Tremulous Forum

General => Feedback => Topic started by: jigidyjensen1 on November 21, 2007, 09:50:07 am

Title: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: jigidyjensen1 on November 21, 2007, 09:50:07 am
I just want to say something about fighting goons as humans.  To many players say that it is too hard or impossible for humans to take on goons.  I just have this to say.

At stage 1, I have a about a 30% chance of beating the goon.
At stage 2, I have a 80% chance of beating a goon.
At stage 3, I eat goons for breakfast, I almost never loose a duel with a goon.

And I am not talking about just fighting noob players, but fighting players with an average competence in the game.  Against the very best players (and I mean the very best), I still probably beat them at least 40% of the time at stage 2.

But people usually laugh when they see what gear I grab to fight them with.

I think people loose fights with goons because they are scared of really getting to close to them.  I fight them at point blank range, and that seem to be the most effective means of fighting them.

Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: Haraldx on November 21, 2007, 01:21:37 pm
at stage 1 it is imposible to kill a goon ! one time i was one ! it was on atcs ! i was sitting on bunker and eating those humans ! they sent 3 poeple with rifle i ate them all ! i made ''We have evolved'' and in total i made 10 or 7 frags ! then they take some better guns and rifled me down ! :( ! it was fun eating ! but i had enough evos for another evolve ! but i forgot 1 thing ! they all bought brand new guns and it was useless ! :(
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: + OPTIMUS + on November 21, 2007, 02:44:18 pm

+LOLLYPOPE+
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: ShadowNinjaDudeMan on November 21, 2007, 05:09:30 pm
Haraldx, do you need a crash course in English Text punctuation or form?

Or are you trying to look cool?
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: Shadowgandor on November 21, 2007, 08:25:25 pm
Well...he did use !, which is a start :P
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: HamStar on November 21, 2007, 08:39:49 pm
Well at least he doesn't start every word with a capital letter. Like This Lol.
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: epsy on November 21, 2007, 10:30:01 pm
goons aren't very hard to kill at s1

use a lasgun, then turn around your goon when it starts pouncing over you, crouch if needed, while continuing shooting

after 2/3 missed pounces he'ill be low on hp and he'ill likely run away

don't let him go! continue shooting at him until he dies or until you just can't follow it anymoreor even, lost it :P

Then, to get enough credits for lasguns, there's teamplay and dretch-killing :)
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: Lava Croft on November 21, 2007, 11:16:11 pm
Dragoons are meant to kill your Stage 1 Human. Tag along with a friend if you are not able to cope with it yourself. You'd be amazed at how fast Dragoons go down if you have a friend that is also shooting its general direction.
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: + OPTIMUS + on November 22, 2007, 01:24:03 pm
Dragoons are meant to kill your Stage 1 Human. Tag along with a friend if you are not able to cope with it yourself. You'd be amazed at how fast Dragoons go down if you have a friend that is also shooting its general direction.

Thats why there are not so many goons at clan wars.
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: Bajsefar on November 22, 2007, 04:11:54 pm
Goons can use pounce to move as fast or faster than a marauder for the means of dodging though. But only 1 goon can attack a cluster of humans, while several maras can leap into the fray without slicing each other/getting stuck.
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: Shadowgandor on November 22, 2007, 05:40:23 pm
Goons can use pounce to move as fast or faster than a marauder for the means of dodging though. But only 1 goon can attack a cluster of humans, while several maras can leap into the fray without slicing each other/getting stuck.

I do not agree with the mara part, but feeling silly for accidently hitting fellow marauders while aiming at hummies, i am not going to explain ^^
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: _Equilibrium_ on November 22, 2007, 06:38:18 pm
Goons can use pounce to move as fast or faster than a marauder for the means of dodging though. But only 1 goon can attack a cluster of humans, while several maras can leap into the fray without slicing each other/getting stuck.
sandwiches are always good.
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: Samurai.mac on November 23, 2007, 03:08:01 pm
It's not impossible to kill a Dragoon at Stage 1. The best tactic, in my opinion, is to get alongside them with a shotgun or painsaw, circle them, and if they cotton on to what you're doing, jump in the opposite direction.
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: maxell on November 25, 2007, 02:12:28 am
i have tried many different weapons VS goons but i cannot find the best knowing that the painsaw have a great damage over a small range and the massy same but it is long range so what is the best ? can u help me cause i keep dieing each time i am face to a dragoon :(
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: Higher Game on November 25, 2007, 08:42:30 am
Goons are extremely powerful. I once faced one, with 2 humans as backup, all with a helmet and light armor, and it killed me in a single hit, and then killed both of my helpers with single hits as well. It then retreated, healed, and went back to more killing. It simply moved too fast to damage appreciably.

