Tremulous Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ender on February 13, 2008, 02:57:36 pm
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Well, I've been coding a lot lately for Tremulous. You can check out my progress at http://stfu-ender.tiddlyspot.com/ where I show some of the modifications I'm making. They're mostly server-side, for now. Tremulous 1.1.0 has been out for almost 2 years now. Think about all of the changes that have been made. The stock client doesn't have GUID support or web redirect downloads. The server side has so many modifications there is a massive patch tracker to track everything that you can add on to it. This sort of thing should stop. It just shows that plenty of coding work has been done, but that the development team isn't keeping up.
As such, I want to release Tremulous 1.2. In discussing this with some people I respect at my blog at http://dretchstorm.com/blog/479 it's been mentioned to me that I should really discuss this with the currently development team. I would really like to avoid fracturing the Tremulous community or starting a war or what have you. But, I've searched the Tremulous site and I can't seem to find a mailing list for the developers or any sort of contact information. As far as I can tell, official development is winding down on Tremulous, which is disappointing. The community deserves to have Tremulous 1.2 released.
The reason I've come here to post is twofold. First, I'd like to find out what the general opinion of the tremulous community is. I'm not proposing that 1.2 be fraught with game changes - I don't want to create a Trem X. What I want to create is a point release that adds in what the vast majority of experienced players have already added: backport client functionality and updated server features. I want to get us out of the backport mire.
Second, I had originally intended to release 1.2 by myself, since I didn't think it was likely I could get a hold of any developers. After thinking about it some more, I realized that I had a responsibility to the original developers to try. You put a lot of work into this code, work you didn't get anything for, and I respect that. I would love to work with you on this to get it done in an efficient, timely, and intelligent way. That said, if you don't want to work with me, I'll release 1.2 by myself. The code is GPL'd, the graphics are CC'd, I can create a derivative work.
So, community, if you're interested I will be posting development information at my Tiddlywiki above. Please reply to this post with any comments, positive or negative. As it's been said, Tremulous 1.2 is imminent.
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contact the developers very fast while you can still help them so you don't have to do things what are already done :-)
[EDIT]: Private Message here is an option. Sometimes i see Timbo logged in.
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I agree with Optimus, you should try getting in the trem dev team. Judging from what you've done (I'm no expert), you seem to have the skills to do so.
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contact the developers very fast while you can still help them so you don't have to do things what are already done :-)
[EDIT]: Private Message here is an option. Sometimes i see Timbo logged in.
What do you mean by 'while you can still help them'? Is something going on that I don't know about...like an actual 1.2 release?
I wouldn't mind getting on the Tremulous dev team, it would make things easier. The big question is 'why hasn't there been a release in 2 years?' There's been plenty of development. I'm concerned that there isn't a good reason, that development has just sort of died. I know that SVN updates are being made at the rate of about 1 every 2-3 days, which is pretty good, but the Tremulous.net website is extremely quiet for such an active community.
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Try talking to them on IRC. They are usually there so you might be in luck.
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Sometimes a fork helps people to actually wake up ]:-) :angel:
Thank you for your initiative.
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The big question is 'why hasn't there been a release in 2 years?'
because it's not done yet, i'm not sure if norf is happy with balance yet, there are new models to be added, maps have to be recompiled (trivial but you can't do this), new maps that you don't have access to at all, new huds, etc. if it was as simple as committing the mgdev changesets to svn and wrapping it up it would have been done already.
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Hey Ender, did the thought ever occur to you that Tremulous 1.2 might just not be finished yet? And don't you think that releasing a next version of an application on which it's creators are still working is a tad devoid of any respect?
PS: You do know there already is an Ender in the Quake community, right?
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(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj154/invincibleatomeve/zoidberg-why.gif)
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1 - You are not the *real* ender
2 - Judging from this post, and your post on other forums, this is not Tremulous 1.2, this would be a Fork
2.a. - Go fork yourself
3 - The real 1.2 is under active development, you are just to stupid/young/insolent to see that
4 - 2 years is not that long, I believe the 1.1 release took around 6.
5 - You obviously don't know or don't care to know the implications of what you're are purporting to do. I hope you are rich!
That said, Good luck!
Khalsa
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The big question is 'why hasn't there been a release in 2 years?'
because it's not done yet, i'm not sure if norf is happy with balance yet, there are new models to be added, maps have to be recompiled (trivial but you can't do this), new maps that you don't have access to at all, new huds, etc. if it was as simple as committing the mgdev changesets to svn and wrapping it up it would have been done already.
It sounds to me like there is work going on. That's wonderful. I kind of figured there was. But, there is very little transparency as to what work is going on, and that sort of thing causes a hemorrhage in the community. We need to know what is happening and what needs to be done before a release is made. It gives people hope. Telling us "it'll be ready when we say it is" is only a tad less insulting than saying "yeah, well, I'm going to make my own changes and release it myself".
As for all of the new models, either add them and be done with it or continue working on them and exclude them from the next release until they are ready. Release early, release often.
Why would the maps need to be recompiled? I haven't suggested a change to the mapping format.
And yes, it IS as easy as committing the changes to the SVN and wrapping it all up. That's what an SVN is for. You make changes, you commit them, you decide one is stable enough to release and you tag it as a release. You then build it on all of the applicable platforms and release. Viola.
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I don't think you are in the position to tell anyone what they should do. Good luck with your forking of Tremulous, but do not call it Tremulous 1.2.
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Hey Ender, did the thought ever occur to you that Tremulous 1.2 might just not be finished yet? And don't you think that releasing a next version of an application on which it's creators are still working is a tad devoid of any respect?
PS: You do know there already is an Ender in the Quake community, right?
