Re: 1.2 Gameplay Changes derails into dev cycle

[Silver]

I'm not speaking of the size of matches which I prefer, I'm speaking of the size of games which I am likely to see. If everyday games are 10vs10, then that's what I'd like the game to be balanced for. I have trouble seeing that changing, although it would be nice.

You have a point there, but I think it is very possible to limit the size of public games (limit the amount of player slots and just create more servers).

That wouldn't work largely because a huge part of tremulous is the social interaction.  A lot of people refer to it as almost an IRC client.  Servers with small slot sizes are good for only clan basics and thats shown by places like X and SST becoming so popular.  A lot of people like to mingle into big games in almost any game.  Even if they don't like noobs, more people in a game noobs or not generally lead to more variety and more interesting game play.  Small matches get too repetitive too fast. 

I don't think it matters though, because in the case of tremulous, I think balance in small games will equate to balance in large games with the excpetion of the more players the better chance humans have because of range.  Which is excellent to think about considering at current standing its already easier to win as humans in 1.2 which means in larger public games, unless skill is stacked onto the aliens humans should almost always have the upper hand.

You have a history of taking offense over nothing.

I don't even know what this is reference to, so meh. I'm aware I over-involve myself sometimes, but you're no different.

Well, from what I recall, you always used to butt into topics that didn't concern you, say something stupid, and feel offended when you received an appropriate response.

I'm sorry but I forgot when you earned the right to say that other people take too much offence to other people in this game or the game itself.  Taking the game to seriously and personally is your strongpoint afterall isn't it?  Perhaps though I'm remembering wrong I mean its not like this ever happened?

Nah, you can't use the same logic because it doesn't make any fucking sense in that context. Wearing something out (1.1) and not believing something will happen (1.2) are two separate things. I think there are many reasons old players have quit playing. In fact, the biggest split I ever saw was unlagged, which effectively divided the community in half. Kinda foreshadows for me what's about to come. Sometimes even good change (not implying 1.2 balance changes are good) can suck for the community.
Again, it has nothing to do with my preference but my anticipation of what games will be like. If I could have an eternal 5v5 pickup game I sure would, but it's not going to happen.

I'm using this because you were making it sound like 1.1 is something most old clan players like (but apparently don't like enough to defend). I disagree; I've been hearing since 2007 that 1.1 is unbalanced/sucks/why do I even play it (note, I personally liked 1.1; I just think it's old). If 1.1 is in fact something most old players like, why is it that I never see most of them playing anymore?
That's why I find it ridiculous when you say things like "The fact that good players don't come here means they would rather spend their time playing the game, nothing else."

Anybody could get sick of something after so many years.  But a lot of people including a lot of your clan members(St Anger, Dracone ect) show no interest in what is currently being called "1.2"  Because its really no major improvements, its some balance changes based mostly off the opinion of one only semi-skilled player.  They want some active servers and possibly new graphics/maps.  I don't see them jumping back into 1.2 with the excpetion for a chance for something different.  Anything gets boring after 3-4 years of palying it.  Yet most of them are still around.  Most of the players that actually quit quit wont come back for 1.2.  They quit because they have lives and they're focused on them.  Most of the people who got popular in the old days were either full grown adults who's lives got to hectic for games, or teenagers who are now focusing on school.  It was un-related to 1.1 sucking.

Funny, I think so too. However, that seems to be the exact opposite of what they're doing by taking the classes that are powerful but tricky to master and putting them into common but different use, like the basilisk.

You don't really have a basis to say this, given how little you've actually played 1.2. Changes I initially thought were retarded actually turned out pretty well. Also, the basilisk can be combined with a tyrant for an AWESOME way to kill chainsuits very easily (just needs some coordination). I can see them being very cool to use in scrims.

Just because the lisk can now be used in different ways doesn't mean its equally as hard.  No matter how you look at it, the lisk has been made easier to use, which is not a good thing.  This is shown by how much they had to nerf their hax mara thanks to Anger, ect.  You take an already powerful class, make it easier to use without weakening its basis, and you just turn it into a monster in the hands of an experienced player.  I would love love love to see Ender pop up from the inactive/disappearing land and hop into 1.2 and take over entire games with the new lisk.  They're taking a class that already served an excellent function but took time and patience to master and making them easier, then having to nerf them because of it.  The last thing we need is for every alien to end up functioning like a goon.

Because in the second one I was talking about hearing it from the players in game, which would demonstrate a general knowledge of 1.2, and in the first I was talking about hearing it for myself on the forums. Interesting how in the second quote you didn't bold OTHER THAN THAT TOPIC which makes it have an entirely different meaning.

There are two topics:
http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?action=globalAnnouncements;id=3 - the one with 3000 views you are referring to, and
http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=8622.0 - the one with almost 52000 views. Your sentence means that other than the 3000 view topic, you haven't heard anything about 1.2 testing. I recall you saying something about 1.2 just being thrusted upon the community without any warning (something like that)...there was ample "warning."

