Tremulous Forum
General => Official Servers => Topic started by: StevenM on February 21, 2010, 12:08:40 am
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I'm creating this thread for those of you who have played games where admins have been present, but have done nothing to stop deconners, tkers, basenaders, and other stupidity.
I will start: Today john, or TJW deconned the rc without warning and proceeded to move it. A number of us asked him where it was, why he moved it etc. Yet he didnt respond. Anyways I believe he did this twice, on the previous map aswell, ATCS. But i cant be sure.
This is annoying enough coming from a noob. But from an admin, come on fuck.
You should really think hard about who is given admin. Dont just give it to people who you associate with, but people who are active, dont abuse and will do their duties as admins.
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they cant do anything much
TKers: well those you COULD kick so yeh those ppl you can
BaseNaders: cant do anything other then ban damage done and cant be repaired w/out revert its gg
Deconners: see above one
yeh 1.2 official server seems to have some bad admins dont see much action happening whatsoever and 1 game had 1 admin i wont name TK forward repeaters luckily another admin was there to kick him
if tjw was moving though i dont see an issue with that event he couldve told you where tho so you can defend/help build etc hopefully he wasn't purposely ruining the game
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I'm creating this thread for those of you who have played games where admins have been present, but have done nothing to stop deconners, tkers, basenaders, and other stupidity.
I will start: Today john, or TJW deconned the rc without warning and proceeded to move it. A number of us asked him where it was, why he moved it etc. Yet he didnt respond. Anyways I believe he did this twice, on the previous map aswell, ATCS. But i cant be sure.
This is annoying enough coming from a noob. But from an admin, come on fuck.
You should really think hard about who is given admin. Dont just give it to people who you associate with, but people who are active, dont abuse and will do their duties as admins.
john (tjw's son) is about 7 or 8 iirc.
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they cant do anything much
TKers: well those you COULD kick so yeh those ppl you can
BaseNaders: cant do anything other then ban damage done and cant be repaired w/out revert its gg
Deconners: see above one
yeh 1.2 official server seems to have some bad admins dont see much action happening whatsoever and 1 game had 1 admin i wont name TK forward repeaters luckily another admin was there to kick him
if tjw was moving though i dont see an issue with that event he couldve told you where tho so you can defend/help build etc hopefully he wasn't purposely ruining the game
Which begs the question: why no revert?
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Which begs the question: why no revert?
Because the code's not ready for trunk yet. In progress.
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The US GPP server lacks what the EU GPP server does not:
Actively administrating administrators.
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So if we are talking about Admin system and actively administrating administators
What's the point of !passvote? I can't really find any use for this command to mantain peace on the server.
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Uh, actually I was there, and specing john. He almost immediately marked the Rc, ran to the lava room and started building it. Incidently, since you may not know, the base he was attempting is a very strong base for humans on ancient remains, versus the default human base which is horrid. Its also a very hard move later in the game, particularly against experienced aliens who know not to let humans move there. Sadly a goon caught up with him and the move ended badly. I give him points for trying though.
He knew what he was building and where, and his idea was very solid, so no I won't be denybuilding him. If anyone would have spawned a ckit and built a repeater in base the humans would have been ok. Sadly it didn't appear that anyone did.
No, I for one won't be punishing every good player who tries for a first minute base move to a really hard but really strong location. He made a good attempt in the only moment he would have had the chance (against experienced players). Perhaps he should have said something, and perhaps we should be more forgiving.
FWIW, I didn't do listplayers till people started complaining, then I saw that it was actually tjw. If that was his son, then his son may be one hell of a wicked builder.
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The US GPP server lacks what the EU GPP server does not:
Actively administrating administrators.
Then why not make the active EU GPP server admins admins on the US GPP server. Even europeans play on the US GPP server when the EU GPP server is empty.
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I think they should be, but it's more a technical and logistical problem.
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Or how about we put some faith in the server regulars, and let one or two be admins...? There are plenty who could at least keep an eye on the nawbs.