They should have reduced damage so they don't instakill tier 2 humans with their normal attack. They are also shockingly agile for their size, to the point where they are probably harder to kill than tyrants. They have the perfect combination of health and speed.

In fact, unless the humans have battlesuits, the dragoon is probably SUPERIOR to the tyrant in slaughtering humans. The shotgun is probably the best weapon them because it does decent damage all at once. The painsaw might only run 1/10 of a second against him, doing negligible damage, before he turns and butchers you. The other weapons that do damage over time generally fail in the same way. The mass driver might be decent at long range, but only newbie dragoons allow you to engage them at a distance. For the most part, shotgun and lots of backup are how to take out a dragoon.

Maybe they should have very few hit points, like 100, to compensate them for their tremendous power (relative to their cost).
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: + OPTIMUS + on November 26, 2007, 01:27:28 pm
noez noez noez...
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: Steely Ann on November 26, 2007, 02:07:15 pm
Higher Lame

You're having problems taking down a lone goon with a trio of S2 humans, eh?
*psst!* The problem doesn't lie with the goon.
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: Shadowgandor on November 26, 2007, 03:01:52 pm
Higher Lame

You're having problems taking down a lone goon with a trio of S2 humans, eh?
*psst!* The problem doesn't lie with the goon.

LOL, +1.

Anyway, at higher lame, aliens that cost more evos doesn't necesarily mean they can kill better. One might solo 4 humans with one basi while getting killed by 1 hummie as a tyrant, that's just the way it is. Ofcourse, aiming helps killing both of em :)
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: jr2 on November 26, 2007, 08:41:01 pm
Pfft!  Aiming my granny!
/me suspects aliens that are killwhores use custom HUDs to determine their aim.
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: Higher Game on November 26, 2007, 08:48:11 pm
I'm just as skilled as anyone else and the problem is with game balance, not me! Especially not me and 2 other people backing me up against a single dragoon! It's a big problem with 3 or 4 dragoons can eliminate an entire human team of a dozen players. Only battlesuits can even the match, and by the time they are available, tyrants are around and can kill anything.

Only an absolute moron with a tyrant would get killed by a single human. It takes half a dozen men to face a tyrant with a decent chance.
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: jr2 on November 26, 2007, 08:54:11 pm
Looky here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjNf05AeHtY) if you need proof of the Goon's killing power.  Although, those do seem to be newb humans.  Not that it would matter.
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: Overdose on November 26, 2007, 08:57:06 pm
I'm just as skilled as anyone else and the problem is with game balance, not me! Especially not me and 2 other people backing me up against a single dragoon! It's a big problem with 3 or 4 dragoons can eliminate an entire human team of a dozen players. Only battlesuits can even the match, and by the time they are available, tyrants are around and can kill anything.

Only an absolute moron with a tyrant would get killed by a single human. It takes half a dozen men to face a tyrant with a decent chance.

How long have you been playing that you can make these statements? I can kill the average goon by myself with any weapon (excluding the painsaw :( ), but as a dragoon I can take out upwards of 5 humans in just a few seconds. A single battlesuit can easily take even a skilled tyrant, you just have to avoid getting hit.

*Pro Tip* If you can move around/dodge/avoid/and just plain travel faster than the average player you can kill any opponent. Simple as that. */Pro Tip* (always wanted to give "pro tip" :D )
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: Higher Game on November 26, 2007, 09:02:51 pm
That perfect pounce must be on a low-g mod server, since whenever I pounce with a dragoon it's just a short little burst, actually resembling the tyrant's charge more than an actual jump. That, or I highly suspect there are jump hacks out there, since I can't see how many people jump really high. Some people jump up and get head shots with dretches, while I have to attack from the wall to do that, since my jumps only take me up to chest level.