No, because the 52,000 views thread was all MG's Developement Server in which MG consitantly reminded the community that MG != 1.2.  That in the end they were only setting up a path for timbo.  Now all of the sudden MG has become 1.2.  Everytime in the past 2 years we asked about 1.2, we got a blind answer to it.  Then if you tried to ask if MG was going to be 1.2, they kept clarifying that it was just their work at trying to found something for timbo that he may or may not use, and now years later of seperating themselves with the term 1.2 MG all the sudden becomes 1.2.  Thats what no one knew was going on.  We all knew MG was doing stuff, and lots of us did try and put opinions in, but most of us were ignored or feebly noted/rebuted.  No one could of assumed that all the sudden with no pre-warning timbo would stamp MG development 1.2 without any non MG-Dev alterations.  In my opinion the only one doing "real" work for 1.2 all this time was Stanum, and I would love to see more from him.

We did come back to it and play a bit recently (after the 1.2 gameplay changes topic) and realized wowdamn it's for serious and it's sucky. I'm not going to spend more time playing it, because I do not like it at initial feel.

When I first started playing trem (1.1), I thought a few things that were actually balanced were unbalanced and stupid. Then I realized I just didn't play enough when I made those assumptions. Same shit.

You don't tell someone the only reason they don't like counter strike is because they haven't played it enough.

Yeah, but when a noob says "WOW THIS IS UNBALANCED AND STUPID I HATE IT," you scratch your head and tell them to play more.

Wrong, 1.2 is not an entire new game.  It's 1.1 with some baseline and serious class modifications, it doesn't take long to learn or adapt to them because in the end for the most part its still the same playing style.  People who were good at Halo 1 were good at Halo 2 when it came out, just because there was some new features like dual weild and the sword didn't mean jack.  The basics were still the basics and it was still the same game style and control basis.  1.2 isn't that much different than 1.1 and it doesn't take that long to get familiar with it.  I personally have played close to 10 hours or so on the development server in the past few months, and before then I played at almost every saturday game.  I put in a few opinions, mostly ingame and never saw any changes from it.  Even though people were sharing those opinions with me.  It felt too much like, "come play and tell us what you think so norf and MG can tell you why what you think is wrong and why we'll just do what we want with it."  I didn't have any fear of it though, because MG kept clarifying that it was not 1.2, that it was just a base developement that could help to found 1.2 one day.  I also got hope for a real 1.2 when we started seeing models and shit from Stanumn.  That shit was epic and I was hoping that that would be 1.2, not MG Dev.

I haven't downloaded the new clients yet to beta test though, because what I've seen from the past year or so did not impress me on the mg developement server, so I could really care let at this point.

I wouldn't be so hasty to consider ozzy a noob.  I'm pretty sure he could beat norf and most of MG on their own "1.2" even with having only 1/10th at most the experience they have on it.



Also, please don't take this as me fighting ozzy's battle.  I actually disagree with him on a fair bit of points involving this and a lot of other things.  I'm just pointing out the flaws I feel are in your argument.

[David]

@ face, I'm pretty sure beta's planned to be released without new models. They'll HAVE to put in the new maps seeing as how base geometry has to be different for the new turrets. 1.1 maps are not proper for 1.2 human bases, I think.

The maps are already done and out there, so no reason to wait.

[your face]

@ face, I'm pretty sure beta's planned to be released without new models. They'll HAVE to put in the new maps seeing as how base geometry has to be different for the new turrets. 1.1 maps are not proper for 1.2 human bases, I think.

Then what is there, exactly, to advertise?

[AppleJuice]

The posts are becoming too long, and I have another week of studying ahead of me, so I'm only going to respond to a few things (no I'm not ignoring them):

First, you're Annihilation/Power Overwhelming, right? If so,

I'm sorry but I forgot when you earned the right to say that other people take too much offence to other people in this game or the game itself.  Taking the game to seriously and personally is your strongpoint afterall isn't it?  Perhaps though I'm remembering wrong I mean its not like this ever happened?

Lol? How is that taking anything personally? IIRC, I didn't even ban anyone from our server after the scrims. If you haven't noticed, many people enjoy Tremulous drama, including myself. If having fun in that way is the same as taking things too personally, then oh well. Personally, I think entering a thread, saying stupid things, getting called out and responding by saying "YOU'RE A JERK" and banning for it is taking things too personally...same deal with taking offense when someone tells you the truth (that you don't know something, yet). I won't be specific, since every post is starting to go off topic.

Anybody could get sick of something after so many years.  But a lot of people including a lot of your clan members(St Anger, Dracone ect) show no interest in what is currently being called "1.2"  Because its really no major improvements, its some balance changes based mostly off the opinion of one only semi-skilled player.  They want some active servers and possibly new graphics/maps.  I don't see them jumping back into 1.2 with the excpetion for a chance for something different.  Anything gets boring after 3-4 years of palying it.  Yet most of them are still around.  Most of the players that actually quit quit wont come back for 1.2.  They quit because they have lives and they're focused on them.  Most of the people who got popular in the old days were either full grown adults who's lives got to hectic for games, or teenagers who are now focusing on school.  It was un-related to 1.1 sucking.

I don't know who you know, but almost all of the great players I know are either around my age or younger. It also IS related to 1.1 being boring, at least for some of the people you've mentioned; how would you even know about my clan members? None of them really talk to you (they might once in a while, but that's fake).
Yeah, anything gets boring after 3 years. That's why I think it's important to change the game every once in a while, unless the original game is always just extremely fun (it might have been if the community were more skilled, but that's a different argument). Playing against people who always suck just isn't worth it after a while. The only solution, given this community, is a new version.

