Tremulous Forum
Media => Map Releases => Topic started by: Viech on August 16, 2012, 12:47:42 am
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Here comes the beta release of my map Parpax! It's a medium sized map for maybe 8-16 players.
(http://i.imgur.com/ruhe1.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/NL4cm.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/u1Iqy.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/oROwJ.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/O9ZDS.jpg)
Download links:
Beta 4:
Download (http://188.40.187.142/files/map-parpax-b04.pk3)
Beta 3:
dropbox.com (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42751829/map-parpax-b03.pk3)
freakshare.com (http://freakshare.com/files/hsk6v9bg/map-parpax-b03.pk3.html)
share-online.biz (http://www.share-online.biz/dl/5R12BM9MOVD)
Beta 2:
dropbox.com (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42751829/map-parpax-b02.pk3)
share-online.biz (http://www.share-online.biz/dl/4KHD0X8MKAV)
Beta 1:
dropbox.com (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42751829/map-parpax-b01.pk3)
share-online.biz (http://www.share-online.biz/dl/MAZDLT8MDS0)
freakshare.com (http://freakshare.com/files/mvufydlx/map-parpax-b01.pk3.html)
Hope you enjoy it! Criticism is welcome, improvement ideas are even better!
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When playing my map it would be really helpful if you ...
... take screenshots of spots/bugs/situations that you want to give me feedback about. This will also help others to quickly join the discussion.
... record a demo of the round and post it here! I need to see how many different players, from newbie to pro, interact with my map. In this way I can see how you move and where you hang/stuck, how you build, which items/classes you use and what tactics you develop. Please ensure no granger is harmed in the making of your video. ;)
I made a list of questions that I'm particularly interested in:
- Balancing -
Are the teams balanced all in all? (Please include the number of players.)
Is there a stage where both teams (on the same stage) are particularly imbalanced? (Number of players?)
Is it easier for one team to advance to a particular stage?
Are there areas that are strongly imbalanced? If yes, do you think that is a drawback to gameflow or does it rather make the map more interesting?
Are there areas where movement is complicated for one of the teams?
Are there significant shortcuts which are too easy to exploit for one team?
- Bases -
Are the default bases balanced and appropriate? Do they stand fast rushes in the first two minutes of the game?
Are the default base locations appropriate for extending the default bases?
Is there a moving location that is so interesting to both teams that they will fight about it? Has one team a strong advantage in this fight?
Are there any locations that are so much better than the default bases that one team always tries to move there right from the start (like window room on niveus)?
- Performance (please include your hardware and FPS) -
Is the map playable on your hardware? How does it compare to other maps?
What areas/situations particularly have a bad impact on performance?
- Layout -
Are there spots that are too dark? (I play with /r_gamma 1.3)
Are there spots where you tend to hang/stuck frequently?
Are there hiding spots for small aliens that can't be attacked by humans (on stage 2)?
Are there corridors where big aliens block each other? Does it improve balance or is it just annoying?
Are there dead areas that aren't interesting for gameplay?
Is the map diverse enough so that all items and alien classes have their application?
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I took small tour in your map, and I gotta say, nicely done.
A note, though. I got some error coming up now and then, near alien base saying:
ERROR: A particle system has not been registered yet.
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the baked-in ret models have missing textures.
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A note, though. I got some error coming up now and then, near alien base saying:
ERROR: A particle system has not been registered yet.
The only map-specific particle system are sparks that are ejected from the defective crane in front of the alien base. The particle system is included in scripts/parpax.particle in map-parpax-b01.pk3 and uses gfx/sprites/spark.tga which should be included in data-1.1.0.pk3. Can you see the sparks at the crane (the barrel attached to a rope that moves up and down)? What version of tremulous are you using? I can't reproduce that error on GPP.
the baked-in ret models have missing textures.
I can't reproduce that on a clean installation (no additional pk3's) of GPP. Could you give more information on your setup? Do you get an error message?
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Sorry for rushed post. I didn't had time to look properly, but now back. :P
Obviously, I got some redundant stuff on my base folder. It says I have reached maximum particles (192), so I guess I need to clean it up... >.<
Imma do some sort clean up, then report back...
the baked-in ret models have missing textures.
Not happenin' on my part.
.:edit:.
A-yup. I got some shitstuff on my base folder, small cleanup did some miracle.
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the baked-in ret models have missing textures.
I can't reproduce that on a clean installation (no additional pk3's) of GPP. Could you give more information on your setup?
binary: (slightly modified version of) r2272 of GPP
basepath: 1.1.0 pk3s (http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/tremulous/tremulous-1.1.0.zip?download) (minus vms-1.1.0.pk3)
homepath: data-gppr2223.pk3 (http://downloads.mercenariesguild.net/gpp/data-gppr2223.pk3), map-parpax-b01.pk3, zzzz-vms-r2272+amp.pk3 (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11110.0;attach=1607)
Do you get an error message?
no.
attached is a screenshot of the said missing textures.
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(2012-08-15 19:48:09) Viech: new map release: http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=16797.0 :)
(2012-08-15 19:56:12) Viech: i would love to start beta testing right away, if someone could put it online
…
(2012-08-15 21:43:09) Undeference: only 2 hours late (and .5 late for Viech to see), it's on betaserv
(2012-08-15 21:46:30) Undeference: looks washed out at my normal gamma level
looks like it's only on Betaserv (http://betaserv.tk/paklist.html#map_parpax_b01_pk3) for now. "washed out" was a little of an exaggeration, but definitely doesn't look as good as with lower than my normal gamma
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my normal
?!@><#?><D?><AS?>D<A?S><D?AS<D??
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my normal
?!@><#?><D?><AS?>D<A?S><D?AS<D??
ftfy, git
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my normal
?!@><#?><D?><AS?>D<A?S><D?AS<D??
ftfy, git
you really have no idea what the n word means.
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Okay, by request, it's up on US1/EU1/downloads.mercenariesguild.net.
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Obviously, I got some redundant stuff on my base folder. It says I have reached maximum particles (192), so I guess I need to clean it up... >.<
[...]
A-yup. I got some shitstuff on my base folder, small cleanup did some miracle.
I didn't know there was a maximum number of particles. But I'm glad the issue isn't related to my particle system. :)
the baked-in ret models have missing textures.
I can't reproduce that on a clean installation (no additional pk3's) of GPP. Could you give more information on your setup?
binary: (slightly modified version of) r2272 of GPP
basepath: 1.1.0 pk3s (http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/tremulous/tremulous-1.1.0.zip?download) (minus vms-1.1.0.pk3)
homepath: data-gppr2223.pk3 (http://downloads.mercenariesguild.net/gpp/data-gppr2223.pk3), map-parpax-b01.pk3, zzzz-vms-r2272+amp.pk3 (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11110.0;attach=1607)
My installation wasn't as clean as I told you, I just found out that the model I'm using (models/buildables/mgturret/mgturret.md3) is included in data-radiant-1.1.0.pk3. I will try to fix that issue with the next release.
"washed out" was a little of an exaggeration, but definitely doesn't look as good as with lower than my normal gamma
My primary fear was that the map is too dark since I develop with r_gamma 1.3. Are there other maps that seem too bright/washed out with your settings? I'm not sure if I should make the map any darker.
Okay, by request, it's up on US1/EU1/downloads.mercenariesguild.net.
Thank you! I will begin testing as soon as I'm sober again (tomorrow). :)
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Are there other maps that seem too bright/washed out with your settings? I'm not sure if I should make the map any darker.
There are a few but not the defaults or most others, so that's why I commented on it
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I took some critique from the game logs (http://stats.tremulous.net/tremstats/us1/games.php?map_id=718) of the first two games:
A dretch could singlehandedly tie a game in this map
I'm aware of this issue. I think the best solution would be if you can't tie by hiding at all. I'm thinking of a two minute timelimit if there isn't a builder among the leftover players of one team (before sudden death) and there aren't any spawns left. This way you could still try to rush the enemy base once but don't hide in pipe shafts. Since tremulous developement isn't that active anymore I'm afraid that I have to change my map somehow so that staying in the pipe shaft for a while is impossible. I'm thinking about small electric shocks that draw 5 life every second. I would also take removing the pipe shaft into account, if many players think that it's going too far.
Yeah [lookable doors are] pretty shitty. You also can't move around as a spec and it pisses me off
I will see if I can place spectator-only teleporters in front of the locked doors (that's the same technique that is being used for normal doors). Once again, if the button-opened doors piss players off I will remove the part of the emergency exit that leads to the alien base and make the other end a normal door. The ventilation shafts wouldn't reach the human base then. Just give me honest feedback and I'll react.
this ma p lags for me
The map has a lot of detail on a rather small space so performance was one of the things that I always had in mind. Unfortunately my machine is pretty fast and runs all areas of the map at full FPS so I don't know what areas need the most work for an overall smooth experience. Tell me the areas that have the greatest impact on performance and I will try to improve them.