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There are some inactive admins, or some who don't do anything when somethings going down.. We'll look out for them..
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An Admin application spot would be nice...
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Let's try a compliment sandwich:
You guys suck less dick than paris hilton.
{/compliment]
We saw this inactive admin bs coming.
If John is 8, TJW is smart enough to set up a separate guid for him to play on, there shouldn't be an 8 year old running around with admin flags. Hell even my brother didn't play with admin flags on AA.
[compliment]
You must be doing something right to have all the complaints about the way things are ran, but people are still leaving 1.1 left and right.
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Even this is not deconner case, you see that "mark" system will solve nothing about deconners.
I played 1.2 very small amount of time (about one night) but even with that I atleast twice noticed this: I (human) comming back to base, selling weapon to arm, have blaster, choosing new weapon and nothing happen. Then I see: armoury disappeared. I am with blaster in wasteland. This must be more funny with battlesuit :)
That is only my note. This can be hopefully changed in server settings and I will be glad if devs will fix atleast ass attack. Suggesting something what really can do something against deconners (login system) is hopeless, even 1.2 move is best time.
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This is indeed a deconning incident. He didn't fulfill the credentials of a certified Tremulous Builder.
Reactor movement requirements:
1) Adv./Ckit
2) Marked buildable.
3) Chosen place for replacing Buildable.
4) Move to chosen area, require backup from one player.
5) Tell entire team you are about to move Reactor to (location) backup required.
6) proceed with building, while timer is set tell team to make repeater ready in original base until able to be marked and moved for future base.
I suck at building and even I know how to build. Knowing WHERE to build and HOW to build are two different things. I say in this situation I would have deny builded him a game and gave him a long lecture on how to build.
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Or how about we put some faith in the server regulars, and let one or two be admins...? There are plenty who could at least keep an eye on the nawbs.
I believe our policy is to hand out level 3s to people we think can handle it and see what happens, which is what I've started doing. And recently I promoted a few existing 3s to level 4. It would be nice if adminship were automatically shared across the servers.
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I believe our policy is to hand out level 3s to people we think can handle it and see what happens, which is what I've started doing. And recently I promoted a few existing 3s to level 4. It would be nice if adminship were automatically shared across the servers.
Awesome.
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Or how about we put some faith in the server regulars, and let one or two be admins...? There are plenty who could at least keep an eye on the nawbs.
I believe our policy is to hand out level 3s to people we think can handle it and see what happens, which is what I've started doing. And recently I promoted a few existing 3s to level 4. It would be nice if adminship were automatically shared across the servers.
You could split off the bans (sed/awk/gawk/whatever) and do a "diff" on the part remaining with the admins. Then combine and rsync from server to server. Then fill in the local bans again.
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Or how about we put some faith in the server regulars, and let one or two be admins...? There are plenty who could at least keep an eye on the nawbs.
I believe our policy is to hand out level 3s to people we think can handle it and see what happens, which is what I've started doing. And recently I promoted a few existing 3s to level 4. It would be nice if adminship were automatically shared across the servers.
You could split off the bans (sed/awk/gawk/whatever) and do a "diff" on the part remaining with the admins. Then combine and rsync from server to server. Then fill in the local bans again.
the admins guid's will change
id assume all current admins have cl_guidservuniq to 1 if not if i was the devs id consider demoting them now
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Or how about we put some faith in the server regulars, and let one or two be admins...? There are plenty who could at least keep an eye on the nawbs.
I believe our policy is to hand out level 3s to people we think can handle it and see what happens, which is what I've started doing. And recently I promoted a few existing 3s to level 4. It would be nice if adminship were automatically shared across the servers.
You could split off the bans (sed/awk/gawk/whatever) and do a "diff" on the part remaining with the admins. Then combine and rsync from server to server. Then fill in the local bans again.
the admins guid's will change
id assume all current admins have cl_guidservuniq to 1 if not if i was the devs id consider demoting them now
Besides, they don't deserve it if they don't go on to that server anyways.
