Tremulous Forum
Community => Strategies and Tactics => Topic started by: The Crazie Coward on December 04, 2007, 04:40:24 am
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This poll is to provide information to c-kit users and their building plans. We are taking an average here, so its most likely offical.
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uhh...2-3 secs walking... wich way...? :-)))
where could you exactly imagine this on... ATCS, UTCS, and so on...? at most bases 2-3 secs away is out of defendable reach. could work maybe at tremor but i rly doubt.
if you still have money get armored and buy energy weapons, if not, protect the arm with your own body from sniping.
of course if your team is doing cool and you owned the enemy, make a 2nd armory near THEIR base.
+the lame tactic ofc, to block the way with a bonus armory while others are rebuilding turrets <.<
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A blocker arm is about the only way to avoid massive pwnage every 45 seconds on ATCS. If the rants can make it to your rets, you're a goner. Your only hope is either a stalemate, or, if you have enough uber-1337 (cheating?) players on your side, you might be able to nuke their spawns. Not very darn likely. A well maintained blocker arm with a medi serves as a platform where you can hold back the tide of Rants swarming your base. Now, the only problem is the Adv Goons, you need a few MD guys for them. And it still doesn't solve the problem of getting to the alien base.
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Or you can cut down on the suck, actually kill the would-be assaulters and keep doing so until you sufficiently drain them of evo points. Then it all goes downhill, in a good way. ;D
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i think using an ammo to block is useless.. yes it can take an extra impact from a rant or sniping goon
but .. why not use a turret that also does a bit of damage :P they cant get passed it untill it blows up anyways.. plus blowing up deals bonus damage :laugh:
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i think using an ammo to block is useless.. yes it can take an extra impact from a rant or sniping goon
but .. why not use a turret that also does a bit of damage :P they cant get passed it untill it blows up anyways.. plus blowing up deals bonus damage :laugh:
Point is, turret will blow even if someone repairs it while goon is sniping it. Turret has 190 hp, goon snipes 110 damage per sec. And tyr destroys it, while having about 50 damage from turret. So one way or another, turret is bad blocking device. Armory has 280 hp. If goons throws all barbs on it, total damage is 330 on 2 secs. You must heal atleast 50 damage to survive third blow. Its like 50:50 chance, sometimes you success, sometimes you not. Big disadvatage on arms is, they are to big, humans shoot at him,its hard to go over it and its big target to snipe. So, in some situatsions, its better to use telenode. Advantages are, 310 hp(if you repair, goon cant destroy it with 3 barbs), its harder to snipe, you have faster respawns -> more defending humans. Disadvantages, destroyer gets 1 evo, There are not many places where you can put it as a blocker.
Mostly, it there are alot players, arm or tele as blocker works. If less, then use better turrets on great numbers.
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The best way to delay the death of your base is to take out the oppositions base. I've seen an arm be used somewhat effectively as a blocking device, but as with all other buildings, it goes down at sd. If you want to protect your base in SD, I wouldn't rely on one blocking structure. Also, blocking structures block your team, and thats just rude :)
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best is to just place a turret just outside base... tyrants will always go for that turret.. destroy it and charge back... savign allot of damage to the turrets in your base, plus if you have a decent team the rant often dies just because he destroys a distractor turrret 8)
if your beeing attacked its always good to have a builder.. why not use 8 BP's to save the rest :)
without that turret rants mostly go for your ammo if they can and else they try to destroy multiple turrets (with blowing up damaging everything around them)
suits are much more effective in blocking a rant just by trying to stick your chaingun as far as possible up his ass
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Contrary to popular belief, I've found forward bases can be quite effective for humans (especially on servers with extra build points!) as long as you can put your main base in a well defended position. On Niveus (or is it Nexus? I can never remember which is which) putting a repeater, armoury, medistation and possibly a turret (although not strictly necessary) under the stairs near the window room, should the alien decide to move there (which they often do) makes a good resupply station for heavy weapons to quickly do some damage to a base.
