next version, and that it was being tested, but I didn't think it was actually going to happen.
Um, how do you reconcile that statement with this:
The planned dev games topic has like 3000 views, but I'm sure everyone that goes to the dev games has viewed it many times themselves. Other than that topic, I've never heard a thing about 1.2 testing until I kinda started a shitstorm about it recently.
Again, as I said, for a forum junkie like yourself, not hearing a thing about 1.2 testing until now is suspect.
Maybe you should try actually...playing 1.2? I have never seen you play in their server; 1.2 now is not the same as it was 1 year ago. Seriously. Everything feels better (though there are still some things I don't agree with, which I will mention after the beta release [so they hopefully change it])...especially sprint toggling and dodging.
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I think AppleJuice Is most certainly right.
Ozzy, quit yer whining and play the dang game.
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Everything feels better (though there are still some things I don't agree with, which I will mention after the beta release [so they hopefully change it])...especially sprint toggling and dodging.
I'm pretty sure Tremulous is in feature freeze at the moment which makes it doubtful that any game play changes are going to be introduced at this point in time. I definitely wouldn't wait until after beta if I were you to report anything other then bugs.
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Last one of these I'm doing publicly because it amounts to little more than an ego-match that has little to nothing to do with my opinions of the dev cycle and much more to do with personal attacks. If you reply I will PM you a response if you like.
Don't blame me for reading what you wrote (incorrect grammar is not my fault)
No, my grammar was correct for the way I wanted it to sound. The use of "implicit" was to be sarcastic and understated.
Besides, playing more does not mean you have a better understanding of the game than anyone else does; playing with the right mindset does.
There's no way to debate who plays with the right mindset.
I'd much rather play a game balanced for relatively small (I don't even think 7v7 is small -- you're too used to 10v10 on ATCS in AA), skilled games rather than huge, filled-with-noobs games. I would consider a game balanced only if it is balanced for the upper levels of gameplay, not the lower ones.
I'm not speaking of the size of matches which I prefer, I'm speaking of the size of games which I am likely to see. If everyday games are 10vs10, then that's what I'd like the game to be balanced for. I have trouble seeing that changing, although it would be nice.
You have a history of taking offense over nothing.
I don't even know what this is reference to, so meh. I'm aware I over-involve myself sometimes, but you're no different.
Boxes are ugly and allow for limited choice in server name. They also look like bugs. I don't blame them for not wanting to use them (plus, they can't fit the entire name -- what would they use, BOXBOXBOXMG?)
I don't see how this is in response to what I said, but boxes aren't the problem. Maybe add some coloring or simply name it Development Server so it didnt run right in with the default server name. Playing on the SVN servers requires an entirely different client, and none of those servers use any boxes, so this has become entirely irrelevant now.
Why have so many (not all, I know) of the old, skilled players stopped playing 1.1? Because it's boring and old. Whenever I load tremmaster.quakedev.net, I almost never see anyone online with whom I want to play. I can use the same logic you are using. People don't really take 1.1 seriously (aside from all the vocal dissenters on these forums).
Besides, what's bad about playing with 14 people? That felt like a lot to me. Again, you're probably too used to 10v10s.
Nah, you can't use the same logic because it doesn't make any fucking sense in that context. Wearing something out (1.1) and not believing something will happen (1.2) are two separate things. I think there are many reasons old players have quit playing. In fact, the biggest split I ever saw was unlagged, which effectively divided the community in half. Kinda foreshadows for me what's about to come. Sometimes even good change (not implying 1.2 balance changes are good) can suck for the community.
Again, it has nothing to do with my preference but my anticipation of what games will be like. If I could have an eternal 5v5 pickup game I sure would, but it's not going to happen.
I still don't think balancing a game for new players would work. Personally, I'd rather play a challenging game with a good learning curve rather than an easy game in which I start owning after a week.
Funny, I think so too. However, that seems to be the exact opposite of what they're doing by taking the classes that are powerful but tricky to master and putting them into common but different use, like the basilisk.
Re-read my shit, I knew they were going on all along. Many others did not, but I did. I was definitely well-informed that they intended to make the next version, and that it was being tested, but I didn't think it was actually going to happen.
Um, how do you reconcile that statement with this:
The planned dev games topic has like 3000 views, but I'm sure everyone that goes to the dev games has viewed it many times themselves. Other than that topic, I've never heard a thing about 1.2 testing until I kinda started a shitstorm about it recently.
Because in the second one I was talking about hearing it from the players in game, which would demonstrate a general knowledge of 1.2, and in the first I was talking about hearing it for myself on the forums. Interesting how in the second quote you didn't bold OTHER THAN THAT TOPIC which makes it have an entirely different meaning.
Maybe you should try actually...playing 1.2? I have never seen you play in their server; 1.2 now is not the same as it was 1 year ago. Seriously. Everything feels better (though there are still some things I don't agree with, which I will mention after the beta release [so they hopefully change it])...especially sprint toggling and dodging.
Do you even have a client capable of playing on the svn server? You seemed to ignore my earlier mention of it. We did come back to it and play a bit recently (after the 1.2 gameplay changes topic) and realized wowdamn it's for serious and it's sucky. I'm not going to spend more time playing it, because I do not like it at initial feel, I do not feel my input has any value to those in charge, I plan to run a mod that rolls back all the balance changes, and most of all I am against the method of its release. I'm done defending why I don't play 1.2, I've explained it in too many topics and to too many different people. You don't tell someone the only reason they don't like counter strike is because they haven't played it enough.
You seem to just read bits of my posts and attack things mindlessly; it's a waste of both our time. Having not slept all night, I'm done for a while.
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Everything feels better (though there are still some things I don't agree with, which I will mention after the beta release [so they hopefully change it])...especially sprint toggling and dodging.
I'm pretty sure Tremulous is in feature freeze at the moment which makes it doubtful that any game play changes are going to be introduced at this point in time. I definitely wouldn't wait until after beta if I were you to report anything other then bugs.
It's new features and stupid changes that have delayed it thus far, and they are now in a full freeze to get the damn thing out. So nothing new non bug fix will be getting done prior to beta.
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Last one of these I'm doing publicly because it amounts to little more than an ego-match that has little to nothing to do with my opinions of the dev cycle and much more to do with personal attacks. If you reply I will PM you a response if you like.
How is this an ego match? I think we are reading two different arguments. Again, get over yourself. I'm not attacking you; I'm arguing about your opinions.
No, my grammar was correct for the way I wanted it to sound. The use of "implicit" was to be sarcastic and understated.
Nope. Re-take an SAT writing course.
I'm not speaking of the size of matches which I prefer, I'm speaking of the size of games which I am likely to see. If everyday games are 10vs10, then that's what I'd like the game to be balanced for. I have trouble seeing that changing, although it would be nice.
You have a point there, but I think it is very possible to limit the size of public games (limit the amount of player slots and just create more servers).
You have a history of taking offense over nothing.
