I DO however agree with what you said on the pulse rifle, it does nothing superior that any cheaper weapon can do better.
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/photos/images/list/000/142/390/not-sure-if-trolling-or-just-really-stupid-thumb.jpg)I DO however agree with what you said on the pulse rifle, it does nothing superior that any cheaper weapon can do better.
I don't think you're using the pulse rifle correctly. With a battery pack, you have the same amount of ammo as a lasgun and a chaingun, while clearly outperforming both weapons. You have the precision of the lasgun due to the lack of spread, and double damage per second. Unlike the chaingun, you don't suffer from absurd amounts of recoil and you can refill it at repeaters since it's an energy weapon. Since the pulse rifle's shots aren't hitscan, you can still manage to hurt things while dodging around if you're in an area heavily packed with aliens and their buildings. That's the point of the pulse rifle: dealing with lots of things in tightly packed areas at variable ranges. It's a rush weapon and it's more versatile than the flamer or painsaw, both of which will not save you from being swarmed by aliens because they don't have the range of the pulse rifle.
while i dont really have any suggestions for "fixing" this, i'll end here. it just annoyed me to no end to see trem using flawed balance like this, a balance issue not present in the original game trem is modded from.and unfortunately, just a few relatively simple tweaks will not yield a game balance of Q3's quality. Tremulous' game logic design is seriously flawed from many professional perspectives, and it cannot be significantly helped without designing a new game logic from scratch. (u're not the first one to notice this.)
this is something that has been greatly irritating me recently. most games (including default Q3) have 0 one kit ko weapons.
and unfortunately, just a few relatively simple tweaks will not yield a game balance of Q3's quality. Tremulous' game logic design is seriously flawed from many professional perspectives, and it cannot be significantly helped without designing a new game logic from scratch. (u're not the first one to notice this.)
i think part of this may be because human weapons have a lot of "role overlap". what do i use for mid to close range combat, a flamer or shotgun? are the relatively minor advantages of the lasgun different enough from the rifle? what is the point of the pulse rifle? (especially as "rocketjumping" is in.... no plasma climbing?)
human weapons tend to come in four dichotomous flavors - mid to close range vs mid to far range, and kills less than mara with one shot vs kills less than mara in more than one shot. as i said, there is quite a bit of overlap. for example, a shotgun and a MD are indistinguishable at close range.
The weapons are different in urbanterrorLast I checked LR300 and M4 were exactly they same. Though, for some reason, having the same stats, they felt different. LR300 is still the most popular weapon, but that doesn't change the fact someone actually uses M4.
There's only one weapon I don't have much use for, and that's the shotty.I am dissapoint. :(
Railgun was insta-kill w/o any armor.you need to play q3 again. both require two hits. this is why you get a "medal" for two direct railshots in a row. granted it's two hits to kill from a fresh spawn, but it makes a difference.
If you know how to use rocket launcher, it's also an insta-kill.
Not sure what the point of your post is, because there are no "1 hit KO" weapons in Tremulous. Each attack can be dodged in a different way, and if you're dying a lot it generally means you don't understand the game mechanics of GPP. Following your logic, if you see a dretch with 5 HP and you shoot it with your rifle, the rifle becomes a "1 hit KO" weapon.
is this Q3 or R6? R6, asyou say, is more deadly all around. if we're taking the "hardcore" or "realistic" approach to damage, please adjust all other weapons and attacks i did not list in my op to be more deadly. as it stands, either a weapon/attack is super effective, or it flat out takes too long to get a kill.this is something that has been greatly irritating me recently. most games (including default Q3) have 0 one kit ko weapons.and unfortunately, just a few relatively simple tweaks will not yield a game balance of Q3's quality. Tremulous' game logic design is seriously flawed from many professional perspectives, and it cannot be significantly helped without designing a new game logic from scratch. (u're not the first one to notice this.)
You'll have to expound upon this. I'm sure that there are some things less than completely balanced about tremulous, but the topic's complaint is far from reasonable. I personally really enjoyed the early Rainbow 6 games (competitively), and COD4's hardcore mode looks quite nice, although I haven't had the opportunity to play it. Both of these games feature 1-hit kill weapons, and the weaker weapons in those settings require 6 hits at most. Another major Q3 game, Urban Terror, features the SR8, which will usually 1-hit kill. The only recent and well-known competitive FPS game that I am aware of that doesn't have any 1-hit kill weapons (I won't count vehicles here I guess) is halo. Of course, I am mostly unaware of commercial games, so forgive me if I missed a few other decent titles.i think part of this may be because human weapons have a lot of "role overlap". what do i use for mid to close range combat, a flamer or shotgun? are the relatively minor advantages of the lasgun different enough from the rifle? what is the point of the pulse rifle? (especially as "rocketjumping" is in.... no plasma climbing?)
human weapons tend to come in four dichotomous flavors - mid to close range vs mid to far range, and kills less than mara with one shot vs kills less than mara in more than one shot. as i said, there is quite a bit of overlap. for example, a shotgun and a MD are indistinguishable at close range.
Kharnov once said that all of the human weapons have overlap, they all do damage. But I find it odd that people keep putting the rifle and the lasgun together as being too similar. Sure, they are the most similar weapons in the game, but the rifle is free, while you actually have to pay credits for the lasgun, which does less damage. I'd take this as evidence that the lasgun's defining feature, that you don't have to reload it, makes a difference. To be fair this is shared with the chaingun, lucifer cannon, and painsaw, but I hardly think you can make a case that those weapons are similar to the lasgun. Finally, I'd like to bring urbanterror up again. The weapons are different in urbanterror, but its weapons are far less varied than in tremulous. Why is having varied weapons even strictly necessary anyways? Necessary for balance?
I won't argue on the flamer. While I disagree with you somewhat, it was subject to a recent buff and I really don't have enough knowledge of the game to give you the best answer. Finally, as a nitpick: the luci can kill adv-goons in 1 shot. Its a BFG.
Anyhow, I don't really see your point RAKninja. Why exactly does 1HKO = unbalanced? Especially when both teams have their fair share of quick kills.well, humans have at least twice as many possibilities for a oneshot. that's not balanced. it's not balanced that some fuck with no ability to aim and a MD can mouseover an egg, and oneshot dretches as fast as they spawn. it's not balanced in that a team of marginally organised humans can set up a tent at the end of a hall, and with the right weapon setup, be completely unassailable, and kill anything that peeks around the corner (these humans are spamming, not waiting for aliens to show themselves) the very instant a pixel of their hitbox extends past said corner.
if you think the pulse rifle is that lacking in worth, you probably just suck with it.not at all. however, it cannot be stated that the pulse rifle outperforms the chaingun. furthermore, in reply to
Since the pulse rifle's shots aren't hitscan, you can still manage to hurt things while dodging around if you're in an area heavily packed with aliens and their buildings.: as if hitscan weapons weren't any more fit for the same case...
I don't think you're using the pulse rifle correctly. With a battery pack, you have the same amount of ammo as a lasgun and a chaingun, while clearly outperforming both weapons. You have the precision of the lasgun due to the lack of spread, and double damage per second. Unlike the chaingun, you don't suffer from absurd amounts of recoil and you can refill it at repeaters since it's an energy weapon. Since the pulse rifle's shots aren't hitscan, you can still manage to hurt things while dodging around if you're in an area heavily packed with aliens and their buildings. That's the point of the pulse rifle: dealing with lots of things in tightly packed areas at variable ranges. It's a rush weapon and it's more versatile than the flamer or painsaw, both of which will not save you from being swarmed by aliens because they don't have the range of the pulse rifle.