Besides, I still think 1.2 gameplay >>> 1.1 gameplay, so I don't even know why I'm arguing about 1.1 sucking. 1.1 was fine, but 1.2 is better.

Just because the lisk can now be used in different ways doesn't mean its equally as hard.  No matter how you look at it, the lisk has been made easier to use, which is not a good thing.  This is shown by how much they had to nerf their hax mara thanks to Anger, ect.  You take an already powerful class, make it easier to use without weakening its basis, and you just turn it into a monster in the hands of an experienced player.  I would love love love to see Ender pop up from the inactive/disappearing land and hop into 1.2 and take over entire games with the new lisk.  They're taking a class that already served an excellent function but took time and patience to master and making them easier, then having to nerf them because of it.  The last thing we need is for every alien to end up functioning like a goon.

You're looking at things individually, instead of holistically . The lisk might be easier to use in terms of 1.1 gameplay, but 1.2 humans are different. I'm still not afraid of basilisks, though they can get me a few times while I'm rusty.

Also, why does everyone keep bringing up the Anger-nerfing-mara story? They aren't perfect; they made the marauder too powerful at one point, and when Anger showed them, they nerfed it. Big deal. If you think something is overpowered now, show them.

No, because the 52,000 views thread was all MG's Developement Server in which MG consitantly reminded the community that MG != 1.2.  That in the end they were only setting up a path for timbo.  Now all of the sudden MG has become 1.2.  Everytime in the past 2 years we asked about 1.2, we got a blind answer to it.  Then if you tried to ask if MG was going to be 1.2, they kept clarifying that it was just their work at trying to found something for timbo that he may or may not use, and now years later of seperating themselves with the term 1.2 MG all the sudden becomes 1.2.  Thats what no one knew was going on.  We all knew MG was doing stuff, and lots of us did try and put opinions in, but most of us were ignored or feebly noted/rebuted.  No one could of assumed that all the sudden with no pre-warning timbo would stamp MG development 1.2 without any non MG-Dev alterations.  In my opinion the only one doing "real" work for 1.2 all this time was Stanum, and I would love to see more from him.

Admittedly, I didn't read that entire thread, but from what I did read in it over the months, and from what I've heard in-game from several different groups, I've always thought MG == 1.2. Maybe I missed some statements from them.

Wrong, 1.2 is not an entire new game.  It's 1.1 with some baseline and serious class modifications, it doesn't take long to learn or adapt to them because in the end for the most part its still the same playing style.  People who were good at Halo 1 were good at Halo 2 when it came out, just because there was some new features like dual weild and the sword didn't mean jack.  The basics were still the basics and it was still the same game style and control basis.  1.2 isn't that much different than 1.1 and it doesn't take that long to get familiar with it.  I personally have played close to 10 hours or so on the development server in the past few months, and before then I played at almost every saturday game.  I put in a few opinions, mostly ingame and never saw any changes from it.  Even though people were sharing those opinions with me.  It felt too much like, "come play and tell us what you think so norf and MG can tell you why what you think is wrong and why we'll just do what we want with it."  I didn't have any fear of it though, because MG kept clarifying that it was not 1.2, that it was just a base developement that could help to found 1.2 one day.  I also got hope for a real 1.2 when we started seeing models and shit from Stanumn.  That shit was epic and I was hoping that that would be 1.2, not MG Dev.

First of all, no offense, but I wouldn't trust suggestions for 1.1 balance changes, much less 1.2 ones, if they came from you. I don't blame them at all. You don't really know what you're talking about when it comes to gameplay.

Second of all, words don't mean much without support. If you think something is unbalanced or stupid, SHOW it to them, rather than write long posts about it. St. Anger was wise enough to do that with the marauder. Since you respect him so much, try to do what he did.

Third, yes. 1.2 is not a new game. Yes, you can apply your old skills to the new version's gameplay. However, that does not necessarily mean you'll be as good as you were in 1.1 after a few days or weeks of playing 1.2. Just because you suck with a new feature at first doesn't mean it's stupid or broken; during my first few games, I couldn't understand why the hell anyone would want to use the tyrant charge attack. Now I can see why (sorry, I like using this example though).


Ok, that's really all I have time for. I have another damn programming project and 2 midterms to study for. I'll be back next weekend for some more 1.2 games (please fking release it before then)!

[Silver]

The posts are becoming too long, and I have another week of studying ahead of me, so I'm only going to respond to a few things (no I'm not ignoring them):
First, you're Annihilation/Power Overwhelming, right? If so,

I'm sorry but I forgot when you earned the right to say that other people take too much offence to other people in this game or the game itself.  Taking the game to seriously and personally is your strongpoint afterall isn't it?  Perhaps though I'm remembering wrong I mean its not like this ever happened?

Lol? How is that taking anything personally? IIRC, I didn't even ban anyone from our server after the scrims. If you haven't noticed, many people enjoy Tremulous drama, including myself. If having fun in that way is the same as taking things too personally, then oh well. Personally, I think entering a thread, saying stupid things, getting called out and responding by saying "YOU'RE A JERK" and banning for it is taking things too personally...same deal with taking offense when someone tells you the truth (that you don't know something, yet). I won't be specific, since every post is starting to go off topic.