Of course it occurred to me that 1.2 might not be finished yet. It hasn't been finished yet for 2 years. It's a 0.1 version change, one would think that it could have been done over a year ago, when the backport was first introduced.
And yes, I do think that what I'm proposing is a tad devoid of respect. But then, that's why I came to the forum in an effort to contact the devs and see what they have to say on the matter. I wanted to show them some respect. They deserve respect. They've put a lot of work into this. I said as much in my original post. The lack of respect comes in the massive deluge of posts and questions about Tremulous 1.2 and the dev's corresponding lack of information about where it is at. That sort of behavior is understandable, they aren't getting paid by any of us, but no, it doesn't warrant respect.
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Release early, release often.
Yes, because that model works so well for EA...
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1 - You are not the *real* ender
2 - Judging from this post, and your post on other forums, this is not Tremulous 1.2, this would be a Fork
2.a. - Go fork yourself
3 - The real 1.2 is under active development, you are just to stupid/young/insolent to see that
4 - 2 years is not that long, I believe the 1.1 release took around 6.
5 - You obviously don't know or don't care to know the implications of what you're are purporting to do. I hope you are rich!
That said, Good luck!
Khalsa
1 - The *real* Ender is a character from a book. A fictional book.
2 - You may call it what you wish. As may I.
3 - I can see that it is under development, thank you. Let me know when it will be released. Or the criteria for release. Or the planned feature set. Or what work is currently being done on it. Or even a list of people who are working on it right now.
4 - 2 years isn't that long, you're right. And 111 source code patches in a patch tracker aren't very many. And 200 source code revisions since the last release isn't that many. It's only 1/4 of the revisions that were made since the SVN were started. And 15 news posts since the standalone client was release is plenty to keep a community going over such a short time.
5 - I don't know the implications of what I'm purporting to do. Enlighten me. That's what this post is about.
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On further review, I absolutely support you wasting your time on this idea 120%. God speed, Ender!
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Come to IRC so we can properly explain why this is a stupid thing to do.
Also, your not making any friends by spurning the normal rules of social interaction that govern such things.
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That said, if you don't want to work with me, I'll release 1.2 by myself. The code is GPL'd, the graphics are CC'd, I can create a derivative work.
Well, if that isn't a big FUCK YOU to the people who are working on tremulous as we speak, I don't know what is.
Perhaps if you investigated things in the tremulous community instead of your blog, you would find developers. Lets see, before today, your last post was in May of 2007. Don't recall ever seeing you on IRC. I don't see an ender in bugzilla or the MG patch tracker. It seems that you have done very little to aid tremulous development. Really nice that you can take it all over though. >:(
Incidently, the problem isn't a lack or transparency. I've known %95 of this stuff just by paying attention. No, the problem is that noone who bitches about how information needs to be collated is willing to do just that. Welcome to a poor open source project. You wanna make a fork? Get ready to do all of that and a million other things.
In cause you are wondering about the caustic nature of these responses, the way to find this information is not by announcing a fork and telling all the present devs to go fuck themselves.
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Release early, release often.
Yes, because that model works so well for EA...
...and Linus Torvalds, whose software is universally panned and ridiculed for being such an utter failure.
http://www.firstmonday.org/ISSUES/issue3_3/raymond/index.html
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Release early, release often.
Yes, because that model works so well for EA...
...and Linus Torvalds, whose software is universally panned and ridiculed for being such an utter failure.
http://www.firstmonday.org/ISSUES/issue3_3/raymond/index.html
Bahahahahaha
Sorry.. ESR != "Universal" by any stretch of the imagination.
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Release early, release often.
Yes, because that model works so well for EA...
...and Linus Torvalds, whose software is universally panned and ridiculed for being such an utter failure.
http://www.firstmonday.org/ISSUES/issue3_3/raymond/index.html
I think you just dismissed yourself.
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That said, if you don't want to work with me, I'll release 1.2 by myself. The code is GPL'd, the graphics are CC'd, I can create a derivative work.
Well, if that isn't a big FUCK YOU to the people who are working on tremulous as we speak, I don't know what is.
Perhaps if you investigated things in the tremulous community instead of your blog, you would find developers. Lets see, before today, your last post was in May of 2007. Don't recall ever seeing you on IRC. I don't see an ender in bugzilla or the MG patch tracker. It seems that you have done very little to aid tremulous development. Really nice that you can take it all over though. >:(
Incidently, the problem isn't a lack or transparency. I've known %95 of this stuff just by paying attention. No, the problem is that noone who bitches about how information needs to be collated is willing to do just that. Welcome to a poor open source project. You wanna make a fork? Get ready to do all of that and a million other things.
In cause you are wondering about the caustic nature of these responses, the way to find this information is not by announcing a fork and telling all the present devs to go fuck themselves.
Thanks tuple, you have a good point. You're right, I haven't posted much here, I haven't been to the IRC. And I should have been much gentler about how I posted here. I didn't intend to send a 'Fuck you' to all the devs, or the community as a whole. I was under the impression that the forums here had degenerated to the point where most posts were infantile and the forums weren't worth reading. I wasn't sure how my original post would be received, but after seeing how vehemently most people here are defending the devs, it tells me that I really missed something. I just didn't know where to look. Thanks for enlightening me.
I'll get on the IRC when I have time and talk this over with some people. I'm perfectly willing to be the one who collates the information about development. While I may (obviously) lack tact, I like to think I'm a pretty good communicator. In the end, I'd really just like to help the community. I had no idea that the community was as strong as it evidently is. I was hoping with this post to rally people around a new release since I had thought that the devs had more or less left the project. I had only intended to take over development if it was evident that no one else is controlling development. Looks like I was wrong about that.
To the devs: Sorry about the 'fuck you'-style post. I want to help. Honestly. If you're out there, I'd like to work with you. My original issue was that I was concerned there weren't any devs, or that they were adamantly neglecting the community.