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Contrary to popular belief, I've found forward bases can be quite effective for humans (especially on servers with extra build points!) as long as you can put your main base in a well defended position. On Niveus (or is it Nexus? I can never remember which is which) putting a repeater, armoury, medistation and possibly a turret (although not strictly necessary) under the stairs near the window room, should the alien decide to move there (which they often do) makes a good resupply station for heavy weapons to quickly do some damage to a base.
or build the ammo just outside the window room if aliens are innit, face the door.. let a team mate open it
and use your mass basenader script :) wich some aiming BOOM bye bye alien base :P
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I mostly play SST Tremulous sever which has 260bps(alot) and just feel the stupidity of seeing others make 2 arms....(which both are totaly destroyed 30 seconds after the first arm), it seems kinda dumb. They always say....1 main armory, 1 backup armory......which is like a stone's throw away from each other.
When they both goes boom boom in the end, i told them 2 arms stinks but as usual.....they say if we hadn't have the backup arm we woulda die much EARILER....SUCH CRAP!
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I don't make it for a backup arm... I just make it to put a dent in the Rants' ATCS swing in - swipe-swipe-swipe - run like a chicken routine... which it does, as long as someone's repairing it, and there are a few people to guard it.
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The ONLY map where a blocking arm is good is on ATCS, placed on the ramp near H base. And even with that, it has to be the sdmode where you can rebuild arms. It prevetns tyrant from camping around the corner, which is probably the most important thing there.
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Double armories are only effective if they're placed far apart and in hard-to-reach places. There's no point in putting two armories on either side of the reactor; you need them far apart.
As a rule of thumb, if a dragoon can pounce from one armory to the other without hitting any obstacles, they need to be a) further apart, or b) protected by some other buildable or mapmade structure.
Visually:
................|......|
................|......|
................|A....|
__________|......|
A..............B......|
........................|
_______________|
Where
_ and |= Walls
A= Ideal armory location
B= Bad armory location
From this diagram, you can see that one armory at either A point and one armory at B point makes them both easily killed. However, if you place both armories in each of the A points, you have at least some protection because of the walls between them.
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The ONLY map where a blocking arm is good is on ATCS, placed on the ramp near H base. And even with that, it has to be the sdmode where you can rebuild arms. It prevetns tyrant from camping around the corner, which is probably the most important thing there.
...Exactly what I was doing. :D Except one time it wasn't SD mode where you could rebuild arms... it delayed the inevitable for about 5 extra minutes, maybe.
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The ONLY map where a blocking arm is good is on ATCS, placed on the ramp near H base. And even with that, it has to be the sdmode where you can rebuild arms. It prevetns tyrant from camping around the corner, which is probably the most important thing there.
...Exactly what I was doing. :D Except one time it wasn't SD mode where you could rebuild arms... it delayed the inevitable for about 5 extra minutes, maybe.
It's still good, although it loses 70% of its usefulness. A good builder should be able to judge by the situation at hand though.
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Building 2 Armories is not only stupid, is is contraproductive. It takes up too much space, it takes up too much build points and does too little for that price. While I can (sometimes) see the need for 2 Medistats, 2 Armories is just a no.
If the only way you can avoid massive pwnage every 45 seconds on ATCS is by building a blocking Armory, you should review your basebuilding techniques.
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i don't mind a blocking arm on atcs as long as your team has a dedicated builder and a few defenders. you can have less defenders if you have the blocking arm on atcs. on every other map, 1 arm should be the only choice though. this is for a default bp server btw.
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The ONLY map where a blocking arm is good is on ATCS, placed on the ramp near H base. And even with that, it has to be the sdmode where you can rebuild arms. It prevetns tyrant from camping around the corner, which is probably the most important thing there.
actually it's pretty useless on atcs, since most base layouts that are resistant to tyrants leave the reactor exposed to snipers (2 +goons can put the 8 1/2 barbs into the reactor just as the first of the 2 die). you need either much more space (nexus, where moving close enough for a clear shot is suicide) or much less space (tremor, where there is no clear shot) to abuse it, and either way choke points are required. it really is lame though, since in many circumstances it can extend the game indefinitely (especially if solilo is holding the ckit).
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blocking arm is blocking the way of shooting... plus on atcs falling down and not going at the ramp can give you funny surprises by lurking cheap aliens.
at ffa games they are destroyed by teammates sooner than aliens could realise that it exists.
not to mention the debate (that can fruit typekills) and 'noobbuilder' spammings.