I'm assuming the banning for it is related to Ozzy, since I haven't ran a server in over a year and when I did I banned people for a lot different things than forum fights.  God I miss being able to abuse.  Anyway, I think him banning you, would be far more related to his personal issues with you pushing back a lot further than this shit and its his right as server owner to not let people he doesn't like play on his server.  I seriously doubt any of these MG people or norf or anyone of that status is banned from AA, and if they are, well thats just dipshitty on his behalf.  Now, I have my serious issues, such as being overly dramatic(and you can't strike that as it will hypocrise some other things you just recently said), defensive, and immature.  I do not, however, try to assume I know stuff that I don't know.  I'll admit I'm far from perfect and I think thats a huge step towards working something out, is admitting that you don't know everything.  I just unfortunately don't see you, MG, or Ozzy doing that and in the end result we just get a bunch of arrogent people battering over who thinks they know more, more or less, than the actual issue.  Which does result in a lot of bitter presonal attacks.  Sadly, this is happening on all ends and this whole thing has gotten to personal.  Even I made some direct assaults on MG which were probably out of place, but in response a few of their members took it to the next great extreme.  It's almost like an usual political compaign in some of these threads.  Regardless, you have to know you take offense to a lot of things yourself Apple and you tend to dish out as much offensive remarks as you can to get the appropiate response so that you can call the person you're argueing with a crybaby or "easily offended" as your termonology specifies.

Anybody could get sick of something after so many years.  But a lot of people including a lot of your clan members(St Anger, Dracone ect) show no interest in what is currently being called "1.2"  Because its really no major improvements, its some balance changes based mostly off the opinion of one only semi-skilled player.  They want some active servers and possibly new graphics/maps.  I don't see them jumping back into 1.2 with the excpetion for a chance for something different.  Anything gets boring after 3-4 years of palying it.  Yet most of them are still around.  Most of the players that actually quit quit wont come back for 1.2.  They quit because they have lives and they're focused on them.  Most of the people who got popular in the old days were either full grown adults who's lives got to hectic for games, or teenagers who are now focusing on school.  It was un-related to 1.1 sucking.

I don't know who you know, but almost all of the great players I know are either around my age or younger. It also IS related to 1.1 being boring, at least for some of the people you've mentioned; how would you even know about my clan members? None of them really talk to you (they might once in a while, but that's fake).
Yeah, anything gets boring after 3 years. That's why I think it's important to change the game every once in a while, unless the original game is always just extremely fun (it might have been if the community were more skilled, but that's a different argument). Playing against people who always suck just isn't worth it after a while. The only solution, given this community, is a new version.
Besides, I still think 1.2 gameplay >>> 1.1 gameplay, so I don't even know why I'm arguing about 1.1 sucking. 1.1 was fine, but 1.2 is better.

Well, okay, that I can respect.  A lot of people are indeed bored with 1.1 and 1.2 is something semi-ish newish.  Howerver, I don't think most people will be too impressed with the 1.2 changes and I see a lot of people getting more bored with it than they did with 1.1 causing more actual "quits" of the game instead of people just going inactive and focusing on their lives.  I forgot you must be fairly new to this game.  Cataclaw, TerrorEast, Half of MG, Shafe, tjw, and so on.  Those guys, they're just... you know, what 13-15?    Of course a large base percentage of the active good players are going to be young, because our generation is more focused in gaming than the older generation.  These people, however, did not quit/go inactive because they find 1.1 dull, but moreso because they have lives and have focus's and tremulous tends to be a very time consuming game when you get involved.  They're adults with responsibilities so a game must come second hand and in their cases it was probably easier to just step away than anything else.

Just because the lisk can now be used in different ways doesn't mean its equally as hard.  No matter how you look at it, the lisk has been made easier to use, which is not a good thing.  This is shown by how much they had to nerf their hax mara thanks to Anger, ect.  You take an already powerful class, make it easier to use without weakening its basis, and you just turn it into a monster in the hands of an experienced player.  I would love love love to see Ender pop up from the inactive/disappearing land and hop into 1.2 and take over entire games with the new lisk.  They're taking a class that already served an excellent function but took time and patience to master and making them easier, then having to nerf them because of it.  The last thing we need is for every alien to end up functioning like a goon.

You're looking at things individually, instead of holistically . The lisk might be easier to use in terms of 1.1 gameplay, but 1.2 humans are different. I'm still not afraid of basilisks, though they can get me a few times while I'm rusty.

Also, why does everyone keep bringing up the Anger-nerfing-mara story? They aren't perfect; they made the marauder too powerful at one point, and when Anger showed them, they nerfed it. Big deal. If you think something is overpowered now, show them.

The reason we keep bringing up the anger-nerfing-mara story is because it is still relevant.  It is a repetition of what is happening. 

Maruader - anger.

Dretch(nerfed to not hurt rets) - unnamed developer was able to destroy entire bases with 1-2 dretch runs.  Hmm instead of figuring out why dretch is good at that or what is wrong with rets in that case lets just take a fundemental part of the game away by not letting dretches hurt those structures!

Other unbalanced issues.