The pulse rifle's most useful purpose is sniping alien base structures, although it's great up close too.
Kharnov is absolutely right, if you think the pulse rifle is that lacking in worth, you probably just suck with it. I use it often and it's worth 400 creds for sure, though weapon values in this game are really fucked now in the broad scope if you look at the flamer. That shit needs to be changed.
well, humans have at least twice as many possibilities for a oneshot. that's not balanced. it's not balanced that some fuck with no ability to aim and a MD can mouseover an egg, and oneshot dretches as fast as they spawn. it's not balanced in that a team of marginally organised humans can set up a tent at the end of a hall, and with the right weapon setup, be completely unassailable, and kill anything that peeks around the corner (these humans are spamming, not waiting for aliens to show themselves) the very instant a pixel of their hitbox extends past said corner.
it's not balanced that a human has but to buy larmor and a helm and be nearly immune to oneshots, while an alien MUST get a rant (as you guys pointed out, not even adv goon is safe) i'm not sure about my evo to creds conversion, but that does not look equivalent.
furthermore, it's just not fun. while someone who can aim and has a MD, like you for example, might be having a barrel of laughs at their clay-dretch range, it is no fun for someone on the other side. telling someone to "get better and learn to dodge" is no help, especially against someone who can aim as you do, and kill a dretch with nearly every shot in your MD.
and before i continue, yes i do know that aliens win slightly more total games. i think this may be due to the losing human team not knowing when to stop camping and start attacking, as so much human equipment is conducive to camping.i have a different theory: mostly, n00bs can't handle controlling aliens, so they join the humans.
well, humans have at least twice as many possibilities for a oneshot. that's not balanced.
furthermore, it's just not fun. while someone who can aim and has a MD, like you for example, might be having a barrel of laughs at their clay-dretch range, it is no fun for someone on the other side. telling someone to "get better and learn to dodge" is no help, especially against someone who can aim as you do, and kill a dretch with nearly every shot in your MD.
RAKninja, while I can completely appreciate your lengthy post and the thought you put into it, there are some glaring faults of logic.first paragraph - spawn into new game. gotta get the drop on someone so you are not vulnerable dretch long. doh, there was a human at the end of that hall. spawn again. hmmm, that human has killed ALL my teammates, looking at the killspam, better flank him. oh, wait, the hall he's at the end of only has one other approach, another long hall he has but to flick his wrist to cover. oh great, HIS team has reached him, and one of them got me. spawn as dretch. hey wait, someone got creds enough for SG or MD and is camping the eggs, i spawn than instantly am 3rd in the que again, shame on me for not giving the base as much attention as it needs!
You're being incredibly biased. It's perfectly balanced that someone can take potshots at new spawns from an unprotected egg/node. You might say that it's easier for humans to pull this off than it is aliens. Well I say it's easier to defend the bombsite than it is to assault it. Imbalance? No. Alien bases need more attention, it's a fact of the game.
Humans are more susceptible to oneshots at stages one and two than aliens (assuming even stages). At stage three, I'd say that the amount of oneshot luci kills in any given game are A) negligibly few in number and B) lucky shots. I think that does away with any claims of "imbalance" because one team has "better weapons".
You are mistaking balance with handicap. If this was at the beginning if your post I would've stopped right there because it's such an idiotic statement. Of course it's not fun when you're losing. Nor is it fun when you face an opponent that is A) much better than you or B) better equipped. If you're in a situation where you're being smashed, then it is not solely the fault of "imbalance". Multiple things play in to getting your arse kicked, those being A) joining late B) being outclassed C) being outskilled. If you join late, your bitching is invalidated because the game is stacked against you. If you're outclassed (dretch vs MD) your bitching is invalidated because MDs are better than dretches (oh no, imba, right?). And if you're outskilled, suck it up. The fourth thing that plays in to getting your arse kicked is, of course, imbalance, but I propose that in any dretch vs MD situation, the dretch did something wrong (didn't play to the best of their ability/made a mistake so nerfed their ability) or just isn't good enough.
Hey, evolve/buy equipment, it's a pretty vital part of the game!
it's not balanced that a human has but to buy larmor and a helm and be nearly immune to oneshots, while an alien MUST get a rant (as you guys pointed out, not even adv goon is safe) i'm not sure about my evo to creds conversion, but that does not look equivalent.
how about this situation, as i've been seeing it quite a bit recently. you say that choosing one option limits you. sure it does, till you get a teammate. how to overcome MD being too accurate for up close work? bring a buddy with a SG, that way, nothing short of a goon can stop you, and it better be a fairly decent goon at that. you two will kill perhaps even maras with one shot each... no more than two. and those are s1 weapons. add in helmet and larmor, you're pretty much invulnerable except running out of ammo, or any good goons that happen to be playing. at least until something you cannot oneshot - the tyrant, is available.well, humans have at least twice as many possibilities for a oneshot. that's not balanced.
I don't follow. No matter how many options a human has, he can only pick one of them at a time. Surely, what matters is whether the individual options balance against the enemy's, taking into account the cost of each choice and the situations where the weapon is effective. Also I feel as though aliens have plenty enough choice when it comes to movement around the map which the much slower humans don't have so much control over.
So far, you have only given examples that are already out of the aliens favour for reasons outside game balance, as Plague Bringer has said. I still don't see an inherent problem with the high-risk scenarios that high-damage weapons create (in fact, that's what makes tremulous exciting).furthermore, it's just not fun. while someone who can aim and has a MD, like you for example, might be having a barrel of laughs at their clay-dretch range, it is no fun for someone on the other side. telling someone to "get better and learn to dodge" is no help, especially against someone who can aim as you do, and kill a dretch with nearly every shot in your MD.I must admit, I do enjoy the "clay-dretch range". I also enjoy facing such an opponent who makes me work hard as a dretch. In any case, I'm happy to recieve your compliments and I'm sorry if I've annoyed you with my frequent use of the massdriver.
if you do not know how oneshots are unbalancing, i invite you to play some team CTF in q3. not with me, mind you, i'm too rusty in q3... i'll keep trying to wallwalk and shit. but do it. play spaceCTF exclusively for a couple hours, for a couple of days. THEN you'll realise why oneshots are imbalancing.
first paragraph - spawn into new game. gotta get the drop on someone so you are not vulnerable dretch long. doh, there was a human at the end of that hall. spawn again. hmmm, that human has killed ALL my teammates, looking at the killspam, better flank him. oh, wait, the hall he's at the end of only has one other approach, another long hall he has but to flick his wrist to cover. oh great, HIS team has reached him, and one of them got me. spawn as dretch. hey wait, someone got creds enough for SG or MD and is camping the eggs, i spawn than instantly am 3rd in the que again, shame on me for not giving the base as much attention as it needs!
second paragraph - more susceptible? are you forgetting that human weapons have range? are you forgetting SG, MD (one hit for dretches, 2 for basi) PS (not "one shot" but damn near instant under mara at least) are all s1 weapons? are you forgetting that it takes about a seconds worth of riflefire to kill a dretch? are you forgetting that humans have a specific target to hit, but aliens take the same damage everywhere?
third paragraph. i have fun while losing. so long as the battle is a hard fought one. when both teams reach s3 and there is no one single player on either side carrying the rest of the team, that's a good game to me. win or loss does not matter.
the dretch did something wrong? by spawning? i dont follow your logic there. i also dont get "outclassed" as even a bsuit can dodge faster than a dretch can move.
