Tremulous Forum
General => Feedback => Topic started by: ziplocpeople on March 19, 2011, 05:27:43 am
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It's been a long time since the last major GPP Phase has been made, for the most part the last major phase to significantly change the balance (I'm referring to combat changes, not the less dramatic and exciting phase 6 & 7 releases which mostly fixed bugs, I'm not saying that they don't matter, they just aren't all that relevant to what I'm going to bring up.) The point being is that a lot of time has gone by, a lot of time for seeing exactly what's wrong and what's right- The things that are "wrong" should be examined for possible fixes. As an avid 1.2 supporter, I personally believe that most things are right, but there's some issues that leave me grinding my teeth at times.
Now let's prioritize, what's really wrong, and what's kinda/maybe wrong.
Major Offenders:
The Dragoon:
When it comes down to it, the new Dragoon is very quirky to say the least. The new pounce specifically is a major issue, take a quick look at tremstats and you'll see that the majority of players have more kills with pounce than slash. This isn't inherently an issue, just a statistic, what is an issue is how it works out in-game. The pounce doesn't make slashing redundant, it makes it nearly pointless with very little room for practical use. Aside from slash, all too often can someone spam pounce and kill someone wearing light armor + the helmet in less than 3 seconds, no matter how well they can dance, or how much they dodge. You can also kill the Reactor faster by sitting on top of it pounce spamming, than simply slashing- not only does this not make any sense (magikarp's splash attack should do more damage,) but it's a great example of "what's wrong." Another note, it's fairly often that I pounce someone, and due to the knockback the human is out of slashing distance, this just encourages the spam even more.
Possible solutions: I've been thinking (and you guys really should too, the more people coming up with ideas, the more likely we are to find one that's "right.")
1) Lower the pounce damage, give the slash a slight buff. -Lowering the damage would not only make spamming it less of a problem, but it would also make the knockback less of a problem as well (by lowering it,) giving a slightly buffed slash a new place in this world. A possible problem with this being that it could make light armor in stage 1 pointless, as pounce likely wouldn't kill them in one hit.
2) Lower the pounce range, lower the pounce knockback, and give the slash a slight buff. -This would make the pounce more difficult to spam, and once again give slash a place in the world. Problems? Well, it wouldn't fix spamming it against buildings, but I suppose increasing the delay between pounces could fix this, but possibly bring other issues.
3) Increase pounce range, lower pounce damage, once again buff slash. -I personally don't like this idea, but thought it'd be fair to mention. Too much like 1.1 goon imo, but it would fix the problems present in 1.2.
4) You guys come up with more ideas, if you wish.
*Personally, I think the 1.1 and 1.2 Dragoon are pretty impossible to compare, they're very different animals now- but that's not exactly the issue here.
The Basilisk:
The 1.1 Basilisk was almost completely inaccessible to newbies, so I completely understand the need to buff it, but as it stands now the changes are more than overkill. The main issue being the reversal of the slash and grab ranges, which indeed does make it accessible to newbies, but in the hands of anyone who isn't completely inept (exaggerating a little bit here, the little bit is the sad part) it can become annoyingly overpowered. I'd also like to give a friendly reminder that the basilisk is worth 1 frag, with this value there isn't much of an excuse for them to be this deadly/boring to play as. I know I'm not exactly the average player, but the fact of the matter is that I can get 9 frags with a basi (in many cases) faster than I can with any other class. One fun experience I had was in a 1v1, I had 150 ping and turned my cg_unlagged off from the start- I played as a basi the entire time (save for when I didn't have any frags) and still won (Okay, yeah this isn't the ideal testing spot for a basi, as humans should attack in groups but still.) IMO, the basi is absolutely no fun, and for the average player usually annoyingly difficult to deal with (or in some cases, pretty impossible.) Oh, also it really doesn't make sense that you can grab something, but be completely unable to slash it.
Possible solutions: Honestly, I don't see too many options here, maybe you guys can come up with more.
1) Average the grab and slash ranges, providing a nice medium. -Well, I personally like this idea- It would still be newbie accessible, but at the same time grab wouldn't be so overkill. Also, this would increase the effective range where you can grab and slash at once, making it easier to move around the target (say, if you're being shot at) while still doing damage. So in many respects it's not a complete nerf, more of a re-balance.
2) Well, uh, tinker with the values some, find the golden spot for each, we certainly don't have it now.
3) You decide.
*EDIT: Keep in mind the Basilisk in 1.2 is intended to be a support class, not a one man army.
Regular offenders: Not quite as annoying as the above.
Dodge:
Don't get me wrong, I don't have an issue with there being a dodge command. Hell, I use it quite a bit mixed in with my dancing, it's just abused a bit. There's really nothing more annoying than that one guy who backpedal-dodges constantly to the point where he's impossible to kill.
Solutions:
1) Make back-dodging less effective. -Well, this makes sense logically too, I mean can you jump backwards as far/fast as you can to the side?
2) Make dodging cost more energy. -This could fix the spamming issue, but penalizes more legitimate uses of it. Could make dancing popular again though.
3) Make dodging have a cool-down timer. -Pretty much the same comment as idea #2
4) If changes to the Dragoon get rid of the need for it, then remove it. -Ehh, dunno about that. I can do without, not so sure about newbies. Besides, it gets me down slopes/stairs faster than running.
Jetpack: Oh what better fits the definition of love-hate. It's great for getting places, it's easy to stay out of harms way... Sometimes a bit too easy depending on the map. There's plenty of ideas on the forums for this already, no need to be redundant, I'm already fairly certain that they won't be implemented.
Minor/Maybe offenders: Stuff that either doesn't matter that much, or doesn't matter to many.
Lasgun/Rifle: Maybe offender.
When it comes down to it, the lasgun is a redundancy. It's like the rifle, without the spread, and it costs 250 credits... Plus armor. What I'm getting at is that for the average person there's little incentive to use the lasgun, the rifle is a perfectly decent gun, so why pay 250 credits for something only marginally better?
Solutions:
Eh, just one idea really: Lower the price to 200 (Maybe less?), decrease damage to 8, increase speed to compensate. -Making it cheaper increases incentive to buy it, the damage and speed would be changed to reflect the price change, it's as simple as that.
Marauder: Maybe offender.
I'm only putting this in "maybe" because it's debatable. It's just that unless the humans have a really good builder (which realistically, when 1.2 is released and more players migrate to it, good builders will become harder to come by.) A human stage 1 or 2 base can be destroyed in a very short period of time, or even a stage 3 base that just plain isn't perfect enough. Debatably, zap is overpowered, and honestly I'm still not sure where I stand on this issue. If you have any ideas for improving it, go ahead and post below.
Hovel: Minor offender.
Grangers need homes too. Also, there's a hovel icon for a reason. Grangers put it there because they want their home back.
Solutions:
1) give it back.
2) Bring it back, shorten it (to the point where a human could jump on it,) keep the limit of 1, make it cost 8 bp, and make the spikes do damage. -I don't see anything wrong with this, but maybe I'm just too much of a granger fan. Yeah, probably that.
The Mysterious Beyond: Any other creative solutions to the above? Thought of another problem that I didn't list? Go ahead, post below. No, really. Post below. Even though I just know this will turn into a flamewar in no time, figured I'd at least make my voice heard. Kudos to anyone who reads this text.
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I have a few suggestions but not enough to make a whole new thread about them, so I'll stick them here. Maybe F50 can play around with them on his mod server if he has some spare time to code them.
Dragoon pounce: The dragoon gets on top of something, and then repeatedly flops around in place and somehow this damages it. Alternatively, it flops into you and somehow damages you. I really don't understand this. How about:
- Option A: Have the pounce do damage solely based off velocity. No velocity, no damage. Jump from the other side of the map and crash into something and a lot of damage. Then you have to chomp.
- Option B: Require the pounce to travel a certain distance before it can do its preset damage.