Luci Cannon
Tyrant Charge

The whole point of balance changes, should be to make some minor adjustments to tweak the gameplay to help the balance.  Bringing adv goon to stage 2 helped there, lowering tyrants hp good job, iffy but probably decently designed new alien regen system.  The most part though, has been radical changes that severly hurt the balance. 

Take some random players, mix up random teams, switch out players/teams, and I guarantee you right now humans would win 75% of games played. 

They took a game that was stacked towards alien in a slight measure, most server tremstats showed a 55-65% alien victory rate on average and made it stack even worse to the other side while trying to create balance.  Then they added radical features such as a one hit kill anything tyrant charge and psychotic turrets that if you end up in their line of fire rip you to shreds but are otherwise useless because they're slower than jessica simpson in general focus and whatever else you can imagine.  How is that helping the game?  In the opinions of almost everyone playing 1.2 so far in the pre-beta release and before that it feels less balanced than it was before.  At least of the people that I have talked to. 

No, because the 52,000 views thread was all MG's Developement Server in which MG consitantly reminded the community that MG != 1.2.  That in the end they were only setting up a path for timbo.  Now all of the sudden MG has become 1.2.  Everytime in the past 2 years we asked about 1.2, we got a blind answer to it.  Then if you tried to ask if MG was going to be 1.2, they kept clarifying that it was just their work at trying to found something for timbo that he may or may not use, and now years later of seperating themselves with the term 1.2 MG all the sudden becomes 1.2.  Thats what no one knew was going on.  We all knew MG was doing stuff, and lots of us did try and put opinions in, but most of us were ignored or feebly noted/rebuted.  No one could of assumed that all the sudden with no pre-warning timbo would stamp MG development 1.2 without any non MG-Dev alterations.  In my opinion the only one doing "real" work for 1.2 all this time was Stanum, and I would love to see more from him.

Admittedly, I didn't read that entire thread, but from what I did read in it over the months, and from what I've heard in-game from several different groups, I've always thought MG == 1.2. Maybe I missed some statements from them.

[/quote]

Several times, MG emphasized that MG Developement != 1.2.  While they did imply, that it was the foundation and a possible direction of 1.2, it was never officially said until very recently that it was indeed 1.2.  I think it was Kelv that said something like this is just MG's attempt at helping towards developemnt of 1.2 and it is not officially 1.2, timbo could scrap everything we've done or just use bits or parts of it.  While everyone obviously knew MG was developing and that it was plausible that it could be 1.2 sometime in the future, no one really expected it as far as I could tell, because MG never tried to make sure we knew that it was going to be.  We also assumed that if it turned the case so, it would be a more subtle introduction.  Such as timbo saying, Hey guys, I like most of what MG did, so I'm giong to take what they've done, and begin official developement of 1.2.  Not hey, after 2 years of MG saying MG != 1.2, Norf is gonna come out and go, We were JK, MG == 1.2 nao gg.

Wrong, 1.2 is not an entire new game.  It's 1.1 with some baseline and serious class modifications, it doesn't take long to learn or adapt to them because in the end for the most part its still the same playing style.  People who were good at Halo 1 were good at Halo 2 when it came out, just because there was some new features like dual weild and the sword didn't mean jack.  The basics were still the basics and it was still the same game style and control basis.  1.2 isn't that much different than 1.1 and it doesn't take that long to get familiar with it.  I personally have played close to 10 hours or so on the development server in the past few months, and before then I played at almost every saturday game.  I put in a few opinions, mostly ingame and never saw any changes from it.  Even though people were sharing those opinions with me.  It felt too much like, "come play and tell us what you think so norf and MG can tell you why what you think is wrong and why we'll just do what we want with it."  I didn't have any fear of it though, because MG kept clarifying that it was not 1.2, that it was just a base developement that could help to found 1.2 one day.  I also got hope for a real 1.2 when we started seeing models and shit from Stanumn.  That shit was epic and I was hoping that that would be 1.2, not MG Dev.

First of all, no offense, but I wouldn't trust suggestions for 1.1 balance changes, much less 1.2 ones, if they came from you. I don't blame them at all. You don't really know what you're talking about when it comes to gameplay.

Second of all, words don't mean much without support. If you think something is unbalanced or stupid, SHOW it to them, rather than write long posts about it. St. Anger was wise enough to do that with the marauder. Since you respect him so much, try to do what he did.

Third, yes. 1.2 is not a new game. Yes, you can apply your old skills to the new version's gameplay. However, that does not necessarily mean you'll be as good as you were in 1.1 after a few days or weeks of playing 1.2. Just because you suck with a new feature at first doesn't mean it's stupid or broken; during my first few games, I couldn't understand why the hell anyone would want to use the tyrant charge attack. Now I can see why (sorry, I like using this example though).

Ok, that's really all I have time for. I have another damn programming project and 2 midterms to study for. I'll be back next weekend for some more 1.2 games (please fking release it before then)!

[/quote]

While you have a right to your opinion about me.  Don't you think devoiding personal assaults is a lot better for producing a solidified unbaised argument to clarify your own thoughts and expressions of the matter?

I also love the concenptual use of "no offense" in the standard "I'm going to tell you not to take any offense to what I'm about to say and then I'm going to say somethign specifically and explicitly designed to be offensive in every manner and mean."  Very mature and productive to our discussion.