first paragraph - spawn into new game. gotta get the drop on someone so you are not vulnerable dretch long. doh, there was a human at the end of that hall. spawn again. hmmm, that human has killed ALL my teammates, looking at the killspam, better flank him. oh, wait, the hall he's at the end of only has one other approach, another long hall he has but to flick his wrist to cover. oh great, HIS team has reached him, and one of them got me. spawn as dretch. hey wait, someone got creds enough for SG or MD and is camping the eggs, i spawn than instantly am 3rd in the que again, shame on me for not giving the base as much attention as it needs!
second paragraph - more susceptible? are you forgetting that human weapons have range? are you forgetting SG, MD (one hit for dretches, 2 for basi) PS (not "one shot" but damn near instant under mara at least) are all s1 weapons? are you forgetting that it takes about a seconds worth of riflefire to kill a dretch? are you forgetting that humans have a specific target to hit, but aliens take the same damage everywhere?
the dretch did something wrong? by spawning? i dont follow your logic there. i also dont get "outclassed" as even a bsuit can dodge faster than a dretch can move.
how about this situation, as i've been seeing it quite a bit recently. you say that choosing one option limits you. sure it does, till you get a teammate. how to overcome MD being too accurate for up close work? bring a buddy with a SG, that way, nothing short of a goon can stop you, and it better be a fairly decent goon at that. you two will kill perhaps even maras with one shot each... no more than two. and those are s1 weapons. add in helmet and larmor, you're pretty much invulnerable except running out of ammo, or any good goons that happen to be playing. at least until something you cannot oneshot - the tyrant, is available.
movement - i've bitched about this before. with the correct application of the luci, and medpack (preferably on a bsuit so you conserve max HP) you can lucijump. lucijumping might actually beat out alien manoeuvrability - to doesent fuck your view up disoriently, like wallwalk. it's faster than pounce, or any other form of alien movement. oh, and dont forget about the jetpack, giving humans complete mobility in a 3d area of space, unlike wallwalk, goon pounces, trample, and mara hop. oh yea, and humans can dodge at 1000 ups. that's 400 more ups than dretch runspeed, and 200 more ups than a dretch can make his first strafejump (admittedly, i havent even attempted a circlejump, the distorted FoV fucks me up)
and nux, you dont annoy me much.... just kill the damn egg and get it over with.
Oh noes, evolve./thread
First of all, I want you to drop the comparisons with other games (Q3). Tremulous is not Q3, and it is not even similar to Q3 (unless you consider having teams and guns a similarity). You cannot tell me that X in Y game is imbalanced, therefore X in inherently imbalanced in games A, B, and Z, too. It simply does not work that way.
There are plenty of things in this situation that have resulted in alien team losing, and the category that they fall under is not "imbalance", it's "human error". AKA fucking up AKA outclassed AKA outgunned AKA not good enough AKAnotu. If "that human" has killed every single one of your teammates, your teammates fucked up. By the time they get an MD you should have a mara or a goon. If you didn't, it's because you sucked. Not because rifle vs dretch is imba. The same goes for humans. If you don't have shotguns by goon, you sucked. No, it's not about oneshotting, it's about killing potential. You'll find that the MD's is minimal, and the goon's is high. Yes, it is unfortunate when you are the player meant to carry your team, but your teammates contribute too much to helping the enemy so you get into a situation where you get outgunned, but that is not "imbalance". That is "your team sucks". Quit trying to blame shitty playing on imbalance.
I have been one shotted by a goon more than an MD or shotty. Also, stop bitching about 2 shot basis or one second of fire if you argument is supposedly about one shot imbalance. Either bitch about one shot imbalance or bitch about high damage output weapons, but not both. You're confusing your arguments and weakening them. "Oh, oneshots are imba, and the evidence I'm going to use for this is 2shot basis." That's bullshit.
No, I'm not forgetting that humans have range. Are you forgetting that, when playing aliens, the goal is to stay out of sight until you can bite them?
Also, you're assuming that "different" is inherently bad. Yes, humans and aliens have different hitboxes. Yes, that could lend itself to imbalance. Does it? No. Much of your argument is based on playing classes poorly. Dretches should not rush down halls at anything. Basilisks should not be seen. The marauder is the first pure offense class after the dretch, and even then it's more powerful as a base race weapon. Goons are an extremely potent oneshot weapon. I'd say they're more effective than the MD, because as you've said the MD can oneshot only one class (weapon), whereas the goon has the potential to one shot any weapon the human has.
If you join an in-progress game, you're at a disadvantage. That's what i said. If you join an in-progress game, you can't expect balance to be had. You're outgunned. Also, if you suck, you can't expect balance to be had. You're outskilled.
To end: you're aware that certain tactical decisions (pushing up a hall as opposed to an open space) lend themselves to certain teams, right? And that certain tactical decisions are better than others? That an MD will have a hay day in arachnid halls but not in the tighter areas? That not every situation is good for every weapon or alien? If you play your alien or weapon right, you'll learn that just because the human has the potential to one-shot doesn't mean he will. The MD can oneshot only one alien, and the luci can oneshot only when given time. You're bitching about two weapons being OP because A) you confront them in situations that aren't favorable to you, or B) your opponent is lucky and kills you in a situation that should be favorable to you. Both of those things happen in every game (and real life). They are facts that you need to get used to. Learn the game, and play to the strengths of your class - oneshots won't matter.
tell me, how would you have handled what was happening that morning in nivius, where you were camping our eggs (and was most of the way there to do it by the time i even loaded ingame)> i'd be interested to know, especially as i, sadly, was the best player on the alien team. spawning as a dretch only to instantly be MD'ed is no fun, and there is no way around it that i could see from our time together there. my teammates did nothing but feed harder than me, i at least could get to cover once in a while.
"BLAH TREM AND Q3 ARE THE SAME GAME BECAUSE THE SAME ENGINE LOL"]fist statement is laughable. you DO realise that the humans are basically just reskinned q3 weapons for the most part..... right? you do see that little console message now in again telling you you might have "built ioquake3 with a buggy compiler"... right? how is trem different than vanilla q3? 1 you have to charge the rocket launcher. 2 the plasma rifle does not have splash. 3 you can only zoom with the railgun. 4 you have to reload most things. 5 you get a flamethrower instead of a grenade launcher. 6 buildables. 7 armor does not decrease. 8 aliens have a wide range of HP.... but no armor. 9 wallwalk. 10 location based damage. 11 oh, a dodge button. (AND PLENTY FUCKING MORE. i think that's about it. the weapons are for the most part the same.
If you really think aliens can't "gang up", watch any scrim (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/18542862/demos/cad1.dm_70) and you'll see that it is very much possible with every class available. It tends to happen quite often in public games as well. I at least constantly get dretch-stormed on the official servers, or have to try to survive 2-3 goons/marauders/basilisks at once. (You can skip 17 minutes of basically nothing in the demo with a demo.cfg (http://pastebin.com/WH7iMsyr).)
I understand you feel attached to trem, but there really is no reason to get insulting and juvenile because i voiced my opinion and made a suggestion. if you are truly so offended that you feel you must make personal attacks, perhaps you need to take a break from the internet for a little while.
I'm done here. I can't listen to your ridiculous preaching about Tremulous and Quake 3 being "roughly the same game". The weapon choice is slightly comparable. The weapons are not.
And yes, duty calls (http://xkcd.com/386/).That it does.
Just because hitting your teammates becomes a possibility in gang attacks with larger classes doesn't mean you shouldn't gang up anyways. The way that's being brought up here, it's just an excuse for not knowing how to properly maneuver yourself around the location and the players in the combat situation, as well as having no confidence in accuracy. And anyone who's played Trem for a decent amount of time with their eyes open SHOULD know this. Watch a scrim with clans that are good sometime, and you'll see that people can easily throw 4 goons at a human group and none of the goons end up hitting anyone else. Granted, it is sometimes a better strategy to hang back and NOT attack, even while between enemies and in range, if only to allow the scenario to settle down so you have better chances of cleaning up. But I've found this to be extremely rare.