-1.
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Two armories can save the game, especially on tight maps. On transit, two armories may be overkill, but on small maps... a pulse rifle can save the game for the humans, and so can battlesuits.
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Please don't necro threads like that. Check the late post date.
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It takes too much Bp...
Tough it's a bit usefull in some case, but Bad idea for most
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This thread should not be dead. Quite simply, it is quite important. It is a strategy I personally could see as a good end-game strategy.
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2 Armories is not only retarded, it's contraproductive, since it takes 10bp you need elsewhere. There is absolutely no excuse for building 2 Armories at any given time.
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But what about a maze of armories on unlimited build point servers?
Oh yeah, that's not a real game of Tremulous...
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2 Armories is not only retarded, it's contraproductive, since it takes 10bp you need elsewhere. There is absolutely no excuse for building 2 Armories at any given time.
The only exception is if you're planning on moving the arm. It's usually better to be down a ret then to be without an arm.
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Build Before deconning...
Its very awfull when someone decon Arm then take time to rebuild it perfectly frame by frame when you got no ammo and a base to protect.
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2 Armories is not only retarded, it's contraproductive, since it takes 10bp you need elsewhere. There is absolutely no excuse for building 2 Armories at any given time.
The only exception is if you're planning on moving the arm. It's usually better to be down a ret then to be without an arm.
For me, that doesn't constitue building 2 Armories, that's just moving the Armory. But yes, technically speaking you are correct.
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On ATCS when someone build a second armory to stop rant, Yes it stop them a while, but when they'll get in, u got less defense than usual so... It Fails...
:tyrant: :armoury: :tyrant:
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I've had some sucess building up to 2 extra armouries, in ATCS with skilled people.
The whole reason they work, is that they have a backward psychiology on the aliens. ("Wtf, 3 armouries, how retarded, no use in taking them down)
The thing they forget is that the armouries is severely hindering their movement possibilities around in the human room, blocking the line of sight into the guts of the base, and making a staged defense that still has almost all the turrets covering all the 'stages'. (my base core, with reactor and nodes, always has 3 turrets covering it, as well as a lot of turrets spread out in the room to extend human dominion over the room, which makes it harder for the aliens to camp for kills just around the corner.)
While this is not really any better defense wise than the good 'ol defense corner sandwitch in ATCS, it is BY FAR better for the human freedom of movement, range of dominion... Actually controlling the whole base room helps a lot in pushing out.
Also, rants tend to kill the armoury, and then run away or die, most of the defense remains intact, and i can rebuild when they run away /die, or cramp into the corner if things get hairy, slowly retracting my defense into the corner while still safe between my semi-blocking armoury.
Of course, this demands a lot from the builder, as the whole base strenght lies in that you have the time to adapt the base even during an attack, but I like it.
It also is better in terms of teambleeding/blocking and general retardedness.
But it is far less self sufficient than the usual base.
I just get so freaking tired of the same base every damn game, and camping the turrets with your rifle because if you try to leave the turret wall, you are instantly mauled by the tyrant around the corner.
As for SD, Arms can be rebuildt during SD, turrets can not, which may help you reinforce your defenses after having pushed back that tyrant rush, even during SD.
I'm not saying this is the best, or even any good at all. But in my experience, it is by far a viable variation from the same, bland base that is always built.
Btw, I build on 100BP servers, and have been building standard bases for a long time also.
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The same bland base that is always built is always that same bland base because it works. 2 Armories does not work, and only makes it easier for said skilled players to ruin your base, since Armories dish out no damage, take up a lot of space, and provide a nice explosion when destroyed too. They are easy targets. Do not fall for this nonsense and just stick to 1 Armory.
Also, if you really feel like you want to break to monotomy of building proper bases, you can always decon the Reactor at the start of the game and move it to the entry of the Alien base. This is a sure way to have some really good fun 8)
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Meh, just a little experiment I've been running, since I had heard about arm walls and wondered how they worked.
So far, my ecperiences have been mixed, but the base I was talking about has proved better at some points, like pushing out and retaliating at the alien base.
The standard base is easy to build, and is tried and true. That does not mean new inventions can not work just because it has not been tried.