Lasgun: It's very reliable, but it's unimaginably bland. As Medi mentioned, the cost of 250 doesn't factor in the requirement of armor, because anything beyond the free rifle gives a very strong incentive to wear something. Also, the lack of reload doesn't change things, because someone properly dodging doesn't have to worry about the reload on another weapon. Personally I'd love to see it as some sort of beam gun, but since that will likely never be implemented, I'd rather see it do higher damage with a lower repeat rate and a smaller clip size. That way it fills the niche between the fast weapons with low damage and the slow weapons with huge damage. A hitscan projectile-less weapon with average damage and average repeat. We don't have that.
Flamer: Holy crap this weapon is underused now. Everyone used to love it, but now it doesn't really do anything. On Niveus (http://stats.tremulous.net/tremstats/us1/map_details.php?map_id=1), teslas have killed more things than flamer direct hits, and tyrants have crushed more than flamer splashes. How about increasing the range on it while keeping the current changes done to it in GPP? Real flamethrowers go out much further, anyway. Or make it cost less.
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Dragoon: YES YES YES.
but there are (debatable) better ways to fix it.
Basilisk:
Meh.
Dodge: NO.
It COULD be a issue in S2 with a nerfed goon, but the best fix for that (when good is nerfed) is make dodge move dramatically less distance but have its speed dramatically buffed.
Lassgun: outright FAIL, I'm not going to bother explaining this one as there will MAY be people heavily trolling you for not understanding (Thus making you retarded n00b) how the lassgun is one of if not the best gun in the game.
IMO: the Pulse rifle is the one who needs help, Its a lassgun; with a reload; that fires projectiles; only doing more damage then the lassgun because it shoots faster.
Rifle: Debatable, Rifle maintains useful at any stage but dretch doesn't.
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Lassgun: outright FAIL, I'm not going to bother explaining this one as there will MAY be people heavily trolling you for not understanding (Thus making you retarded n00b) how the lassgun is one of if not the best gun in the game.
I'm not saying it's a bad gun, but in the hands of a "retarded n00b" 250 credits is too much to pay for a mildly upgraded rifle. Also, if you aren't going to explain something to me, next time do a better job not explaining.
Rifle: Debatable, Rifle maintains useful at any stage but dretch doesn't.
Like I said, rifle's a good weapon. At 250 credits + armor most people would rather save those credits for something better, like that pulse rifle you seem to hate. Oh, and in that case wouldn't my idea make the pulse rifle less redundant?
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make dodge move dramatically less distance but have its speed dramatically buffed
So basically, just like pressing A, S, or D?
How dramatic are we talking? Twilight-level or Greek tragedy-level?
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I'm not saying it's a bad gun, but in the hands of a "retarded n00b" 250 credits is too much to pay for a mildly upgraded rifle. Also, if you aren't going to explain something to me, next time do a better job not explaining.
Like I said, rifle's a good weapon. At 250 credits + armor most people would rather save those credits for something better, like that pulse rifle you seem to hate. Oh, and in that case wouldn't my idea make the pulse rifle less redundant?
I was saying i wasn't going to explain why the lassgun is better then the rifle, also i meant they would call you a "retarded n00b" not that i am.
But I'll guess explain anyway.
the rifle may have a higher Dps from its RoF but the lassgun has more damage per shot.
combined with never reloading and perfect accuracy means you can spray at any range, and with reasonalbe aim means it can kill things in less time with less ammo.
having a assload of ammo and being able to reload at the RC is a MASSIVE advantage over the rifle.
rifle vs lassgun is like AK vs M16.
ones dirt cheap and can crank out the damage but the other is more efficient in almost every aspect.
So basically, just like pressing A, S, or D?
How dramatic are we talking? Twilight-level or Greek tragedy-level?
"a dramatic Family Guy vs Simpsons vs King of the Hill flame war"
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Goon: yeah, although slash doesn't need a damage buff. Just a minor range and repeat buff.
Basi: I think the happy medium would be appropriate to start with.
Dodge: I don't find dodge an issue. It's rather predictable, and with goon pounce, you can easily pounce into range to chomp.
Jetpack: I would prefer to leave it as it is. If someone is jetcamping, it's one less defender.
Mara: Like it as it is. It isn't amazingly stacked. Anyone who can dodge remotely well can often take out the average mara with minimal armor.
The lasgun (I feel) is a happy medium between the rifle and the chaingun. It allows you to have the accuracy (better, actually) of a rifle without having to reload. Therefore, I think it is appropriately price, and overwhelmingly more useful than the rifle.
Hovel: Meh, I don't care either way.
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"a dramatic Family Guy vs Simpsons vs King of the Hill flame war"
Thats not even an argument man, Simpsons win by a landslide.
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I was saying i wasn't going to explain why the lassgun is better then the rifle, also i meant they would call you a "retarded n00b" not that i am.
But I'll guess explain anyway.
the rifle may have a higher Dps from its RoF but the lassgun has more damage per shot.
combined with never reloading and perfect accuracy means you can spray at any range, and with reasonalbe aim means it can kill things in less time with less ammo.
having a assload of ammo and being able to reload at the RC is a MASSIVE advantage over the rifle.
rifle vs lassgun is like AK vs M16.
ones dirt cheap and can crank out the damage but the other is more efficient in almost every aspect.
Whoa, really?
The lasgun (I feel) is a happy medium between the rifle and the chaingun. It allows you to have the accuracy (better, actually) of a rifle without having to reload. Therefore, I think it is appropriately price, and overwhelmingly more useful than the rifle.
I do agree that it's much more useful than the rifle, but at the same time it isn't used all that much. Sure, it's used more than the flamer, but so's everything but the blaster. Plus, those changes wouldn't really make a massive difference in play-style, except ammo would deplete faster and it'd be cheaper. Also, I have no clue how you managed to compare the las to a cgun, but you did.
Anyway, that's just one of my many crazy ideas, I do think that dragoons and basilisks should be top priority balance-wise though.
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You don't have to reload a chaingun. Also, looking at stats, many good players like WarLock and Whales have incredibly high kill counts with lasgun.
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While goon pounce spam does feel a bit unfair at times i don't really feel that it's led to a woefully unbalanced game, if anything gpp matches, when not severely stacked, are feeling rather well balanced to me at the moment.
The only weapon i really dislike in gpp is that bloody shotgun, though i've only made 16 fewer kills with it than i have with the pulse rifle. Thinking about it, i've got nearly as many marazap kills as i have lasgun, my stats should probably be ignored.
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While goon pounce spam does feel a bit unfair at times i don't really feel that it's led to a woefully unbalanced game, if anything gpp matches, when not severely stacked, are feeling rather well balanced to me at the moment.
Suffice it to say: Balance does not a game make.
The lasgun is like the rifle? The lasgun is like the chaingun? I'm not even sure what game you guys are playing anymore.
The lasgun, if it is like any weapon, is like the only other hitscan weapon with perfect accuracy, the massdriver. Unless they've changed it, the lasgun has a higher damage rate and so is idealy the more effective weapon. I can think of only 3 reasons to use the massdriver over it:
1. The massdriver deals SUPRISE damage giving small or weak enemies little chance to do something about it.
2. The massdriver is easier to aim. You have time to judge a single important shot, rather than frantically try to keep the xhair constantly over the target (lasgun).
3. It's just more fun. It's satisfying to use a weapon that takes a minimal number of shots to kill with and can be relied upon to hit when you fire.
All of that aside, the lasgun is the superior weapon and can't really be compared to a lower accuracy weapon.
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While goon pounce spam does feel a bit unfair at times i don't really feel that it's led to a woefully unbalanced game, if anything gpp matches, when not severely stacked, are feeling rather well balanced to me at the moment.
Suffice it to say: Balance does not a game make.
Sorry, i should have added "and quite enjoyable, too.",
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As much as I've tried to stay away from Trem it's been the replacement for mindless TV.....