I don't even know what this is reference to, so meh. I'm aware I over-involve myself sometimes, but you're no different.
Well, from what I recall, you always used to butt into topics that didn't concern you, say something stupid, and feel offended when you received an appropriate response.
Boxes are ugly and allow for limited choice in server name. They also look like bugs. I don't blame them for not wanting to use them (plus, they can't fit the entire name -- what would they use, BOXBOXBOXMG?)
I don't see how this is in response to what I said, but boxes aren't the problem. Maybe add some coloring or simply name it Development Server so it didnt run right in with the default server name. Playing on the SVN servers requires an entirely different client, and none of those servers use any boxes, so this has become entirely irrelevant now.
It's in response to you saying "Maybe you should swallow your pride and put some boxes in your name." I think they have color in the name now, anyway. But yeah, now it's irrelevant.
Nah, you can't use the same logic because it doesn't make any fucking sense in that context. Wearing something out (1.1) and not believing something will happen (1.2) are two separate things. I think there are many reasons old players have quit playing. In fact, the biggest split I ever saw was unlagged, which effectively divided the community in half. Kinda foreshadows for me what's about to come. Sometimes even good change (not implying 1.2 balance changes are good) can suck for the community.
Again, it has nothing to do with my preference but my anticipation of what games will be like. If I could have an eternal 5v5 pickup game I sure would, but it's not going to happen.
I'm using this because you were making it sound like 1.1 is something most old clan players like (but apparently don't like enough to defend). I disagree; I've been hearing since 2007 that 1.1 is unbalanced/sucks/why do I even play it (note, I personally liked 1.1; I just think it's old). If 1.1 is in fact something most old players like, why is it that I never see most of them playing anymore?
That's why I find it ridiculous when you say things like "The fact that good players don't come here means they would rather spend their time playing the game, nothing else."
Funny, I think so too. However, that seems to be the exact opposite of what they're doing by taking the classes that are powerful but tricky to master and putting them into common but different use, like the basilisk.
You don't really have a basis to say this, given how little you've actually played 1.2. Changes I initially thought were retarded actually turned out pretty well. Also, the basilisk can be combined with a tyrant for an AWESOME way to kill chainsuits very easily (just needs some coordination). I can see them being very cool to use in scrims.
Because in the second one I was talking about hearing it from the players in game, which would demonstrate a general knowledge of 1.2, and in the first I was talking about hearing it for myself on the forums. Interesting how in the second quote you didn't bold OTHER THAN THAT TOPIC which makes it have an entirely different meaning.
There are two topics:
http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?action=globalAnnouncements;id=3 - the one with 3000 views you are referring to, and
http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=8622.0 - the one with almost 52000 views. Your sentence means that other than the 3000 view topic, you haven't heard anything about 1.2 testing. I recall you saying something about 1.2 just being thrusted upon the community without any warning (something like that)...there was ample "warning."
Do you even have a client capable of playing on the svn server? You seemed to ignore my earlier mention of it.
Sorry, I don't remember you mentioning it, but yes, I downloaded the beta clients.
We did come back to it and play a bit recently (after the 1.2 gameplay changes topic) and realized wowdamn it's for serious and it's sucky. I'm not going to spend more time playing it, because I do not like it at initial feel.
When I first started playing trem (1.1), I thought a few things that were actually balanced were unbalanced and stupid. Then I realized I just didn't play enough when I made those assumptions. Same shit.
You don't tell someone the only reason they don't like counter strike is because they haven't played it enough.
Yeah, but when a noob says "WOW THIS IS UNBALANCED AND STUPID I HATE IT," you scratch your head and tell them to play more.
You seem to just read bits of my posts and attack things mindlessly; it's a waste of both our time. Having not slept all night, I'm done for a while.
Again, I'm not attacking you; I'm attacking your arguments. I have nothing against you...I just think your argument has holes in it.
How's programming going?
Everything feels better (though there are still some things I don't agree with, which I will mention after the beta release [so they hopefully change it])...especially sprint toggling and dodging.
I'm pretty sure Tremulous is in feature freeze at the moment which makes it doubtful that any game play changes are going to be introduced at this point in time. I definitely wouldn't wait until after beta if I were you to report anything other then bugs.
It's new features and stupid changes that have delayed it thus far, and they are now in a full freeze to get the damn thing out. So nothing new non bug fix will be getting done prior to beta.
I also don't really know yet if things I think are unbalanced are due to me being rusty or actual unbalance, so I'll sit on them for now. It's also because I just want to play the damn release already.
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We realize that balance in *large* pub-style games have not really been tested. That's why beta exists and why during beta the official servers have high slot-counts (not quite as high as it looks though-- some of those are spectator slots).
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It's new features and stupid changes that have delayed it thus far, and they are now in a full freeze to get the damn thing out. So nothing new non bug fix will be getting done prior to beta.
Wait... I'm confused. Let me see if I understand this properly
1. We're in feature freeze now
2. 1.2 beta will then be released
3. Feature froze is now over!
4. Back to feature freeze
5. Release game!
Aren't we already in beta?
I'm not attacking you; I'm arguing about your opinions.
Nope. Re-take an SAT writing course.
Errr....
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No, beta is when we actually release the beta client formally with nice installers and advertise it. This is more of a pre-beta because since development is open and you can get the relevant files anyway, 'might as well let those interested help us test.
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Ahh, right. I was a bit confused because Norf referred to the current servers as beta servers.
Am I more or less right about the order you're releasing beta/feature freeze? Or am I way off and got everything all muddled up again.
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The people who gave feedback are a minority. People who didnt like the changes only spoke up when it seemed the changes were actually going to be implemented, and even then it wasnt alot of people. The truth of the matter is most people dont like the new changes, i for one loathe them. Why? It removes the fun from trem. I have played with the new changes many times and i have never really enjoyed the experience.
The gameplay of tremulous is what we all love. There isnt much else to be honest, it is the gameplay that captivates people, and is im my opinion the only reason trem is still alive today. Gameplay didnt need changing, maybe a few minor tweaks, but not the complete change which has be wrought. And you have completly changed it, and in doing so removed the fun, and created a game which is not tremulous.
1.2 should be released with 1.1 gameplay. And re-do the dev server, make minute changes, and release a 1.25
Also, im not against all of the changes, the obvious changes like the cade was a great idea. And i cant remember where it was brought up, but someone had the great idea of having the hovel as a seperate spawn que for grangers, which would be a great fix for it. (Also to stop abuse you can obviously stop evolving for a time)
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Currently we're frozen to get beta released. What we do after that is anyone's guess, right now. :)
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No, beta is when we actually release the beta client formally with nice installers and advertise it.
If the beta is released without the new models or maps, it would be a fatal mistake. A lot of people who haven't played in years wouldn't be able to tell the difference from 1.1 and 1.2 and quit playing right there. (If they, do in fact, play long enough to realize that the hovel is gone, then they would probably raaaaagequitttt.)
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@ amz, that was me, 1.2 changes gone offtopic.