Then again, I'm not saying this is actually new or better at all. I just want to keep trying new things.
Edit: Lol, I prefer breaking the monotony by not making it into a pitched live-or die battle, as that tends to make some people REALLY angry. (although I love just those battles.)
Edit2: And Lava, I did not say 2 armouries, I said 3. Yes, 3.
Edit3: Btw, I know you have been building for FAR longeer time than me, I just don't want to lose the experimenting attitude, as change, and making something new is what really makes me have a good time. I try to do this without ruining it too much for the other players in my team, as a result, this base has been slowly transforming from the standard base, and will keep on doing so until it causes us to lose. At which time I will stop to reconsider, change the direction of thought, going back in the development process and so on.
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3 Armories with 100bp means 20 wasted bp. Instant lose.
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With 3 armories, the goons will probably snipe the medi and laugh.
Also, SD is horribly broken.
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Sudden Death is not just broken, it also breaks the gameflow itself. It makes Aliens hold back until SD starts, relieving them of all motivation to do anything at all before that time, besides camp the entries to the Human base, which in turn makes the Humans camp, which in turn makes the Aliens whine about campers.
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With 3 armories, the goons will probably snipe the medi and laugh.
Also, SD is horribly broken.
Nothe that when building this base, there is no point in sniping the medi, because the goon would have to be so close it could just chomp it anyways.
3 Armories with 100bp means 20 wasted bp. Instant lose.
Not literally. :p I have seen no real difference in wins/losses when building bases 'untraditionally'. Of course, my judgement is broken. But we do win, even if the teams are balanced. (sometimes, like usual.)
Yeah, SD is broken. I prefer to die before SD, rather than have that absolutely horrible camp because you cannot afford to lose any turrets..
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Saying that you have seen games where building 3 Armories did not lead to failure is saying you know of people who got shot in the head, but did not die.
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You run out of arguments (or atleast, stop making them), you start to make broken, not-really-bringing-the-discussion-anywhere-but-flaming, ANNOYING piece of shit metaphors or that-guy-can't-be-taken-seriously jokes that are not aimed at anything else than ridiculing other people.
What the fuck was the connection between you previous statement and the discussion, other than you stating that I am wrong and you are right without giving any more arguments that hold water?
I am saying that I have myself built in SEVERAL games where building 3 armouries did, in fact not lead to our team losing. I am also saying that the base i build here apparently does not severely bring our chances of winning down, but of this, I am not sure, and it's bound to be a bit lossy since I can still perfect the idea a lot further.
I'm not saying this base is better, or any good at all- but the way you go on about it makes you sound like a pompous, arrogant, stuck up ass.
I probably shouldn't be so upset by Lava's asshattery, as it was kinda minor anyway. But damnit, I can't help it.
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Building 3 Armories is utterly retarded, and suggesting it to people is directly linked to people who ruin my games by following your fucked up advice. Stop poisoning people's minds with nonsense like this. Starting to insult me will not help you at all, it will just make you look even more out of touch with reality.
Just to explain what I said: While 3 Armories might work, 9 out of 10 times, it does not. While shooting yourself in the head might not be lethal, 9 out of 10 times, it is. I'm sorry that you could not understand it, next time I will try to use Sesame Street pictures to explain what I am trying to say.
PS: Look at the poll.
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3 armouries are asking for tyrants, heck, even dretches, to smash your base. The best idea is to simply build two and make sure you can crossfire. This creates false choices (or whatever the term is) by presenting two targets, hopefully distracting the aliens long enough to kill them. This works with any structure placed semetrically to another with no major apparent disadvantages.. Besides reactors and overminds.
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Building 2 Armories is a stupid idea either. Permanently.
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Kinda matters what stage the enemy is at. If there at s3 and snipe your arm, your screwed lol.
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Kinda matters what stage the enemy is at. If there at s3 and snipe your arm, your screwed lol.
If they snipe your Armory at S3, your base is flawed and your teammates fail at defending.
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You actually manage to give me rabies-like symptoms of frothing from the corners of my mouth.
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You actually manage to give me rabies-like symptoms of frothing from the corners of my mouth.
I suggest you turn off your computer and stay off the internet then.
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Or just calm down and stop this trench war? :p
Anyway, you certainly heard both my and Lava's opinions good loud enough.