I will say this, however: Based on location, there's a breaking point (in PUBLIC games) at which the potential for the aliens to win combat situations goes down with every additional alien that joins the team and goes out of his base. The aliens DO require space, while the humans do not. More humans means more potential to kill and win. This applies only to public games only though in which it's a hopeless endeavor to control the movements of the entire large team. In a scrimmage or match, you have no excuse for not organizing your team in such a way that you can still kill a group of 8-10 humans, or more.
I understand you feel attached to trem, but there really is no reason to get insulting and juvenile because i voiced my opinion and made a suggestion. if you are truly so offended that you feel you must make personal attacks, perhaps you need to take a break from the internet for a little while.QuoteI'm done here. I can't listen to your ridiculous preaching about Tremulous and Quake 3 being "roughly the same game". The weapon choice is slightly comparable. The weapons are not.
Heh. Dude, that isn't a personal attack, that is him saying that your argument is idotic. He is right. And yes, duty calls (http://xkcd.com/386/).
and again, explicitly - "RAK does not like any 1HKO. not taking them, not giving them"
this is something that has been greatly irritating me recently. most games (including default Q3) have 0 one kit ko weapons. please correct me if i am wrong about any of this next part -You got some of them wrong as well, im gonna shove them all at you at the same time without reading other replies... grenade does 310 damage, thats all aliens except tyrant. But somehow i managed to instant kill a rant with a nade by putting one on its head, it having full hp. Luci max does somewhere around 300 in gpp and 256 in 1.1. MD is meant to be a sniper. Shotgun, the spread, somewhat i think got wider, and i find it harder to hit than 1.1. All pellets does 56/55 in gpp. Oh well. Soo much for balance...
goon - first alien available that can oneshot a helmetless human, with a chomp, or armorless human, with a full pounce.
rant - can oneshot helmetless humans with maul, and "near instantly" kill armorless humans with trample
shotgun - can oneshot dretches from down a hall or across the room, 2-shot basi's
MD - oneshots dretches, two for basi
nade - it oneshots dretches, basi's, perhaps even maras, but is more understandable, as a single use weapon.
luci - oneshots up to maras with a charged shot, easily oneshots below maras with splash that deceptively extends far past the particle effect.
Yeah, but you're terrible at the game, as well as highly inexperienced, making your opinion on this matter worthless to the game's development.then tell me why 1HKOs are an integral game element that must be preserved.
Move to Off Topic.
RAK, you're trying to convince me and everyone else here that all ioQ3 based games are essentially Q3, just because their engine is the same. Do you know what a game engine is? American McGee's Alice is Q3. It's nothing like Return to Castle Wolfenstein. Or Heavy Metal FAKK. Or Iron Grip: Warlord. Damage values, bullet speeds, armor, health, spread, movement speed, weapon type, splash damage. All these things are what differentiate games. To say that Tremulous and Q3 are basically the same is akin to saying CoD and Q3 are roughly the same game. Or, fuck, Deus Ex and Adventure Pinball: Forgotten Island.
Also, stop being so fucking anal about everything I say. I'm not hiding insults. If I tell you that "you fucked up and the enemy now has better equipment than you", I don't mean "you're whining because you suck". I mean "you fucked up and the enemy now has better equipment than you". If I want to insult you I'll insult you directly, dillweed.
You yourself have been pretty much the only guy going offtopic here, rambling about spawnkilling, Quake 3, how to dretch, whatnot...
It was told to you many many posts ago, that after getting kills, you get better equipment via evolving/buying equipment/staging. It is a pretty important and fun part of this game and in almost all cases defines the outcome of a game.
Shall I repeat this information to you in the next thread page again?
i ask again, why can we not go the way of other squad-based-tactical-first-person-shooters, and the parent game of tremulous itself, and avoid 1HKO?
or am i going to have to ask you why 1HKO are such an important gameplay element that they should be preserved yet again?
As far as I know, other squad-based tactical FPSes have in general not avoided 1HKO, as I have stated before. You can scroll up if you need to read it again.One hit kills are fine in moderation, its supposed to be a special thing :3
Weapons capable of 1 hit kills are an important gameplay element of tremulous. First and foremost: the dretch dies very quickly to concentrated weapons fire. There is no way to get around this without drastically changing the game. Any weapon that does 25 hp damage in one shot can kill the dretch in 1 hit. That is not much. However, it is the very essence of the dretch that it is fast, small, and has to use its agility to survive, rather than its large health reserves. It is equally essential to the nature of tremulous that other aliens, the dragoons, and the tyrant, are able to take hits, due to their size and style of play. Note that this is a deliberate contrast with the dretch.
Furthermore, any weapons capable of taking on dragoons, must be capable of dealing sufficient damage to kill dretches very quickly. Decreasing the rate of fire of a weapon means it needs to have more damage, capable of killing larger aliens, such as basilisks, marauders, or even dragoons in 1 or a few hits. Increasing the rate of fire (lasgun and pulse rifle are this to a very moderate amount), however, can actually make it more effective against dretches, for those who aren't quite as practiced with clay dretches. The variety in weapons that follow both philosophies, and not merely the high rate of fire philosophy, helps gives the human weapons in tremulous identity and flavor, in addition to providing interesting tactical choices and game balance.
You might consider answering the question, which has been asked of you before, why are 1 hit kills unbalanced? Or do you believe this to be simply unfun, despite being balanced?
millions of people who play tremulouswait what
RAK is right, humans can be immune to ANY one hit kill by spending a mere 160 credits; which is not even equivalent to 1 alien evo (with aliens having a max of 9 and humans a max of 2000, its safe to assume that one alien evo is equivalent to 222.22 human credits)Lucifer equipment costs at least 760 credits (in a typical situation 800 or 860, + nade 200), is a projectile, needs to be charged up, is relatively easy to dodge. Sure you can make it sound dramatic with analysing these kind of "statistics" in a very grotesque way, but no, it's not that good of a weapon as implied.
Aliens are potentially vulnerable to one hit kills as a granger/advgranger/dretch/basi/advbasi/mara/advmara/goon/advgoon. So in order to be safe from one hit kills as aliens you HAVE to spend 5 evos (equivalent to 1111 or so credits).
So...
Aliens have to spend 694.44% more credits than humans do in order to be safe from one hit kills.
Nope, one evo is 222 creditsHas it changed in GPP? I'm very confident it was 175 in 1.1.
you stage and get equipment, the enemy does the same. only the tyrant is 100% immune to 1HKO, while it only takes larmor and a helmet for the humans. getting consistently oneshotted is not fun, and consistently making them, to me, is about as fun as playing a point and click flash game.Alright, RAK, yet again, if you are "consistently" getting one hit KOs, your enemy is doing something wrong, and if your enemy is "consistently" getting one hit KOs, YOU are doing something wrong. Stop trying to blame shitty playing/tactics on balanced game mechanics.
i ask again, why can we not go the way of other squad-based-tactical-first-person-shooters, and the parent game of tremulous itself, and avoid 1HKO?
or am i going to have to ask you why 1HKO are such an important gameplay element that they should be preserved yet again?
IIRC in GPP you still get 175c/1evo from freefundsIt's 180 credits, equal to one shot down fresh dretch.
As a rule of thumb, in a First Person Shooter, the quicker you kill your opponent, the better.
So one hit kills are the absolute fucking bees knees in FPS games, An area in which aliens are rather disadvantaged i must say.