@ face, I'm pretty sure beta's planned to be released without new models. They'll HAVE to put in the new maps seeing as how base geometry has to be different for the new turrets. 1.1 maps are not proper for 1.2 human bases, I think.
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I'm not speaking of the size of matches which I prefer, I'm speaking of the size of games which I am likely to see. If everyday games are 10vs10, then that's what I'd like the game to be balanced for. I have trouble seeing that changing, although it would be nice.
You have a point there, but I think it is very possible to limit the size of public games (limit the amount of player slots and just create more servers).
That wouldn't work largely because a huge part of tremulous is the social interaction. A lot of people refer to it as almost an IRC client. Servers with small slot sizes are good for only clan basics and thats shown by places like X and SST becoming so popular. A lot of people like to mingle into big games in almost any game. Even if they don't like noobs, more people in a game noobs or not generally lead to more variety and more interesting game play. Small matches get too repetitive too fast.
I don't think it matters though, because in the case of tremulous, I think balance in small games will equate to balance in large games with the excpetion of the more players the better chance humans have because of range. Which is excellent to think about considering at current standing its already easier to win as humans in 1.2 which means in larger public games, unless skill is stacked onto the aliens humans should almost always have the upper hand.
You have a history of taking offense over nothing.
I don't even know what this is reference to, so meh. I'm aware I over-involve myself sometimes, but you're no different.
Well, from what I recall, you always used to butt into topics that didn't concern you, say something stupid, and feel offended when you received an appropriate response.
I'm sorry but I forgot when you earned the right to say that other people take too much offence to other people in this game or the game itself. Taking the game to seriously and personally is your strongpoint afterall isn't it? Perhaps though I'm remembering wrong I mean its not like this ever happened? (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=11664.0)
Nah, you can't use the same logic because it doesn't make any fucking sense in that context. Wearing something out (1.1) and not believing something will happen (1.2) are two separate things. I think there are many reasons old players have quit playing. In fact, the biggest split I ever saw was unlagged, which effectively divided the community in half. Kinda foreshadows for me what's about to come. Sometimes even good change (not implying 1.2 balance changes are good) can suck for the community.
Again, it has nothing to do with my preference but my anticipation of what games will be like. If I could have an eternal 5v5 pickup game I sure would, but it's not going to happen.
I'm using this because you were making it sound like 1.1 is something most old clan players like (but apparently don't like enough to defend). I disagree; I've been hearing since 2007 that 1.1 is unbalanced/sucks/why do I even play it (note, I personally liked 1.1; I just think it's old). If 1.1 is in fact something most old players like, why is it that I never see most of them playing anymore?
That's why I find it ridiculous when you say things like "The fact that good players don't come here means they would rather spend their time playing the game, nothing else."
Anybody could get sick of something after so many years. But a lot of people including a lot of your clan members(St Anger, Dracone ect) show no interest in what is currently being called "1.2" Because its really no major improvements, its some balance changes based mostly off the opinion of one only semi-skilled player. They want some active servers and possibly new graphics/maps. I don't see them jumping back into 1.2 with the excpetion for a chance for something different. Anything gets boring after 3-4 years of palying it. Yet most of them are still around. Most of the players that actually quit quit wont come back for 1.2. They quit because they have lives and they're focused on them. Most of the people who got popular in the old days were either full grown adults who's lives got to hectic for games, or teenagers who are now focusing on school. It was un-related to 1.1 sucking.
Funny, I think so too. However, that seems to be the exact opposite of what they're doing by taking the classes that are powerful but tricky to master and putting them into common but different use, like the basilisk.
You don't really have a basis to say this, given how little you've actually played 1.2. Changes I initially thought were retarded actually turned out pretty well. Also, the basilisk can be combined with a tyrant for an AWESOME way to kill chainsuits very easily (just needs some coordination). I can see them being very cool to use in scrims.
Just because the lisk can now be used in different ways doesn't mean its equally as hard. No matter how you look at it, the lisk has been made easier to use, which is not a good thing. This is shown by how much they had to nerf their hax mara thanks to Anger, ect. You take an already powerful class, make it easier to use without weakening its basis, and you just turn it into a monster in the hands of an experienced player. I would love love love to see Ender pop up from the inactive/disappearing land and hop into 1.2 and take over entire games with the new lisk. They're taking a class that already served an excellent function but took time and patience to master and making them easier, then having to nerf them because of it. The last thing we need is for every alien to end up functioning like a goon.
Because in the second one I was talking about hearing it from the players in game, which would demonstrate a general knowledge of 1.2, and in the first I was talking about hearing it for myself on the forums. Interesting how in the second quote you didn't bold OTHER THAN THAT TOPIC which makes it have an entirely different meaning.
There are two topics:
http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?action=globalAnnouncements;id=3 - the one with 3000 views you are referring to, and
http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=8622.0 - the one with almost 52000 views. Your sentence means that other than the 3000 view topic, you haven't heard anything about 1.2 testing. I recall you saying something about 1.2 just being thrusted upon the community without any warning (something like that)...there was ample "warning."
No, because the 52,000 views thread was all MG's Developement Server in which MG consitantly reminded the community that MG != 1.2. That in the end they were only setting up a path for timbo. Now all of the sudden MG has become 1.2. Everytime in the past 2 years we asked about 1.2, we got a blind answer to it. Then if you tried to ask if MG was going to be 1.2, they kept clarifying that it was just their work at trying to found something for timbo that he may or may not use, and now years later of seperating themselves with the term 1.2 MG all the sudden becomes 1.2. Thats what no one knew was going on. We all knew MG was doing stuff, and lots of us did try and put opinions in, but most of us were ignored or feebly noted/rebuted. No one could of assumed that all the sudden with no pre-warning timbo would stamp MG development 1.2 without any non MG-Dev alterations. In my opinion the only one doing "real" work for 1.2 all this time was Stanum, and I would love to see more from him.
We did come back to it and play a bit recently (after the 1.2 gameplay changes topic) and realized wowdamn it's for serious and it's sucky. I'm not going to spend more time playing it, because I do not like it at initial feel.
When I first started playing trem (1.1), I thought a few things that were actually balanced were unbalanced and stupid. Then I realized I just didn't play enough when I made those assumptions. Same shit.
You don't tell someone the only reason they don't like counter strike is because they haven't played it enough.
Yeah, but when a noob says "WOW THIS IS UNBALANCED AND STUPID I HATE IT," you scratch your head and tell them to play more.
Wrong, 1.2 is not an entire new game. It's 1.1 with some baseline and serious class modifications, it doesn't take long to learn or adapt to them because in the end for the most part its still the same playing style. People who were good at Halo 1 were good at Halo 2 when it came out, just because there was some new features like dual weild and the sword didn't mean jack. The basics were still the basics and it was still the same game style and control basis. 1.2 isn't that much different than 1.1 and it doesn't take that long to get familiar with it. I personally have played close to 10 hours or so on the development server in the past few months, and before then I played at almost every saturday game. I put in a few opinions, mostly ingame and never saw any changes from it. Even though people were sharing those opinions with me. It felt too much like, "come play and tell us what you think so norf and MG can tell you why what you think is wrong and why we'll just do what we want with it." I didn't have any fear of it though, because MG kept clarifying that it was not 1.2, that it was just a base developement that could help to found 1.2 one day. I also got hope for a real 1.2 when we started seeing models and shit from Stanumn. That shit was epic and I was hoping that that would be 1.2, not MG Dev.