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Besides, they don't deserve it if they don't go on to that server anyways.
That's an... odd thing to say. It's a responsibility, not a reward, and they should have it because they're responsible people. So I don't see what sense it makes to say someone can be responsible in one place but not another.
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I think what mooseberry means is to let the people who want administration on both servers make their own efforts to obtain it, and thus treat it like a special case.
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Besides, they don't deserve it if they don't go on to that server anyways.
That's an... odd thing to say. It's a responsibility, not a reward, and they should have it because they're responsible people. So I don't see what sense it makes to say someone can be responsible in one place but not another.
All I'm saying is if they can't spend enough time on a server to at least obtain adminship, let alone prove they are good at admin, than they probably shouldn't be an admin on that server. It seems pretty straightforward to me.
Sure an admin who is good on one server might be good on another, but that doesn't mean a server owner should add everyone they've ever seen in Tremulous who's been a good admin as an admin on their server. If that person doesn't actually spend time being an admin on a specific server, than it seems logical that they won't be admin on that specific server.
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I think what mooseberry means is to let the people who want administration on both servers make their own efforts to obtain it, and thus treat it like a special case.
And I think what Norf means is that effort to obtain admin is counterproductive - ask and ye shall be denied.
Since both official servers are the responsibility of the same people (the devs), it would make sense to have admin assignments synchronized across them. There is no particular harm if someone with admin on the official servers usually plays on only one of them.
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Right but since you are not automatically given permission for both servers, it would stand to reason that if you've been entrusted with adminship for one server, you would be given adminship for the other if you made efforts to obtain it.
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I think I mean what I said, and I have a hunch Norf meant what he said. Not some other ideas other people seem to be getting.
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Sigh ... sardony is wasted on the Internet.
Everyone can read the black-letter text of what was written, and everyone can put their own (not the author's) interpretation on it. That is an axiom and should be universally understood.
Your actual words were:All I'm saying is if they can't spend enough time on a server to at least obtain adminship, let alone prove they are good at admin, than they probably shouldn't be an admin on that server. It seems pretty straightforward to me.
in response tothey should have it because they're responsible people.
*I'm* saying that in my opinion you are wrong and Norf is right.
Is that quite clear? And yet, isn't that a pedantic and artless way of putting it? I prefer the other way.
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All I'm saying is if they can't spend enough time on a server to at least obtain adminship, let alone prove they are good at admin, than they probably shouldn't be an admin on that server. It seems pretty straightforward to me.
They obtain it by one of us thinking they're responsible enough to handle it, and then us giving it to them. I don't know why you think time should have anything to do with it. It's not an RPG where you have to grind on one instance in order to level up.
Dealing with teamkillers, griefers, and assholes is a chore. If a person wants to do it -- instead of having others handle it so they can actually play the game -- then they're probably not suited for the job.
Sure an admin who is good on one server might be good on another, but that doesn't mean a server owner should add everyone they've ever seen in Tremulous who's been a good admin as an admin on their server. If that person doesn't actually spend time being an admin on a specific server, than it seems logical that they won't be admin on that specific server.
It seems logical to me that you would add all the people you trust are good admins. The more admins there are the less likely the server will be without one when it's needed.
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All I'm saying is if they can't spend enough time on a server to at least obtain adminship, let alone prove they are good at admin, than they probably shouldn't be an admin on that server. It seems pretty straightforward to me.
They obtain it by one of us thinking they're responsible enough to handle it, and then us giving it to them. I don't know why you think time should have anything to do with it. It's not an RPG where you have to grind on one instance in order to level up.
Dealing with teamkillers, griefers, and assholes is a chore. If a person wants to do it -- instead of having others handle it so they can actually play the game -- then they're probably not suited for the job.
Sure an admin who is good on one server might be good on another, but that doesn't mean a server owner should add everyone they've ever seen in Tremulous who's been a good admin as an admin on their server. If that person doesn't actually spend time being an admin on a specific server, than it seems logical that they won't be admin on that specific server.