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I don't think anyone wants to work with you after this showcase of stupidity. You might be better off creating your own fork of Tremulous.
[EDIT] typo-day-today
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I made you this T-Shirt!
(http://img.printfection.com/1/111/1471159/4D54X.jpg)
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Fair warning, you'll probably catch all sorts of hell in IRC if these posts are any indication :angel:
Persistence does pay off though :)
Incidently, the forums can be very infantile and not worth reading but irc is only infantile :p
Ok ok, its often not worth reading as well, but I promise to cut down on my blathering! :>
I'LL NEVAR CUT DOWN ON TEH SMILEYS THOUGH!! :-X
irc.freenode.net
Main channel is #tremulous
The dev channel is #tremulous-dev
A bunch of the source surfers hang out in #mercenariesguild
There are probably lots of other channels where you can find useful info. :)
There is a lot of the tremulous community that isn't readily apparent. You may even find some funnies (http://qdb.mercenariesguild.net/41)
:)
edit: crap, I put freenet.net instead of freenode
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Lol, Odin, nice. I'm impressed, I didn't realize a bunch of MG guys hung out around here. Cool. You guys all deserve a ton of respect, your Patch Tracker is awesome, and your website is pretty good to boot.
Fair warning, you'll probably catch all sorts of hell in IRC if these posts are any indication :angel:
Persistence does pay off though :)
Incidently, the forums can be very infantile and not worth reading but irc is only infantile :p
Ok ok, its often not worth reading as well, but I promise to cut down on my blathering! :>
I'LL NEVAR CUT DOWN ON TEH SMILEYS THOUGH!! :-X
irc.freenet.net
Main channel is #tremulous
The dev channel is #tremulous-dev
A bunch of the source surfers hang out in #mercenariesguild
There are probably lots of other channels where you can find useful info. :)
There is a lot of the tremulous community that isn't readily apparent. You may even find some funnies (http://qdb.mercenariesguild.net/41) :)
Thanks tuple - so far my exposure to the Tremulous community has been primarily in Dretch*Storm, which I've loved. Reading some of the posts at this forum made it look like it was mostly new players who are looking for a good community but may or may not have a lot of savvy, and old players who are cranky and like to create flamewars. I should emphasize some because after I read just a few of the recent topics, I didn't really want to take the time to read more. And I read the rant at http://www.mercenariesguild.net/component/option,com_myblog/Itemid,18/lang,en/ by khalsa, which didn't fill me with much hope. It's a very pleasant surprise to see that I should have given this forum much more of a chance - there's a lot of good people here.
I'll try to hang out in the IRC more so I can talk to some more people. I had geared myself up for a hostile code takeover, thinking that the only reason MG hadn't done it was because they're polite. Looks like that was the wrong attitude. Time to do some more research on what is really going on out there...
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Pfft. We'll just one-up you and release 1.3! HA! Take that!
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tuple: chat.freenode.net :>
Ender: it's pretty clear from this thread, and everything I've heard, that you haven't got the support of the community. As a result, I think calling your release Tremulous 1.2, especially given how much people have been waiting for the official release, will only cause you and us problems. That's my opinion.
If you want to help out with MG development, come to our forum (http://www.mercenariesguild.net/forum). If you want to help in other ways, fix some bugs (http://bugzilla.icculus.org/buglist.cgi?product=Tremulous&bug_status=REOPENED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED).
If you want to create your own fork or mod, I've no objection to that. But don't make it try to appear 'official', because that's just deceptive.
I feel the need to mention, as well, that I think you've responded pretty well to us, and I applaud the attitude of your words.
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Stannum: LOL! Fine, I'll release version infinity. Squared.
tuple: chat.freenode.net :>
Ender: it's pretty clear from this thread, and everything I've heard, that you haven't got the support of the community. As a result, I think calling your release Tremulous 1.2, especially given how much people have been waiting for the official release, will only cause you and us problems. That's my opinion.
If you want to help out with MG development, come to our forum (http://www.mercenariesguild.net/forum). If you want to help in other ways, fix some bugs (http://bugzilla.icculus.org/buglist.cgi?product=Tremulous&bug_status=REOPENED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED).
If you want to create your own fork or mod, I've no objection to that. But don't make it try to appear 'official', because that's just deceptive.
I feel the need to mention, as well, that I think you've responded pretty well to us, and I applaud the attitude of your words.
Thanks, honestly I didn't want to come off as an ass, which apparently I did. Oh well, live and learn. Then get Luvs. So I hear.
You're right about the community support. I'll make a concerted effort to go legit - we'll hope that contrary to what Lava Croft has said, they'll be forgiving :). I'll look into the bug fixing, and the MG forum, thanks.
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Yes, I would also like to applaud Ender for taking on all the replies with such grace. I know I wouldn't have...
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Please stop sending "go fork your self" jokes. Especially I wouldn't expect to see this kind of unhelpful stuff coming from MG people..
I know why you are angry and I appreciate all effort, but please just calm down and try not to lose a possible, good developer.
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I had geared myself up for a hostile code takeover, thinking that the only reason MG hadn't done it was because they're polite. Looks like that was the wrong attitude. Time to do some more research on what is really going on out there...
Can I suggest starting with the front page of Tremulous.net (the post at the top, made by Timbo just two weeks ago)?
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I'll forgive your horrendous oversight of basic methods of information gathering (especially when taking on a project so big as, for instance, the entire development of a PC game) due to the way you handled yourself against the replies. Nice to see that you aren't an idiotic dickhead, but just presumptuous.
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I had geared myself up for a hostile code takeover, thinking that the only reason MG hadn't done it was because they're polite. Looks like that was the wrong attitude. Time to do some more research on what is really going on out there...