I haven't downloaded the new clients yet to beta test though, because what I've seen from the past year or so did not impress me on the mg developement server, so I could really care let at this point.
I wouldn't be so hasty to consider ozzy a noob. I'm pretty sure he could beat norf and most of MG on their own "1.2" even with having only 1/10th at most the experience they have on it.
Also, please don't take this as me fighting ozzy's battle. I actually disagree with him on a fair bit of points involving this and a lot of other things. I'm just pointing out the flaws I feel are in your argument.
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@ face, I'm pretty sure beta's planned to be released without new models. They'll HAVE to put in the new maps seeing as how base geometry has to be different for the new turrets. 1.1 maps are not proper for 1.2 human bases, I think.
The maps are already done and out there, so no reason to wait.
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@ face, I'm pretty sure beta's planned to be released without new models. They'll HAVE to put in the new maps seeing as how base geometry has to be different for the new turrets. 1.1 maps are not proper for 1.2 human bases, I think.
Then what is there, exactly, to advertise?
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The posts are becoming too long, and I have another week of studying ahead of me, so I'm only going to respond to a few things (no I'm not ignoring them):
First, you're Annihilation/Power Overwhelming, right? If so,
I'm sorry but I forgot when you earned the right to say that other people take too much offence to other people in this game or the game itself. Taking the game to seriously and personally is your strongpoint afterall isn't it? Perhaps though I'm remembering wrong I mean its not like this ever happened? (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=11664.0)
Lol? How is that taking anything personally? IIRC, I didn't even ban anyone from our server after the scrims. If you haven't noticed, many people enjoy Tremulous drama, including myself. If having fun in that way is the same as taking things too personally, then oh well. Personally, I think entering a thread, saying stupid things, getting called out and responding by saying "YOU'RE A JERK" and banning for it is taking things too personally...same deal with taking offense when someone tells you the truth (that you don't know something, yet). I won't be specific, since every post is starting to go off topic.
Anybody could get sick of something after so many years. But a lot of people including a lot of your clan members(St Anger, Dracone ect) show no interest in what is currently being called "1.2" Because its really no major improvements, its some balance changes based mostly off the opinion of one only semi-skilled player. They want some active servers and possibly new graphics/maps. I don't see them jumping back into 1.2 with the excpetion for a chance for something different. Anything gets boring after 3-4 years of palying it. Yet most of them are still around. Most of the players that actually quit quit wont come back for 1.2. They quit because they have lives and they're focused on them. Most of the people who got popular in the old days were either full grown adults who's lives got to hectic for games, or teenagers who are now focusing on school. It was un-related to 1.1 sucking.
I don't know who you know, but almost all of the great players I know are either around my age or younger. It also IS related to 1.1 being boring, at least for some of the people you've mentioned; how would you even know about my clan members? None of them really talk to you (they might once in a while, but that's fake).
Yeah, anything gets boring after 3 years. That's why I think it's important to change the game every once in a while, unless the original game is always just extremely fun (it might have been if the community were more skilled, but that's a different argument). Playing against people who always suck just isn't worth it after a while. The only solution, given this community, is a new version.
Besides, I still think 1.2 gameplay >>> 1.1 gameplay, so I don't even know why I'm arguing about 1.1 sucking. 1.1 was fine, but 1.2 is better.
Just because the lisk can now be used in different ways doesn't mean its equally as hard. No matter how you look at it, the lisk has been made easier to use, which is not a good thing. This is shown by how much they had to nerf their hax mara thanks to Anger, ect. You take an already powerful class, make it easier to use without weakening its basis, and you just turn it into a monster in the hands of an experienced player. I would love love love to see Ender pop up from the inactive/disappearing land and hop into 1.2 and take over entire games with the new lisk. They're taking a class that already served an excellent function but took time and patience to master and making them easier, then having to nerf them because of it. The last thing we need is for every alien to end up functioning like a goon.
You're looking at things individually, instead of holistically . The lisk might be easier to use in terms of 1.1 gameplay, but 1.2 humans are different. I'm still not afraid of basilisks, though they can get me a few times while I'm rusty.
Also, why does everyone keep bringing up the Anger-nerfing-mara story? They aren't perfect; they made the marauder too powerful at one point, and when Anger showed them, they nerfed it. Big deal. If you think something is overpowered now, show them.
No, because the 52,000 views thread was all MG's Developement Server in which MG consitantly reminded the community that MG != 1.2. That in the end they were only setting up a path for timbo. Now all of the sudden MG has become 1.2. Everytime in the past 2 years we asked about 1.2, we got a blind answer to it. Then if you tried to ask if MG was going to be 1.2, they kept clarifying that it was just their work at trying to found something for timbo that he may or may not use, and now years later of seperating themselves with the term 1.2 MG all the sudden becomes 1.2. Thats what no one knew was going on. We all knew MG was doing stuff, and lots of us did try and put opinions in, but most of us were ignored or feebly noted/rebuted. No one could of assumed that all the sudden with no pre-warning timbo would stamp MG development 1.2 without any non MG-Dev alterations. In my opinion the only one doing "real" work for 1.2 all this time was Stanum, and I would love to see more from him.
Admittedly, I didn't read that entire thread, but from what I did read in it over the months, and from what I've heard in-game from several different groups, I've always thought MG == 1.2. Maybe I missed some statements from them.
Wrong, 1.2 is not an entire new game. It's 1.1 with some baseline and serious class modifications, it doesn't take long to learn or adapt to them because in the end for the most part its still the same playing style. People who were good at Halo 1 were good at Halo 2 when it came out, just because there was some new features like dual weild and the sword didn't mean jack. The basics were still the basics and it was still the same game style and control basis. 1.2 isn't that much different than 1.1 and it doesn't take that long to get familiar with it. I personally have played close to 10 hours or so on the development server in the past few months, and before then I played at almost every saturday game. I put in a few opinions, mostly ingame and never saw any changes from it. Even though people were sharing those opinions with me. It felt too much like, "come play and tell us what you think so norf and MG can tell you why what you think is wrong and why we'll just do what we want with it." I didn't have any fear of it though, because MG kept clarifying that it was not 1.2, that it was just a base developement that could help to found 1.2 one day. I also got hope for a real 1.2 when we started seeing models and shit from Stanumn. That shit was epic and I was hoping that that would be 1.2, not MG Dev.
First of all, no offense, but I wouldn't trust suggestions for 1.1 balance changes, much less 1.2 ones, if they came from you. I don't blame them at all. You don't really know what you're talking about when it comes to gameplay.