You might consider answering the question, which has been asked of you before, why are 1 hit kills unbalanced? Or do you believe this to be simply unfun, despite being balanced?
However, the lucifer cannon, in general, *does not* kill aliens instantly, except dretches. There are two main factors that contribute to this, the lucifer cannon charge time, and the lucifer cannon's shot speed. The shot speed of the lucifer cannon is huge here. Firstly, it limits the effective range of the lucifer cannon, given an opponent who will dodge. Secondly, it means that an "instakill" will take some time to complete, up to a second, given a resonable range. The charge time is also very important. The human has to know that the alien is coming, and when. To ambush an alien, the human has to know a lot more about the surrounding situation than an alien, who has a radar that updates constantly, and enough mobility, to make the human radar of limited use, given the degree of awareness required (although definitely not useless). Furthermore, the lucifer cannon makes a beeping sound when it is ready to kill a dragoon. If an alien is ambushed, it is in most cases, the aliens own damn fault. If the alien is aware of the lucifer, and holds back, the alien now has a few seconds of relative safety to approach the human. If at this point the alien is killed, it is far from instant. If the human is unaware of the alien, the human will have to spend the first few seconds charging as shot, also eliminating any advantage of killing speed.
And I think you are crazy if you are going basilisk because of its awesome HP reserves.but it does have awesome HP compared to dretch. so much so that i can ambush some groups of humans with a direct frontal assault, kill one, and get away. then again, i just plain like basi.
So tell me, specifically, why the mass driver, shotgun, (ie. the favorite anti-dretch weaponry) and/or (especially) the lucifer cannon is unbalanced. I'd love to do a few 1vs1 rounds of mara vs luci to "prove" my point.please refer to first post.
furthermore, no alien or human can move faster than a player can aim. there is no real limit as to how fast anyone can look around, but there ARE limits to how fast one might move.Thats why you dont run in a straight line.....
FYI tyrant charge one-shots everything, your 160 and even 400 credit armours as well.trample damage is only applied when the tyrant is in contact with the human. it has knockback. so trample is like rifle vs dretch, not 1hko, but near instant kill. near instant isnt really my issue, one single hit scoring a kill is.
Thats why you dont run in a straight line.....there is no other way to move. movement, no matter the direction or the eventual target is always (in real life as it is in games) from point "a" to point "b". in addition to this simple fact, tremulous is in 3d. not every axis of movement available at any given moment will move your hitbox out from under an observer's crosshair. sure, erratic movement can confound the aim of newer players, but all they have to learn is to not reflexively click "fire" when making an adjustment to aim. that's basic marksmanship, and one of the easier things to learn in any FPS.
trample damage is only applied when the tyrant is in contact with the human. it has knockback. so trample is like rifle vs dretch, not 1hko, but near instant kill. near instant isnt really my issue, one single hit scoring a kill is.
there is no other way to move. movement, no matter the direction or the eventual target is always (in real life as it is in games) from point "a" to point "b". in addition to this simple fact, tremulous is in 3d. not every axis of movement available at any given moment will move your hitbox out from under an observer's crosshair. sure, erratic movement can confound the aim of newer players, but all they have to learn is to not reflexively click "fire" when making an adjustment to aim. that's basic marksmanship, and one of the easier things to learn in any FPS.So the Praetorian was balanced because could be killed in an instant? ::)
one quarter second of aim should not be enough to reward a player with the potential for immunity from 1HKO till s3.
what i would like to see more than a simple balance fix to remove all but tyrant and luci oneshots, is a system of multiple damage types (possible since doom2) that would make certain weapons more or less effective on the alien classes. something like the painsaw doing more damage to structure than players, advanced classes gaining an "armor" qualifier that takes reduced damage from some weapons, but increased from others. so, for example, a MD does more damage over time to a goon than a basi.
a non-trem example would be how the same system worked in AvP2. the large, armored, praetorian was near impossible to kill with small calibre weapons like the pulse rifle, but the smart gun took it out in an instant.
but that's a little too much to ask for at this stage in the game. i'd be more than satisfied in bringing the weapons back to their original balance.
trample damage is only applied when the tyrant is in contact with the human. it has knockback. so trample is like rifle vs dretch, not 1hko, but near instant kill. near instant isnt really my issue, one single hit scoring a kill is.
First of all, none of this bullshit. You were using "near instant kill dretches" and "two hit basis" as examples for your imbalance claims a handful of posts ago. Don't fuck with your argument when it's convenient for you.there is no other way to move. movement, no matter the direction or the eventual target is always (in real life as it is in games) from point "a" to point "b". in addition to this simple fact, tremulous is in 3d. not every axis of movement available at any given moment will move your hitbox out from under an observer's crosshair. sure, erratic movement can confound the aim of newer players, but all they have to learn is to not reflexively click "fire" when making an adjustment to aim. that's basic marksmanship, and one of the easier things to learn in any FPS.So the Praetorian was balanced because could be killed in an instant? ::)
one quarter second of aim should not be enough to reward a player with the potential for immunity from 1HKO till s3.
what i would like to see more than a simple balance fix to remove all but tyrant and luci oneshots, is a system of multiple damage types (possible since doom2) that would make certain weapons more or less effective on the alien classes. something like the painsaw doing more damage to structure than players, advanced classes gaining an "armor" qualifier that takes reduced damage from some weapons, but increased from others. so, for example, a MD does more damage over time to a goon than a basi.
a non-trem example would be how the same system worked in AvP2. the large, armored, praetorian was near impossible to kill with small calibre weapons like the pulse rifle, but the smart gun took it out in an instant.
but that's a little too much to ask for at this stage in the game. i'd be more than satisfied in bringing the weapons back to their original balance.
Have you noticed that all community members who have commented have disagreed with you? There is a point where persistence becomes ignorance, and you are nearing that point.
Also, what would the weapons "original" balance be? You mean their balance in 1.1? For the last time, you do realize that these weapons are unique to Tremulous, right? Yes, stats for some weapons may have been changed rather than written from scratch, but it doesn't make a difference, because they are different.
Then again, lucifer damages only as well when the human is close enough to the alien to actually hit it, and has a charge time, so I'd say it counts as a near instant kill.FYI tyrant charge one-shots everything, your 160 and even 400 credit armours as well.trample damage is only applied when the tyrant is in contact with the human. it has knockback. so trample is like rifle vs dretch, not 1hko, but near instant kill. near instant isnt really my issue, one single hit scoring a kill is.
Then again, lucifer damages only as well when the human is close enough to the alien to actually hit it, and has a charge time, so I'd say it counts as a near instant kill.FYI tyrant charge one-shots everything, your 160 and even 400 credit armours as well.trample damage is only applied when the tyrant is in contact with the human. it has knockback. so trample is like rifle vs dretch, not 1hko, but near instant kill. near instant isnt really my issue, one single hit scoring a kill is.
Original balance of Quake 3 ? I'm sorry, Tremulous is not Quake 3. It's a quite ridiculous claim. Where's the lightning gun? Where's a slow-firing, charged up weapon like lucifer cannon? Where's chaingun? Massdriver only one-shots dretches, not anywhere near the power of railgun. How about lasgun? Flamethrower?