I for one, other than in this thread, have not gone out and made long posts about what I find wrong/right with 1.2.  I played the game, made some small posts mostly in response to norf and some others and put some input in game.  All my input however was completely ignored or shot down without any real consideration even though at least 2-4 people in each case seemed to share an appropiate stance.  Such as the dodging that sucks(hey! you mean the dodging you just said a few posts ago that you didn't like?!  No way!, does that mean we're on the same thought train and we shouldn't trust any balance suggestions from you either?), the pyschotic rape all lucifer cannon, and the way to easy to use to 1-hit a chainsuit tyrant charge.

You don't really know what you're talking about when it comes to gameplay.

Ouch man, that really hurts.

I'm sorry, but even if I'm not as skilled as you, I think playing for over 3 years, playing in well over several thousand public matches and several hundred clan matches/pick up games, and building a respectable level of skill from playing with/watching well known players including yourself basis me with some point of understanding of gameplay and how to play the game. 

I would also like to point out that skill != understanding the game.  Which I know that statement makes me minorly hypocritical for the cheap stab I took at norf up above, hehe, but regardless its true.  Do you think most referees of football could play half as good as any of the players?  Of course not, but at the same time some of those players may not understand the game strategy and formats as well as their coach or the ref.  Being able to shoot shit, and understanding the insides of gameplay and the different classes are way two different playing fields. 

I mean, for how long I've actively played this game, I can confidently say I know enough about it to have a reasonable opinion, even if someone like yourself doesn't share that opinion.

I played on the dev games, and I found that if on humans I made it to s3, it was almost enough to end any game by myself with the luci.  That thing is not a joke, and it almost doesn't even take predection skill anymore, you just charge it up and it kills shit.  I am not anger, however, and of course I wont be able to go in and rape everyone with one class, because I haven't given that much dedication to one class ever before like anger has to mara, ender to lisk, apple to lasgun.  I constantly switch around and don't stick with one class to long, because I find the game a lot more fun if I don't just jump straight to goon at 3 evos or I don't instantly grab shotty/md to whore dretches all day.  I like mixing around and working on everything and because of that I don't have any one class that really makes me amazing, I'm just medioker at everything, except for maybe goon, but goon really doesn't take much expertise to master, its a straight forward simple class and once you get chomp range/pounce down you can use it at max effeciency based on your aiming/focus. 

Doesn't this right here -

Ok, that's really all I have time for. I have another damn programming project and 2 midterms to study for. I'll be back next weekend for some more 1.2 games (please fking release it before then)!

Completely support me saying this -

 Most of the people who got popular in the old days were either full grown adults who's lives got to hectic for games, or teenagers who are now focusing on school.

and contradict you saying this -

It also IS related to 1.1 being boring,

Essentially, if 1.1 is boring to you, thats probably because you've been playing it to long and changing it wont necessarily fix it, its a temporary fix.  Rushing to change something isn't always good, change isn't always good.  It may be new and something different, but different is not equal to better, and in my opinion 1.2 is not better.

One last thing at the mention of the people I mentioned and our "fake" conversations.  Anger has never been one to hide his discontent with MG's "1.2."  He spent well over a month MD whoring at my MS server because of low ping/fairly high player base and I had plenty of fairly meaningful conversations with him.  He even supported my AA application saying that I was skilled and had a lot of potential and my personality had improved a lot.  That may not stand anymore, but I have/had been on good terms with St. Anger and Dracone both for large periods of times and have had some fairly reasonable conversations with them.  Dracone is the one who gave me the name Annihilation and supported me when the rest of the community wanted me to just die and go away, after the Beer Garden days.  So get over yourself on that aspect.  I may not be the most liked player in tremulous, but this isn't a high school yearbook contest and I'm not out to impress everybody.  I'm out to play a game and have fun doing it.

Lets please avoid personal insults in any replies we continue to make.  Thanks for your time!

[AppleJuice]

Annihilation/Silver,

I like you now. I mean it.
I enjoyed your post.
Ttyl (next week)!

[temple]

This is too funny.

If Anger had used a MD instead of Mara, would they have nerfed the MD?

LOL, whatever you say, its good for a laugh.

[danmal]

I don't know who you know, but almost all of the great players I know are either around my age or younger.

I honestly can't think of a great player below the age of 16. Most good players seem to be 18 or older tbh.

\
Admittedly, I didn't read that entire thread, but from what I did read in it over the months, and from what I've heard in-game from several different groups, I've always thought MG == 1.2. Maybe I missed some statements from them.

They've said before the MG wasn't 1.2 and was just there to test some shit out. Except now it's apparently. Probably just another case of the devs not being able to communicate with the community.

[Silver]

This is too funny.

If Anger had used a MD instead of Mara, would they have nerfed the MD?

LOL, whatever you say, its good for a laugh.

No, they would of just decreased the dretch hitbox even more.   

[bleach]

Good luck devs!  Thanks for all of the hard work and open door policy!  Keep it up.

[Luigi1]

i like tremulous 

[amz181]

i like tremulous 1.1 

[duck-o-destruction]

If you have such a big problem with 1.2, go host your own master server and continue playing 1.1 .  This discussion really isn't worth the flaming.  The devs are not in any way, shape, or form paid to develop this game.  They are really a group of friends who all have atleast 2 strengths in common: 1, Creativity and 2, coding skills.  While there are being changes made to the game, they aren't all bad.  Ozzy:  you should atleast wait until the final 1.2 release to make your negative decision, which is, by the way, on all acounts biased due to the fact that you own and run the top 1.1 un modded server, and you're pretty afraid that you'll lose a few newcomers to the game because the official servers will be placed at the top. 