Second of all, words don't mean much without support. If you think something is unbalanced or stupid, SHOW it to them, rather than write long posts about it. St. Anger was wise enough to do that with the marauder. Since you respect him so much, try to do what he did.
Third, yes. 1.2 is not a new game. Yes, you can apply your old skills to the new version's gameplay. However, that does not necessarily mean you'll be as good as you were in 1.1 after a few days or weeks of playing 1.2. Just because you suck with a new feature at first doesn't mean it's stupid or broken; during my first few games, I couldn't understand why the hell anyone would want to use the tyrant charge attack. Now I can see why (sorry, I like using this example though).
Ok, that's really all I have time for. I have another damn programming project and 2 midterms to study for. I'll be back next weekend for some more 1.2 games (please fking release it before then)!
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The posts are becoming too long, and I have another week of studying ahead of me, so I'm only going to respond to a few things (no I'm not ignoring them):
First, you're Annihilation/Power Overwhelming, right? If so,
I'm sorry but I forgot when you earned the right to say that other people take too much offence to other people in this game or the game itself. Taking the game to seriously and personally is your strongpoint afterall isn't it? Perhaps though I'm remembering wrong I mean its not like this ever happened? (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=11664.0)
Lol? How is that taking anything personally? IIRC, I didn't even ban anyone from our server after the scrims. If you haven't noticed, many people enjoy Tremulous drama, including myself. If having fun in that way is the same as taking things too personally, then oh well. Personally, I think entering a thread, saying stupid things, getting called out and responding by saying "YOU'RE A JERK" and banning for it is taking things too personally...same deal with taking offense when someone tells you the truth (that you don't know something, yet). I won't be specific, since every post is starting to go off topic.
I'm assuming the banning for it is related to Ozzy, since I haven't ran a server in over a year and when I did I banned people for a lot different things than forum fights. God I miss being able to abuse. Anyway, I think him banning you, would be far more related to his personal issues with you pushing back a lot further than this shit and its his right as server owner to not let people he doesn't like play on his server. I seriously doubt any of these MG people or norf or anyone of that status is banned from AA, and if they are, well thats just dipshitty on his behalf. Now, I have my serious issues, such as being overly dramatic(and you can't strike that as it will hypocrise some other things you just recently said), defensive, and immature. I do not, however, try to assume I know stuff that I don't know. I'll admit I'm far from perfect and I think thats a huge step towards working something out, is admitting that you don't know everything. I just unfortunately don't see you, MG, or Ozzy doing that and in the end result we just get a bunch of arrogent people battering over who thinks they know more, more or less, than the actual issue. Which does result in a lot of bitter presonal attacks. Sadly, this is happening on all ends and this whole thing has gotten to personal. Even I made some direct assaults on MG which were probably out of place, but in response a few of their members took it to the next great extreme. It's almost like an usual political compaign in some of these threads. Regardless, you have to know you take offense to a lot of things yourself Apple and you tend to dish out as much offensive remarks as you can to get the appropiate response so that you can call the person you're argueing with a crybaby or "easily offended" as your termonology specifies.
Anybody could get sick of something after so many years. But a lot of people including a lot of your clan members(St Anger, Dracone ect) show no interest in what is currently being called "1.2" Because its really no major improvements, its some balance changes based mostly off the opinion of one only semi-skilled player. They want some active servers and possibly new graphics/maps. I don't see them jumping back into 1.2 with the excpetion for a chance for something different. Anything gets boring after 3-4 years of palying it. Yet most of them are still around. Most of the players that actually quit quit wont come back for 1.2. They quit because they have lives and they're focused on them. Most of the people who got popular in the old days were either full grown adults who's lives got to hectic for games, or teenagers who are now focusing on school. It was un-related to 1.1 sucking.
I don't know who you know, but almost all of the great players I know are either around my age or younger. It also IS related to 1.1 being boring, at least for some of the people you've mentioned; how would you even know about my clan members? None of them really talk to you (they might once in a while, but that's fake).
Yeah, anything gets boring after 3 years. That's why I think it's important to change the game every once in a while, unless the original game is always just extremely fun (it might have been if the community were more skilled, but that's a different argument). Playing against people who always suck just isn't worth it after a while. The only solution, given this community, is a new version.
Besides, I still think 1.2 gameplay >>> 1.1 gameplay, so I don't even know why I'm arguing about 1.1 sucking. 1.1 was fine, but 1.2 is better.
Well, okay, that I can respect. A lot of people are indeed bored with 1.1 and 1.2 is something semi-ish newish. Howerver, I don't think most people will be too impressed with the 1.2 changes and I see a lot of people getting more bored with it than they did with 1.1 causing more actual "quits" of the game instead of people just going inactive and focusing on their lives. I forgot you must be fairly new to this game. Cataclaw, TerrorEast, Half of MG, Shafe, tjw, and so on. Those guys, they're just... you know, what 13-15? ;) Of course a large base percentage of the active good players are going to be young, because our generation is more focused in gaming than the older generation. These people, however, did not quit/go inactive because they find 1.1 dull, but moreso because they have lives and have focus's and tremulous tends to be a very time consuming game when you get involved. They're adults with responsibilities so a game must come second hand and in their cases it was probably easier to just step away than anything else.
Just because the lisk can now be used in different ways doesn't mean its equally as hard. No matter how you look at it, the lisk has been made easier to use, which is not a good thing. This is shown by how much they had to nerf their hax mara thanks to Anger, ect. You take an already powerful class, make it easier to use without weakening its basis, and you just turn it into a monster in the hands of an experienced player. I would love love love to see Ender pop up from the inactive/disappearing land and hop into 1.2 and take over entire games with the new lisk. They're taking a class that already served an excellent function but took time and patience to master and making them easier, then having to nerf them because of it. The last thing we need is for every alien to end up functioning like a goon.
You're looking at things individually, instead of holistically . The lisk might be easier to use in terms of 1.1 gameplay, but 1.2 humans are different. I'm still not afraid of basilisks, though they can get me a few times while I'm rusty.
Also, why does everyone keep bringing up the Anger-nerfing-mara story? They aren't perfect; they made the marauder too powerful at one point, and when Anger showed them, they nerfed it. Big deal. If you think something is overpowered now, show them.
The reason we keep bringing up the anger-nerfing-mara story is because it is still relevant. It is a repetition of what is happening.
Maruader - anger.
Dretch(nerfed to not hurt rets) - unnamed developer was able to destroy entire bases with 1-2 dretch runs. Hmm instead of figuring out why dretch is good at that or what is wrong with rets in that case lets just take a fundemental part of the game away by not letting dretches hurt those structures!
Other unbalanced issues.
Luci Cannon
Tyrant Charge
The whole point of balance changes, should be to make some minor adjustments to tweak the gameplay to help the balance. Bringing adv goon to stage 2 helped there, lowering tyrants hp good job, iffy but probably decently designed new alien regen system. The most part though, has been radical changes that severly hurt the balance.