Also sorry for changing [N7] to {N7}, the forum forced me to do so. ;)
Nice way of spelling closing
I already changed that. :P
this map sucks
this map really isn't very good
This is a beta version and I take beta testing seriously. When working on the map I was able to test it on a two-on-two at most with the same people all over again. These people were present when I made design decisions and so they knew and liked the map when they play-tested it with me. I'm pretty aware that some elements such as button-triggered doors and crushing elevators are prone to frustrate players. Still I wanted to go one step forward and try out new gameplay ideas - that might fail. If you think you found such a failure feel welcome to give me bad criticism! I will react to it and I will consider it when I continue working on the map. I'm not afraid of major changes - removing stuff, making rooms smaller or bigger, etc. The only thing I desperately need to know is what exactly you dislike.
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*blows dust off the forum account*
Despite not having played tremulous for quite some time I still check the forums once in a while. When I saw this map today, I decided to give it a shot and while I didn't actually play the map, I thought I'd provide some feedback concerning the design.
1. picture:
Just the usual missing texture hidden somewhere, nothing too serious
2. picture:
That was the only thing I found worth criticising. It could be just me playing in bright daylight, but it was not easy to spot those stairs. There is no need to make the map brighter overall, but a small light near the lowest part of those stairs might draw attention to them.
3. picture
I won't go into balancing intensively for now because I...
a) ...didn't play it, just watched a game
b) ...haven't played for ages and
c) ...suck at balancing maps anyway
Anyway, while I was online somebody expressed concern that aliens might have the advantage. If that turns out to be true, one thing i could imagine is putting a ladder in one of those vents, as it would allow humans without battlesuits to get up in an additional way.
Other than that the map is very appealing visually. You did an awesome job there.
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Hi Xedoh, thank you for your review! :)
1. picture:
Just the usual missing texture hidden somewhere, nothing too serious
The reason for missing textures is the following: Most of the textures I use are included in map-parpax-b01.pk3 as it is best practice. However I reference some textures from default tremulous maps because I don't know the precise author and license of these textures and since they are included in every Tremulous installation. However, the official gpp servers are pure servers and don't run the 1.1 maps that are shipped with tremulous but only the gpp versions of these maps. That means that even though you have the textures installed locally inside the 1.1 maps you may not see them since the server is pure and doesn't allow you to. Luckily the gpp versions of the default maps incldue the same textures and as soon as you have played and downloaded them you will be able to grab the "missing" textures from them. A fix would be to either upload the 1.1 maps to the official servers or include the textures in my pk3 which I currently don't plan to do for the reasons I explained above.
2. picture:
That was the only thing I found worth criticising. It could be just me playing in bright daylight, but it was not easy to spot those stairs. There is no need to make the map brighter overall, but a small light near the lowest part of those stairs might draw attention to them.
I will add some light to the stairs, especially to the lower regions.
Anyway, while I was online somebody expressed concern that aliens might have the advantage. If that turns out to be true, one thing i could imagine is putting a ladder in one of those vents, as it would allow humans without battlesuits to get up in an additional way.
This would indeed even the odds but the price would be that the stairs would loose importance. Since I'm working on some other major gameplay changes I will take a closer look on balance as soon as Beta 2 is out.
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Beta 2 Changelog
- sounds/parpax/crane.wav has been added to COPYING section
- the emergency exit has been removed, the room behind the elevator shaft stays and has a normal door now
- one of the ladders in the elevator shaft and the hole towards upper storage has been removed
- the ventilation shafts don't reach the human base anymore
- spectator teleporters have been added for easier navigation
- the lower regions of the stairs have been made brighter
- a box has been moved in long hall so humans have more space to move there
- the cage at the highest platform of the stairs has been removed
- human default has a few crates at the side entrance now
So no more confusing buttons apart from those at the elevator. ;)
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thanks for contributing another map using the overused textures
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- when the map "starts", the elevator door opens. the door should initially be opened instead.
- one of the fans behind the default reactor isn't spinning. is that intentional?
- wtf is up with the water/power hoses on the floor? that's bad practice from the management's point of view. the hose in the lower fork looks reasonable (it looks like some temporary repair work is being done), but the hose in the short hall must be removed or hung on the ceiling (in order to avoid blocking vehicles).
- the shape of the rounded stair steps are quite fancy, but noone in real life makes stairs that have visible holes when viewed orthogonally from the top. consider adding depth to the stair pieces, if that won't look worse.
- the map sections that are now (in beta 2) separated from the rest of the map still reside in the map. TODO: remove.
- in the long hall, what do the grates on the walls protect the walls from? the grating there is fancy, but illogical.
- in the front hall, there's a metal cover removed from the wall. is that a computer panel and a big fucking floodlight hidden inside a wall? that's like: (http://www.memehumor.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/camera-fail-640x536.jpg)
- the grated, inaccessible rooms in the elevator shafts are pointless from the architectural point of view.
- other than the emergency exit door and the glass opening over the staircase, there appears to be no entrance in or out of the complex. in other words, this base is a base for the sake of being a base.
- perhaps the elevator would be more appealing if parts of its walls were replaced with grating.
- one corner in the elevator shaft (attachment: elevator_shaft_corner_clog.jpg) induces jerky movement for humans there. the hole should be filled.
- another corner (attachment: elevator_shaft_corner_surf.jpg) causes humans to surf.
- i repeat: use texture packs.
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2 images of map holes (void) and 4 images of imperfect lighting...
official
(TM)
gpp servers are pure servers and don't run the 1.1 maps that are shipped with tremulous but only the gpp versions of these maps. That means that even though you have the textures installed locally inside the 1.1 maps you may not see them since the server is pure and doesn't allow you to.
ind33d, that is a server bug.
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when the map "starts", the elevator door opens. the door should initially be opened instead.
This happens due to the complex, super hacky way the elevator is done and I kind of like it. It gives the map some lively preamble.
one of the fans behind the default reactor isn't spinning. is that intentional?
I'm totally not sure but since it's a lost facility there should be even more malfunctioning stuff than there currently is so I'll leave it that way.
wtf is up with the water/power hoses on the floor? that's bad practice from the management's point of view. the hose in the lower fork looks reasonable (it looks like some temporary repair work is being done), but the hose in the short hall must be removed or hung on the ceiling (in order to avoid blocking vehicles).
As with the defective fan in rear storage I think that the map would need even more cables. The problem is that sophisticated details don't fit my rough brushwork too well and so I'm happy for every corner where a cable doesn't look totally out of place. But I agree this one looks a little out of place and if I come to adding more details I will consider putting some machine there that would make it reasonable to have a cable lying on the ground.
the shape of the rounded stair steps are quite fancy, but noone in real life makes stairs that have visible holes when viewed orthogonally from the top. consider adding depth to the stair pieces, if that won't look worse.
Well facilities in real life have doors to the outer world, too. I think the stairs are not my biggest problem when it comes to realism. From the gameplay perspective bigger holes enable humans to shoot through more easily and since the map is currently biased towards the aliens that sounds like a good feature to me.
the map sections that are now (in beta 2) separated from the rest of the map still reside in the map. TODO: remove.
Yes, of course. Just didn't want to trash them yet since I might be reusing some of the brushwork there in later versions (for example the fancy useless tank thing in the ventilation shafts will probably come back). I won't leave any garbage in later versions of my map, I promise!
in the long hall, what do the grates on the walls protect the walls from? the grating there is fancy, but illogical.
in the front hall, there's a metal cover removed from the wall. is that a computer panel and a big fucking floodlight hidden inside a wall?
Yes it is and yes it's all for the fanciness. Did you notice the big pipes at the ceiling of front storage form a circle? Ha! This is even more senseless. So even though you are totally right with your observations I see no way this map will ever be realistic and logical. If it was a painting there would be some intellectual explanation to all of this so think of my map as a piece of art and imagine the grating shall express anxiety. ;D
the grated, inaccessible rooms in the elevator shafts are pointless from the architectural point of view.
That was a quick fix since an alien base in the elevation shaft would take pretty much all fun out of the game from a human perspective since the hole towards upper storage is gone. But here I agree, there shall be an upgrade eventually.
other than the emergency exit door and the glass opening over the staircase, there appears to be no entrance in or out of the complex. in other words, this base is a base for the sake of being a base.
I had this in mind but now it's black on white on my TODO list. There will be an exit out of the base!
perhaps the elevator would be more appealing if parts of its walls were replaced with grating.
Yes that would look cool. The problem is the static lighting and the fact that it would still be illuminated bright orange when going by the blue lights. I might experiment with it but chances are that it will stay as it is.
one corner in the elevator shaft (attachment: elevator_shaft_corner_clog.jpg) induces jerky movement for humans there. the hole should be filled.
another corner (attachment: elevator_shaft_corner_surf.jpg) causes humans to surf.
Both put on TODO.
i repeat: use texture packs.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Most of the map is made with evillair's textures and I agree they are in every trem map. The reason I used them anyway is that the sets are, apart from being low definition, very good. I won't retexture the map for tremulous but it will get a normalmapped texture replacement for unvanquished later (I will, of course, do a proper and maintained tremulous release first). The product could probably be backported to trem, too, but it will look shitty as trem's engine expects shadows to be statically included in the diffusemap and q3map2's normalmap support suffers from low definition lightmaps. I don't know any fitting q3-style (non-normalmapped) textures apart from the ones that are used heavily in trem maps or otherwise I had used them instead.