I'm not sure where you're going with that. Do you want to perhaps remove the weapons that aren't nothing like Q3 and add the Q3 weapons instead? How would you balance weapons that clearly aren't in Q3? Or do you just like to think that all the games Q3 engine has spanned are one and same, like Doom3, Urban Terror, Medal of Honor: AA/PA, Smokin' Guns, Soldier of Fortune II, Call of Duty, Star Wars Jedi Knight 2?
i'd be more than satisfied in bringing the weapons back to their original balance.So, with your twisted idea that Q3 == Trem == Urban Terror == any Q3-derived game, and that "original balance", meaning Quake 3, should be restored, you'd like massdriver to be like the rail gun? 100 damage a hit? Shotgun deal 110 damage at most? I don't understand your point at all and how it would make the game better...
while i dont really have any suggestions for "fixing" this, i'll end here. it just annoyed me to no end to see trem using flawed balance like this, a balance issue not present in the original game trem is modded from.
It's actually pretty easy to remove the possibility of one-hit kills from the lucifer cannon without doing much to it's effectiveness: Divide the charge time and the damage amount by X, where X is whatever the hell you like (greater than 1).Making it more spammy? Last I checked the devs decreased the speed of secondary shots for a reason.
goon - first alien available that can oneshot a helmetless human, with a chomp, or armorless human, with a full pounce.
rant - can oneshot helmetless humans with maul, and "near instantly" kill armorless humans with trample
shotgun - can oneshot dretches from down a hall or across the room, 2-shot basi's
MD - oneshots dretches, two for basi
nade - it oneshots dretches, basi's, perhaps even maras, but is more understandable, as a single use weapon.
luci - oneshots up to maras with a charged shot, easily oneshots below maras with splash that deceptively extends far past the particle effect.
a close runner up is the flamer, that while it does not kill instantly, you can run around spraying all over the place and be reasonably sure that anything mara and below that you graze is dead, or close to it.
... bring a buddy with a SG, that way, nothing short of a goon can stop you, and it better be a fairly decent goon at that. you two will kill perhaps even maras with one shot each... no more than two. and those are s1 weapons. add in helmet and larmor, you're pretty much invulnerable except running out of ammo, or any good goons that happen to be playing. at least until something you cannot "oneshot" - the tyrant, is available.
meisseli:
there is also the shotgun, massdriver, and not instant but still close: the flamer and painsaw.
oneshot... anything.
Making it more spammy? Last I checked the devs decreased the speed of secondary shots for a reason.
You might consider answering the question, which has been asked of you before, why are 1 hit kills unbalanced? Or do you believe this to be simply unfun, despite being balanced?
unbalanced and unfun. unbalanced, because as the railgun the q3 developers decided that even in FFA "massdriver" 1HKO were unbalanced. and this was against 100HP + armor using entities, not armorless 25 hp targets.
did you know, at "best" the railgun would oneshot adv basi? it has never been able to oneshot a fresh spawn. it's been toned down from that, at release, to the current version, that can oneshot normal basi. and that is only because basi do not have 120 HP like a fresh q3 spawn.
not taking into account splash, spamability, and the "instant" secondary possible right after a primary shot. sure luci has drawbacks. everything does. i just think that "dies instantly because someone mouseover-ed you and clicked mouse1 exactly one time" should not be a drawback for anyone on any team.
it still does not address the imbalance of humans needing less than a full evo for 1HKO immunity, while aliens need to spend 5 for the same protection. being protected from oneshots allows you do deal damage a little longer, thus giving you an overall better chance of survival.
to elemanate the luci, and thus the threat of death or wrose, death of the base, an alien must get close, negating most of the drawbacks of luci at range, and all of the benefit of staying outside of radar range. as i said above, to plague, is it not possible to unleash a secondary shot immediately after releasing primary? isnt that like, i dont know, being able to swipe in the middle of rant charge, or goon pounce without chomp delay? i would also assume that good humans are going to charge their luci as i charge my rant, constantly, cancelling at full unless there is a target in range.
And this is the same situation where you get owned by mass drivers? You are so much better at basilisk that I am, why do you suck so much as a dretch?And I think you are crazy if you are going basilisk because of its awesome HP reserves.but it does have awesome HP compared to dretch. so much so that i can ambush some groups of humans with a direct frontal assault, kill one, and get away. then again, i just plain like basi.
So tell me, specifically, why the mass driver, shotgun, (ie. the favorite anti-dretch weaponry) and/or (especially) the lucifer cannon is unbalanced. I'd love to do a few 1vs1 rounds of mara vs luci to "prove" my point.please refer to first post.
Am I the only one who thinks that after 3 or more pages of repeating drama the devs still won't give a flying fuck? :)if nothing else, i feel better for voicing my opinion.
unless someone gets tired and locks the topic
yes, I hint at the 96% possibility of all your keystrokes being useless in terms of gameplay changing, be it for the bad or for the good
not attacking a point, don't shitstorm me please
sorry for getting in the way
if you can read this without magnification, you're either extremely awesome or have a 320x240 display resolution
I want their effects to be scaled back to the effects of the original. this means the rail...err... massdriver would take two shots to kill a fresh spawn (meaning: a dretch). q3 has been out for a long time, and it has two prior games in the series. that's a long time to find balance. we should build from the lessons they learned, not throw them away for the sake of "being different".
i find it doubtful that you have indeed read al of my posts. if you had, you would not bring up FO3 as an example, as i have indeed already voiced my opinion about gamebryo games in general, and FO3 in specific.
so, for clarity, "RAK defines a full game as a game that has its own custom engine, or changes the engine to be significantly different than the flagship title of the engine".
"mod" is a descriptive label, not a term with negative connotations. your drama filled invoking of the developers is senseless. as a modder and small-time coder myself, you are invoking me to tell me "fuck you", along with the trem team and everyone else who has ever modded.
adv goon and under dies in one shot of the luci.
if you want to include rant trample, which is not instant but close, then we allow comparisons of flamer and painsaw, as these are both the same kind of weapon. call them "extreme damage per second of contact" weapons. including those only strengthens my position
sg and md. two for basi indicates where it should be for dretch.Sorry, I have to ask, what is this an example of?
sg & md team - for less credits than it takes evos, humans can have a team that oneshots any dretch in their considerable range. in addition, they can twoshot anything less than a goon, the best thing available at s1. it takes more players and more evos to dislodge such a team than it takes to field one. if dretches tool more than one shot of each weapon, this situation would not be true.
there is quite a difference between "dies in one hit" to "dies very quickly". with "very quickly" there exists the possibility of avoiding some of the damage, and dealing some of your own. with "one hit" you just feed, with no possibility of earning some evos. thus keeping you dretch, and keeping the humans stocked with more MDs and SGs to keep up the carnage.
basi is balanced against MD and SG, it takes two shots. dretch needs the same. even if it survives the shot with only 1hp.Why is that? Why must the dretch be unbalanced at all? The dretch is weaker than the shotgun, after all, the shotgun costs credits. In fact, even a rifle is worth more than a dretch IIRC. Is a dretch balanced against a lucifer cannon? In my opinion, yes it is. But the game values them differently. Balance is far more than merely "RAK does not like 1HKOs, therefore they are unbalanced." I'm not sure if I'm making a caracature of your position or not, but please, give me something to work with, give me something more than mere "RAK does not like 1HKOs". Because if that is all you got, you have managed to put the most words to the most empty phrase I have yet seen outside of a religious debate :).
the complexity of even making oneshots on unarmored humans with rantswipe is comparable, i think, to oneshotting with the luci. especially against humans that know how to dance. i imagine this is comparable to a lucisuit taking on a dretch that knows his game.Well, here's a deal then, I'll be a rant, and you be a naked human, and we'll see what the complex of that is. Then you can be a helm+luci/bsuit+luci, and I'll be a marauder/goon, and we'll see how complex that is. I think you're being rediculous here, I call bullshit. Show it to me in-game, show me more than merely "RAK does not like 1HKOs".