Take some random players, mix up random teams, switch out players/teams, and I guarantee you right now humans would win 75% of games played.
They took a game that was stacked towards alien in a slight measure, most server tremstats showed a 55-65% alien victory rate on average and made it stack even worse to the other side while trying to create balance. Then they added radical features such as a one hit kill anything tyrant charge and psychotic turrets that if you end up in their line of fire rip you to shreds but are otherwise useless because they're slower than jessica simpson in general focus and whatever else you can imagine. How is that helping the game? In the opinions of almost everyone playing 1.2 so far in the pre-beta release and before that it feels less balanced than it was before. At least of the people that I have talked to.
No, because the 52,000 views thread was all MG's Developement Server in which MG consitantly reminded the community that MG != 1.2. That in the end they were only setting up a path for timbo. Now all of the sudden MG has become 1.2. Everytime in the past 2 years we asked about 1.2, we got a blind answer to it. Then if you tried to ask if MG was going to be 1.2, they kept clarifying that it was just their work at trying to found something for timbo that he may or may not use, and now years later of seperating themselves with the term 1.2 MG all the sudden becomes 1.2. Thats what no one knew was going on. We all knew MG was doing stuff, and lots of us did try and put opinions in, but most of us were ignored or feebly noted/rebuted. No one could of assumed that all the sudden with no pre-warning timbo would stamp MG development 1.2 without any non MG-Dev alterations. In my opinion the only one doing "real" work for 1.2 all this time was Stanum, and I would love to see more from him.
Admittedly, I didn't read that entire thread, but from what I did read in it over the months, and from what I've heard in-game from several different groups, I've always thought MG == 1.2. Maybe I missed some statements from them.
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Several times, MG emphasized that MG Developement != 1.2. While they did imply, that it was the foundation and a possible direction of 1.2, it was never officially said until very recently that it was indeed 1.2. I think it was Kelv that said something like this is just MG's attempt at helping towards developemnt of 1.2 and it is not officially 1.2, timbo could scrap everything we've done or just use bits or parts of it. While everyone obviously knew MG was developing and that it was plausible that it could be 1.2 sometime in the future, no one really expected it as far as I could tell, because MG never tried to make sure we knew that it was going to be. We also assumed that if it turned the case so, it would be a more subtle introduction. Such as timbo saying, Hey guys, I like most of what MG did, so I'm giong to take what they've done, and begin official developement of 1.2. Not hey, after 2 years of MG saying MG != 1.2, Norf is gonna come out and go, We were JK, MG == 1.2 nao gg.
Wrong, 1.2 is not an entire new game. It's 1.1 with some baseline and serious class modifications, it doesn't take long to learn or adapt to them because in the end for the most part its still the same playing style. People who were good at Halo 1 were good at Halo 2 when it came out, just because there was some new features like dual weild and the sword didn't mean jack. The basics were still the basics and it was still the same game style and control basis. 1.2 isn't that much different than 1.1 and it doesn't take that long to get familiar with it. I personally have played close to 10 hours or so on the development server in the past few months, and before then I played at almost every saturday game. I put in a few opinions, mostly ingame and never saw any changes from it. Even though people were sharing those opinions with me. It felt too much like, "come play and tell us what you think so norf and MG can tell you why what you think is wrong and why we'll just do what we want with it." I didn't have any fear of it though, because MG kept clarifying that it was not 1.2, that it was just a base developement that could help to found 1.2 one day. I also got hope for a real 1.2 when we started seeing models and shit from Stanumn. That shit was epic and I was hoping that that would be 1.2, not MG Dev.
First of all, no offense, but I wouldn't trust suggestions for 1.1 balance changes, much less 1.2 ones, if they came from you. I don't blame them at all. You don't really know what you're talking about when it comes to gameplay.
Second of all, words don't mean much without support. If you think something is unbalanced or stupid, SHOW it to them, rather than write long posts about it. St. Anger was wise enough to do that with the marauder. Since you respect him so much, try to do what he did.
Third, yes. 1.2 is not a new game. Yes, you can apply your old skills to the new version's gameplay. However, that does not necessarily mean you'll be as good as you were in 1.1 after a few days or weeks of playing 1.2. Just because you suck with a new feature at first doesn't mean it's stupid or broken; during my first few games, I couldn't understand why the hell anyone would want to use the tyrant charge attack. Now I can see why (sorry, I like using this example though).
Ok, that's really all I have time for. I have another damn programming project and 2 midterms to study for. I'll be back next weekend for some more 1.2 games (please fking release it before then)!
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While you have a right to your opinion about me. Don't you think devoiding personal assaults is a lot better for producing a solidified unbaised argument to clarify your own thoughts and expressions of the matter?
I also love the concenptual use of "no offense" in the standard "I'm going to tell you not to take any offense to what I'm about to say and then I'm going to say somethign specifically and explicitly designed to be offensive in every manner and mean." Very mature and productive to our discussion.
I for one, other than in this thread, have not gone out and made long posts about what I find wrong/right with 1.2. I played the game, made some small posts mostly in response to norf and some others and put some input in game. All my input however was completely ignored or shot down without any real consideration even though at least 2-4 people in each case seemed to share an appropiate stance. Such as the dodging that sucks(hey! you mean the dodging you just said a few posts ago that you didn't like?! No way!, does that mean we're on the same thought train and we shouldn't trust any balance suggestions from you either?), the pyschotic rape all lucifer cannon, and the way to easy to use to 1-hit a chainsuit tyrant charge.
You don't really know what you're talking about when it comes to gameplay.
Ouch man, that really hurts.
I'm sorry, but even if I'm not as skilled as you, I think playing for over 3 years, playing in well over several thousand public matches and several hundred clan matches/pick up games, and building a respectable level of skill from playing with/watching well known players including yourself basis me with some point of understanding of gameplay and how to play the game.
I would also like to point out that skill != understanding the game. Which I know that statement makes me minorly hypocritical for the cheap stab I took at norf up above, hehe, but regardless its true. Do you think most referees of football could play half as good as any of the players? Of course not, but at the same time some of those players may not understand the game strategy and formats as well as their coach or the ref. Being able to shoot shit, and understanding the insides of gameplay and the different classes are way two different playing fields.
I mean, for how long I've actively played this game, I can confidently say I know enough about it to have a reasonable opinion, even if someone like yourself doesn't share that opinion.
I played on the dev games, and I found that if on humans I made it to s3, it was almost enough to end any game by myself with the luci. That thing is not a joke, and it almost doesn't even take predection skill anymore, you just charge it up and it kills shit. I am not anger, however, and of course I wont be able to go in and rape everyone with one class, because I haven't given that much dedication to one class ever before like anger has to mara, ender to lisk, apple to lasgun. I constantly switch around and don't stick with one class to long, because I find the game a lot more fun if I don't just jump straight to goon at 3 evos or I don't instantly grab shotty/md to whore dretches all day. I like mixing around and working on everything and because of that I don't have any one class that really makes me amazing, I'm just medioker at everything, except for maybe goon, but goon really doesn't take much expertise to master, its a straight forward simple class and once you get chomp range/pounce down you can use it at max effeciency based on your aiming/focus.