To your "void" screenshots:
This isn't really a hole to the void since otherwise the map wouldn't even compile. I think the problem is that with diagonal brushes real numbers are being used instead of integers and the engine sometimes doesn't render surfaces fitting then. I could solve this at known locations by texturing the regions that are between the brushes and shouldn't be visible at all but that would mean some extra polygons that do little but have an impact on performance. And since some people have complained about lower than average FPS I don't think that would be worth it. You could try to solve this on your side by enabling antialising with "r_ext_multisample 4".
Imperfect lighting 1&2:
I find this ugly, too, but I can do little about it since trem uses static lighting. For the back side of the elevator car I might change the shaft so that the car is lit orange when it's in the lower position. The only alternative would be using external lightmaps and manually editing them in the GIMP after every release quality compile. That would be a huge pita.
Imperfect lighting 3:
Put on TODO.
Imperfect lighting 4:
This looks good with my (high quality) settings so I tend to leave it that way.
Thank you very much for your detailed review! :)
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when the map "starts", the elevator door opens. the door should initially be opened instead.
This happens due to the complex, super hacky way the elevator is done and I kind of like it. It gives the map some lively preamble.
you do realize that the "preamble" will only be played when the map is loaded locally, right?
the shape of the rounded stair steps are quite fancy, but noone in real life makes stairs that have visible holes when viewed orthogonally from the top. consider adding depth to the stair pieces, if that won't look worse.
Well facilities in real life have doors to the outer world, too. I think the stairs are not my biggest problem when it comes to realism. From the gameplay perspective bigger holes enable humans to shoot through more easily and since the map is currently biased towards the aliens that sounds like a good feature to me.
then make the steps (partially) grate-based.
also, out-of-context answer detected.
in the long hall, what do the grates on the walls protect the walls from? the grating there is fancy, but illogical.
in the front hall, there's a metal cover removed from the wall. is that a computer panel and a big fucking floodlight hidden inside a wall?
Yes it is and yes it's all for the fanciness. Did you notice the big pipes at the ceiling of front storage form a circle? Ha! This is even more senseless. So even though you are totally right with your observations I see no way this map will ever be realistic and logical. If it was a painting there would be some intellectual explanation to all of this so think of my map as a piece of art and imagine the grating shall express anxiety. ;D
the map can become very logical under my supervision. in the long hall, the alcove coupled with the monitor looks like a briefing area (or a movie room). replacing the grates on the walls with boards (material: cork) for sticky notes, and perhaps adding another such alcove would add uniqueness and explainability to the map design. for the hidden floodlight, you could delete the removed wall piece, delete the computer, and open the other cover (which should also have only a floodlight); that would look good and explainable.
for artistic purposes, the map should contain an absurd amount of logical errors. In small quantities, the errors only point towards careless/amateur mapping.
perhaps the elevator would be more appealing if parts of its walls were replaced with grating.
Yes that would look cool. The problem is the static lighting and the fact that it would still be illuminated bright orange when going by the blue lights. I might experiment with it but chances are that it will stay as it is.
(1) = crappy lighting + opaque walls = worst.
(2) = crappy lighting + semi-transparent walls = intermediate.
(3) = good lighting + opaque walls = intermediate.
(4) = good lighting + semi-transparent walls = best.
note: (2) > (1).
the blue-lit areas are subject to change anyway, as you said.
i repeat: use texture packs.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Most of the map is made with evillair's textures and I agree they are in every trem map. The reason I used them anyway is that the sets are, apart from being low definition, very good.
thanks for contributing another map using the overused textures
stocked textures get boring over time. there is a lot of free, epic texture packs out there to use.
also, not all textures are epic. for example, the floor texture with the diagonal squares (also used a lot on ATCS) is a big fucking piece of shit.
To your "void" screenshots:
This isn't really a hole to the void since otherwise the map wouldn't even compile. I think the problem is that with diagonal brushes real numbers are being used instead of integers and the engine sometimes doesn't render surfaces fitting then. I could solve this at known locations by texturing the regions that are between the brushes and shouldn't be visible at all but that would mean some extra polygons that do little but have an impact on performance. And since some people have complained about lower than average FPS I don't think that would be worth it. You could try to solve this on your side by enabling antialising with "r_ext_multisample 4".
whether the void point behind the grate is a "hole" is a matter of definition, but void is visible there nontheless, and one should attempt to fix that case. but the void points next to the ventilation shafts are really big and look like mapping errors. also, adding 20 polygons (to fix those holes) will have a neligible impact on performance.
anti-aliasing is a non-solution and a non-workaround: it does nothing to cover the void. on a side-note, my current video drivers don't support anti-aliasing.
Imperfect lighting 1&2:
I find this ugly, too, but I can do little about it since trem uses static lighting. For the back side of the elevator car I might change the shaft so that the car is lit orange when it's in the lower position. The only alternative would be using external lightmaps and manually editing them in the GIMP after every release quality compile. That would be a huge pita.
another workaround is to add lights to the elevator: the bottom of the elevator should contain 2 disc-shaped bumps which can connect to the 2 cylinders at the bottom, and (the discs) should have lights at the sides (but not at the bottoms), thus always lighting the bottom of the elevator except for the bottoms of the discs.
new notes:
some grating is doubled (see the attachment). this adds almost no value.
PS: new name choices will be presented S00N(TM).
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you do realize that the "preamble" will only be played when the map is loaded locally, right?
I know that. So either it's cool or it doesn't hurt. (Belive me if you were me you wouldn't want to touch that fubar elevator logic if you got it working once!)
the map can become very logical under my supervision. in the long hall, the alcove coupled with the monitor looks like a briefing area (or a movie room). replacing the grates on the walls with boards (material: cork) for sticky notes, and perhaps adding another such alcove would add uniqueness and explainability to the map design. for the hidden floodlight, you could delete the removed wall piece, delete the computer, and open the other cover (which should also have only a floodlight); that would look good and explainable.
If I'm going to make the setting more realistic I will consider this. Currently other stuff (especially gameplay and performance) has a higher priority so I will probably not work on such things before Beta 4/Release 1.
(1) = crappy lighting + opaque walls = worst.
(2) = crappy lighting + semi-transparent walls = intermediate.
(3) = good lighting + opaque walls = intermediate.
(4) = good lighting + semi-transparent walls = best.
note: (2) > (1).
the blue-lit areas are subject to change anyway, as you said.
Ok, I will see what I can do. The ele shaft will probably have some adjustments anyway so I will try out new lighting on the fly.
whether the void point behind the grate is a "hole" is a matter of definition, but void is visible there nontheless, and one should attempt to fix that case. but the void points next to the ventilation shafts are really big and look like mapping errors. also, adding 20 polygons (to fix those holes) will have a neligible impact on performance.
If it's primarily these few regions I will fix it.
another workaround is to add lights to the elevator: the bottom of the elevator should contain 2 disc-shaped bumps which can connect to the 2 cylinders at the bottom, and (the discs) should have lights at the sides (but not at the bottoms), thus always lighting the bottom of the elevator except for the bottoms of the discs.
This is an excellent idea! I will try that.
some grating is doubled (see the attachment). this adds almost no value.
Noted on TODO.
PS: new name choices will be presented S00N(TM).
Now that I did a public release I won't change the name anymore. Sorry for that. :(
Regarding the stairs: I guess I like them the way they are. However, the ones in the rear storage might get removed completely since I'm thinking about a new concept for the default human base. Not sure though. Tests have shown that you can build a few good bases and a whole lot of crap bases there.
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you do realize that the "preamble" will only be played when the map is loaded locally, right?
I know that. So either it's cool or it doesn't hurt. (Belive me if you were me you wouldn't want to touch that fubar elevator logic if you got it working once!)
it's actually WRONG. you can say that you won't fix it because it's difficult to fix; other arguments are weaker.
PS: new name choices will be presented S00N(TM).
Now that I did a public release I won't change the name anymore. Sorry for that. :(
you are probably `Ishq/kharnov/etc. in disguise.
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you are probably `Ishq/kharnov/etc. in disguise.
Oh, you flatter him!
On topic: Nice map Viech. I had a pretty fun game on it today.
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you are probably `Ishq/kharnov/etc. in disguise.
Oh, you flatter him!
not at all, you little assfuck.
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you are probably `Ishq/kharnov/etc. in disguise.
Oh, you flatter him!
not at all, you little assfuck.
Careful there, some people exist in this world love others when being abused...
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This maps looks simply amazing, lots of detail, the barrel going up and down, good stuff!
Keep up the good work!!
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The quotes below are taken from this (http://stats.tremulous.net/tremstats/us1/game_log.php?game_id=49715) game log.
practically every aspect of this map is a deathtrap for humans
To understand your position I need more details. I'm aware that Beta 2 is biased towards the alien team and I think the main reason is the human default which I admit has a very bad design, gameplay wise. I'm currently replacing it with a completely new room which shall be easier for humans to defend without the need to constantly camp it. Hopefully this will have a good impact on balance and reward more aggressive playing styles. If it's mainly the elevator you are criticising, see below.