Can I suggest starting with the front page of Tremulous.net (the post at the top, made by Timbo just two weeks ago)?
You've got a good point there. I had discounted Timbo's post for two reasons. One, I haven't seen much that is publicly visible that Timbo has done. I have seen what MG has done, and (wrongly) assumed that Timbo was mostly trying to play off of MG's work and make it look like he hadn't been asleep for a year. I should have realized that this was, in fact, Timbo showing that he's been working with MG, and therefore MG's publicly visible work is a reflection of Timbo's invisible work.
The second reason I had discounted Timbo's post was the comment at the bottom of http://www.mercenariesguild.net/patches/?do=details&task_id=2 made by vcxzet, who again has a lot of credulity in my mind because of his phenomenal work with the backport and other great Tremulous modifications. If he thinks development is going nowhere with Timbo, and he's been doing this for longer than I have, and Timbo is the only developer mentioned in the Tremulous credits, than it seems logical to me that Timbo did all the coding himself, then dropped the ball, and now other developers that want to carry the torch are left without a legitimate way to do so.
It appears then that Timbo is actually working with MG to do bugfixes and balance testing, and that others are working on other improvements...?
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vcxzet/f0rqu3 gets no respect from his community at all, actually, he is banned from it.
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I'll forgive your horrendous oversight of basic methods of information gathering (especially when taking on a project so big as, for instance, the entire development of a PC game) due to the way you handled yourself against the replies. Nice to see that you aren't an idiotic dickhead, but just presumptuous.
Thanks :). I was actually avoiding the basic information gathering, as I tend to fall asleep when I have to read a lot. It's so much easier to just jump into a forum, say something atrocious, presumtuous and controversial, then field self-deprecating replies until you find out who the really important people/places are. Granted, you look like an idiotic dickhead, but it saves you the hours of half-conscious reading and the keyboard button indentations on the forehead :angel:
Seriously though, I've learned a lot from this experience. I honestly thought this post would anger a few people, not interest most, but make a few people happy that someone wanted to start up development in earnest. I had no idea I was going to be sticking my finger in the eye of some generous and hard-working people. Sorry folks!
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vcxzet/f0rqu3 gets no respect from his community at all, actually, he is banned from it.
What for?
Seems awfully ironic that I pegged him as a respected, contributing member of the community - when I first started playing Tremulous I was quickly made an admin on S11.info... after a bit of googling I never went back there.
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Please cut Ender some slack. He really is a good, competent guy, and he's just trying to contribute. While his approach could have been more tactful, the Tremulous community can only lose by publicly lynching anyone who shows some initiative and willingness to help, however misguided.
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Aww, we haven't had a good public lynching in a while!
Guess I'll have to watch a movie now that I've made popcorn :laugh:
Man, I was gonna pull out one of his fingernails :kicks:
:P
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I should have realized that this was, in fact, Timbo showing that he's been working with MG, and therefore MG's publicly visible work is a reflection of Timbo's invisible work.
...
It appears then that Timbo is actually working with MG to do bugfixes and balance testing, and that others are working on other improvements...?
If you actually read the post it explains the situation rather unambiguously.
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I should have realized that this was, in fact, Timbo showing that he's been working with MG, and therefore MG's publicly visible work is a reflection of Timbo's invisible work.
...
It appears then that Timbo is actually working with MG to do bugfixes and balance testing, and that others are working on other improvements...?
If you actually read the post it explains the situation rather unambiguously.
Yes, you're right, it is clear....unless you read it with a jaded eye that thinks Timbo hasn't done anything useful in a year. Which was how I originally read it. If you read it as a clear-thinking, normal person, you see that he's obviously just talking about what's been going on in development. :-[
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LOL someone mentions tangible progress and people get angry
This is your last warning, stop leeching our bandwidth -Lava
i miss vcxzet because he believed in progress :(
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I miss vcxzet because we needed an asshole on the forums.
Noobs just aren't the same.
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At the end of the day though there's a lesson to be learned here for all I think. There is no documentation anywhere that clearly shows what is required for the development team to release 1.2. In effect there is nothing to aim towards, no "goal posts". This in turn leads people, like Ender who are honestly trying to help, to believe that there is nothing being done by the development team. In addition to this, when there's no goal posts development can get to a point where it's never finished.
It's unfortunate that the same people who have been known to say "If you don't like it, why not fork it yourself" have turned around and flamed someone quite effectively when he was suggesting that he was about to do exactly that. I personally do not believe that a fork is the way to go, because I know that development is happening and am content to wait till it's finished. However I applaud Ender for his efforts, and give the thumbs down to all those who didn't take the time to look at his efforts in the light in which it was intended.
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I think that the fact that this is the Tremulous community forums must be pointed out again. Make a suggestion and someone will flame you... This guy just happened to have a bad day.
Seriously guys, I think that you all should take the flaming a little easier from now on.
Also, I'm probably gonna get flamed for this.
Hell, I'm defiantly gonna get flamed for posting the above line. :-\
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good to see that at least someone is using the bot framework :)
if i can be of any help with documentation or aas files for other maps than atcs, let me know. iirc, the version of the patch i posted on the MG tracker is not the latest and greatest.
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@FisherP: Ender was not suggestion to fork Tremulous, he was suggesting to release 1.2. Also, it's not hard at all to find out what kind of dev has been going on with Tremulous lately, all it takes is to come to IRC and ask. Or send someone a forum PM. Ender just made a post full of accusations without even doing the most tiny bit of research. That is why people flame him, not because of his desire to fork Tremulous.
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good to see that at least someone is using the bot framework :)
if i can be of any help with documentation or aas files for other maps than atcs, let me know. iirc, the version of the patch i posted on the MG tracker is not the latest and greatest.