The Flamer is practically never used, Dragoons jump through the flames, and it's instakill.
The weapon has a similarity to the PainSaw, if you are alone and have it, you have a high likelihood of saying "Oh Crap", and having nobody to cover you butt.
It's good if the aliens are out of evos, and you have dozens of dretches to kill.
It is a bad choice for any other uses since it fails at being a decent defensive weapon.
The Dragoon has a bad spam issue, they can pick 3 or 4 people off easy, and because of that it's much more power then all (most/any?) S2 humans on an individual basis.
Thus the humans are in packs all the time... The ability to have an advanced goon with a decked out S2 Human, and having an even chance of winning is rare.
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Dragoons take quite a lot of damage if they jump through flamer flames.
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The problem with the flamer is that it usually only does damage when the user is receiving damage, if not from the aliens themselves, then from the splash damage that is the ultimate reward for hitting an alien. Sure almost nothing can defeat a flamer without getting hurt, but even if the flamer is victorious, the flamer is usually badly hurt as well.
As for the long lost hovel, teleportation never was a good use for it, and that is perhaps the only variant of the hovel that gained much traction. If a sane variant of the hovel were to be created, it would probably make a nice mod (if one assumes that nothing official is going to happen, of course).
I'm not sure how the idea that the lasgun is redundant came into being, its a solid weapon, at least, I think it is...
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I started playing when 1.1 was out for just around 6 months.
So when 1.1 was already out you just happened to play for around six months? Okay.
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I don't think you think at all.
I don't give a shit "who" medi is, get you ass kissing white-knightry mentality out of here.
I started playing when 1.1 was out for just around 6 months.
We get that you've been playing a long time (I've heard you say it a myriad of times,) I'd just like to take the time to point out that you haven't been playing much. http://stats.tremulous.net/tremstats/us1/player_details.php?player_id=11723
Most of your time is on humans, so understandably you'd want to keep dodge. With this being said, I don't feel that roughly 23 hours of gameplay is enough to really have a feel for the game at all, even if you have played a little bit more, I don't feel it's enough (looking at previous phases reinforces this belief more than just as little bit.) For most games, I'd say it's enough, but then again most multiplayer games don't require up to 45 minutes to complete a single match.
All of that aside, I'm more than happy to see conflicting opinions above, it shows that people still care about trem. Though I'd like to note that the lasgun was clasified as a "maybe offender" just 'cause that's how I'd change it if it were up to me, tbh it's fine as it is.
Although, I'd like to point out that my opinion is the only correct one, and thus all posts contradicting my opinion(s) should be ignored/deleted. Thank you for reading this white text. Also, I just started re-reading Deadman Wonderland. God that's an awesome manga. /nerd
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I started playing when 1.1 was out for just around 6 months.
So when 1.1 was already out you just happened to play for around six months? Okay.
Clearly he has a life. Which is why he "plays" trem.
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I am on a different Qkey/identity due to constant grayzone harassment.
i have been playing much more then that, but i do tend to play humans more then aliens due to the fact that i suck at spamming pounce, and it is just way to easy for me to spam mara zap on not-so-good bases that humans tend to make when I'm not building.
Using dodge doesn't make you a noob, using dodge usually means your not so much of a elitist to think only noobs use it. besides, its one of the only ways to dodge pounce spam.
This isn't Homestuck, and you are not DocSCRATCH. You are not omniscient, extremely powerful, or very charming.
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Fucking hell people, can there not be one thread on these forums that contains just mature discussion of a topic before degrading into stupid insults/pissfights/etc? SirDude, in this case, it's mostly you, with Reapd and others as well. I'm watching all of you guys ಠ_ಠ. Please step up the quality up a bit. It is depressing just reading some of this. Ok, back ontopic.
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was going to point out some things, mainly about what sirdude was saying, and how little sense it all made, but in light of what moose said, i'll refrain. aside from that bit about an ak and a m-16. have you even actually fired either of those weapons?
i'll agree that goon might need some tweaking. i dont play goon much, something about it just seems counterintuitive. probably just my inexperience coupled with the folks i'm playing against knowing how to roast a newbie goon quickly.
for basi: i'd like more equality between grab and swipe. the long grab range does have its uses when defending bases though. i'm kind of iffy. i like the current bassi a lot. it's useful as both support and for picking off "lone wolf" humans. at hs3, i'd rather save evos for a mara than go basi, as humans have a large selection of tools to quickly have you being pooped out of an egg as a dretch.
lasgun: i dont play human much, but when i do, i find that i'll grab a las when i can if i cannot get something better. i tend to bleed our structures less, and the battery pack combined with reactor reload makes it much more useful than the rifle to me. i wont take it on an attack on the alien base unless i have a lot of backup, but it does a great job at defense.
dodge: if you'll excuse a bit of vulgarity, fuck dodge. nothing pisses me off more than a bsuit hopscotching backwards against my rant charge killing me rather quickly with a luci. irritates me more than those stubby rant arms. in my opinion, no human should be faster than a speeding dretch. perhaps i'm still a bit too used to quakeLive's strafejump angle to get it all the time here in trem, but often humans can hop backwards at a speed i cant attain as a dretch for 3 jumps or so. i dont mind dodging to the side so much, but it does seem wrong somehow that some humans use dodge to move around the map more than to... well... dodge.
mara: excuse my newbishness, but how else are we supposed to take down human bases that are built even halfway decently with a few defenders? mara+ should be good against a s1 base, they are s2 aliens. at s2, having a DC in range helps take a bit of the sting out of periodic mara+ attacks, just so long as it isnt a rush. during a rush, shouldent the humans be defending and concentrating fire? too often as a dretch i distract humans from shooting the real dangers, such as ole mara+, by shooting ME (and my corpse.... humans seem to love shooting dead dretches) for a little while, allowing another couple of zaps. at s3, humans have teslas. personally, i have not found out the secret to taking out teslas as a mara+. i'll usually rant up, kill a tesla, and bite the bullet as the whole H-team and all their defenses focus fire on the big fat alien that wont stop screaming. to me, suggesting a zap nerf is akin to suggesting a naid nerf.
one last thing i find mildly annoying is lucijumping. i can deal with blind lucispam. it just gets to me that a human can march up, lucijump right to just about anywhere you'd care to put the OM, drop a naid, and straight up kill the OM and anything unlucky enough to be built near or defending it. defensive structures and defensive players dont seem to be capable of stopping this. i dont have any suggestions about changing it, because i'm not sure it needs to be changed - it is infrequently used it seems. i just havent seen anything analogous that a single alien can do to the RC. i havent seen everything, though.
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was going to point out some things, mainly about what sirdude was saying, and how little sense it all made, but in light of what moose said, i'll refrain. aside from that bit about an ak and a m-16. have you even actually fired either of those weapons?
That was the thing that pissed me off the most about him.
i'll agree that goon might need some tweaking. i dont play goon much, something about it just seems counterintuitive. probably just my inexperience coupled with the folks i'm playing against knowing how to roast a newbie goon quickly.
Its not counter intuitive, its fucking backwards. Why would I use the SECONDARY move more than the PRIMARY. I don't understand what possessed devs to nerf chomp so much. Its a 3 evo alien, WEAKEN ITS HP. I don't care! Just don't take away the one attack that it actually has!
for basi: i'd like more equality between grab and swipe. the long grab range does have its uses when defending bases though. i'm kind of iffy. i like the current bassi a lot. it's useful as both support and for picking off "lone wolf" humans. at hs3, i'd rather save evos for a mara than go basi, as humans have a large selection of tools to quickly have you being pooped out of an egg as a dretch.
I completely agree, but I don't like how boring basi is now. I spent like a week learning basi on 1.1 and then I left for 1.2. I WASTED that time learning.
lasgun: i dont play human much, but when i do, i find that i'll grab a las when i can if i cannot get something better. i tend to bleed our structures less, and the battery pack combined with reactor reload makes it much more useful than the rifle to me. i wont take it on an attack on the alien base unless i have a lot of backup, but it does a great job at defense.