when i was using the word instant in regards to luci secondary, i was referring to the ability to fire a secondary immediately after releasing a primary, adding 30 damage to the primary, and having its own splash. as there is, for all practical reasons, no delay in firing a secondary, you extend the 1hko factor of the primary by the same amount. what's the math like? how much charge do you need to deal enough damage -30 to kill a mara?
i beg to differ about the same protection. by spending less than an evo, a human can be protected by everything but rant trample. with creative use of the dodge system (and/or a luci) you can use the rantcharge to bounce you out of harm's way, and keep dealing damage. lucisplash rarely has the same beneficial effect.*sigh*, we are talking about how being a basilisk compares to the protection of larmor+helm. How does comparing the luci to the tyrant charge effect that comparison at all? The mostly similar correct comparison is that if you're a basilisk/larmor+rifle, you probably are going to have trouble taking on a tyrant/luci. Your comparison makes no sense whatsoever. Bring me something that isn't misdirection. You are arguing around the issue here. Do you have anything that can back up "RAK does not like 1HKOs".
as to luci cancelling, i had thought this related to switching to blaster retaining the charge of the luci, and not cancelling the charge itself.Doesn't work anymore.
the reason these weapons are imbalanced, as is goon pounce and chomp, is that they can kill a fresh spawn in a singular hit. roles aside, i am of the opinion that allowing the killing of fresh spawns with one, singular, hit is bad game balance. hell, swap dretch and basic basi HP, and reduce adv basi. that is more balanced than allowing 1hko on fresh spawns. at least, that way, you must choose to allow these things to oneshot you. i'm willing to except tyrant and luci from this, as they are s3 equipment, supposedly the ultimate.
the reason these weapons are imbalanced, as is goon pounce and chomp, is that they can kill a fresh spawn in a singular hit. roles aside, i am of the opinion that allowing the killing of fresh spawns with one, singular, hit is bad game balance. hell, swap dretch and basic basi HP, and reduce adv basi. that is more balanced than allowing 1hko on fresh spawns. at least, that way, you must choose to allow these things to oneshot you. i'm willing to except tyrant and luci from this, as they are s3 equipment, supposedly the ultimate.
i feel that if you remove all but s3 oneshots, less games would devolve into campfests. i feel it would foster more teamwork as it would require players to work together to kill things quickly. i feel it would remove the attraction of spawn camping, by making it a far more risky activity.
havent played urban terror to make the comparison, but it is a safe bet that most of its weapons are only reskinned and slightly modified from q3 base.Hahahahahahah...
If anyone here is able to host a server, I'd be happy to (maybe) attempt decompiling GPP, tweaking some values (weakening goon chomp and decreasing delay; weakening goon snipe; weakening luci primary but increasing projectile speed/size/splash; weakening mass driver but decreasing delay; etc.) and compiling a QVM for someone to host. As I understand it this would be as easy as finding the values in question and changing them. No coding knowledge required.I can allocate you one. It is pretty far from US, though.
i did not ignore scale and physics. i specifically mentioned them. the "similarities" as you call them, are a result of the engine. why do, for example, the four quake games all play different? because of their engines. why do doom3 and quake4 play so similarly? because of their engine.Yeah, American McGee's Alice is almost indistinguishable from Elite Force because of the shared engine, and i bet brink plays just like Doom3.
What Tremulant is saying is that the games play differently because the developers didn't bother to deviate from the engine that much. It's the developer's choice, not a limitation. It is and has been my contention that Tremulous has deviated far enough away from Quake 3 to not be compared so closely, but I think that debate (between us at least) is done. :)i did not ignore scale and physics. i specifically mentioned them. the "similarities" as you call them, are a result of the engine. why do, for example, the four quake games all play different? because of their engines. why do doom3 and quake4 play so similarly? because of their engine.Yeah, American McGee's Alice is almost indistinguishable from Elite Force because of the shared engine, and i bet brink plays just like Doom3.
Now, I'm off to read up on decompiling and C and such (didn't you say you modded? ;))
i'm sorry if my stricter definition than what is casual of what makes a game a game and a mod a mod upsets you. let me put it another way. in all likelihood i can take the data files from tremulous, put them into a mod folder in a ioq3 install, and run it. this would be true of many commercial games as well, if they did not actively attempt to restrict such activity. for example, if i could decrypt the game data and assets in "transformers: war for cybertron" i could likely run it as a mod from inside UT3.
tremulant, you missed this a few posts back -I don't think he missed the post where you said every Q3 engine game has the same weapons as Q3 ::)
What Tremulant is saying is that the games play differently because the developers didn't bother to deviate from the engine that much.
this is a team game.But as a basi you're of very limited use to your team, especially in small games, basis are crap base breakers. Remember that 2on1 you joined on niveus the other day? Your use of nothing but basi held us back considerably, with a rant camping in base on a booster there's no need for friend basi, i'm afraid, and something larger and more capable of eating the enemy base(mara+) would be more beneficial.
i'd rather get a thousand more basi kills anyway.
devhc, I still don't understand what you are saying, because you are not saying anything with sufficient verbosity. As long as the "disperson" is similar for humans and aliens, or as long as the dispersons works out to be mostly even, balance should be maintained. Its possible I've misjudged your definition of effort, but you need to make.effort is the amount of commitment one puts into the game: a combination of concentration, precision, quick response, learning, and strategic thinking (but not patience). consider a game between 2 players: there is a (uniformly) random number in [1..1000000]. both players first have to guess that number. if both players fail to guess the number, then the game is a draw. if one player guesses the number correctly while the other player fails to do so, then the latter player loses the game. if both players guess the number correctly, then both players take 1 shot at the other, resulting in a win/loss/draw depending on who succeeded in hitting the other. this game is completely balanced due to symmetry. however, the probability of you winning will not increase above 1/1000000, even if you shit blood trying (to guess the number, and to shoot your opponent). this means that the outcome of the game has more to do with luck than with skill, or, as i would say, the game is statistically dispersed. another example of adding dispersion while keeping the win ratio is to randomize the final outcome of the game (stop the game with one team winning) in 50% of the cases at every 5 minute mark in the game.
Quote from: RAKninjathird paragraph. i have fun while losing. so long as the battle is a hard fought one. when both teams reach s3 and there is no one single player on either side carrying the rest of the team, that's a good game to me. win or loss does not matter.
the dretch did something wrong? by spawning? i dont follow your logic there. i also dont get "outclassed" as even a bsuit can dodge faster than a dretch can move.
If you join an in-progress game, you're at a disadvantage. That's what i said. If you join an in-progress game, you can't expect balance to be had. You're outgunned. Also, if you suck, you can't expect balance to be had. You're outskilled.
To end: you're aware that certain tactical decisions (pushing up a hall as opposed to an open space) lend themselves to certain teams, right? And that certain tactical decisions are better than others? That an MD will have a hay day in arachnid halls but not in the tighter areas? That not every situation is good for every weapon or alien? If you play your alien or weapon right, you'll learn that just because the human has the potential to one-shot doesn't mean he will. The MD can oneshot only one alien, and the luci can oneshot only when given time. You're bitching about two weapons being OP because A) you confront them in situations that aren't favorable to you, or B) your opponent is lucky and kills you in a situation that should be favorable to you. Both of those things happen in every game (and real life). They are facts that you need to get used to. Learn the game, and play to the strengths of your class - oneshots won't matter.