It seems logical to me that you would add all the people you trust are good admins. The more admins there are the less likely the server will be without one when it's needed.
Well I see what you're saying, and this is really a personal thing, I don't believe there's a right or a wrong. I just think admins need to prove that they are spending time doing their responsibilites in order to obtain and keep their powers, besides just being trustworthy, while that does not seem as important to you. Luckily we are not both trying to appoint admins on the same server, and as this is getting a bit off topic, unless you have anything else to say, I figure we can agree our opinions are different.
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All I'm saying is if they can't spend enough time on a server to at least obtain adminship, let alone prove they are good at admin, than they probably shouldn't be an admin on that server. It seems pretty straightforward to me.
They obtain it by one of us thinking they're responsible enough to handle it, and then us giving it to them. I don't know why you think time should have anything to do with it. It's not an RPG where you have to grind on one instance in order to level up.
Dealing with teamkillers, griefers, and assholes is a chore. If a person wants to do it -- instead of having others handle it so they can actually play the game -- then they're probably not suited for the job.
Woah woah woah.. that is very backwards thinking. While adminning is a chore, you want people who are not going to ignore their duties simply because they want to keep playing. At AA I've stopped my own entertainment of the game dozens of times to spec a potential botter or to check and see if someone is intentionally tking etc etc. An admin has to be very capable of following whats going on all around them including both teams and keeping an eye out for greifers/deconners and the likes. Now someone who wants admin generally doesn't make a good admin, but a person who wants an admin's responsibilities is a whole different story. Wanting to keep the server playable for yourself and others is a good thing.
Treating admin so lax is not a good idea. "I think A is trustable cause he's been my friend for a while or he's in MG so what the hell."
Where as the correct scenario is "I think B would make a good admin because he's on often, competent, fast to react to deconners and the likes with kick votes, knows the scenario fully before making any decisive action, and is generally level headed."
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Holy-shit-once-in-a-trem-time-experience:
I totally agree with Silver. ;-)
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Just tell me I have to ban 10 people per month to remain administrator and I will do so.
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There are two different schools of thought:
- Give adminlevels to all the good folks, with higher levels for the goodest folks
- Try to get more control by having a few very active admins
I have to agree with norf and lava and go for the first option. The more people you have keeping an eye out the better. The system becomes self-regulatory. Rather than trying to individually block all the retards it's more efficient to control the admins. With half the server regulars having level three you will eliminate most of that stopped my own entertainment of the game dozens of times to spec a potential botter or to check and see if someone is intentionally tking etc etc.
Giving someone the ability to remove destructive players also gives them a strong incentive to play on that server. ;)
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Which is what has been happening.
Many of the active players are level 3s, there are usually several admins on anytime the server is populated, and griefing is generally dealt with pretty well. But more important, having several admins online builds consensus and consistency - seeing how a senior admin handles things provides examples for the juniors. (Not to mention the supervision effect - any junior admin tempted to abuse will think twice when he knows others are watching.)
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There are two different schools of thought:
- Give adminlevels to all the good folks, with higher levels for the goodest folks
- Try to get more control by having a few very active admins
I have to agree with norf and lava and go for the first option. The more people you have keeping an eye out the better. The system becomes self-regulatory. Rather than trying to individually block all the retards it's more efficient to control the admins. With half the server regulars having level three you will eliminate most of that stopped my own entertainment of the game dozens of times to spec a potential botter or to check and see if someone is intentionally tking etc etc.
Giving someone the ability to remove destructive players also gives them a strong incentive to play on that server. ;)
I'm not saying you shouldn't have a healthy amount of active admins. AA has over 50 admins. I'm just saying you can't just give admin to regulars because they're your friends. More so they have to be people you trust to do the job(not just people you generally like)
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I'm not saying you shouldn't have a healthy amount of active admins. AA has over 50 admins. I'm just saying you can't just give admin to regulars because they're your friends. More so they have to be people you trust to do the job(not just people you generally like)
The problem with this point is that you generally trust your friends or people you like, otherwise they wouldn't be your friend or a person you like.