Doesn't this right here -
Ok, that's really all I have time for. I have another damn programming project and 2 midterms to study for. I'll be back next weekend for some more 1.2 games (please fking release it before then)!
Completely support me saying this - Most of the people who got popular in the old days were either full grown adults who's lives got to hectic for games, or teenagers who are now focusing on school.
and contradict you saying this -
It also IS related to 1.1 being boring,
Essentially, if 1.1 is boring to you, thats probably because you've been playing it to long and changing it wont necessarily fix it, its a temporary fix. Rushing to change something isn't always good, change isn't always good. It may be new and something different, but different is not equal to better, and in my opinion 1.2 is not better.
One last thing at the mention of the people I mentioned and our "fake" conversations. Anger has never been one to hide his discontent with MG's "1.2." He spent well over a month MD whoring at my MS server because of low ping/fairly high player base and I had plenty of fairly meaningful conversations with him. He even supported my AA application saying that I was skilled and had a lot of potential and my personality had improved a lot. That may not stand anymore, but I have/had been on good terms with St. Anger and Dracone both for large periods of times and have had some fairly reasonable conversations with them. Dracone is the one who gave me the name Annihilation and supported me when the rest of the community wanted me to just die and go away, after the Beer Garden days. So get over yourself on that aspect. I may not be the most liked player in tremulous, but this isn't a high school yearbook contest and I'm not out to impress everybody. I'm out to play a game and have fun doing it.
Lets please avoid personal insults in any replies we continue to make. Thanks for your time!
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Annihilation/Silver,
I like you now. I mean it.
I enjoyed your post.
Ttyl (next week)!
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This is too funny.
If Anger had used a MD instead of Mara, would they have nerfed the MD?
LOL, whatever you say, its good for a laugh.
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I don't know who you know, but almost all of the great players I know are either around my age or younger.
I honestly can't think of a great player below the age of 16. Most good players seem to be 18 or older tbh.
\
Admittedly, I didn't read that entire thread, but from what I did read in it over the months, and from what I've heard in-game from several different groups, I've always thought MG == 1.2. Maybe I missed some statements from them.
They've said before the MG wasn't 1.2 and was just there to test some shit out. Except now it's apparently. Probably just another case of the devs not being able to communicate with the community.
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This is too funny.
If Anger had used a MD instead of Mara, would they have nerfed the MD?
LOL, whatever you say, its good for a laugh.
No, they would of just decreased the dretch hitbox even more. ;)
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Good luck devs! Thanks for all of the hard work and open door policy! Keep it up.
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i like tremulous :)
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i like tremulous 1.1 :)
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If you have such a big problem with 1.2, go host your own master server and continue playing 1.1 . This discussion really isn't worth the flaming. The devs are not in any way, shape, or form paid to develop this game. They are really a group of friends who all have atleast 2 strengths in common: 1, Creativity and 2, coding skills. While there are being changes made to the game, they aren't all bad. Ozzy: you should atleast wait until the final 1.2 release to make your negative decision, which is, by the way, on all acounts biased due to the fact that you own and run the top 1.1 un modded server, and you're pretty afraid that you'll lose a few newcomers to the game because the official servers will be placed at the top.
Anyways, back on topic: just because your lucijump blocking hovel is non existant in 1.2 doesn't mean it's bad. Atleast give it a chance. I've played 3 dozen dev games, and loved every one. Think about it: the first time you played 1.1, did you know you were going to love it and continue playing it for 2, 3,4, andceven 5 years? I think not.
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Or keep using the current master. Not like they are going to filter 1.1 servers out.
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Ozzy: you should atleast wait until the final 1.2 release to make your negative decision, which is, by the way, on all acounts biased due to the fact that you own and run the top 1.1 un modded server, and you're pretty afraid that you'll lose a few newcomers to the game because the official servers will be placed at the top.
This is one retarded post. ^
I cannot host my own master server, I have not the knowledge or the funds.
I should not wait until final, until it's far too late for feedback.
Hell of a lot of assumptions about me. Had you ever talked to me about why I host AA, you would know you are far from the truth. It isn't about my server, it's about Tremulous (un-modded Tremulous, and that means no norf's mod) staying alive as long as I can help it.
Your server is popular but it's the last bastion of a dieing thing. Everywhere else is modded to shit and you've had to whore it up with boxes, share, atcs to keep even that alive. I don't blame you for doing it and I'm glad you did
And all that is fine so long as I'm trying to keep Tremulous away from X, away from uBP, away from Skittles, but when I continue to keep it away from Norfenstein, I become the bad guy.
If AA was not the last of its kind I would never have shelled out all the money and time I've crammed into it. If this was about server popularity I would not have a problem. I would pay for my featured server and run 1.2 and enjoy the same noob count as always. This is about keeping alive a brand of Tremulous which should be immortal.
The first time I played 1.1, YES, Yes I fucking knew I would never leave this game. From the style of community that popped up around servers then, to the class diversity, to the cool secrets and vents in maps, to the Open Source benefit of being able to make anything you want a reality: yes, I knew. I loved it so much I played for 6 months a trackpad, and then a year after that on a pentium 2 PC. The game may not have always felt balanced, but it always felt fun.
Duck: You should at least wait until you know a person before you start making negative decisions about their motives.
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People don't like 1.2 because it is perfectly balanced :D
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Duck stop being an idiot. Most of us arent flaming, and are merely getting heated (in ozzys case, very heated). You give feedback before a game is released, that was the point of the dev server, you do not wait till it has been released, then say its crap, that will get the game nowhere, to suggest otherwise is quite frankly, idiotic.
And mitsugna, my only reason (well theres actually 2) is that it just isnt fun anymore, if 1.2 is released with the current changes, and is likely to stay that way, i really dont think i would play anymore, the balance changes just suck all the fun out of it. A secondary reason is that its not tremulous anymore, you may argue otherwise, but it is definetly not the trem i know and love.
Also, on a side note, stop acting under the pretence that ozzy is just afraid his server isnt gonna be as popular. I think we all know that has some truth in it, no matter what ozzy might say, but he is right to be angry at the fact the official servers will inevitably (if you say otherwise, you are delusional) have a severe impact on player ran servers over the long term. AA no matter what your stance towards it, has done quite alot for trem, it would be quite a loss to see it disapear, or any other player ran servers for that matter.
Also, the last thing i want to say, which is by far the most important: Smoking KILLS
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If I can put my 5 cents in. After reading page one, and half of page two I skipped to the end so that I can post a thought or two.