It is, but I would like a faster repeat and lower dmg.
dodge: if you'll excuse a bit of vulgarity, fuck dodge. nothing pisses me off more than a bsuit hopscotching backwards against my rant charge killing me rather quickly with a luci. irritates me more than those stubby rant arms. in my opinion, no human should be faster than a speeding dretch. perhaps i'm still a bit too used to quakeLive's strafejump angle to get it all the time here in trem, but often humans can hop backwards at a speed i cant attain as a dretch for 3 jumps or so. i dont mind dodging to the side so much, but it does seem wrong somehow that some humans use dodge to move around the map more than to... well... dodge.
I want it taken out, or nerfed to shit. I never use, I don't NEED to use it, why should others need it? I'm awful, so they can't be much worse.
mara: excuse my newbishness, but how else are we supposed to take down human bases that are built even halfway decently with a few defenders? mara+ should be good against a s1 base, they are s2 aliens. at s2, having a DC in range helps take a bit of the sting out of periodic mara+ attacks, just so long as it isnt a rush. during a rush, shouldent the humans be defending and concentrating fire? too often as a dretch i distract humans from shooting the real dangers, such as ole mara+, by shooting ME (and my corpse.... humans seem to love shooting dead dretches) for a little while, allowing another couple of zaps. at s3, humans have teslas. personally, i have not found out the secret to taking out teslas as a mara+. i'll usually rant up, kill a tesla, and bite the bullet as the whole H-team and all their defenses focus fire on the big fat alien that wont stop screaming. to me, suggesting a zap nerf is akin to suggesting a naid nerf.
No nerf for mara. Its completely fine. 3 evos for an s2 alien. Completely balanced. If H has a bad builder, thats their fault, same as if their entire team feeds.
one last thing i find mildly annoying is lucijumping. i can deal with blind lucispam. it just gets to me that a human can march up, lucijump right to just about anywhere you'd care to put the OM, drop a naid, and straight up kill the OM and anything unlucky enough to be built near or defending it. defensive structures and defensive players dont seem to be capable of stopping this. i dont have any suggestions about changing it, because i'm not sure it needs to be changed - it is infrequently used it seems. i just havent seen anything analogous that a single alien can do to the RC. i havent seen everything, though.
This doesn't bother me, because it is much harder to luci jump in 1.2.
All in all, I agree with you.
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dodge: *snip*. dodge.
I want it taken out, or nerfed to shit. I never use, I don't NEED to use it, why should others need it? I'm awful, so they can't be much worse.
Why remove or "nerf to shit" a feature that you don't even need, surely if you can't possibly benefit from it then it's nothing more than a convenience to those who do utilise it? Initially i refused to use dodge, when i gave in and started using it i quickly found myself missing it when i returned to 1.1, and that's just bound to x alongside boost, it'd probably be even more useful if i actually bothered to bind it so i can dodge+ left and right in a practical manner. Even with dodge, i find it almost impossible to evade a skilled goon(possibly due to my tendency not to dodge anywhere but backward) , but i'm sure i'd have even more trouble without.
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dodge: *snip*. dodge.
I want it taken out, or nerfed to shit. I never use, I don't NEED to use it, why should others need it? I'm awful, so they can't be much worse.
Why remove or "nerf to shit" a feature that you don't even need, surely if you can't possibly benefit from it then it's nothing more than a convenience to those who do utilise it? Initially i refused to use dodge, when i gave in and started using it i quickly found myself missing it when i returned to 1.1, and that's just bound to x alongside boost, it'd probably be even more useful if i actually bothered to bind it so i can dodge+ left and right in a practical manner. Even with dodge, i find it almost impossible to evade a skilled goon(possibly due to my tendency not to dodge anywhere but backward) , but i'm sure i'd have even more trouble without.
I find it useless and it takes away the fun of the game. OH NO, I IM WEAK AND CAN'T DANCE, LETS PRESS MY HANDY DANDY BUTTON AND DODGE 300000 FEET BACKWARDS. Its annoying as an alien and aliens were nerfed enough. If they won't take out or nerf dodge, I want goon chomp range extended and widened. No alien can take out a dodge spamming dick wad.
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Most "dodge spamming dickwads" are extremely predictable, so, all you really have to do is be able to aim. Further, dodge helps humans avoid attacks like trample and pounce that aren't that easy to dodge using regular "dancing."
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perhaps i'm still a bit too used to quakeLive's strafejump angle to get it all the time here in trem
They're the same.
one last thing i find mildly annoying is (1)lucijumping. i can deal with blind lucispam. it just gets to me that a human can march up, (2)lucijump right to just about anywhere you'd care to put the OM, drop a naid, and straight up kill the OM and anything unlucky enough to be built near or defending it. defensive structures and defensive players dont seem to be capable of stopping this. i dont have any suggestions about changing it, because i'm not sure it needs to be changed - it is infrequently used it seems. (3)i just havent seen anything analogous that a single alien can do to the RC. i havent seen everything, though.
1) What? Why? You play Quake, do you have a problem with rocketjumping?
2) Assuming there isn't a dretch there to bite them and do enough damage to kill the jumper after the massive luci damage they will take.
3) ...reactor hopping?
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Most "dodge spamming dickwads" are extremely predictable, so, all you really have to do is be able to aim. Further, dodge helps humans avoid attacks like trample and pounce that aren't that easy to dodge using regular "dancing."
tell me, in the situation i posted above (rant charging bsuit), where do i aim to hit the guy dodging backwards?
i dont think dodge should be removed, but i think perhaps it should be disabled on bsuits. or, alternately, lower the acceleration across the board for dodging backwards. i have no issue with side to side dodge, just back.
perhaps i'm still a bit too used to quakeLive's strafejump angle to get it all the time here in trem
They're the same.
one last thing i find mildly annoying is (1)lucijumping. i can deal with blind lucispam. it just gets to me that a human can march up, (2)lucijump right to just about anywhere you'd care to put the OM, drop a naid, and straight up kill the OM and anything unlucky enough to be built near or defending it. defensive structures and defensive players dont seem to be capable of stopping this. i dont have any suggestions about changing it, because i'm not sure it needs to be changed - it is infrequently used it seems. (3)i just havent seen anything analogous that a single alien can do to the RC. i havent seen everything, though.
1) What? Why? You play Quake, do you have a problem with rocketjumping?
2) Assuming there isn't a dretch there to bite them and do enough damage to kill the jumper after the massive luci damage they will take.
3) ...reactor hopping?
QL and q3 have different angles for strafejumping. it's well documented.
1) in quake, any player can have a rocket launcher. give me an alien with a rocket analog, and we'll call it even.
2) luci splash and that nade tend to kill dretches before they have a chance to bite. the overmind is usually dead or dying before the offending human bites the bullet, usually from his own weapons.
3. which alien that can jump onto a RC has the damage output of luci + nade?
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QL and q3 have different angles for strafejumping. it's well documented.
1) in quake, any player can have a rocket launcher. give me an alien with a rocket analog, and we'll call it even.
2) luci splash and that nade tend to kill dretches before they have a chance to bite. the overmind is usually dead or dying before the offending human bites the bullet, usually from his own weapons.
3. which alien that can jump onto a RC has the damage output of luci + nade?
I'd like to see the documentation on that; it'd be news to me, and I play both.
1) Dragoon pounce is actually very analogous to rocket jumping...
2) Not smart dretches.
3) This also begs the question, is your team bad enough to let either of these things happen in the first place? If yes, then a mara can do just as much.
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Marauder RC hopping is fine...
Flamer needs help, goons needs help.
That's the core issues that needs to be addressed before 1.2 is finalized.
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QL and q3 have different angles for strafejumping. it's well documented.