To throw some US1 statistics at you:
| Team | Wins | Kills | Deaths |
| Aliens | 10 | 1454 | 2332 |
| Humans | 7 | 2045 | 1629 |
This means aliens currently win 59% of all matches but humans make 58% of all kills. This is comparable to the most popular map ATCS where aliens win 61% of all matches and humans make 56% of all kills. So while I think the humans should win more matches I would dispute the whole map being a deathtrap for humans. Of course these stats where generated from only a few matches and time might prove me wrong. Let's wait for Beta 3 and see if humans need a safer environment.
viech doesn't seem to understand that the lift is never going to be enjoyable with aliens camping in it
I noticed in the public matches that with a decent number of players the elevator is a really dangerous path for both teams, which was the desired behavior. Taking it should always result in direct confrontation and losses on both sides. This is why I designed the stairs as a longer way with the ability to retreat and the vents as a short path for smaller aliens and light armor + jetpack who would die fast in elevator fights. In Beta 1 it was criticised that the hole between elevator and upper storage would allow poison dretches to enter the car multiple times which is the reason why I removed that hole and left the entrance at upper fork (the area after the upper end of the stairs) as the only entrance to the elevator shaft from the upper levels. To have an advantage over the elevator, aliens now need to place a forward booster inside elevator room while humans have to build forward turrets in front storage (which is going to be renamed to lower storage since the human default isn't a storage room anymore).
If you think that the elevator is still biased towards the aliens please tell me your improvement ideas! My goal is to have a balanced gpp map and I will take all kind of changes into consideration until Parpax hopefully satisfies competitive requirements at some point in time.
i appear to have fallen into a vent system whilst wearing a bsuit
This is why I have a cage built around the holes ... what are you doing? :D
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I loved the elevators. Please leave them as is.
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Wow man, I actually think you put more thought into this then most mapmakers!
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Wow man, I actually think you put more thought into this then most mapmakers!
I didn't put any thought into this map either.
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Some criticism from the game logs:
why wallwalk no work?
Tremulous doesn't allow wallwalk on entities and moving objects and the elevator obviously moves. I can do nothing about this. :(
there's some annoying noise
The background sound is currently registered as the maps "music" and some people have the same stucked sound issues as in the main menu (also the sound won't play if you disabled the menu music). I don't seem to get it working with a global speaker though, maybe you can advise me how these work on IRC?
something is wrong with that vent
I got in as mara earlier
Getting into vents with adv. mara is a little tricky but if I make the hole any bigger adv. goons can get in, too, and people will whine about their goons getting stuck. So I should probably leave the vents as a challenge.
there are rets outside map :/
The rets you can see through the windows above the stairs don't work and don't steal BP. :P
I don't like this map.
Again, as long as you say what exactly you dislike I can try to adjust things until everyone (or at least, most people) is happy with the design. So please be more specific about what bothers you!
Beta 3 is on its way and will be released soonTM but it will probably take some more days as I'm still busy redoing the human default and trying to exchange as many textures as possible with the goal to have an independent pk3 eventually (not in Beta 3, though).
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The background sound is currently registered as the maps "music" and some people have the same stucked sound issues as in the main menu (also the sound won't play if you disabled the menu music). I don't seem to get it working with a global speaker though
here's some crappy setup to play sound/announcements/reinforcement globally every second:
{
"classname" "target_speaker"
"noise" "sound/announcements/reinforcement"
"spawnflags" "4"
"targetname" "shootme"
}
{
"classname" "target_relay"
"targetname" "flip"
"target" "shootme"
}
{
"classname" "target_relay"
"targetname" "flop"
"target" "shootme"
}
{
"classname" "target_delay"
"targetname" "flip"
"target" "flop"
"wait" "1.0"
}
{
"classname" "target_delay"
"targetname" "flop"
"target" "flip"
"wait" "1.0"
}
{
"classname" "trigger_always"
"target" "flip"
}
in this, 2 target_delays are firing at eachother (1 activation per second), and, via target_relays, the target_speaker also gets activated every second, generating a global sound event. the loop is initiated with a trigger_always. note: events may be dropped due to a stream of lost snapshots (~300msec worth of lost snapshots at a critical moment).
however, how about different ambient sounds for different rooms?
PS: you're using a non-de-facto-standard directory: sounds (instead of sound).
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here's some crappy setup to play sound/announcements/reinforcement globally every second:
I want a smooth, looping ambient sound, your setup is only good for recurring noises.
however, how about different ambient sounds for different rooms?
Makes sense for special rooms such as strange machine but how should the stairs or long hall sound? I'd like to have one global ambient sound. This should be possible without setting it as music, I just don't have it figured out yet.
PS: you're using a non-de-facto-standard directory: sounds (instead of sound).
Thank you, I fixed that.
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here's some crappy setup to play sound/announcements/reinforcement globally every second:
I want a smooth, looping ambient sound, your setup is only good for recurring noises.
WRONG. if you want a very strict, constant sound with no 25-msec interruptions (on average, if modeled appropriately using an sv_fps setting of 20), then that particular setup is not acceptable. however, if you add some slight fluctuations to the volume of the ambient sound, then you can also add a quiet-down to the beginning and end of the ambient sound track, mitigating the possible 25-msec interruptions. also, if you add 2 constantly playing tracks (expanding on my method), with one track rewinding near the middle of the other, then the possible interruptions will be even less noticeable.
however, how about different ambient sounds for different rooms?
Makes sense for special rooms such as strange machine but how should the stairs or long hall sound?
wider rooms have deeper ambient sounds. rooms with more open access to other areas (ie., open doors) tend to sound more windy. other sound effects depend on the specialty of "props" in the room. but generally, nothing rules out one pair of rooms sounding equally.
to parts where electrical wires are visible, you can add some slight humming noise (i have no idea why). to parts where pipes can be seen, you can add a closed-waterflow sound, and perhaps a bubbling sound. to create areas with different feelings, you can even change the design of some areas: for example, you can add a slightly penetrated pipe to the staircase, and then add some water dripping sounds, and perhaps some particles.
take a look at the SnowValley map (map-snowvalley3-b2.pk3). that has 64 target_speakers.
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Beta 3 Changelog
(http://i.imgur.com/oROwJ.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/jQJb8.jpg)
- The human default base has been replaced with a completely new room
- Advanced marauders (and crouching humans) are now able to enter long hall via pipe shaft in order to defeat campy human bases there (thanks to Ingar)
- Added "steps" in elevator shaft so goons can exit it (forgot hwo proposed this, sorry!)
- Some textures have been replaced with the goal to have an independent .pk3 file eventually
- A bug has been fixed which denied building in some regions in elevator room
- A bug has been fixed that lead to humans surfing at the top of the elevator car (thanks to /dev/humancontroller)
- A bug where the void was visible was fixed (/dev/humancontroller)
- Leftover map regions (from Beta 1) have been removed
- Lighting in short hall and long hall has been changed from entity based to shader based, lower storage (former name: front storage) will follow
- The directory containing sounds is now named "sound" instead of "sounds" to comply with the standard layout (/dev/humancontroller)
- The baked in turret model has been added to COPYING section
- Removed the background sound as it was registered as the level's music which lead to annoying noises for some players. Background sounds might come back later on a per-room basis.
- Some known lighting bugs (elevator) have NOT yet been fixed, these will go in a later release
I hope you enjoy the new human default! :)
Download links in the first post.
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Missing texture, the weird thing is I'm not getting any errors in the console.
Update:
The small red square light in the first screenshot is also missing, I'm running a server
with onlyt a few maps, the shader is probably referencing a texture from a different pk3.
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* Off-topic posts split into new thread *
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Missing texture, the weird thing is I'm not getting any errors in the console.
My goal is to have all textures included eventually but Beta 3 still uses 19 shaders/textures from atcs, karith, nexus6, niveus and tremor and from the directories displays and titan. The lamps that are missing in your screenshot are from atcs.
As long as the server has the 1.1 versions of these maps installed (which are installed on every client by default) everything should work but if the server is pure and doesn't have them installed (such as the official servers) players hwo haven't yet downloaded the GPP versions of the maps from the server will see a few "shader missing" textures.
I will continue replacing these textures (I already replaced/included a lot from Beta 2 to 3) and in a final release of my map, everything should be included in the pk3.
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The lamps that are missing in your screenshot are from atcs.
Makes sense, on my server I replaced atcs with atcshd.
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Btw, in the next beta please make the crates smaller. Beta3's is very huge. I want them to be small enough for humans to jump on.
Also, if possible, make those cardboard boxes 'shoot through-able' because that would be somewhat more realistic :D
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Btw, in the next beta please make the crates smaller. Beta3's is very huge. I want them to be small enough for humans to jump on.
Can you explain which crates you mean? The only crates that you should be unable to jump on are those like the red one you see on both Beta 3 Changelog post (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=16797.msg234589#msg234589) screenshots. If you are unable to jump on any other barrel or crate please describe it or post a screenshot! This might be a fps-related issue then (in ioquake3 you can jump slightly higher with higher FPS). I will also consider making that single crate in the human default a little smaller so you can jump on it.
EDIT: It is a FPS issue. With \com_maxfps 125 you can jump on the red crate in human default, with \com_maxfps 60 you can't. I will make that create a little lower on the next release so everyone can get on top.
Also, if possible, make those cardboard boxes 'shoot through-able' because that would be somewhat more realistic :D
That was a quick texture replacement since the old texture was referenced from a default map pk3. I don't like these paperboxes (We are in the future after all!) and will rather look for a replacement.