Wow, thanks cyrri - that would be awesome. Your bot patch was excellent to start with, but if there's more, I'd love to have it. The AAS files are my current problem, I'm starting to do research into how you created the ATCS file...but, if you're willing to work with me, yeah. If you wouldn't mind, I'd love to get a post here on a couple of questions. First, what do you use to create the AAS files? How involved is the process? Do you need access to the base (for lack of a better term, uncompiled) map files?
I'm working rather extensively on the bot code. Originally I wanted to create a training server where people could come and play with some bots if no one else was there and give them some rudimentary commands and a difficulty rating. Any other work you've done on it and thoughts you've had would be more than welcome. Thanks again!
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Also, it's not hard at all to find out what kind of dev has been going on with Tremulous lately, all it takes is to come to IRC and ask.
Having people try to track down and interrogate the devs on IRC is not among best practices for open source development.
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Also, it's not hard at all to find out what kind of dev has been going on with Tremulous lately, all it takes is to come to IRC and ask.
Having people try to track down and interrogate the devs on IRC is not among best practices for open source development.
No, not doing any research and making bold claims is.
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No, not doing any research and making bold claims is.
Your complaints about Ender's approach have nothing to do with my point. Are you more interested in flaming or having an actual (and hopefully productive) discussion?
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Fine. From now on, before any dev does any work they must:
* Fill a form detailing exactly what there going to do.
* Draw a rough time line for the work.
* Submit the draft to the community for inspection
* Wait a month for feedback.
* Repeat until a consensus is formed.
* Then do it.
* Fill out a detailed debrief of what they did, how it went, and how they will do better next time.
Tremulous 1.2 will be he so much quicker now we have all this process!
I would prefer the devs spend what little time they have working on code, not telling you what there doing. One gets 1.2, one doesn't.
(Oh, and watch bugzilla and SVN, and ioq43's too, and the dev chan)
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I never suggested any of that, David. That's what's known as a strawman argument. In fact, what I said was that the devs shouldn't be bothered on IRC by anyone and everyone who thinks he might want to do some coding.
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I wonder, since when does Prince_Andrei decide what the devs should and should not do?
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I wonder, since when does Prince_Andrei decide what the devs should and should not do?
Did I claim anything remotely like that? I guess I'm making the mistake of actually reading the posts I'm replying to. Apparently that's not how it's done here.
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In fact, what I said was that the devs shouldn't be bothered on IRC by anyone and everyone who thinks he might want to do some coding.
You have such a short memory span?
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In fact, what I said was that the devs shouldn't be bothered on IRC by anyone and everyone who thinks he might want to do some coding.
You have such a short memory span?
I'm questioning the logic of telling people to go harass the devs on IRC. The devs can do whatever they want for all I care. The simple, indisputable fact is that expecting the devs to regurgitate progress details to whomever bugs them on IRC is inefficient. You can have the last word, because I don't think this discussion is going anywhere.
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I think you made a smart decision, since there was no chance of talking yourself out of this.
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Actually, there are a number of people in IRC who have a good idea of what is happening who are not devs, and in fact may not even be coders, thats just where they congregate. There are also a number of coders in IRC who are not devs, they could give you info too. Many are actually very knowledgeable.
You do actually have to look to find this out though.
The point of course being that this community is not made up solely of devs, and it is not solely the devs with information concerning what is happening.
edit: Incidently, most said to go ask on IRC, not go ask the devs on irc. Maybe noone said to ask the devs in IRC, you can go read the whole series of posts again though, I have work to do.
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That's open development for you!
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I think you made a smart decision, since there was no chance of talking yourself out of this.
Wow.. u alone are enough of a reason to stay away from the tremulous forums.
The ones who really think that actual work or 'polishing' takes this insane amount of time about tremulous 1.2, should take a look at warsow which passed several milestones in less time. Its also free and its devs show much, much more effort for their community that trem community will never experience, and it has a thankful and ever growing community thx to That.
Theres a good reason why is this community became a small cage of lame flame-bots. Not because only assholes are crazy enough to still play with this beta, but because of frustration most ppl (well the ones who keeps talkin crap here, instead of actually playin) *became* assholes thx to the dead silence of developement (if it isnt just a myth anyways) after empty promises, yet there are still some crazed fanboys who justify this lol
Even a big "f**k you, we stopped developement, dont wait for nuts from us!" on the front page would be more satisfying than the no info we have now (even if there is actually progress.. somewhere). Not just coders play games nowadays and tellin f**k off and check svn (whatever that is), or spend hours to investigate for the slightest hint, is not a valid policy, if u want some ppl to play this game.
Then there was one guy who actualy wanted to do something publicly, and give something to the community and u guys who think yourselves as some mighty führer of trem for some misterious reason, just flamed him to the ground. Nice job.
Such a shame that such great game idea will be forgotten for good and just decay.
p.s. dont bother to reply with the usual flaming, i wont bother reading it.
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p.s. dont bother to reply, i wont bother reading it.
Then why bother posting it? I'll do you one better, I didn't bother to read it :>
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I think you made a smart decision, since there was no chance of talking yourself out of this.
Wow.. u alone are enough of a reason to stay away from the tremulous forums.
Bye!
[EDIT]Why did you change "p.s. dont bother to reply, i wont bother reading it" into "p.s. dont bother to reply with the usual flaming, i wont bother reading it." after Rocinante posted?
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edit: Incidently, most said to go ask on IRC, not go ask the devs on irc. Maybe noone said to ask the devs in IRC, you can go read the whole series of posts again though, I have work to do.
FWIW, the first responses to Ender specifically said devs. You were more clear and helpful. In fact, I think you summed up the issue quite nicely when you said:
the problem is that noone who bitches about how information needs to be collated is willing to do just that
Realistically, coordinating all of this would be great experience for a coder who is usually in the weeds. I volunteer Ender! :P
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But it already is coordinated just fine, and Ender hasn't exactly shown a great insight into anything, yet.