1) in quake, any player can have a rocket launcher. give me an alien with a rocket analog, and we'll call it even.
2) luci splash and that nade tend to kill dretches before they have a chance to bite. the overmind is usually dead or dying before the offending human bites the bullet, usually from his own weapons.
3. which alien that can jump onto a RC has the damage output of luci + nade?
I'd like to see the documentation on that; it'd be news to me, and I play both.
1) Dragoon pounce is actually very analogous to rocket jumping...
2) Not smart dretches.
3) This also begs the question, is your team bad enough to let either of these things happen in the first place? If yes, then a mara can do just as much.
it's not as well documented as i thought it was. but the differences are there. for one, you slowly accelerate as long as you keep jumping, as per first "code update" in this changelog http://www.quakelive.com/forum/showthread.php?5591-Site-Update-October-26-2010
i used to have an article explaining the math of it and the differences bookmarked, but that was an OS reinstall and blown motherboard ago. if memory serves, the "optimum" angle for q3 was 45 degrees, while ql uses something closer to 40 or even 35. the different alien FoVs in trem also might be a factor, as researching this for you has pointed me to evidence that FoV affects the angle as well. i'd spend more time searching, but even web browsing takes forever on this circa 1999 computer.
1) goon pounce has splash damage? this is news to me.
2) i'd believe you if there was a longer delay between firing a charged shot and an uncharged shot. also, this is a human, not a bot. i doubt anyone who would use this tactic would ignore the dretches just to kill the OM, especially when they'll need some credits to rearm and do it again.
3) i may be new and not have the numbers in front of me, but i do not think a s2 mara+ has the DPS of a s3 luci, with a naid thrown in. mara claws (or chomps, whatever you choose to believe the attack really is) do not have splash damage. splash damage that oneshots any naked rifles that happen to have the ill luck to spawn nearby.
all in all, there is a jetpack. you can use that to fly, rather than shooting your feet. i just dont like seeing a craptastic human team that camps the whole round get some habitually human player to jump on, kill the OM for them, and win the map though they have less overall teamwork.
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Most "dodge spamming dickwads" are extremely predictable, so, all you really have to do is be able to aim. Further, dodge helps humans avoid attacks like trample and pounce that aren't that easy to dodge using regular "dancing."
As predictable as it is, with spammers, most of them will just backpeddle constantly, and how easy is it kill them with a dretch, basi, and regular mara while they spam backwards? I wouldn't mind dodge if goon chomp could at least counter it. Or they made it less usable, like how Medi suggested. But its very frustrating(see my last 2 posts for examples) when I spend 3 or 4 dretch lives getting a goon and then losing that goon to someone who has no idea what their doing other than "thers tiscool buton tht halpz me b pro." And also the fact that, however bad I am, I'm better than the average noob. And I spent close to 3 years learning how to play 1.1 just to have basically all of it thrown away.
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Pounce those backpedaling mofos (If you aim at their chest, dodge doesn't take them out of pounce range). If you're a dretch or basi, strafe jump. If you are a mara, use the walls.
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however bad I am, I'm better than the average noob. And I spent close to 3 years learning how to play 1.1 just to have basically all of it thrown away.
Boohoo, i guess, poor little Reapd... ::)
Protip, stop claiming that dodge gives no advantage if you then go on to complain about the advantages it gives, and hey, learn to dodge.
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How to counter lucijumps? Barricades, or simply aliens/hives/tubes in the right place block lucijumpers completely. Putting trappers on the wall/ceiling where the lucijumping humans land makes them extremely vulnerable. A trapped human inside alien base will die to aliens/tubes/hives way before he even nearly kills the Overmind. Grenades can be rendered useless by barricading the Overmind. Eggs can be placed near the Overmind so that defenders will constantly spawn all around the poor jumper.
Lucijumpers usually
a) have taken damage before the lucijump
b) take damage from the lucijump itself
c) take damage after the lucijump from defensive structures
d) take damage after the lucijump from aliens
e) take splash damage from trying to kill the aliens
which sums up to so much damage that they aren't really a problem at all.
tl;dr - Lucijumping is overpowered! >:(
- Build correctly. ;)
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however bad I am, I'm better than the average noob. And I spent close to 3 years learning how to play 1.1 just to have basically all of it thrown away.
Boohoo, i guess, poor little Reapd... ::)
Protip, stop claiming that dodge gives no advantage if you then go on to complain about the advantages it gives, and hey, learn to dodge.
K, I'll spam dodge now.
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Just something to worth noting- You can run to the side faster than you can backpedal, but dodge on the other hand is uniform no matter what the direction is. Why doesn't dodge work the same way?
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goon:
a) dragoon repeat rate; make the current adv goon the 1.1 normal goon speed, normal goon to current gpp adv goon.
b) pounce range (as in how far you can reach, not how far you can jump) to 0.
c) Must travel minimum of 60 units after pounce for pounce attack to valid.
for marauder:
a) Old zap back because more realistic and no zap-run within 0.1 seconds. (Zap taks i think 0.3 seconds, and attacks 4 times of 20 dmg in that time, in gpp just does one set of 80 instant. Bullshit and animations continue)
b) Reach back to normal, can't reach humans at max marauder jump hight.
c) cg_1.1mararauder 1/0 (enables air physics of old or new marauder, old one is harder to jump onto atcs bunker and can't jump continuously on two walls; and also can't climb 100 metres in air with just one wall [tested in gmod's treecannon mod as well as normal treecannon; pretty handy for killing rc ontop of human default by evolving 50 metres in air and crushing rc in one hit])
Basi:
Old basi back, weak healing aura and pass strong aura to builder.
rant:
Creep strength aura pls, healing 3.5 health a second? Serious? Old used to be 14 now divided by 4. Thats bull.
Luci: Charge time to 2.5 not 3 seconds, fix left click luci spam (charge until HUD charge pops up, let go and immediately re-press), and also firing one ammo from left click the bullet is slower than right click.
Flamer: cg_1.1flamer (you know)
Chaingun: Old fuzz/shaky screen back, the new one is a bit laggy (i press, it shoots for a second then shakes, i let go stop shooting and still shakes for a second)
AdvGoon: Snipe animation. (only seen when holding pounce charge button at the same time while sniping)
Alien healing outside creep: Don't halve, 3/4 it.
_____________________
And i got more on my brain list.
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goon:
a) dragoon repeat rate; make the current adv goon the 1.1 normal goon speed, normal goon to current gpp adv goon.
b) pounce range (as in how far you can reach, not how far you can jump) to 0.
c) Must travel minimum of 60 units after pounce for pounce attack to valid.
for marauder:
a) Old zap back because more realistic and no zap-run within 0.1 seconds. (Zap taks i think 0.3 seconds, and attacks 4 times of 20 dmg in that time, in gpp just does one set of 80 instant. Bullshit and animations continue)
b) Reach back to normal, can't reach humans at max marauder jump hight.
c) cg_1.1mararauder 1/0 (enables air physics of old or new marauder, old one is harder to jump onto atcs bunker and can't jump continuously on two walls; and also can't climb 100 metres in air with just one wall [tested in gmod's treecannon mod as well as normal treecannon; pretty handy for killing rc ontop of human default by evolving 50 metres in air and crushing rc in one hit])
Basi:
Old basi back, weak healing aura and pass strong aura to builder.
rant:
Creep strength aura pls, healing 3.5 health a second? Serious? Old used to be 14 now divided by 4. Thats bull.
Luci: Charge time to 2.5 not 3 seconds, fix left click luci spam (charge until HUD charge pops up, let go and immediately re-press), and also firing one ammo from left click the bullet is slower than right click.
Flamer: cg_1.1flamer (you know)
Chaingun: Old fuzz/shaky screen back, the new one is a bit laggy (i press, it shoots for a second then shakes, i let go stop shooting and still shakes for a second)
AdvGoon: Snipe animation. (only seen when holding pounce charge button at the same time while sniping)
Alien healing outside creep: Don't halve, 3/4 it.