Criticism from the game logs (Beta 2):
[the map is] too big imo
At first I thought it was a really small map. In the alpha phase we did successfull games with only 4 people and thought it would be an ideal map for 6-12 players. Then many people in the public beta said it was a huge and maze-like map which did confuse me a little as I already removed the emergency exit and shortened the ventilation shafts from Beta 1 to Beta 2 and thought it was pretty straightforward now. In fact, I have a really bad sense for navigation and had a hard time to learn maps such as niveus but from a mappers perspective, when you look on blueprints of your map every day, the layout burns into your head. I think as soon as you get to know the layout the map will feel much smaller to you, too. Have a look on the gameflow chart:
(http://i.imgur.com/RqvgV.jpg)
Like on many other trem maps I decided to have two main passages between the default bases. It's the stairs and the elevator. Small aliens and humans with jetpack can also use the ventilation shafts. Aliens are on the upper floor, humans on the lower floor, so it should be easy to recognize if you are on enemy territory. Speaking the floors, they look way different but are pretty alike. Both the human's and alien's base have a lobby, called lower storage and upper storage respectively. These lobbys connect to all ways that lead up/down and are designed to be the main combat areas. Having control over its own and the enemies lobby shall be crucial for winning the game. On both floors, there's two main pathes that lead into the respective base. One (the main entrance) runs directly through the lobby, the other runs next to it. Both default bases have a weakness built in which again rewards small aliens and jetpacked humans: Small aliens (dretch, normal basi, normal marauder) can enter the human's base through the pipe shafts. These are fairly easy to secure with one well placed turret at each of the two shafts (in Beta 3, you don't need a repeater anymore and one of the default turrets already seals of one of them pretty well). The aliens base has a weakness which is a little harder to seal: Humans equipped with a jetpack and a grenade can fly on the two pipes that run inside the base and drop a grenade right inside its heart. While campy tyrants can just look up and cry about this, the hole in the strange machine also has an advantage for the aliens: It enables them to intercept attackers at the main entrance from above. Also it's the fastest way in and out of the alien base.
I agree that the stairs path is a little too long compared to the elevator. Beta 3's new human default has the nodes closer to the stairs (next to the side entrance) to compensate for this but I doubt that I can make the path itself much shorter. I'll try it though.
EDIT: Beta 3 is now online on the official servers.
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in ioquake3 you can jump slightly higher with higher FPS
WRONG. in Q3/ioq3/Tremulous/etc., there are magic FPS numbers that yield (locally) optimal jump heights. For example, 333fps yields a very high height, but 500fps yields a very low height.
official
(TM)
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I had two matches on GPP US1 yesterday (Game Log 1 (http://stats.tremulous.net/tremstats/us1/game_log.php?game_id=50340), Game Log 2 (http://stats.tremulous.net/tremstats/us1/game_log.php?game_id=50348)). I think it's now time to have a closer look on balancing and gameplay.
My impression is that while the default bases are on a good way to be balanced now (the former human default was a playground for aliens), humans still have a harder time getting close to the enemy base. That makes sense since in Beta 2, even if humans were stronger, aliens could often force a tie by camping the upper floor. My goal is clearly to make games more aggressive and move battlezones closer to the default bases, especially to the alien's.
Some improvement ideas have been proposed ingame, especially by Menace and naboo (thank you!). I assembled a list of changes I currently do and don't consider. Please discuss them.
- I will probably make the elevator much faster, so that intercepting humans in the car isn't as easy anymore. The elevator shall become a real path, currently it's rather a deathtrap for humans while aliens don't dare using it since there's less dangerous paths available to them.
- I'm thinking about allowing Battlesuits to exit the ventilation shafts when they fall into them. This will reduce frustration and enable them to flee if they have enough hp to survive the drop.
- It has been proposed to make corridors wider in favor of humans. I'm not sure how that is supposed to help them. I need more opinions on this matter: Please explain why you think wider corridors will or won't support attacking humans.
- I've been asked to add a completely new path between the floors. While this is possible it would have a rather unpredictable impact so I need more brainstorming on this. That path would probably connect the side entrance of human default (long hall) to the side entrance of alien default (unnamed hall). This will most definitely make it harder for aliens to camp the upper floor while it could also enable them to rush the human base more easily. I'd need to make up a path that enables humans to go up fast and it shouldn't be a second elevator.
- I am not going to switch the default bases. That would be a completely different map and all thought I put in it before would be wasted. I need fast paths for humans to move vertical instead. Even though niveus isn't too balanced people love to play it despite the fact that aliens are above humans. What can I learn from niveus/karith?
- Speaking karith, there was a request for more open regions. Maybe the new path should be an outdoor area or a room such as karith's stack? Also what would you think about merging stairs entry and stairs into one big room with the ability for humans to shoot at the stairs and jetpack up more easily?
Apart from the input received here I need a lot more gameplay testing to get a feeling for different situations. So even if you currently think your favorite team has the disadvantage, please see it as a challenge at this point in time and help me evaluate possible improvements!
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Sorry i found the reason for me not being able to jump on it:
http://www.funender.com/quake/articles/fps.html
Basically, my fps wasn't at a optimum rate which allows me to step jump onto it. Its like the citadel erm... whatever you call it. Its a little square ledge in the human base if you know what i'm talking about.
edit: I didn't know you already had mentioned it... *facepalm for the 233th time*
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suggestion: design around default settings, not settings that yield "magic" results.
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suggestion: design around default settings, not settings that yield "magic" results.
suggestion: the default settings are BUG(TM)ed; fix the settings. but the real fact is that the gamelogic is bugged.
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suggestion: design around default settings, not settings that yield "magic" results.
EDIT: It is a FPS issue. With \com_maxfps 125 you can jump on the red crate in human default, with \com_maxfps 60 you can't. I will make that create a little lower on the next release so everyone can get on top.
If you think you have a slight understanding of tremulous gameplay/map layouting: Please discuss the changes I posted above! I need some input before I can start making major changes to the map. Beta 3 feels more balanced to me than the previous Betas but since the human default doesn't suck anymore and aliens cannot constantly rush, the map clearly has a camping issue (Tyrant in stairs, Greeting committees on both ends of the elevator, Mara/Goon/Rant at the upper end of the vertical ventilation shafts, ...). Currently I plan to make the elevator much faster and design another path between the floors but what about the stairs and the ventilation shafts? Can they be made more attack-friendly and less camping-prone?
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suggestion: design around default settings, not settings that yield "magic" results.
EDIT: It is a FPS issue. With \com_maxfps 125 you can jump on the red crate in human default, with \com_maxfps 60 you can't. I will make that create a little lower on the next release so everyone can get on top.
it was a suggestion for future work, not just a comment on this one aspect. i was suggesting you keep a default client with default settings so that you can test your work on it, rather than only testing the config you use yourself.
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suggestion: design around default settings, not settings that yield "magic" results.
EDIT: It is a FPS issue. With \com_maxfps 125 you can jump on the red crate in human default, with \com_maxfps 60 you can't. I will make that create a little lower on the next release so everyone can get on top.
it was a suggestion for future work, not just a comment on this one aspect. i was suggesting you keep a default client with default settings so that you can test your work on it, rather than only testing the config you use yourself.
Make it so its jump-able with 20 fps plz. My com_maxfps is set to 76, but my fps never goes above ~60 on gpp. On my older computer, it was worse. It hardly went above 35 on "detailed" maps like yours.
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I have to learn for an upcoming test, so I don't have much time for mapping in the next weeks. However, here is what I've currently planned for Beta 4:
- The elevator will move much faster
- I will add a new path which is going to be independent of the current regions. It will connect long hall to unnamed hall and thus be a direct connection of the secondary entrances of both default bases.
- Both the lower and upper floor are too open which rewards camping. I will close the path from upper storage to unnamed hall and the path from lower storage to lower fork. lower fork, dome room and stairs entry might be redone in order to make the path to the stairs shorter.
- I already replaced a lot of textures, Beta 4 will only depend on a few exterior resources, if any
- Human players will be able to jump on all boxes, regardless of their FPS
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Hi Viech, thanks for your map Parpax !
I found several bugs in your map.
At one point you can see through the ceiling :
http://postimage.org/image/4bqwkalkr/
And it seems to be missing a texture on the decorative turrets (when played using Unvanquished) :
http://postimage.org/image/kc43vz9z7/
It is best seen using legacy renderer, because the missing textures are more discreet with XreaL based engine.
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Hi Viech, thanks for your map Parpax !
I found several bugs in your map.
At one point you can see through the ceiling :
http://postimage.org/image/4bqwkalkr/
And it seems to be missing a texture on the decorative turrets (when played using Unvanquished) :
http://postimage.org/image/kc43vz9z7/
It is best seen using legacy renderer, because the missing textures are more discreet with XreaL based engine.
the missing textures were addressed.
the baked-in ret models have missing textures.