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Or just calm down and stop this trench war? :p
Anyway, you certainly heard both my and Lava's opinions good loud enough.
I certainly took notice of your barrage of personal insults!
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YAWN.
Bajsefar, your argument would be more credible with screenshots. At the moment it sounds to me just another proof of the old "teams win games, not bases" maxim. I remember someone building a base using only barricades, and it worked amazingly - but, I later realised, only because our team held such a consistent offence and those rare few humans that did get through the offensive line got cut down before they could do any damage to anything.
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Would have posted a demo, if my demo function would work- because this would also show how the base worked, in what order i put up things... In what way they worked, if it was like you said, because of the team we have been winning sometimes.
I have tried recording demos, they do not show up in my tremulous folder where they should. I have tried searching my hard drive for them, but they are not there.
Halp plox.You run out of arguments (or atleast, stop making them), you start to make broken, not-really-bringing-the-discussion-anywhere-but-flaming, ANNOYING piece of shit metaphors or that-guy-can't-be-taken-seriously jokes that are not aimed at anything else than ridiculing other people.
What the fuck was the connection between you previous statement and the discussion, other than you stating that I am wrong and you are right without giving any more arguments that hold water?
I am saying that I have myself built in SEVERAL games where building 3 armouries did, in fact not lead to our team losing. I am also saying that the base i build here apparently does not severely bring our chances of winning down, but of this, I am not sure, and it's bound to be a bit lossy since I can still perfect the idea a lot further.
I'm not saying this base is better, or any good at all- but the way you go on about it makes you sound like a pompous, arrogant, stuck up ass.
I probably shouldn't be so upset by Lava's asshattery, as it was kinda minor anyway. But damnit, I can't help it.
<Apology>
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Yea, lets build an arm right in the way so it blocks rants and retreating humans, as well as wasting bp.
2nd arms are good, when used properly.
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benmachine is spot on. A lot of people think the bases they build are good, because they last. However, they usually do not take into account the performance of their teammates. Just like it's very easy to have a completely retarded base and win the game with ease, it's also very easy to build the best base in the world and lose hard, just because the opposing team is a lot better.
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Lava take an example from tremulous:
What happens to the guy who buys a flamer? he toasts himself unless he is good.
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Not necessarily. I killed a rant with just a shotgun. Five shots. An armory is the strongest tool in the human arsenal. It may seem like it detracts from available BP, but it allows humans to fit out quicker/easier and also later in the game. Trust me, nothing sucks like knowing of a rant rush and not being able to buy a luci because there are too many feeders in the way with their "AWESOME 70 CR!!!!" and losing the base because of it.
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Lava take an example from tremulous:
What happens to the guy who buys a flamer? he toasts himself unless he is good.
You don't have to be good at Tremulous to not toast yourself with the flamer. I think your definition of good needs a little bit of work.
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Back on the point, the game is a team/psychology game. If two arms make your team bolder and brash, don't. If they provide an feeling of security and power, yes. Also, if it forces the other team to hesitate, do it. I DON'T CARE IF YOU BLOW YOURSELF UP! It will still slow down the aliens! I DON'T CARE IF YOU HIDE ON THE ROOF! It will freak out the humans! The goal is to win. The only strategy that is wrong is feeding. Even camping is justified at times (and jet spammers distract the aliens. Trust me).
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(and jet spammers distract the aliens. Trust me).
This should be obvious to anyone with the foggiest notion of trem but when ever it happens the aliens complain (for good reason: they cant put as much pressure on humans) and the humans complain even more (partially for good reason: they don't have as many campers/defenders
You don't have to be good at Tremulous to not toast yourself with the flamer. I think your definition of good needs a little bit of work.
It took me several minutes to figure out your screwy grammar, but in what way does someone not have to be good to not toast themselves? It is almost this:
Bad with flamer barbecues himself fairly quick
Good with flamer barbecues himself in the alien base surrounded by a thousand dretches and killing the eggs at the same time.
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It's going a little bit Off-Topic... Isn't?
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If every single new topic had its own new thread, you'd see "new" down the whole page every day, all new topics or old ones that were kept on topic.
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(and jet spammers distract the aliens. Trust me).