_____________________
And i got more on my brain list.
Your goon ideas are stupid. For all of them.
Your marauder facts are completely off. Marauder zap has always done 60 damage, and isn't that powerful except against clumps of buildings and/or people that don't include teslas. Marauder has always been able to slash human heads at max jump height. The range has been DECREASED in 1.2 already. /cg_1.1marauder 1/0 is a HORRIBLE idea, let alone the fact that I don't think cvars can have periods in them? Dunno about that... This effectively would either let you have an epic mara or a weaker mara. Nobody would turn it on except to own noobs and laugh at them for getting owned by a weaker mara.
Basi is perfect as it is. Why would you want to give a BUILDER a healing aura? That's a stupid idea.
Rant should not have a healing aura. They got rid of that and lowered the health to 350. Anyways, rant heals 8.5 hp or so per second when not near any healing source AFAIK. Get your facts straight. (Actually I'm pretty sure I'm wrong :'( )
Anyways, on to Luci. LUCI IS FINE. IT IS POSSIBLY EVEN TOO POWERFUL NOW. About the spam from +attack luci, it is weaker than spam from +button5 luci, and thus +button5 luci has a slower repeat rate. 1 ammo shots from +attack luci are weaker than +button5 luci, because of that exact same reason.
Flamer is fine, and they are NOT going to make commands like that allowing people to have their style of gameplay. 1.2 =/= 1.1 and it's gonna stay that way. So far I can only off the top of my head think of 1 thing in 1.1 that I prefer to 1.2 and that would, ofc, be hovel. ;_;
Chaingun is fine, and it really isn't laggy, it's realistic. The gun wouldn't stop shaking suddenly. It takes time to cool down. Realistically it would take a half a second, maybe a full second to warm up before it started murdering aliens.
Advgoon: no. Nobody would do that, and it would be hard as hell to implement. Why make an animation that nobody would use. You don't realize how hard it is to make stuff like that. If you make the animation, I'm sure they still wouldn't implement it because it would suck. Hard.
Alien healing outside creep: is fine. Aliens aren't Wolverine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolverine_(comics)), and thus don't have Wolverine Healing (http://notinvincible.blogspot.com/2005/11/wolverines-healing-factor.html). That would be OP. Aliens are somewhat overpowered as it is, and this would make them 50% better.
ALL IN ALL, don't make ideas that suck. AKA don't make ideas that aren't plausible. Seriously, how old are you, 10? And please, nobody will take you seriously if you don't use good grammar/spelling.
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Basi is perfect as it is.
No, just no.
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Basi is perfect as it is.
No, just no.
This
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A quick review of this topic shows that most feel that the dragoon needs at least some changing, and that a significant (though, a decent bit less) number of people think that basilisk could use some tweaks too. I'm basing this on the comments made about these two aliens, not the lack thereof (mainly because if someone felt it necessary to disagree, they would.) As for dodge, well most people seem to like it, however I will quote one wise poster (yes, I know how humble I am.)
You can run to the side faster than you can backpedal, but dodge on the other hand is uniform no matter what the direction is. Why doesn't dodge work the same way?
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/me enters to defend Friend :basilisk:
I think he's just fine, yes he's somewhat overpowered in a 1v1, but as soon as that human brings a buddy, friend :basilisk: is all but screwed.
Also, i think lasgun is fine, yes its not the most n00b popular weapon, but its very useful in its own right.
Also, hovel as more of a low wide barricade/spike strip? that might work ok...
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The lasgun is like the rifle? The lasgun is like the chaingun? I'm not even sure what game you guys are playing anymore.
Absolutely correct. Those weapons cannot be compared to each other for many reasons.
All of that aside, the lasgun is the superior weapon and can't really be compared to a lower accuracy weapon.
Wrong. Consulting my allmighty datasheed (http://sacharja.at/tremulous/datasheet.ods), I can state that a rifle deals a damage of 5/shot, a lasgun 9, but the rifle has a lesser repeat on one hand, but a reload on the other, so:
| | rifle | lasgun |
| dps/clip | 56 | 45 |
| dps total | 34 | 45 |
While firing a single clip, the rifle does indeed more damage than the lasgun, but: it has a reload (standard reload, two seconds) between clips, so in sustained fire, the rifle does less damage than the lasgun. Against small targets near you, the rifle is the better choice, against a bigger foe that has some distance between you and it, you're better off with the lasgun, and – important! – if your aim is not that good, you may be better off with a rifle, because the spread gives you a bigger area in which you may hit something.
The lasergun and the rifle have different characteristics, and, depending the tactical situation which implies your personal fighting style, one or the other may be the better choice, no matter the stage.
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Very good point. :) +1
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The lasgun is like the rifle? The lasgun is like the chaingun? I'm not even sure what game you guys are playing anymore.
Absolutely correct. Those weapons cannot be compared to each other for many reasons.
All of that aside, the lasgun is the superior weapon and can't really be compared to a lower accuracy weapon.
Wrong. Consulting my allmighty datasheed (http://sacharja.at/tremulous/datasheet.ods), [explanation of the difference between rifle and lasgun]
Heh, I didn't mean it literally could never be compared. :P Merely that to compare such different weapons- as you explained so well -will conclude with words to the effect of 'they are good for different things'. You'll see I was comparing the massdriver and the lasgun, which I believe are similar enough (they are useful in mostly the same situations) to come to a much more simple conclusion.
EDIT: also, thanks to you mentioning the difference between total and per clip damage per second, you've made me realise the massdriver total dps is actually even lower than I thought it was if you include reloading time.
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Just for the record, I just checked the dps/clip and the dps/total of the massdriver, and figured it is the lowest of all, if you don't count the blaster:
rifle:
dps/clip: 56
dps total: 34
lasgun:
dps/clip: 45
dps total: 45
massdriver:
dps/clip: 40
dps total: 31, 33 with battery pack
I know you compared the lasgun with the massdriver, but that was not what I answered to or quoted, respectively. However, the massdriver has a damage per shot of 40, so will take down a dretch with one shot, and literally every other wallwalking alien with two, and, again consulting my allmighty datasheet, this gives you one second to kill a fully healthed advanced basilisk at distance, while it would take you 1.6s to do that with a lasgun, a damage of 40 per shot is really nothing to mess with if you are an attacking alien, giving the zoomed view of the massdriver, this one can really be dangerous at distance, it may as well finish off a retreating bigger alien.
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Yeah, but in actual use, the MD will get more DPS on certain targets. The reality is that people miss a lot more with machineguns like the lasgun than rifles like the MD, and sometimes you just CAN'T keep a good aim at a target at all times, due to dancing and other manouvers. It's impossible (or hard) to aimbot-lock a mara jumping like crazy all over the place (over your head) to equal an MD hit, but with a single powerful shot, you can get the mara every time. OFC with tyrants and goons there really is no advantage, but then you basically have a slightly weakened shotgun with loads of range.
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...this gives you one second to kill a fully healthed advanced basilisk at distance, while it would take you 1.6s to do that with a lasgun...
Actually, if you don't assume you're ready to fire at time zero and disregard the reload time of the massdriver, the time to pull off the first two shots of the massdriver and the first 8 shots of the lasgun (the amounts needed to kill an adv. basi) are actually the same (at 1.5 seconds). You get this by assuming instead that the player is any length of time between shots and so use the average time to first shot of each (0.5 seconds for massdriver and 0.1 seconds for lasgun). The time to pull off 1 shot after that for massdriver is 1 second so that total is 1.5s and to pull off 7 shots after the first lasgun shot takes 1.4 seconds, so again it's 1.5s.
Now if you take into acount massdriver reload time, the massdriver is actually slower. Now it just depends on whether you think it's fair to assume the massdriver is ready or not.
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The lasgun is like the rifle? The lasgun is like the chaingun? I'm not even sure what game you guys are playing anymore.