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The first post said to Ender specifically to talk to them. What with how he was trying a hostile take over and all.
And were not "flaming" because he wants to help. Were attacking him as he seems to have no idea how the world works and proper society operates. You don't just go and steal an active project.
@MadRos: That fact that you couldn't be bothered to spell anything properly and have no regard for proper grammar makes you look juvenile.
And everything you said is either factually incorrect or so outrageous that none of it deserves a real reply.
Rewrite it in English and I'll tell you why you're wrong.
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Thanks for the support Prince Andrei. I appreciate your posts here.
FWIW, the first responses to Ender specifically said devs. You were more clear and helpful. In fact, I think you summed up the issue quite nicely when you said:
the problem is that noone who bitches about how information needs to be collated is willing to do just that
I'll agree with Andrei, telling someone who is interested in development that they should go track down devs on IRC is horribly inefficient. First, there isn't a list of currently recognized devs. I could go into IRC and say "hey, devs!" and see who responds...but that seems about as useful as coming here and and asking Lava Croft for helpful, insightful commentary. I could do it, and I'd get some random responses, but the likelihood that at any given time I would get a response that actually fits my criteria is very small. Especially where we're talking about multiple IRC channels.
Then again, I recognize that it takes a great deal of work to collate information, and we'd rather have 'good' coders working on code, not on documentation. Of course, I put 'good' in quotations because I would define a good coder as one who documents what they've done themselves, which means that a good coder would be producing documentation...but now I digress. If you'd like to define a good coder as one who writes fail-proof code and nothing more, you may. Then the argument holds that you'd want that coder coding and someone else writing up documentation. Seems like that is where we're at. Since I'm now the one complaining about a lack of documentation, it only makes sense that I volunteer to collate the information. Otherwise I'm just a mouthy ass.
So, I'm going to try to spend some time in IRC meeting the real devs. Then I'll start posting about what they are doing and what has been done, if they choose to talk to me about it. Then this whole business will be behind us, I hope. I then get to help with 1.2 without a hostile takeover, and hopefully the community will benefit with more information. Problem solved.
Realistically, coordinating all of this would be great experience for a coder who is usually in the weeds. I volunteer Ender! :P
Thanks Andrei, glad I have someone's vote already.
@MadRos: Thanks for seeing the other side of things. I didn't think your English was poor, though you did use some 'modern abbreviations' that made it a little harder to read, but overall, quite understandable.
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Have you ever talked to Timbo on IRC... over a year ago I asked when 1.2 was going to be out, he just said "Thursday". I find kelvarman and the others on the channel to be more helpful.
I do agree with a comment made above that the Devs should focus on the development, and let others do the fielding of these sorts of questions.
@Lava Croft... and others: I will try an experiment, since I'm always crying out that there doesn't seem to be any goal posts. I will, over this weekend hop onto IRC and ask for these goal posts and where we are up to. I will post up somewhere, either in this thread or another exactly what response I get. If I get something worth while I will collate it in something hopefully concise, even if I don't understand it (since I'm not a tremulous developer and only toy around with coding for my own purposes)
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I can only agree on one thing: Stop saying what the Devs should and should not do. You haven't said what they should and should not for the past 8 years, so please stick to that and do it the coming 8 years either. Just because Tremulous is popular now does not mean you hold any right to make demands of any kind. This is just plain ridiculous. If you want to keep the devs away from the community, this behaviour is surely the way to go.
A second note: The people who are actually working on Tremulous never needed a forum thread like this to get to work, did they?
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I can only agree on one thing: Stop saying what the Devs should and should not do. You haven't said what they should and should not for the past 8 years, so please stick to that and do it the coming 8 years either. Just because Tremulous is popular now does not mean you hold any right to make demands of any kind. This is just plain ridiculous. If you want to keep the devs away from the community, this behaviour is surely the way to go.
A second note: The people who are actually working on Tremulous never needed a forum thread like this to get to work, did they?
That's about the most ridiculous thing I've heard in ages. What good is a community if nobody is allowed to voice their opinions and suggest how to do things? Why don't the dev's go jump into a sheltered hole then, take nobodies advice, and release 1.2 in 6 more years. I'm terribly sorry if the devs have no social skills at all and can't take any suggestions. Maybe in that case Ender should be the new dev team, by himself. He's the only one that's letting people know "Hey, I'm doing this. What do you guys think?" Like whoever it was said above, no normal player of the game who has no interest in coding/modding tremulous is going to hunt around IRC for public information about the next release. Even then, some people who ARE interested won't know where to go, because of the absolutely pathetic release of information. Go with the guy, accept that he's here to help, and listen to his suggestions instead of getting your ass in a bunch over a name.
Now that trem actually has a player-base, the players are going to suggest ways to improve the game in the future. Giving previous dev's this "Invincibility to criticism" is absurd. It's a god-damned open-source GPL'ed game. Anybody can do anything with it as they would like. Hell, anybody can call anybody else lazy, or point out their flaws too.
The responses I saw in this thread to Ender's completely legitimate post made me furious. I'm used to people in the modding section who post ideas without doing shit being shot down, but look at what Ender's done. He's improving the game, adding his choices, and calling it whatever he rightfully wants and can. Then, when he lets you guys know, you throw a shitstorm of flames at him.
And one more thing. You can call the dev team whatever you want. They get the credit for making the original game, but anybody can create the next version of the game. Nowhere in the law does it state that Ender can't release 1.2 before the devs if he believes his changes are good enough to make 1.2. Ender can release version 1000 if he wanted to, and it wouldn't make a damn. One thing you have to realize though, is that yes, the dev team made an incredible accomplishment in creating the original mod, but nobody is official. You can call them the official dev team, but Ender has just as much a right of criticizing them and suggesting what to do as any joe schmo you find on the street.