This should be obvious to anyone with the foggiest notion of trem but when ever it happens the aliens complain (for good reason: they cant put as much pressure on humans) and the humans complain even more (partially for good reason: they don't have as many campers/defenders
You don't have to be good at Tremulous to not toast yourself with the flamer. I think your definition of good needs a little bit of work.
It took me several minutes to figure out your screwy grammar, but in what way does someone not have to be good to not toast themselves? It is almost this:
Bad with flamer barbecues himself fairly quick
Good with flamer barbecues himself in the alien base surrounded by a thousand dretches and killing the eggs at the same time.
No, Jetspammers usually camp/defend, and sometime accidentally (Aliens too busy to hit ground targets)
Also, a good flamer can toast the alien base and *NOT* himself. But it takes work, patience, and timing. So I use shotguns!
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In big map, like in karith, a jetpack can kill every default egg and om without beeing hurt by tubes with an MD or Lasgun.
Jetpack is not only for Camper/Defender, it can help to go in place you normaly cant, or go faster to other place.
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In big map, like in karith, a jetpack can kill every default egg and om without beeing hurt by tubes with an MD or Lasgun.
Jetpack is not only for Camper/Defender, it can help to go in place you normaly cant, or go faster to other place.
If a jetpack gets the chance to enter Karith default base, fly up to the not so high ceiling, and kill the OM and Eggs without being killed, the Aliens are just completely clueless.
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It took me several minutes to figure out your screwy grammar
The moment you write your posts in Dutch is the moment you are allowed to comment on my grammar.
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It took me several minutes to figure out your screwy grammar
The moment you write your posts in Dutch is the moment you are allowed to comment on my grammar.
The moment you edit your posts by pressing the "modify' button instead of double posting is the moment you are allowed to comment on his Dutch knowledge.
Oops sorry, mods can double post .. my bad
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While traversing deep into the forest of your own flaws, you managed to find one that belongs to me.
Congratulations.
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Whateva baldy
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In big map, like in karith, a jetpack can kill every default egg and om without beeing hurt by tubes with an MD or Lasgun.
Jetpack is not only for Camper/Defender, it can help to go in place you normaly cant, or go faster to other place.
If a jetpack gets the chance to enter Karith default base, fly up to the not so high ceiling, and kill the OM and Eggs without being killed, the Aliens are just completely clueless.
Well, u can kill them all easily from a distance without coming into the train you know? (maybe one egg will last, i will try this)
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But, basically, none of this would be possible without an arm. With two, it's a bit easier. I hate waiting for the arm. The medi? Bad. Arm? AWFUL!!! I've died trying to get a shotgun with four people on my team, for crying out loud. Either speed up, of build up.
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In big map, like in karith, a jetpack can kill every default egg and om without beeing hurt by tubes with an MD or Lasgun.
Jetpack is not only for Camper/Defender, it can help to go in place you normaly cant, or go faster to other place.
If a jetpack gets the chance to enter Karith default base, fly up to the not so high ceiling, and kill the OM and Eggs without being killed, the Aliens are just completely clueless.
Well, u can kill them all easily from a distance without coming into the train you know? (maybe one egg will last, i will try this)
Karith has a train?
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Mmh, i am wrong in this map name, i'm talking about the Train station map and i totaly got wrong with the name...
Omg i forgot it... i will feel stupid when i'll remember it
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Mmh, i am wrong in this map name, i'm talking about the Train station map and i totaly got wrong with the name...
Omg i forgot it... i will feel stupid when i'll remember it
Transit, now I order you to feel stupid!
;D ;D
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Let's get back on topic. While I usually adamantly recommend two armories, there are some instances where they simply clutter the way. However, a skilled builder can overcome this.
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Omg, Transit... Shame on me!
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I say we throw Lava and Nitrox in a pit and let them fight it out until one of them either:
A. Dies
B. Loses the ability to type
Then we only have to deal them arguing all the time.
Lava would probably win, I've seen player portraits of both.
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Lava would probably win, I've seen player portraits of both.
Then throw me in to even it up, I declared war on Lava some time ago.
EDIT: one better: make a thread and sticky it for us and we can argue in there, on one would have to watch if they didn't want to.