Absolutely correct. Those weapons cannot be compared to each other for many reasons.
All of that aside, the lasgun is the superior weapon and can't really be compared to a lower accuracy weapon.
Wrong. Consulting my allmighty datasheed (http://sacharja.at/tremulous/datasheet.ods), I can state that a rifle deals a damage of 5/shot, a lasgun 9, but the rifle has a lesser repeat on one hand, but a reload on the other, so:
| | rifle | lasgun |
| dps/clip | 56 | 45 |
| dps total | 34 | 45 |
While firing a single clip, the rifle does indeed more damage than the lasgun, but: it has a reload (standard reload, two seconds) between clips, so in sustained fire, the rifle does less damage than the lasgun. Against small targets near you, the rifle is the better choice, against a bigger foe that has some distance between you and it, you're better off with the lasgun, and – important! – if your aim is not that good, you may be better off with a rifle, because the spread gives you a bigger area in which you may hit something.
The lasergun and the rifle have different characteristics, and, depending the tactical situation which implies your personal fighting style, one or the other may be the better choice, no matter the stage.
Sure they have different characteristics (and uses,) but if you were to average both of the dps's you gave for the rifle you'd get a nice and shiny 45. Anything wrong with this? Nothing really. However I don't think a mere clip removal, and pinpoint accuracy justifies the need for 250 creds. Hence my idea (in the op.) It'd make the lasgun more accessible to newbies, while still remaining similar enough to maintain its current uses.
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Sure they have different characteristics (and uses,) but if you were to average both of the dps's you gave for the rifle you'd get a nice and shiny 45.
The first dps is disregarding reload and the second is taking it into account. The only time averaging the two values has any meaning is when you've spent half your time reloading+firing and half your time just firing.
If you like, later I'll make a little excel spreadsheet explaining the differences between all the weapons graphically.
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Yet again I've experienced mega pounce spam....
Needs to be fixed as it's ridiculous having a goon pick off a half dozen players in under 30 seconds.
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Must be a skilled goon or a noob human team.
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Well here's a graph of the damage done in the first 10 seconds of continuous fire (including reloads) after the first shot.
(http://i.imgur.com/Vl7kk.png)
Sorry if it looks a little cluttered, but this should let you see how certain weapons compare a little better than with just the numbers. For example, you can see that a painsaw does the same damage as a grenade after 2 seconds and after 5 seconds only the rifle, the lasgun, the massdriver and the blaster haven't done as much damage as one grenade.
Here's (http://www.mediafire.com/?5i22s5pqz03dcyp) the excel sheet I made to simulate the weapons firing over time. It goes for a full minute of firing (all exhaustable weapons are exhausted by that point).
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Wow, that's really nice work, and an impressive lot of effort. I'd love to see something similar for aliens. People were having a hard time showing definitively the difference between pounce and chomp in various situations and some graphs would make it really clear.
What'd you do? Pull it from condumps with g_debugDamage?
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It was done entirely on an excel spreadsheet (the end of that post gives you a link to it). I use excel not because it's the nicest way to do it, but because it's the quickest.
I hadn't actually heard of g_debugDamage till you mentioned it, so I tried it out and yes that would be an extremely slow way to gather and plot the values. As a test though, I recorded some damage data for painsaw, using it and found something odd.
(http://i.imgur.com/EkvOH.png)
As you can see the data values slightly differ from my predicted values. This is because rather than having a constant repeat interval of 75 ms like it purportedly has, the g_debugDamage shows it dealing damage after either 50 or 100 ms seemingly randomly. For this small sample of values the repeat interval averaged at about 80.
I don't know whether this is inherently how damage is dealt or whether it's to do with how g_debugDamage records it but I have noticed similarly odd patterns when slowing down demos and watching bullets being fired from the rifle. Anybody have any info on this?
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Your reload times are calculated wrong: the 'cooldown' effect between shots is applied after last shot before reloading is started, which means there's (for shotgun and md) 3 seconds between last shot in a clip and first shot in next clip.
The server runs at 20 fps (50 msec intervals), which is why the psaw time is off.
Also: a 5MB microsoft excel file with 480 000 values that takes about 10min to open? (at least in open office) D:
How about Qalculate plot tool expressions? (with comments!) I actually created *most* of these just a few days ago.
x=time, y=damage, step size=0.005, min=0 max=50
Blaster 10(1+floor(x/0.6))
Rifle
floor(x/0.09) //shows how many 0.09 second periods have passed
5(1+floor(x/0.09)) //a basic damage graph, starting at 5 and increasing by 5 every 0.09s
5(1+floor(rem(x,4.7)/0.09)) //repeat the same graph every 30 * 0.09 + 2 = 4.7s
if(rem(x,4.7)<2.7 , 5(1+floor(rem(x,4.7)/0.09)) , 150) //stop increase at 2.7s of each 4.7s interval, set to 150 after
if(rem(x,4.7)<2.7 , 5(1+floor(rem(x,4.7)/0.09)) , 150) + 150*floor(x/4.7) //add 150 for every 4.7s
if(x<30.9, if(rem(x,4.7)<2.7 , 5(1+floor(rem(x,4.7)/0.09)) , 150) + 150*floor(x/4.7) , 1050) //limit to 7 clips
Painsaw if(x<27.2, 11(1+floor(x/0.075)), 4000) //limited to 4000 to keep graph small
Shotgun if(x<38, if(rem(x,10)<8 , 55(1+floor(rem(x,10))) , 440) + 440*floor(x/10) , 1760)
Lasgun if(x<40, 9(1+floor(x/0.2)), 1800)
Mass Driver if(x<33, if(rem(x,7)<5 , 40(1+floor(rem(x,7))) , 200) + 200*floor(x/7) , 1000)
Chaingun if(x<24, 6(1+floor(x/0.08)), 1800)
Pulse Rifle if(x<34, if(rem(x,6)<4 , 9(1+floor(rem(x,6)/0.1)) , 360) + 360*floor(x/6) , 2160)
Flamer if(x<40, 20(1+floor(x/0.2)), 4000) //without splash
Lucifer Cannon
min charge if(x<48, 9(floor(x/0.6)), 720) //from start of charge
max charge if(x<28, 265(floor(x/3.5)), 2120)
secondary if(x<80, 30(floor(x)), 2400) (no lines for weap+battpack, also the luci min (and somewhat max) charge total time & damage depends on the EXACT charge time since you can get 9-24 dmg for 1 ammo)
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/4817/tremulousweapondamagegr.png (http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/4817/tremulousweapondamagegr.png)
EDIT: oops, blaster was way off (and still is in img)
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Thanks for letting me know about the 'cool down' effect occuring before reload, I pressumed wrongly that it didn't.
I agree that's a lot nicer, I've just gotten into a habit of using excel (yes, I'm on MS Win7) which loads fairly fast for me despite it's size (I would have probably used matlab though, yet again because I'm used to it). Also to note is that many layMANs who see my post will have excel and using the file (provided it loads fast enough for them) they can edit the weapon specifications and view the results without much knowledge of how it works.
I will point out you seem to be using 1.1 values (such as 7 clips) which isn't so appropriate since this thread is about GPP.
I'll see what I can do with proper code later on but in the meantime, cheers for the reply.
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Rifle DOES have 7 clips, the first clip + 6 extra. If there are any other mistakes, do point those out. I originally made a few of these during 1.1, though I think I changed all to 1.2 values.
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http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/4817/tremulousweapondamagegr.png (http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/4817/tremulousweapondamagegr.png)
Where is the massdriver? Painsaw obviously seems to be wrong in the last seconds starting from ~27,27s.
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Rifle DOES have 7 clips, the first clip + 6 extra. If there are any other mistakes, do point those out. I originally made a few of these during 1.1, though I think I changed all to 1.2 values.
Yeah, you're right. ziplocpeople, your data sheet calculates total damage incorrectly.