I can't reproduce that on a clean installation (no additional pk3's) of GPP. Could you give more information on your setup?
binary: (slightly modified version of) r2272 of GPP
basepath: 1.1.0 pk3s (http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/tremulous/tremulous-1.1.0.zip?download) (minus vms-1.1.0.pk3)
homepath: data-gppr2223.pk3 (http://downloads.mercenariesguild.net/gpp/data-gppr2223.pk3), map-parpax-b01.pk3, zzzz-vms-r2272+amp.pk3 (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11110.0;attach=1607)
My installation wasn't as clean as I told you, I just found out that the model I'm using (models/buildables/mgturret/mgturret.md3) is included in data-radiant-1.1.0.pk3. I will try to fix that issue with the next release.
my thoughts on the map (which i shared with you, viech, but will state here for reiteration):
the walls are not flat enough. please make the walls less decorative and more functional. i noticed that you have indeed managed to keep a wall functionally flat while preserving detail. i suggest you do this to every wall (and ceiling) you wish to decorate. walls that are not conducive to wallwalk are a pet peeve of mine.
elevator needs a new button sound, the current one is too close to the luci overcharge warning. for comparison, imagine a door that made the first .2 sec of a tyrant's roar, and the effect it would have on a human using it.
the corridors are a bit wide, though this mainly seems due to how the walls are concave.
there are a few corridors that are quite long and straight, with no cover, no doors, and no twists to them. that should be changed, somehow. cover can be added, or doors, or bends - think the atcs hallway.
- It has been proposed to make corridors wider in favor of humans. I'm not sure how that is supposed to help them. I need more opinions on this matter: Please explain why you think wider corridors will or won't support attacking humans.
wider corridors means more room to dodge goons and rants. wider corridors also mean being able to stay out of range of wallwalking aliens. more room to avoid luci selfdamage, as well.
pretty much anything you can list as an advantage for a human in a large, open, room also applies to large, open, halls.
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At one point you can see through the ceiling :
http://postimage.org/image/4bqwkalkr/
And it seems to be missing a texture on the decorative turrets (when played using Unvanquished) :
http://postimage.org/image/kc43vz9z7/
It is best seen using legacy renderer, because the missing textures are more discreet with XreaL based engine.
The turrets will probably disappear at some point, definitely with later releases targeting XreaL. The first bug isn't my fault, it's based on the way the engine handles skyboxes. Whatever gets rendered from your perspective (which is not only what you can see but usually slightly more) can be seen through the skybox. I'd need to build an outside area that lays before the visible regions. Since the dome at the stairs is just a detail, building such an area is of low priority to me but might be done at some point if I manage to keep the impact on performance very low.
the walls are not flat enough. please make the walls less decorative and more functional. i noticed that you have indeed managed to keep a wall functionally flat while preserving detail. i suggest you do this to every wall (and ceiling) you wish to decorate. walls that are not conducive to wallwalk are a pet peeve of mine.
Most walls are already clipped flat, like the grated walls at Long Hall or the pillars in human default. Having flat walls (clipping wise) is of high priority to me so if you still find areas that are hard to wallwalk or create artifacts in perspective with wallwalk speed on instant just tell me the room names and I will see what I can do to improve it. I will also have a closer look on clipping myself. I usually hide clips in the editor and sometimes I change geometry and forget about adjusting them so that's a common cause for bad clipping.
elevator needs a new button sound, the current one is too close to the luci overcharge warning. for comparison, imagine a door that made the first .2 sec of a tyrant's roar, and the effect it would have on a human using it.
Noted, I see if I can record a fitting sound. It has to be alarming since the doors off the elevator are crushers (that's because you could kill the ele's logic by reversing door movement if you managed to block them for some time - it's not just pure sadism).
the corridors are a bit wide, though this mainly seems due to how the walls are concave.
What corridors are too wide? I think as long as they help humans getting close to the alien base in one piece they should stay as they are unless the next beta manages to flip balancing.
there are a few corridors that are quite long and straight, with no cover, no doors, and no twists to them. that should be changed, somehow. cover can be added, or doors, or bends - think the atcs hallway.
This is planned for Unnamed Hall. I like Long Hall as it is. It's human biased (which is generally a bad idea for a corridor so close to the human default as it supports camping) but as human default is still very rushable and Long Hall will get extended in order to create a new path between the floors in favor of the humans that seems OK to me. I'm not sure about Ventilation Hall and the vents.
Thank you both for input!
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At one point you can see through the ceiling :
http://postimage.org/image/4bqwkalkr/
isn't my fault
WRONG.
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I found a major bug:
Without parpax in my /base (or /gpp) folder, trem gpp works fine. But when i put it in, (gpp has it on their server), trem can't seem to find data-1.1.0.pk3. When i take it back out, it works fine.
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I found a major bug:
Without parpax in my /base (or /gpp) folder, trem gpp works fine. But when i put it in, (gpp has it on their server), trem can't seem to find data-1.1.0.pk3. When i take it back out, it works fine.
I have no idea how this could possbibly happen. Parpax' pk3 just contains the usual stuff:
.
|-- levelshots
| `-- parpax.jpg
|-- maps
| |-- parpax.bsp
| |-- parpax-builder.navMesh
| |-- parpax-builderupg.navMesh
| |-- parpax-human_base.navMesh
| |-- parpax-human_bsuit.navMesh
| |-- parpax-level0.navMesh
| |-- parpax-level1.navMesh
| |-- parpax-level1upg.navMesh
| |-- parpax-level2.navMesh
| |-- parpax-level2upg.navMesh
| |-- parpax-level3.navMesh
| |-- parpax-level3upg.navMesh
| |-- parpax-level4.navMesh
| `-- parpax.map
|-- parpax.txt
|-- scripts
| |-- parpax.arena
| |-- parpax_custom.shader
| |-- parpax_evillair.shader
| `-- parpax.particle
|-- sound
| `-- parpax
| |-- beep.wav
| |-- crane.wav
| |-- elevator_stop.wav
| |-- elevator.wav
| `-- humming.wav
`-- textures
|-- parpax_custom
| |-- bulb_yellow1.tga
| |-- elebutton_down.blend.tga
| |-- elebutton_go.blend.tga
| |-- elebutton_go.tga
| |-- elebutton.tga
| |-- elebutton_up.blend.tga
| |-- emergencyexit.tga
| `-- emergencyexit.xcf
|-- parpax_evillair
| |-- e6basegrt_smll.jpg
| |-- e6boltstrip.jpg
| |-- e6bsegrtflr256.tga
| |-- e6c_floor.jpg
| |-- e6cyb0rpipes.jpg
| |-- e6dmetal.jpg
| |-- e6drstmetal_b.jpg
| |-- e6drstmetal.jpg
| |-- e6dtrimnd.jpg
| |-- e6girdergrate.tga
| |-- e6grate2_flr_b.tga
| |-- e6grtfloorceil.tga
| |-- e6holestrip.tga
| |-- e6h_support.tga
| |-- e6metalfan_blade.tga
| |-- e6metalfan.tga
| |-- e6panelsym.jpg
| |-- e6q3support.jpg
| |-- e6simpwallsupp.jpg
| |-- e6simpwallsupp_red.jpg
| |-- e6tdoor_fx.tga
| |-- e6tdoor.tga
| |-- e6tekmtlrflr.jpg
| |-- e6tinylight_blend.jpg
| |-- e6tinylight.jpg
| |-- e6wallsupprt.jpg
| |-- e6xgratebasic_b.tga
| |-- e6xgratebasic.tga
| |-- e6x_supprt.tga
| |-- e8_base1b.jpg
| |-- e8_base1c.jpg
| |-- e8_base1.jpg
| |-- e8basictrim_blue.jpg
| |-- e8basictrim_red.jpg
| |-- e8beam01b.jpg
| |-- e8beam01.jpg
| |-- e8beam02.jpg
| |-- e8bolttrim.jpg
| |-- e8_btrim01b.jpg
| |-- e8_btrim01.jpg
| |-- e8_btrim02.jpg
| |-- e8_btrim03b.jpg
| |-- e8_btrim04b.jpg
| |-- e8_btrim05.jpg
| |-- e8cretefloor02.jpg
| |-- e8cretesmlltrim.jpg
| |-- e8mtltrim1b.jpg
| |-- e8_mtlwall1.jpg
| |-- e8_mtlwall2.jpg
| |-- e8_mtlwall3.jpg
| |-- e8_mtlwall4.jpg
| |-- e8smlltrim1.jpg
| |-- e8support02.jpg
| |-- e8support05.jpg
| |-- e8support06b.jpg
| |-- e8trimlight.blend.jpg
| |-- e8trimlight.jpg
| |-- e8warning128.jpg
| |-- e8warning256.jpg
| |-- e8xgirder.tga
| |-- eq2_32cap.jpg
| |-- eq2_32caplight.blend.jpg
| |-- eq2_32caplight.jpg
| |-- eq2_baselt03b.blend.jpg
| |-- eq2_baselt03b_blue.blend.jpg
| |-- eq2_baselt03b_blue.jpg
| |-- eq2_baselt03b.jpg
| |-- eq2_baselt03_blue.blend.jpg
| |-- eq2_baselt03_blue.jpg
| |-- eq2_bigmet_01.jpg
| |-- eq2_bmtl_01.jpg
| |-- eq2_bmtl_02_384.jpg
| |-- eq2_bmtl_02.jpg
| |-- eq2_bmtl_02up.jpg
| |-- eq2_bmtl_03.jpg
| |-- eq2_bmtl_03_light.blend.jpg
| |-- eq2_bmtl_03_light.jpg
| |-- eq2_bmtl_08.jpg
| |-- eq2_bmtl.jpg
| |-- eq2_bouncefan.tga
| |-- eq2_bounce.tga
| |-- eq2_fbase.jpg
| |-- eq2_fgrate_01.tga
| |-- eq2_floor_02.jpg
| |-- eq2_floor_04.jpg
| |-- eq2_floor_05.jpg
| |-- eq2_floor_06b.jpg
| |-- eq2_grate_01.tga
| |-- eq2_stepside_01.jpg
| |-- eq2_stepsidelight.blend.jpg
| |-- eq2_stepsidelight.jpg
| |-- eq2_trim_02.jpg
| |-- eq2_trimh_01.jpg
| |-- eq2_trimh_03cc.jpg
| |-- eq2_trimh_03c.jpg
| |-- eq2_trimh_03d.jpg