And Lava, regarding your last post, are you completely forgetting that Ender is saying "I've DONE the work, and I'm nearly ready to finalize it"? He's not asking for help. He's saying "Look, this is what I've DONE, what do you think?" This thread should be considering his changes, and making suggestions about them, instead of bashing the guy because he worked for the interest of the game.
It's assholes like you, Lava, who can't be pleased with anything unless it's "Official" that made me quit Trem. Go double-check what type of game you're playing and post accordingly.
Ender, good work. I'd appreciate you releasing this, just to say that "FUCK YOU" to these assholes in this thread that take no appreciation of your hard work.
-Bull
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I think I have nothing to add to this classic case of self-ownage. Good work.
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I'd have more respect for people who aren't the devs if they'd quit adding all sorts of terrible things that either make Trem more like a deathmatch or create a bunch of made-for-abuse admin commands.
Based on Ender's page, he has or intends to do a lot of both of these things, which means he's clearly taking the game in the wrong direction. No thanks.
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I think that Lava is right (as he usually is, I am reluctant to say). The devs have not been seen on the forums in a while. While I'm sure they are taking players advice for changes, I don't think that they want people coming in a telling them what to do.
I also fully agree with Lakitu7. Tremulous is supposed to be unique. It's not a deathmatch game, and over-the-top admin commands are stupid (I however fully endorse the great ones, such as votekick reasons and such).
Tremulous is the property of Darklegion Development. If you want, go make a mod for Trem, or better yet, go make your own game.
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Have you ever talked to Timbo on IRC... over a year ago I asked when 1.2 was going to be out, he just said "Thursday".
Thats a very old joke around here. It predates me, probably by years. About the hundredth time you are asked when * will be released, you'll start saying "Thursday" too.
I relate it to the old contractor joke used liberally in the movie "The Money Pit (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091541/)" where the contractor is asked when they will be finished and always, without fail, answer "2 weeks".
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Lakitu7:
Based on Ender's page, he has or intends to do a lot of both of these things, which means he's clearly taking the game in the wrong direction. No thanks.
Fortunately, he's genuinely interested in getting input from others, which is why this discussion is taking place. I like some of these changes better than others. I dislike virtually all the so-called official 1.2 gameplay changes that are currently being tested. We all have our opinions. Ender has both the motivation and skill to do something with his, and he's nice enough to talk to those of us who lack one or both.
The people who accomplish things in life are the ones who aren't satisfied. Ender has every right to try to improve things, irrespective of what's happened in the past. That's open development for you!
And Kaleo, as Bull noted very clearly, the game is GPL'd.
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The game IS GPLed, which still does not mean that you can use the Name of the product to release your version of it. Call it Tremulous Ender's Edition, but not Tremulous XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX. It is actually stated in GPL license afaik.
Hence unless the current development team will allow you to release Tremulous 1.2, you have no right to use the name of the project for your own modification.
All above said has no intention to either support this topic or opposite. I have no opinioin and do not care of whether this will happen or not.
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I more concerned that all these admin cheats that everyone is putting in will ruin tremulous. Who's gonna want to play tremulous if everywhere they go they get slapped, or admins run cheat clients cause they aren't restricted to running pure clients, or cause they alone can build instantly by binding !toggleinstantbuild into their build commands, or everyone on the admins team suddenly has luci cannons.
If you don't think it will happen, I'm here to inform you that it already has. If you think making those cheats easier to use will make for a better game, then you are very naive. There are servers that I actively avoid cause I have seen admins cheat, usually multiple times.
On the bright side, I can advertise what build I'm using and get good players who are avoiding the cheat infested builds. Hmm, maybe this will work out to everyone's benefit. The cheaters will be much more obvious as will the malicious admins.
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I more concerned that all these admin cheats that everyone is putting in will ruin tremulous. Who's gonna want to play tremulous if everywhere they go they get slapped, or admins run cheat clients cause they aren't restricted to running pure clients, or cause they alone can build instantly by binding !toggleinstantbuild into their build commands, or everyone on the admins team suddenly has luci cannons.
If you don't think it will happen, I'm here to inform you that it already has. If you think making those cheats easier to use will make for a better game, then you are very naive. There are servers that I actively avoid cause I have seen admins cheat, usually multiple times.
On the bright side, I can advertise what build I'm using and get good players who are avoiding the cheat infested builds. Hmm, maybe this will work out to everyone's benefit. The cheaters will be much more obvious as will the malicious admins.
I agree with you on the abuse side - the items I'm working on adding (and have already added) open the door very wide for admin abuse. I've posted as much on my page. We have all been to those awful servers where the admins have gone nuts and ruin things for everyone - S11.info comes to mind very quickly. The reason I have put all of these things in is not for admin abuse - it is because originally I wanted to create a training server, a place where people could learn the game. I want a place where someone could say 'gee, I'd love to practice with a luci today' and they could find an admin and rather than having to waste time with the admins killing themselves to give the person stage 3 and credits, the admin can just do !setstage humans 3, !give playerX luci. All of these commands are going to be controlled via server-side cvars, and cvars can be made visible to clients so that you know what you are getting into. More importantly, if a server is filled with jerk admins, don't go there. We all do it, I have a very short list of servers I like, places I trust to have a fair game and good players, and I play there. That's what the Favorites list is for.
Now, that all said, yes, I can see your point, admin abuse will get worse with these commands. But, if I have the option of giving more power to everyone, I'm going to take it. It's the fault of individual admins if they use power to be douchebags. Admins who do so will eventually find themselves with an empty server.