For those of you who are clay-dretches (and I have been this myself, and recently), you have to think more tactically. If there is a massdriver sitting at the end of a hall, you have three choices: do some l33t dodging (potentially in a group with other dretches), wait for a non-dretch to go first, or don't go down that hall. If you choose the latter, you have two choices, you can sit at your end of the hall, and wait until a human comes your way, giving you the advantage (you probably won't have to wait long), or you can go fight in another part of the map.Remember, humans tend to have the advantage in hallways, you have the advantage of surprise (in s1), and prefer to begin an engagement at shorter range. If you're being a clay dretch, its because you think you are better than your MD opponent, or because you're not thinking tactically. Try to engage enemies when you have the upper hand, and not when your position is weak. The advantage of terrain means a lot in tremulous (and GPP more so). Taking out s1 MDs as a dretch is easier than taking out shotguns, if you engage them at short range, as has already been pointed out.
Stop trying to blame shitty playing/tactics on balanced game mechanics.patience is not awesome skill, and it is up to the design of the game logic not to reward patience. MD-camping is a form of camping, which is an act of patience, and should be dealt with. i've even heard someone saying that camping is a social issue, and not a gameplay one; that's fucking retarded, it's an excuse for proper game design. generally, it is the job of the game logic to avoid scenarios where people complain by saying "d00d, stop <insert_advantageous_act_here>ing", for example "d00d, stop camping", or
just kill the damn egg and get it over with.
also, 1v1 is pointless. this is a team game.that should not prevent us from tailoring a game logic with 1v1 games in mind (with perhaps with the unfortunate, but affordable downsides to NvN games).
It's actually pretty easy to remove the possibility of one-hit kills from the lucifer cannon without doing much to it's effectiveness: Divide the charge time and the damage amount by X, where X is whatever the hell you like (greater than 1).that's highly plausible. unfortunately as X grows, the lucifer cannon becomes a lasgun-equivalent weapon. perhaps the lucifer cannon should be completely revamped or completely removed.
One further question, would giving the mass driver a 3 round burst over 0.1 or 0.2 seconds (the full three rounds would have the same stats as the current mass driver) change anything in your opinion?i'd say: like hell.
the minimum that should be considered for a team based game is 2v2, in my opinion. variables that make sense in 1v1 play can, and often do, make progressively less sense the more players that are added in. for example, in tremulous 1v1, you have no teammate to build/repair a base, giving a huge advantage to the player who can damage his enemy's base. eventually, player a is going to have to build, and player b can attack with far less reprisal. this changes greatly with the addition of one player per side. then you can have a builder, and someone else running attack and defence. if we balanced buildings for 1v1 play, i doubt they would make much sense in a 3v3, or a 8v8 or a 16v16.also, 1v1 is pointless. this is a team game.that should not prevent us from tailoring a game logic with 1v1 games in mind (with perhaps with the unfortunate, but affordable downsides to NvN games).
patience is not awesome skill, and it is up to the design of the game logic not to reward patience. MD-camping is a form of camping, which is an act of patience, and should be dealt with. i've even heard someone saying that camping is a social issue, and not a gameplay one; that's fucking retarded, it's an excuse for proper game design. generally, it is the job of the game logic to avoid scenarios where people complain by saying "d00d, stop <insert_advantageous_act_here>ing", for example "d00d, stop camping", or
humans have a potential to be better than aliens: as (aiming and positioning) skills tend to infinity, the humans can kill the showing aliens more quickly and swiftly, while the aliens' attacking ability is limited by the time it takes to run up to a human. practically this isn't the case due to the incompetence of the players playing Tremulous nowadays, and the instability of the game engine, and its inability to compensate for latency. so while the game is mathematically a piece of shit, it is somewhat playable by the current community. in other words, Tremulous is made for n00bs and moderately-skilled players, but it does not have the skill-demonstrative value to become an accepted game in e-sports.
that's highly plausible. unfortunately as X grows, the lucifer cannon becomes a lasgun-equivalent weapon. perhaps the lucifer cannon should be completely revamped or completely removed.Yes, I'd prefer the lucifer cannon to not be replaced with the lasgun :). I don't see how the lucifer cannon is a big issue. The DPS is not significantly greater than the chaingun, and is significantly harder to use. The main benefit is against buildings, as well as a surprise factor against the less skilled. One can say that as skill increases, the lucifer cannon becomes much less valuable.
+1 for devhc. I would not say that the game engine is instable, but the rest is pretty much true. I should note that with more players, the aliens are slightly less disadvantaged (in a game with perfect humans, such as one played against bots), since if you feed a human enough dretches, he *will* have to reload, or run out of bullets. At this point, a significant advantage has been gained, however. One further qualification is that this only strictly applies to dretches, basilisks, and (to a slightly lesser extent) marauders. It may also apply to larger classes, but the effect is considerably less.what forces the human to hang around waiting to run out of ammo? why does he not just run back to base for more? kind of how a human will quite often run back to base, no matter the distance, if he pops his medkit. much like how aliens go back to the booster, or back off for natural regen. and even if the human does run out of ammo and gets swarmed under, he's got the credits now to come back more devastating than before. why leave the base at all? just hang out and have structures assist your kills till you stage up and have a significant advantage over the other team? why is it humans wll often set up shop in the hall outside the alien base, and make no move to come inside and wreck it, despite having superior firepower?
Do not worry, the suggestion of making the mass driver into a tripleshot is not a serious one, just a probe into RAK's mind.
nux:
i'm sorry i dont have a more positive tone. again i blame too many years on the internet. it's the classic problem. no one remembers the good, and no one forgets the bad.
To get away without dying in any situation, you need only dodge one bullet.
1HKOs make the outcome of fights depend too much on *luck* and aiming, that is hitting or missing the first shot makes a huge difference since:
1) a 2nd hit requires you to WAIT before you can hit again, thus more than doubling the time it takes to kill your opponent in 1vs1
what he said can apply to goon as well as MD. miss your shot with a goon, and a human can close with you and manoeuvre around that you miss again, all the while shooting you. goon chomps have a fairly slow repeat, and dont you have to have a significant charge for pounce to one-shot - equating to a significant delay?1HKOs make the outcome of fights depend too much on *luck* and aiming, that is hitting or missing the first shot makes a huge difference since:
1) a 2nd hit requires you to WAIT before you can hit again, thus more than doubling the time it takes to kill your opponent in 1vs1
Yes. Remember that the massdriver (which I'm sure you're mostly thinking of) costs 2 kills worth of credits. Marauder also costs 2 kills and DOES require more than one hit to kill. Furthermore, the aliens get the dragoon which can one-hit kill ANY s1 human no matter how much gear they've bought, whereas the aliens need only to be anything other than dretch to avoid a one-hit kill at s1.
This isn't the full picture, but I'm hinting at the equivalent aspects of the other side which people seem to keep neglecting to mention.
what he said can apply to goon as well as MD. miss your shot with a goon, and a human can close with you and manoeuvre around that you miss again, all the while shooting you. goon chomps have a fairly slow repeat, and dont you have to have a significant charge for pounce to one-shot - equating to a significant delay?1HKOs make the outcome of fights depend too much on *luck* and aiming, that is hitting or missing the first shot makes a huge difference since:
1) a 2nd hit requires you to WAIT before you can hit again, thus more than doubling the time it takes to kill your opponent in 1vs1
Yes. Remember that the massdriver (which I'm sure you're mostly thinking of) costs 2 kills worth of credits. Marauder also costs 2 kills and DOES require more than one hit to kill. Furthermore, the aliens get the dragoon which can one-hit kill ANY s1 human no matter how much gear they've bought, whereas the aliens need only to be anything other than dretch to avoid a one-hit kill at s1.
This isn't the full picture, but I'm hinting at the equivalent aspects of the other side which people seem to keep neglecting to mention.
plague, i do not have the HDD space for the libraries needed to compile. i will gladly host the server, however. if it makes any difference to the compiler, i run 64 bit linux.