| |-- eq2_trimh_03e.jpg
| |-- eq2_trimlight_01s.blend.jpg
| |-- eq2_trimlight_01s.jpg
| |-- eq2_trimv_00.jpg
| |-- eq2_trimv_01b.jpg
| |-- eq2_trimv_02.jpg
| |-- eq2_trimv_04.jpg
| |-- eq2_trimv_05b.jpg
| |-- eq2_trimv_05.jpg
| |-- eq2_trimv_10b.jpg
| |-- eq2_trimv_11d.jpg
| |-- eq2_trimv_11.jpg
| |-- eq2_trimv_12b.jpg
| |-- eq2_trimv_lite.blend.jpg
| |-- eq2_trimv_lite.jpg
| |-- eq2_trimv_mini02b.jpg
| |-- eq2_trimv_mini02.jpg
| |-- eq2_trimv_mini.jpg
| `-- eq2_wire.jpg
|-- parpax_philipk
| |-- her_asphalt_1.jpg
| |-- mazfloor2.jpg
| |-- mazy_ofloor1.jpg
| |-- mazy_owall1f.jpg
| |-- mazy_plate1a.jpg
| |-- mazy_plate1b.jpg
| |-- mis_generic1b.jpg
| |-- mod_comwall1a.jpg
| |-- mod_comwall1b.jpg
| |-- mod_labfloor01a.jpg
| |-- mod_labtrim2a.jpg
| |-- mod_labtrim8a.jpg
| |-- mod_metdoor2.jpg
| |-- pkf_containr1b.jpg
| |-- pkf_containr1c.jpg
| |-- pkf_containr2b.jpg
| |-- pkf_containr2c.jpg
| |-- pkf_containr3b.jpg
| |-- pkf_containr3c.jpg
| |-- pkw_barrel02a.jpg
| `-- pkw_barrel02b.jpg
`-- parpax_ydnar
|-- base_grooved.tga
|-- base_verts.tga
|-- blackwall.tga
|-- cement_2_yellow.tga
|-- cement_3.tga
|-- concrete-pit-rows.tga
|-- flat_dk.tga
|-- metal-dark.tga
|-- metal-red.tga
|-- metal-tan-rivets.tga
|-- road-1.tga
`-- rust_1.tga
Maybe you have reached some engine limit: Number of pk3s, number of loaded shaders, ...
You should post a console dump and tell a developer about the issue.
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I found a major bug
congratulations, you've found yourself !
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I found a major bug
congratulations, you've found yourself !
Wait, is there like a ... pak limit, where when X is reached, new ones cancel out old ones? It may be related to the blackout bug that i have...
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is there like a ... pak limit, where when X is reached, new ones cancel out old ones?
as has been said over a trillion times, there is an operating system limit that limits the number of open files by a program to ~500 by default (true for all systems that i've encountered (eg., FreeBSD, Windows XP)). Q3-based games keep pk3 files open for fast access. this means that at most ~500 pk3 files will be "visible" to the engine.
there is a patch out there that increases the limit, go find it.
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I'm currently preparing for a test and will continue working on Parpax in two weeks. Since enhancing the map with the new path means some effort I will probably release Beta 4 by the end of October.
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Q3-based games keep pk3 files open for fast access. this means that at most ~500 pk3 files will be "visible" to the engine.
Deleting most of the obsolete Nalf######.pk3s, rcz unlimited etc. works for me.
@viech: What changes are there? Here is my opinion for change:
>With enough players, the game turns into human-bias. Maybe its the ramp in the human default...
>There needs to be another alternative pathway to human default with an exception of ele, vent, and the staircase. Currently it is faster for me to take the staircase as a marauder to get back to base rather than using the lift. And as for humans, it takes a long time both ways, which can be irritating for small games.
>A vent to the human base can't even fit dretches probably because you didn't expand the space as the vent leans downwards (boundryboxes do not rotate)
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@viech: What changes are there?
The following stuff is still on my list or already done:
- The elevator will move much faster
- I will add a new path which is going to be independent of the current regions. It will connect long hall to unnamed hall and thus be a direct connection of the secondary entrances of both default bases.
- Both the lower and upper floor are too open which rewards camping. I will close the path from upper storage to unnamed hall and the path from lower storage to lower fork. lower fork, dome room and stairs entry might be redone in order to make the path to the stairs shorter.
- I already replaced a lot of textures, Beta 4 will only depend on a few exterior resources, if any
- Human players will be able to jump on all boxes, regardless of their FPS
Apart from that:
- I will change a few things in elevator shaft (there's a lot of leftover stuff, for example it doesn't make any sense that the ladder is at the side of the doors, it should rather be at the side of elevator room).
- The hole at the top of the elevator car will move to the middle of the car. This should lead to less humans being squished at the corner above the door and will make it harder for aliens to leave the car after attacking incoming humans.
- The stairs will be connected to ventilation room. I don't know what this is good for but they are already next to each other and if I'm lucky it will add some relevance to the stairs. It can probably be used to escape from rants.
- The unnamed hall will get some sort of vis-blocker in order to separate the alien default's front and side entrances even more.
>With enough players, the game turns into human-bias. Maybe its the ramp in the human default...
I really don't see a human biased map. The human default isn't as weak as on many default maps but it has significant security holes. Non-advanced maras and lisks can sneak-attack turrets by entering through the pipe shafts, advanced marauders can even zap buildings that are cluttered on the pipes above the default armory (I've seen a mara zap a DC, Node and Turret this way in a single attack without taking any damage).
The fact that a small number of players means alien-biased and a big number of players means human-biased looks like a tremulous-specific problem to me - especially on public servers, where the necessary teamplay among humans is more likely to happen when the map is cluttered with players. On the other hand, more players usually means more camprants. While I don't want to anticipate teamplay I'll try my best to make Parpax a worse map for campers.
Speaking balance in general, I like maps that are easy to learn but hard to master. While I agree that Parpax turned out more complex than I wanted it to be in the first place I think that I managed to do a good job on the second part. I built a lot of shortcuts and security holes that need some skill and knowledge of the map to exploit. Many players haven't learned them yet and as soon as they do it will affect balance, making it hard for me to foresee any bias. For example, few players know that humans can easily outpace camprants by flying on the pipes at alien default. When more players find out there will probably be less tyrants on defense and thus less draws.
>There needs to be another alternative pathway to human default with an exception of ele, vent, and the staircase. Currently it is faster for me to take the staircase as a marauder to get back to base rather than using the lift. And as for humans, it takes a long time both ways, which can be irritating for small games.
This is exactly what the new path should be. :)
(With a little training, (advanced) maras can also use the vents to go up!)
>A vent to the human base can't even fit dretches probably because you didn't expand the space as the vent leans downwards (boundryboxes do not rotate)
Uhm, I think I already fixed that. The last time I played (the bleeding edge version) even humans could crouch through there.
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I really don't see a human biased map.
too much open spaces, halls too wide, and beveled walls fuck wallwalk.
ive been playing this map quite a bit, and also exploring it on my own. the layout is good, it's just the details.
oh, and you might want to un-straighten the long straight halls leading into the alien default. quite a few humans have the nasty habit of sitting at the end of any long, straight, hall on any map, and just spamming fire down said hall. the cover isnt too bad, but it is not enough, the halls are so wide defensive structures are next to useless, and ambushes are ill advised.... too much space to cover before you can conceivably do any damage at all.
edit: what i mean to say about beveled walls fucking wallwalk is this: the range of an alien's attacks is constant. the way the bevel positions you what would be inside the geometry of a flat wall reduces your range. compound that with your already too-wide halls, and you have a map very unkind to things smaller than a mara.
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>With enough players, the game turns into human-bias. Maybe its the ramp in the human default...
I really don't see a human biased map. The human default isn't as weak as on many default maps but it has significant security holes. Non-advanced maras and lisks can sneak-attack turrets by entering through the pipe shafts, advanced marauders can even zap buildings that are cluttered on the pipes above the default armory (I've seen a mara zap a DC, Node and Turret this way in a single attack without taking any damage).
Apparently adv marauders can't get into the human base through vents. They don't fit.
(With a little training, (advanced) maras can also use the vents to go up!)
*With no training... just aim where to star the jump, then holding a directional key will work in both 1.1, gpp and unv.