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I think he meant that it's not bad to give admin level to a friend until you know he will do his job. I mean you certainly have a friend that you like, but you know he wont be good admin because he's really "emotional" and easily gets pissed off.
I believe that if a friend comes to you and ask to use your power because "I'm your friend dud" you shouldn't do that unless there's a good reason to do so (separate "business" from private life). If he gets mad and tell you that he hates you, then he's not a friend.
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Please do not mention shitholes like AA when trying to get a point across.
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snip
I'm not saying you shouldn't have a healthy amount of active admins. AA has over 50 admins. I'm just saying you can't just give admin to regulars because they're your friends. More so they have to be people you trust to do the job(not just people you generally like)
Why not?
-!setlevel is not permanent
-Abuse will happen but you will have a much more robust system to deal with all levels of abuse.
-By being a control-freak you severely increase your own stress levels
You give out low admin levels generously and see who makes the cut. Promote the ones who do a good job and restrict the highest level of administration to the top tier of trustees. It needs to be noted that what some whiney bitches see as abusive is just a no-bullshit-policy. If someone is out of order with the server policy you bump them down it's as simple as that.
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snip
I'm not saying you shouldn't have a healthy amount of active admins. AA has over 50 admins. I'm just saying you can't just give admin to regulars because they're your friends. More so they have to be people you trust to do the job(not just people you generally like)
Why not?
-!setlevel is not permanent
-Abuse will happen but you will have a much more robust system to deal with all levels of abuse.
-By being a control-freak you severely increase your own stress levels
You give out low admin levels generously and see who makes the cut. Promote the ones who do a good job and restrict the highest level of administration to the top tier of trustees. It needs to be noted that what some whiney bitches see as abusive is just a no-bullshit-policy. If someone is out of order with the server policy you bump them down it's as simple as that.
Starting out with low levels makes sense in some aspect, but trust me that can be more hassle than it's worth. You know how many complaints I get about a putteam or a mute daily? The devs shouldn't do that if they aren't willing to deal with the hassle(which they aren't).
@ Lavacroft, AA has changed a lot over the past few months. The admin list has been cleaned up big time and people aren't allowed to do whatever the fuck they want. Your opinion on the server is yours to keep but I think it's rather un-educated. The only issue I could see you having is that it runs ATCS almost solely. The server regulars enjoy the map, it's balanced, and it really helps with the people who don't know how to turn auto_download on in 1.1. If your sole issue is the maps it runs, that's kind of sad. But it's your opinion and you're free to have it. Enjoy playing in shithol.. I mean satgnu!(you should delete your account again you weren't missed)
Equil, I have a lot of friends I don't trust with admin and vice versa. I know Ozzy was always hesitant to give me admin when he ran AA and for good reason. I realize emotional and temper mental. That's why I picked a lot of high level admins that I trust more than myself - flux, tbob, einstein, paradinas, and celestial rage to do the job of monitoring lower admins and most of the server moderating for me.
I agree that having a lot of low level admins is a good thing and progressively promoting or demoting based on performance is also good as well. That you can't truly know how everyone will perform and so you just have to take chances. I just think activity, trust, and common sense are far more important features to consider for an admin than general likability and your taste of their personality.
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I've said all I wanted to say on the 1.2 admin system but lava was definitely missed <3.
Moar drama pleaaase!
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@Silver: Trying to explain real democracy to a
Chinese Burmese person by using Somalia as an example is stupid. Also, SatGNU-Tremulous is dead, long live MEGAPROCYON! Get with the times!
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@Silver: Trying to explain real democracy to a Chinese Burmese person by using Somalia as an example is stupid. Also, SatGNU-Tremulous is dead, long live MEGAPROCYON! Get with the times!
who is this kid?
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So i've heard that it was actually TJW's kid deconning lol.
My apologies TJW, should've figured that one out. sorry.
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does tjw have 2 kids? ethan and john? ethan loves to bleed.