Like others I would have liked minor releases, to fix the vanilla bugs, you know, the serious lack of security, the crash bugs and upgrades to tremded. Let's get serious, there wasn't a whole lot of those in the vanilla code. In those releases I seriously don't think that any additional administration features needed to be added. Just the ones that are important for getting the job done. It would have been nice to have the Trem Dev team consider that 1.2 would take ages to produce, and perhaps they could take a thought for all those players who would join the fun after they released the vanilla and give them something good and secure to play with.
My second thought is that with all the game-play changes, model changes etc is it really fair to call it 1.2, to me it seems more like 2.0. I would think that the scale of changes to trem would imply that it's quite a significant change.
What gets me is not the level of advertisement, because I've been aware that it's happening, it's that it's taken this long and it still isn't released. The reason I say this is due the the huge gaping holes in the vanilla stock. I understand that there's mods of this mod, and people doing their own thing, but it's not the same as coming from the official team. If the dev team did release sub versions to fix the bugs, and improve security I definitely would not feel left out in the cold. The issue with all these mods is that no-one now really knows what tremulous really is, there's so many qvm's and clients that have been built because the dev team have been stuck in this dev cycle that never seems to end.
I understand that everyone has a life, but subversion releases, is that really too much to ask? C'mon seriously?
For the record I don't think you'll see, or have seen, too many people from Australia on the Dev servers since playing at 250ping is really quite impossible unless you want to be relegated to builder all the time. I'm not criticizing just stating facts. I've played one game there I think so I really can't comment on whether or not the changes are good. I can only hope that the rest of you guys that get a better game out of it know what you're talking about. (having said all this I still pwned on SST)
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Ozzy: you should atleast wait until the final 1.2 release to make your negative decision, which is, by the way, on all acounts biased due to the fact that you own and run the top 1.1 un modded server, and you're pretty afraid that you'll lose a few newcomers to the game because the official servers will be placed at the top.
This is one retarded post. ^
Hell of a lot of assumptions about me. Had you ever talked to me about why I host AA, you would know you are far from the truth. It isn't about my server, it's about Tremulous (un-modded Tremulous, and that means no norf's mod) staying alive as long as I can help it.
And therefore you don't wish to see players leaving your server and missing out on old Tremulous.
...Just saying...
Maybe it's really for "Tremulous (un-modded Tremulous, and that means no norf's mod) staying alive as long as I can help it." But since you yourself have said AA is "the last of its kind" that just traslates to your own server.
I don't disagree with your actions, I'd like 1.1 to still hang around, but you seem to flame Duck for being wrong and than prove he was right.
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I don't disagree with your actions, I'd like 1.1 to still hang around, but you seem to flame Duck for being wrong and than almost prove he was right.
"Almost" ain't worth shit 'round these parts.
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I don't disagree with your actions, I'd like 1.1 to still hang around, but you seem to flame Duck for being wrong and than almost prove he was right.
"Almost" ain't worth shit 'round these parts.
I mean't almost as in basically, as in, not all of what he said pertained to that point of Duck's and some was slighlty varied because of different points of views, but I got rid of that extra word for you because I know how hard it can be to understand words with more than four or five letters.
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I meant almost as in basically, as in, not all of what he said pertained to that point of Duck's and some was slightly varied because of different points of views, but I got rid of that extra word for you because I know how hard it can be to understand words with more than four or five letters.
You needn't instigate petty flame wars by insinuating that my brain lacks the capacity for understanding medium to long words. In fact, my vocabulary includes a plethora of words that are much, much longer than five letters (and I think my use of a few of these has certainly demonstrated my capacity for big words).
Anyway, anyone with half a brain can probably understand that, yes, while Ozzy may loose players, he doesn't give a fuck. He wants to keep 1.1 alive, be it with his own server or by assisting the smooth operation of another. It's not about his server, it's about his 1.1 server.
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It's not about his server, it's about his 1.1 server.
And that is exactly what I said earlier. ::) Duck may have said it negatively and gotten his reason for wanting his server to stay at the top but he was still right. I don't see why you think you need to go and defend Ozzy. I didn't critizing him in any way, I simply pointed out the way he worded his post made him sound hypocritical. You weren't involved in something that should have been one post.
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Just for the record, no one is planning or talking about filtering 1.1 servers out of the master server list, so you'll be able to continue playing 1.1 no matter what. What I'm getting at is that if 1.1 servers are popular enough, they will hang around. In this way, it's pretty silly to be getting too upset about the 1.2 game play changes as if it does turn out that it's genuinely unpopular, no one will play it. Democracy in action ;). Regardless of what happens you can still play whichever version you like.
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The beauty of free choice!
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I'd just like to put in here that I really like the 1.2 stuff so far, and I'm really psyched about the upcoming release. It's about time.
I find that the dev games are the most fun I have when I play trem, and if I could, I'd play them exclusively. The new standard in 1.1 gameplay (X, crap mods, and yes, AA as well) are fucking mind-numbing and boring. There is little strategy. spawn-rush-die spawn-rush-die spawn-camp-die until sd where it changes into spawn-camp-sd-aliens win. Some servers are worse than others, and some are better. Some of the crappy mod servers are more fun in that regard. Veering a little off topic, I think it's mostly the fault of share. I wish I could kill share entirely so that it never got included in anything, it murders the gameplay.
Regarding the whole "MG != 1.2" thing, I have always interpreted it from the start as "We are testing these changes in the hopes that they will be accepted as 1.2. It's not 1.2 right now, since no developer has stated that it will be. We hope it will be 1.2". You're acting like going from that to "OK, one of the devs approved this as 1.2" is unreasonable.
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Just for the love of god, create a damn tutorial video, so these fucking noobs know how to use the armoury. Thats all you honestly needed to do, to balance this damn game. Teach people how to play properly via a 20 min tutorial.
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What's happening to this comunity? After many years we're finally close to get the new version and all I see is whine and more whine. There are aspects of 1.2 I like more and less, but they are just details. All I really want is it released for once!
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side effects of space-time travel
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Just for the record, no one is planning or talking about filtering 1.1 servers out of the master server list, so you'll be able to continue playing 1.1 no matter what. What I'm getting at is that if 1.1 servers are popular enough, they will hang around. In this way, it's pretty silly to be getting too upset about the 1.2 game play changes as if it does turn out that it's genuinely unpopular, no one will play it. Democracy in action ;). Regardless of what happens you can still play whichever version you like.
1.1 servers with 1.2 models? or 1.2 and 1.1.
Because if it the second, then 1.1 servers will clearly die out.
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I prefer the ol' style models 'cause they are quaint.
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Just 1.2 and 1.1. Unless someone decides to port the new models/textures over to 1.1.
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Or as is more likley, "1.1" will die very quickly and someone will make a 1.1 style gameplay mod for 1.2. Or more likley 10 people will make 10 different mods and everyone will complain that none of them are what they think 1.1 is >_>.
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or 1.2 will die
along with david.
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And communism.
Wait, shit. Apparently that already happened. :\
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But open source IS communism ???
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Hey L7
Hmmm..... So the 1.2 discussion continues - heh. I may have to polish up my Prifle and give it another go.