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Apparently adv marauders can't get into the human base through vents. They don't fit.
Yes but they can get close enough to zap if buildings on the pipe above default armory are too close to the hole. A well placed turret however will shoot anything going through that hole and can't be zapped (you can even place such a turret on stage one by jumping on the RC and then jumping towards the pipes).
Advanced marauders shouldn't be able to go through the holes, that would just be frustrating for humans and force them to camp.
oh, and you might want to un-straighten the long straight halls leading into the alien default. quite a few humans have the nasty habit of sitting at the end of any long, straight, hall on any map, and just spamming fire down said hall. the cover isnt too bad, but it is not enough, the halls are so wide defensive structures are next to useless, and ambushes are ill advised.... too much space to cover before you can conceivably do any damage at all.
As I said, Unnamed Hall will be un-straightened. Since Long Hall will have two ways for aliens to flee (plus the hole towards the Pipe Shafts), has plenty of obstacles and is rather thin I'm planning to leave it long for now. The path from Ventilation Hall through Octagon Hall inside the alien base might need some obstacles but I also think of it as a reward for humans that fly up the vents or use the stairs. I like the stairs and would love to see them remain in use by both teams when the new path arrives. Lower Storage and Upper Storage might need some obstacles, too, to favor attackers using the elevator.
what i mean to say about beveled walls fucking wallwalk is this: the range of an alien's attacks is constant. the way the bevel positions you what would be inside the geometry of a flat wall reduces your range. compound that with your already too-wide halls, and you have a map very unkind to things smaller than a mara.
What halls are too wide? Other people told me that halls were to thin, so I'm a little confused now. Maybe it depends on your perspective: If alien players think they are too wide to wallwalk and humans think they are too thin to dodge they seem to be both balanced and frustrating for both teams. Maybe it would be best to have alien-favored halls on the lower floor and human-favored halls on the upper floor? I admit this is something I never thought about in the design process but I'll look more closely at it when changing stuff.
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As I said, Unnamed Hall will be un-straightened. Since Long Hall will have two ways for aliens to flee (plus the hole towards the Pipe Shafts), has plenty of obstacles and is rather thin I'm planning to leave it long for now. The path from Ventilation Hall through Octagon Hall inside the alien base might need some obstacles but I also think of it as a reward for humans that fly up the vents or use the stairs. I like the stairs and would love to see them remain in use by both teams when the new path arrives. Lower Storage and Upper Storage might need some obstacles, too, to favor attackers using the elevator.
What halls are too wide? Other people told me that halls were to thin, so I'm a little confused now. Maybe it depends on your perspective: If alien players think they are too wide to wallwalk and humans think they are too thin to dodge they seem to be both balanced and frustrating for both teams. Maybe it would be best to have alien-favored halls on the lower floor and human-favored halls on the upper floor? I admit this is something I never thought about in the design process but I'll look more closely at it when changing stuff.
sorry, i hadent been paying attention to the location names ingame, so i didnt really know which halls were on the to-do list. in specific i was referring to the hallway that intersects the elevator alcove, and the hall parallel to it on the right. especially that one on the right. the other is much to wide for the start of the game, though as the game progresses (and larger aliens are available) it becomes less of a problem. i guess in that light, it's really fine, i just dont like its proximity to the alien base. i'd be happier with that whole elevator setup a little closer to the "middle" of the map, as opposed to right outside my front door.
it's really hard to gauge the width of most of the halls. most of them have irregular geometry. off the top of my head, the beveled walls on any hallway make the hall "too wide" while at the same time keeping it "too narrow" for non-wallwalkers. that might be part of the reason you are getting conflicting reports. it's too narrow for anyone on the floor, and too wide for anyone on the wall.
another example is the one parallel to the one that intersects the elevator. it has all those boxes and pillars on the left, but the right is totally clean of any obstruction (till you get around the door into the alien base). the only wall available for walking is the one with no cover. just about anywhere you can build a defensive structure is exposed to a point where a human out of the structure's range can get an easy kill. and while the left side of the hall is "open", its not really useful for anything, especially at any time passed hs1. this leads to the hall being both too narrow, and too wide.
oh, "left" and "right" are relative to leaving the alien base. all in all, it's a pretty good map, it just makes use of some of my pet peeves (what ive been telling you about)
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As I said, Unnamed Hall will be un-straightened. Since Long Hall will have two ways for aliens to flee (plus the hole towards the Pipe Shafts), has plenty of obstacles and is rather thin I'm planning to leave it long for now.
What annoys me about that hall is that the obstacles - only advantage humans. The only time i go near those obsticals is when i'm rushing the alien base while someone comes at me. And the straighter half is, well, long. If i see pan playing humans, i won't join aliens. [his md aim is suppositely good]http://aussieassault.net/statistics/player/2549 (http://aussieassault.net/statistics/player/2549)
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another example is the one parallel to the one that intersects the elevator. (Note by Viech: This is Unnamed Hall) it has all those boxes and pillars on the left, but the right is totally clean of any obstruction (till you get around the door into the alien base). the only wall available for walking is the one with no cover. just about anywhere you can build a defensive structure is exposed to a point where a human out of the structure's range can get an easy kill. and while the left side of the hall is "open", its not really useful for anything, especially at any time passed hs1. this leads to the hall being both too narrow, and too wide.
As I said, Unnamed Hall will be un-straightened. Since Long Hall will have two ways for aliens to flee (plus the hole towards the Pipe Shafts), has plenty of obstacles and is rather thin I'm planning to leave it long for now.
What annoys me about that hall is that the obstacles - only advantage humans. The only time i go near those obsticals is when i'm rushing the alien base while someone comes at me. And the straighter half is, well, long. If i see pan playing humans, i won't join aliens. [his md aim is suppositely good]http://aussieassault.net/statistics/player/2549 (http://aussieassault.net/statistics/player/2549)
I assume your second comment is also related to Unnamed Hall, even though you're quoting me talking about Long Hall (the hall at the human default's side entrance). Correct me if you are actually criticising Long Hall!
I thought of Unnamed Hall as a nice place to build trappers and hidden eggs but you are probably right. As my attempts to unstraighten it currently make it look even more cluttered/chaotic to the point that it breaks the overall style of the map I'm actually really open to replacing it completely. I also noticed that the pipes on the floor close to alien default are tyrant-killers and that wallwalking is a pita on both sides of the hall. I will leave the small storage area in Ventilation Hall but replace Unnamed Hall with a new region that has a smoother, non-straight design. It will probably form a delta between Ventilation Hall, Strange Machine (alien default) and the new path that leads down to Long Hall. I wish I could do proper gameplay testing before detailing all that stuff. ;D
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Since I was busy and haven't released a new Beta for a while I decided to release my current working version, Beta 3E. It includes a concept for the new path (starts at long hall, forks towards alien base and ventilation hall) and a handful of changes and bugfixes mainly to the elevator and the upper area.
Download Beta 3 Revision E (http://188.40.187.142/files/map-parpax-b03e.pk3)
If you feel like the gameplay improvements outweight the poor graphics of the path concept feel free to put it on your server, the pk3 is as clean as any other release.
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Download Beta 3 Revision G (http://188.40.187.142/files/map-parpax-b03g.pk3)
Beta 4 is on its way. :)
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best map 8)
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best map 8)
Yeah, I made it just for you Pax! :)
Btw.:
Download Beta 3 Revision I (http://188.40.187.142/files/map-parpax-b03i.pk3)
Beta 4 is imminent…
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Beta 4 is done and already online on the official GPP servers! :)
For this release I included an alternative layout named aggressive. On aggressive, both teams have rather weak bases: The humans start at lower storage, the aliens have their default base at upper storage. If the layout turns out to be both balanced and fun it will replace the classic layout (humans at power distributor, aliens at strange machine) in the next release. Layouts should be loaded at random but unfortunately GPP has no way of voting for a specific layout.
Beta 4 Changelog
- New areas: "O-stairs", "tank room", "hangar". They form a third connection between the lower and the upper floor (thanks to Menace and `Ishq).
- The area "stairs entry" has been replaced with new areas ("missing tank room", "windowless room").
- "upper sorage" now connects to the new "tank room" instead of "unnamed hall". The latter has been removed.
- "ventilation room" now connects to the stairs (new name: "D-stairs").
- The elevator car and shaft have been modified. The hole in the ceiling of the car has been centered and the car is now open at the back. The car moves a lot faster.
- The girders in lower storage have been removed and the room isn't as tall anymore. The door towards "lower fork" has been removed, the latter has been renamed to "unnamed room" since it doesn't fork anymore.
- The huge shutter doors between power distributor and lower storage open significantly faster.
- I've added an alternative layout named "aggressive" where aliens start in upper storage and humans in lower storage. If it works out it might become the default layout.
- More textures have been replaced and included in the pk3 file.
- Lights have been scaled up by 10%.
- Probably a lot of bugfixes and minor improvments that I forgot about.
Download Parpax Beta 4 (http://188.40.187.142/files/map-parpax-b04.pk3)
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A few more recent screenshots.
(http://i.imgur.com/6W7hKCJ.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/4E5ylAN.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/s9LZWff.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Nfcqh5G.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/2Pe2e5K.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/oJPSloZ.jpg)
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i really like it A+