Anyways, back on topic: just because your lucijump blocking hovel is non existant in 1.2 doesn't mean it's bad.  Atleast give it a chance.  I've played 3 dozen dev games, and loved every one.  Think about it: the first time you played 1.1, did you know you were going to love it and continue playing it for 2, 3,4, andceven 5 years? I think not.

[David]

Or keep using the current master.  Not like they are going to filter 1.1 servers out.

[KamikOzzy]

Ozzy:  you should atleast wait until the final 1.2 release to make your negative decision, which is, by the way, on all acounts biased due to the fact that you own and run the top 1.1 un modded server, and you're pretty afraid that you'll lose a few newcomers to the game because the official servers will be placed at the top.

This is one retarded post. ^

I cannot host my own master server, I have not the knowledge or the funds.

I should not wait until final, until it's far too late for feedback.

Hell of a lot of assumptions about me. Had you ever talked to me about why I host AA, you would know you are far from the truth. It isn't about my server, it's about Tremulous (un-modded Tremulous, and that means no norf's mod) staying alive as long as I can help it.

Your server is popular but it's the last bastion of a dieing thing. Everywhere else is modded to shit and you've had to whore it up with boxes, share, atcs to keep even that alive. I don't blame you for doing it and I'm glad you did

And all that is fine so long as I'm trying to keep Tremulous away from X, away from uBP, away from Skittles, but when I continue to keep it away from Norfenstein, I become the bad guy.

If AA was not the last of its kind I would never have shelled out all the money and time I've crammed into it. If this was about server popularity I would not have a problem. I would pay for my featured server and run 1.2 and enjoy the same noob count as always. This is about keeping alive a brand of Tremulous which should be immortal.

The first time I played 1.1, YES, Yes I fucking knew I would never leave this game. From the style of community that popped up around servers then, to the class diversity, to the cool secrets and vents in maps, to the Open Source benefit of being able to make anything you want a reality: yes, I knew. I loved it so much I played for 6 months a trackpad, and then a year after that on a pentium 2 PC. The game may not have always felt balanced, but it always felt fun.

Duck: You should at least wait until you know a person before you start making negative decisions about their motives.

[MitSugna]

People don't like 1.2 because it is perfectly balanced

[amz181]

Duck stop being an idiot. Most of us arent flaming, and are merely getting heated (in ozzys case, very heated). You give feedback before a game is released, that was the point of the dev server, you do not wait till it has been released, then say its crap, that will get the game nowhere, to suggest otherwise is quite frankly, idiotic.

And mitsugna, my only reason (well theres actually 2) is that it just isnt fun anymore, if 1.2 is released with the current changes, and is likely to stay that way, i really dont think i would play anymore, the balance changes just suck all the fun out of it. A secondary reason is that its not tremulous anymore, you may argue otherwise, but it is definetly not the trem i know and love.

Also, on a side note, stop acting under the pretence  that ozzy is just afraid his server isnt gonna be as popular. I think we all know that has some truth in it, no matter what ozzy might say, but he is right to be angry at the fact the official servers will inevitably (if you say otherwise, you are delusional) have a severe impact on player ran servers over the long term. AA no matter what your stance towards it, has done quite alot for trem, it would be quite a loss to see it disapear, or any other player ran servers for that matter.

Also, the last thing i want to say, which is by far the most important: Smoking KILLS

[FisherP]

If I can put my 5 cents in. After reading page one, and half of page two I skipped to the end so that I can post a thought or two.

Like others I would have liked minor releases, to fix the vanilla bugs, you know, the serious lack of security, the crash bugs and upgrades to tremded. Let's get serious, there wasn't a whole lot of those in the vanilla code. In those releases I seriously don't think that any additional administration features needed to be added. Just the ones that are important for getting the job done. It would have been nice to have the Trem Dev team consider that 1.2 would take ages to produce, and perhaps they could take a thought for all those players who would join the fun after they released the vanilla and give them something good and secure to play with.

My second thought is that with all the game-play changes, model changes etc is it really fair to call it 1.2, to me it seems more like 2.0. I would think that the scale of changes to trem would imply that it's quite a significant change.

What gets me is not the level of advertisement, because I've been aware that it's happening, it's that it's taken this long and it still isn't released. The reason I say this is due the the huge gaping holes in the vanilla stock. I understand that there's mods of this mod, and people doing their own thing, but it's not the same as coming from the official team. If the dev team did release sub versions to fix the bugs, and improve security I definitely would not feel left out in the cold. The issue with all these mods is that no-one now really knows what tremulous really is, there's so many qvm's and clients that have been built because the dev team have been stuck in this dev cycle that never seems to end.

I understand that everyone has a life, but subversion releases, is that really too much to ask? C'mon seriously?