If I spot anything I'll let you know.
Painsaw obviously seems to be wrong in the last seconds starting from ~27,27s.
Painsaw if(x<27.2, 11(1+floor(x/0.075)), 4000) //limited to 4000 to keep graph small
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Found out it's possible to scale the graph with RMB
Damage over 10 sec (http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/4817/tremulousweapondamagegr.png)
Damage over 45 sec (http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/4817/tremulousweapondamagegr.png)
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I assume the prifle is without the battpack? It gets so close to 400 damage, and then it has to reload.
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All of your weapons deal thier first shot of damage at time zero apart from lucifer cannon. I don't know whether you're 'starting your charging' at that point but even if that's the case, wouldn't the first shot (max shot) be at minimum 2 seconds and at max 3 seconds? You've got it firing at 3.5 seconds. I'm guessing this is because you include 'cool down' time with charge time but neglect to deduct the very first one (which wouldn't exist). It would probably be best to set the repeat to 2.5 seconds (with a first shot at 2) since that's optimal or 3 seconds (with a first shot at 2.5 seconds) because that's average.
I'm not saying you should definately have the first shot of every weapon at time zero (it might be more informative if the first shot was based off estimated response to a threat, from rest) but whatever you choose it's best to be consistent. :]
EDIT: Also, something notable this points out is there's absolutely no reason to spam small charged shots, because you can do a better job by switching to blaster (which has unlimited ammo, projectiles that move twice as fast AND does 2 points more damage per second!).
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Whats wrong:
-Supar1337 repeaters with which its IMPOSSIBLE to fail at building a forward base.
-Dretch hitbox is bigger because Americans can't aim. (Burn!)
-Somehow, Tyrants are both better and worse for killwhores at the same time.
-No crouch block.
Whats right:
-Everything that's the same from 1.1.
-More stamina.
-Turrets more balanced.
-The graphics/weapon/alien models.
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Whats wrong:
-Supar1337 repeaters with which its IMPOSSIBLE to fail at building a forward base.
-Dretch hitbox is bigger because Americans can't aim. (Burn!)
-Somehow, Tyrants are both better and worse for killwhores at the same time.
-No crouch block.
-Please. Impossible to fail? You clearly have not played GPP at all.
-It seems you can't read either. Dretch hitbox was unchanged, the model was enlarged to fit the hitbox.
-How is this wrong
-Again, how is this wrong? It was a bug in 1.1 and now it's fixed.
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Whats wrong:
-Supar1337 repeaters with which its IMPOSSIBLE to fail at building a forward base.
-Dretch hitbox is bigger because Americans can't aim. (Burn!)
-Somehow, Tyrants are both better and worse for killwhores at the same time.
-No crouch block.
-Please. Impossible to fail? You clearly have not played GPP at all.
-It seems you can't read either. Dretch hitbox was unchanged, the model was enlarged to fit the hitbox.
-How is this wrong
-Again, how is this wrong? It was a bug in 1.1 and now it's fixed.
-I have, and a competent human team with a competent builder always buried an Alien team because they could just rock up and build a forward base. Instantly. At stage 1. Dominating at stage 1 often means dominating across the board.
-Thats not what it felt like when I played. I was wrecking Dretches left right and centre without trying, and I'm not normally THAT good.
-Because now theres NOBODY that likes them.
-Because it took skill, and now there's no counter. If there was one thing that was perfect and didn't need tweaking in this game, its Dragoon combat.
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- I disagree completely. Dominating at stage 1 does not mean dominating the entire game. It certainly helps, but there are many a game where aliens are s1 and humans s3, yet aliens still manage to pull off a win. Further, any semi-decent alien player can easily take out a forward. It just the matter of pouncing a couple of rets. If an alien team allows the human team to build a forward right up next their base at the very beginning of the game, that's their own damn fault and they deserve whatever they get.
- Yes, it has been acknowledged that many feel that the dretch is too weak. However, this has more to do with the decreased damage than with the dretch hitbox.
- Actually, the rant is far more balanced now. The decreased HP, the increased finesse adds to the skill required to fully realize the rants full potential.
- Crouching took skill? That's news to me. Also, "there's no counter?" Really? There has ALWAYS been a counter. It's called dodging.
If you want to make a convincing point, try not to depend on absolutes.
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EDIT: Also, something notable this points out is there's absolutely no reason to spam small charged shots, because you can do a better job by switching to blaster (which has unlimited ammo, projectiles that move twice as fast AND does 2 points more damage per second!).
Wrong, lucifer secondary projectiles are as fast as blaster shots are, you don't have to deal with switching weapons which takes a lot of time, lucifer secondary kills dretches instantly unlike the blaster.
Scrap that, I misread. But yeah, spamming small charged shots is useless, that's where the secondary attack mode helps though. Perhaps you could add a lucifer 1/2 charge too to the graph?
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The absolute minimum charge (100ms) is indeed a bit weaker than blaster, tho charging for 270ms (~max dmg from 1 ammo) makes it significantly more powerful (24dmg/0.77s = 31 dps) and about equal to luci secondary.
Removing cooldown from first shot is easy ("(x+0.5)" instead of "x"):
Lucifer Cannon
min charge if(x<48, 9(floor((x+0.5)/0.6)), 720) //from start of charge
half charge if(x<32, 132(floor((x+0.5)/2)), 2112) //max dmg for 5 ammo
max charge if(x<28, 265(floor((x+0.5)/3.5)), 2120)
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Rifle DOES have 7 clips, the first clip + 6 extra. If there are any other mistakes, do point those out. I originally made a few of these during 1.1, though I think I changed all to 1.2 values.
Yeah, you're right. ziplocpeople, your data sheet calculates total damage incorrectly.
If I spot anything I'll let you know.
Painsaw obviously seems to be wrong in the last seconds starting from ~27,27s.
Painsaw if(x<27.2, 11(1+floor(x/0.075)), 4000) //limited to 4000 to keep graph small
Wait, I made a datasheet? Here I thought that I hadn't used anything like excel for several years.
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Wait, I made a datasheet? Here I thought that I hadn't used anything like excel for several years.
Heh. My mistake, it was zybork not ziploc. Apologies!
(also he used an open office spreadsheet which I'll admit is 'like' excel but still worth noting)
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No problem, everybody makes mistakes. Except for me.
I don't think it's worth noting, as it is "like excel." Especially since I said that I didn't think I had used anything "like excel" in ages.
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Found out it's possible to scale the graph with RMB
Damage over 10 sec (http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/4817/tremulousweapondamagegr.png)
Damage over 45 sec (http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/4817/tremulousweapondamagegr.png)
Wait, so mini charges (luci) is actually weaker than blaster? WTF?!? That's screwed.
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Also, something notable this points out is there's absolutely no reason to spam small charged shots, because you can do a better job by switching to blaster (which has unlimited ammo, projectiles that move twice as fast AND does 2 points more damage per second!).
The absolute minimum charge (100ms) is indeed a bit weaker than blaster, tho charging for 270ms (~max dmg from 1 ammo) makes it significantly more powerful (24dmg/0.77s = 31 dps) and about equal to luci secondary.
On this note, is it actually possible to get a varied amound of damage from one ammo? Seems wrong.
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Also, something notable this points out is there's absolutely no reason to spam small charged shots, because you can do a better job by switching to blaster (which has unlimited ammo, projectiles that move twice as fast AND does 2 points more damage per second!).
The absolute minimum charge (100ms) is indeed a bit weaker than blaster, tho charging for 270ms (~max dmg from 1 ammo) makes it significantly more powerful (24dmg/0.77s = 31 dps) and about equal to luci secondary.
On this note, is it actually possible to get a varied amound of damage from one ammo? Seems wrong.
It is correct. You do get a varied amount of damage within each charged ammo. For example, if you charge the lucifer as minimal as possible while consuming 10 ammo you won't even kill an egg with one shot.