I say I'm as good as anyone else because I find that I'm about average on the scoreboard, above newbies and below nerds. The 2 guys backing me up were about as good as I am. The dragoon just killed us all in 2 seconds. We didn't have a fair chance to fight back because it was just too fast.
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: Overdose on November 26, 2007, 09:08:54 pm
First of all, That video was played with slow motion so you could see all of his movements.
Secondly, dretches can headshot from the ground, let alone jumping.
And lastly, number of kills does not make you a good player. What makes the lower scoring players noobs and the higher ones nerds? That seems pretty prejudice to me.
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: Higher Game on November 26, 2007, 09:12:49 pm
How do dretches get a head shot without jumping? I only hit the leg from the ground, and body with a jump. It would be helpful it they had an actual attack instead of just doing damage from touching the enemy.
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: Overdose on November 26, 2007, 09:24:00 pm
Look up.
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: AKAnotu on November 26, 2007, 10:07:40 pm
That perfect pounce must be on a low-g mod server, since whenever I pounce with a dragoon it's just a short little burst, actually resembling the tyrant's charge more than an actual jump. That, or I highly suspect there are jump hacks out there, since I can't see how many people jump really high. Some people jump up and get head shots with dretches, while I have to attack from the wall to do that, since my jumps only take me up to chest level.

I say I'm as good as anyone else because I find that I'm about average on the scoreboard, above newbies and below nerds. The 2 guys backing me up were about as good as I am. The dragoon just killed us all in 2 seconds. We didn't have a fair chance to fight back because it was just too fast.
look higher for a higher jump.
by the way, the dragoon you fought was just more skilled than you are. it's pretty easy for three humans to take down a dragoon if they know how to dodge (and/or have shottys)
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: Ryan on November 26, 2007, 11:46:11 pm
@ higher game
i recommend you spec some good goon players. it's not easy to play goon well. as far as pouncing far/high, the longer you charge your pounce the more power you'll have...it also helps to release that power at an upwards angle rather than into the ground. practice moving only by pouncing and you'll get the hang of it.
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: Steely Ann on November 27, 2007, 12:25:37 am
Ryan

Not bad for a first post.  Thanks for sparing me the trouble of explaining goon movement.  Not that I would've anyway, but uh...

+1.
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: Tycho on November 27, 2007, 12:28:12 am
@Higher Game: at first I thought I'd laugh myself silly after I've read you posts but now I feel sorry for you. You really should listen to these nice guys here trying to help you. Also you might want to check youtube for some video how-tos to watch ;)

@Steely Ann: so you basically thank him for giving HG a proper answer so you don't have to read more painfully stupid posts from other noobs/evil bastards? ::) ;D :angel:
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: Illuminatio on November 27, 2007, 05:26:19 am
The dragoon has always been an overpowered class ... just like the rest of the alien team.
I have been told that in the subsequent version of Tremulous, the issue of balance has been addressed.
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: + OPTIMUS + on November 27, 2007, 09:42:35 am

(http://fp.enter.net/~jkool/images/MK/MK%20Gifs/liukangwins.gif)


Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: Overdose on November 27, 2007, 10:32:05 am
Classic, <3 Mortal Kombat :D
Oh great, now the theme song is stuck in my head....
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: Higher Game on December 01, 2007, 01:36:40 am
I killed a jetpacking human in a single pounce with a dragoon. Those things are insane.  :o
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: jr2 on December 01, 2007, 07:49:06 am
I just had an epiphany whilst playing as goon.... XD  Must've pwnt about a dozen people, plus a dozen and a half more as a dretch.  Must say, it feels good being a major pain-in-the-ass to ppl.  'Cause I know just how frustrating it is to have half of your group of 6 killed in 4 seconds, and then have the enemy disappear without a trace, and all you got to kill were the dretch or two (if you're lucky) that helped him.
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: + OPTIMUS + on December 04, 2007, 04:35:04 am
Dragoons are meant to kill your Skill 1 Human.

Fix'o'red
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: Ryan on December 05, 2007, 04:33:43 am
I killed a jetpacking human in a single pounce with a dragoon. Those things are insane.  :o

That is how the game works - one fully charged pounce kills a human with no armor. I recommend reading the manual. This is where strategy comes in - one unarmored human vs. goon is suicide. Wear armor and/or play as a team.
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: jr2 on December 05, 2007, 07:37:01 am
Armor doesn't help if he lands on your head.  And he will.
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: Steely Ann on December 05, 2007, 01:38:11 pm
Pretty much off-topic, but I had a tyrant miserably phail last night.  I gave chase to one (I guess I was feeling suicidal) with armor but no helmet.  Blasted him twice with my shotgun for a kill and had 33hp left from his two swipes.  I won't name anybody, of course.  ;D
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: NiTRoX on December 05, 2007, 01:50:25 pm
Meany Ann  :angel:
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: jr2 on December 05, 2007, 01:57:44 pm
Pretty much off-topic, but I had a tyrant miserably phail last night.  I gave chase to one (I guess I was feeling suicidal) with armor but no helmet.  Blasted him twice with my shotgun for a kill and had 33hp left from his two swipes.  I won't name anybody, of course.  ;D

... the heck?!?  I try that often enough (being a hummy and trying to dodge a rant, I mean)... one swipe, one kill.  How the heck did you manage that?  Is it a matter of him not getting your head or something?