For the record I don't think you'll see, or have seen, too many people from Australia on the Dev servers since playing at 250ping is really quite impossible unless you want to be relegated to builder all the time. I'm not criticizing just stating facts. I've played one game there I think so I really can't comment on whether or not the changes are good. I can only hope that the rest of you guys that get a better game out of it know what you're talking about. (having said all this I still pwned on SST)

[mooseberry]

Ozzy:  you should atleast wait until the final 1.2 release to make your negative decision, which is, by the way, on all acounts biased due to the fact that you own and run the top 1.1 un modded server, and you're pretty afraid that you'll lose a few newcomers to the game because the official servers will be placed at the top.

This is one retarded post. ^

Hell of a lot of assumptions about me. Had you ever talked to me about why I host AA, you would know you are far from the truth. It isn't about my server, it's about Tremulous (un-modded Tremulous, and that means no norf's mod) staying alive as long as I can help it.

And therefore you don't wish to see players leaving your server and missing out on old Tremulous.

...Just saying...

Maybe it's really for "Tremulous (un-modded Tremulous, and that means no norf's mod) staying alive as long as I can help it." But since you yourself have said AA is "the last of its kind" that just traslates to your own server.

I don't disagree with your actions, I'd like 1.1 to still hang around, but you seem to flame Duck for being wrong and than prove he was right.

[Plague Bringer]

I don't disagree with your actions, I'd like 1.1 to still hang around, but you seem to flame Duck for being wrong and than almost prove he was right.

"Almost" ain't worth shit 'round these parts.

[mooseberry]

I don't disagree with your actions, I'd like 1.1 to still hang around, but you seem to flame Duck for being wrong and than almost prove he was right.

"Almost" ain't worth shit 'round these parts.

I mean't almost as in basically, as in, not all of what he said pertained to that point of Duck's and some was slighlty varied because of different points of views, but I got rid of that extra word for you because I know how hard it can be to understand words with more than four or five letters.

[Plague Bringer]

I meant almost as in basically, as in, not all of what he said pertained to that point of Duck's and some was slightly varied because of different points of views, but I got rid of that extra word for you because I know how hard it can be to understand words with more than four or five letters.

You needn't instigate petty flame wars by insinuating that my brain lacks the capacity for understanding medium to long words. In fact, my vocabulary includes a plethora of words that are much, much longer than five letters (and I think my use of a few of these has certainly demonstrated my capacity for big words).

Anyway, anyone with half a brain can probably understand that, yes, while Ozzy may loose players, he doesn't give a fuck. He wants to keep 1.1 alive, be it with his own server or by assisting the smooth operation of another. It's not about his server, it's about his 1.1 server.

[mooseberry]

It's not about his server, it's about his 1.1 server.

And that is exactly what I said earlier.  Duck may have said it negatively and gotten his reason for wanting his server to stay at the top but he was still right. I don't see why you think you need to go and defend Ozzy. I didn't critizing him in any way, I simply pointed out the way he worded his post made him sound hypocritical. You weren't involved in something that should have been one post.

[Timbo]

Just for the record, no one is planning or talking about filtering 1.1 servers out of the master server list, so you'll be able to continue playing 1.1 no matter what. What I'm getting at is that if 1.1 servers are popular enough, they will hang around. In this way, it's pretty silly to be getting too upset about the 1.2 game play changes as if it does turn out that it's genuinely unpopular, no one will play it. Democracy in action . Regardless of what happens you can still play whichever version you like.

[Winnie the Pooh]

The beauty of free choice!

[daenyth]

I'd just like to put in here that I really like the 1.2 stuff so far, and I'm really psyched about the upcoming release. It's about time.

I find that the dev games are the most fun I have when I play trem, and if I could, I'd play them exclusively. The new standard in 1.1 gameplay (X, crap mods, and yes, AA as well) are fucking mind-numbing and boring. There is little strategy. spawn-rush-die spawn-rush-die spawn-camp-die until sd where it changes into spawn-camp-sd-aliens win. Some servers are worse than others, and some are better. Some of the crappy mod servers are more fun in that regard. Veering a little off topic, I think it's mostly the fault of share. I wish I could kill share entirely so that it never got included in anything, it murders the gameplay.

Regarding the whole "MG != 1.2" thing, I have always interpreted it from the start as "We are testing these changes in the hopes that they will be accepted as 1.2. It's not 1.2 right now, since no developer has stated that it will be. We hope it will be 1.2". You're acting like going from that to "OK, one of the devs approved this as 1.2" is unreasonable.

[StevenM]

Just for the love of god, create a damn tutorial video, so these fucking noobs know how to use the armoury. Thats all you honestly needed to do, to balance this damn game. Teach people how to play properly via a 20 min tutorial.

[jal]

What's happening to this comunity? After many years we're finally close to get the new version and all I see is whine and more whine. There are aspects of 1.2 I like more and less, but they are just details. All I really want is it released for once!

[MitSugna]

side effects of space-time travel

[amz181]

Just for the record, no one is planning or talking about filtering 1.1 servers out of the master server list, so you'll be able to continue playing 1.1 no matter what. What I'm getting at is that if 1.1 servers are popular enough, they will hang around. In this way, it's pretty silly to be getting too upset about the 1.2 game play changes as if it does turn out that it's genuinely unpopular, no one will play it. Democracy in action . Regardless of what happens you can still play whichever version you like.

1.1 servers with 1.2 models? or 1.2 and 1.1.

Because if it the second, then 1.1 servers will clearly die out.