EDIT: Oh, and while I'm at it, I can never side step them... although on-screen it looks like I succeeded, as the rant goes by me, he swipes, and it doesn't matter that I'm hugging the wall opposite of him in the hallway, I fall over as if by magic.  I must have had a good 10 feet between his claws and me when I got killed.  :/
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: Samurai.mac on December 05, 2007, 04:57:00 pm
Just a little thing I'm confused about with the Dragoon pounce, do you have to land on top of your target or just hit them?
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: demenator on December 05, 2007, 05:42:07 pm
Just a little thing I'm confused about with the Dragoon pounce, do you have to land on top of your target or just hit them?

Try aming with the middle of the screen. By you need to take of the ground preaty much to use pounce. Aim up if you dont go flying.


And to coment on the discution on humans vs goons.
The chanses very on how good is the goon and how good are you. Also it is the style goon is playing.
different style goons recure different wepons.
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: Tremulant on December 05, 2007, 05:52:51 pm
Just a little thing I'm confused about with the Dragoon pounce, do you have to land on top of your target or just hit them?

If they've no armour or helmet then it can be a glancing blow as you pounce away, you certainly don't need to land on them.
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: MDRIVER on December 06, 2007, 05:59:32 am
ay yai,
who the hell is playing now a days....
Goons are meant to be killwhores. It was meant for killwhores especially in s1. In s2, it is harder but it is so doable and s3, If you cant take down a noob bsuit with a goon, cant help you. My advice is to watch other people. They tend to slash their mouse when they chomp and some people use the pounces excessively, either way, the goon is a killing machine which is second to the tyrant. When a goon, face upwards, head bites always get ko kills on first attempt unless you miss. Dont stand in front of human fire. I have some wierd expreiences but goons just walk into my md fire to attempt to chomp at me, swaying will prevent less damage to yourself. And dont over pounce. Some people, when they run away, always bump into walls and cant run away. Namely myself. Lastly, it isnt hard to take down 5 average people. it is actually quite easy. Pounce the first, chomp the second and third and depending on how far, continue to move around (pounce if far). If low on health, dont try to run away if you know the enemy is low on health. Just jump around using the spacebar and look down at his head. This works effectively to kill people in base. Turrets will hit less you jump around allot. One more thing. I have experimented with this, but if you pounce in a whiplike fashion, aimupwards and then suddenly look downwards after realease, you seem to move faster and the pounce seems to do more damage. Yes goons are powerful. 
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: jr2 on December 06, 2007, 08:04:07 am
Hmm.  I never would have guessed.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: daenyth on December 10, 2007, 05:00:19 pm
Let's throw some numbers in, because noobs seem to not understand how the game works

Dragoon:
HP
- 200
Damage per bite
- Base: 80
- Head: 160
- Legs: 40
Pounce
- Base: 100 (NON-locational)

Base damage means that it is vs a naked human, no armor, no helmet, no bsuit.
When armor is added to the mix, things change:

Vs a human with only Light Armor:
Pounce = 31 damage
Headchomp: Still 160
Bodychomp: Not sure, but lower

Vs human with Helmet and Light Armor:
Not sure of the numbers, but 1 pounce + 2 headbite is a kill.

Vs Bsuit:
Unless you know what you're doing, stay away from these with a goon. if the suit is at all competant with his medkit and stamina, it is quite likely you will die.
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: jr2 on December 10, 2007, 07:31:55 pm
Vs human with Helmet:
Not sure of the numbers, but 1 pounce + 2 headbite is a kill.

Eh?  I'm pretty sure I've seen it done with 1 pounce / 1 headbite.  Quite effective, I must say.  Do you mean with Light Armor and Helmet?
Title: Re: Goons vs. Humans
Post by: daenyth on December 10, 2007, 11:24:34 pm
Yes, I did mean LA+H. Not-so-ninja-edit forthcoming.