As for the GPL'd issue, I haven't read the license, but it seems like a natural thing to protect the original name. Thanks for pointing that out. I no longer have any intention of releasing 1.2 myself. Though I still have yet to find any devs in IRC.
[edit]
Okay, I did find a dev on IRC. Timbo. He seemed nice enough. Anyways, just wanted to amend my previous statement, in case people got the idea that I was saying devs aren't on IRC. They are, you just have to hit the right time.
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The reason I have put all of these things in is not for admin abuse - it is because originally I wanted to create a training server, a place where people could learn the game.
lakitu's devmap that disables god mode (and noclip i think) does this much better in my opinion, without the potential for abuse.
Though I still have yet to find any devs in IRC.
funny, i talked to 3 of them last night.
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try #tremulous-dev @ chat.freenode.net
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Yes, training is what devmap is for. If things only work in devmap, then you can't be playing a normal game until WHOOPS NOW THERE'S AN !EARTHQUAKE LOLOLOL.
Of course people with The Wrong Idea™ will modify anything you restrict to only devmap to work all the time, but there's a responsibility as a good coder to do the right thing and let people modify their godawful hax themselves. Though in your case, you're modding killerHP to work outside devmap, so you seem to be in the second camp.
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I more concerned that all these admin cheats that everyone is putting in will ruin tremulous. <...> There are servers that I actively avoid cause I have seen admins cheat, usually multiple times.
I just don't see how admin cheating, no matter what new commands are added, can be anything more than a very minor problem. It is several orders of magnitude less so than the proliferation of increasingly sophisticated aimbots. Walk through this with me. An aimbotter can hide and change his identity and hop from server to server. An admin is tied to a server. Any cheating large enough to have an impact on the game will be noticed if done multiple times. The server will get a reputation for cheating admins and will be avoided by all who care about such things. Just like Tuple and Ender and everyone else, I avoid servers where I think cheating occurs. The good servers with big, loyal communities are full of players who scream bloody murder if they think they see admin cheating. On DS we do aimbot investigations almost daily. Allegations of admin abuse are very, very rare and much simpler to resolve.
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Adding features that serve no real purpose is a good way to make your game suck beyond belief. Also, DS must be some sort of aimbot magnet, since we have like one aimbotter per every 3 months. Aimbot are not a problem at all in Tremulous.
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Cheating admins just reduce amount of players that play more than once.
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Cheating admins just reduce amount of players that play more than once.
Exactly. What better way to shrink the player base?
Everyone seems to think that devs not building what the player base wants is bad for tremulous. Thats not really true. Many of the things that are wanted are pointless and stupid. See the !poison command for an example. People will continue to play tremulous because it is a fun game that can be played fairly. If you can't find a fair fight or a server were you aren't treated like shit, you won't play for much longer.
There is also a considerable difference between cheating players and admins. Cheating players manipulate their client. Cheating admins manipulate the server. Thats orders of magnitude in difference, and considerably more difficult to catch.
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The server will get a reputation for cheating admins and will be avoided by all who care about such things.
Counter example: SST.
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Aimbot are not a problem at all in Tremulous.
Most preposterous statement on this thread so far, by a mile. I don't think you're really that naive, so you must be arguing for argument's sake. The bots are widely available, with settings meant to look like real playing--including misses, scattering aim, no-shake for chainguns, wallhacks, etc. If you haven't seen the new bots (not the crappy, snappy ones), you'll be amazed at how real they look. We've had admin clinics to help people learn to recognize them. I see them on every server I play on, without exception. They are out there and used. Try to give a logical reason why aimbotters would only go to a server that is extremely good at catching them.
David, I knew someone would bring up SST. I stopped playing there after seeing admins repeatedly cheat, including one using an aimbot--a horribly obvious one at that. I don't know that their players necessarily define cheating the same way most of us would, and that's fine. If someone wants to make an all cheat server, they can, and people will probably play there.
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I remember one dude came onto a server trying to pedal his aimbot. Then we asked for a demonstration, he aim looked exactly like an aimbot, except it didn't hit stuff at all. Needless to say, don't bother getting an aimbot, they don't exactly have quality control regulations.
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Aimbot are not a problem at all in Tremulous.
Most preposterous statement on this thread so far, by a mile. I don't think you're really that naive, so you must be arguing for argument's sake. The bots are widely available, with settings meant to look like real playing--including misses, scattering aim, no-shake for chainguns, wallhacks, etc. If you haven't seen the new bots (not the crappy, snappy ones), you'll be amazed at how real they look. We've had admin clinics to help people learn to recognize them. I see them on every server I play on, without exception. They are out there and used. Try to give a logical reason why aimbotters would only go to a server that is extremely good at catching them.
David, I knew someone would bring up SST. I stopped playing there after seeing admins repeatedly cheat, including one using an aimbot--a horribly obvious one at that. I don't know that their players necessarily define cheating the same way most of us would, and that's fine. If someone wants to make an all cheat server, they can, and people will probably play there.
If someone ever makes an aimbot good enough to be undetectable, he has ,in effect, created something akin to natural good aim. And I don't think that is as bad since if you're up against good players you will encounter it anyway, consider it training. Maybe that is why you're seeing aimbots on every server without fail, your detection method might be including some natural good players as well.
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Most preposterous statement on this thread so far, by a mile. I don't think you're really that naive, so you must be arguing for argument's sake.
Actually, you are probably kicking old school players as aimbotters. We have logs going back a ways, and have found some great, old school, pre-aimbot players that get kicked for aimbotting. You may not recall, but it used to be a badge of honor to be kicked for botting before there were aimbots. It was a badge of honor until it got annoying that is.
Maybe Lava's server and others doesn't have quite the "aimbot" problem cause they know their playerbase, and know who the good players are for the most part. Or maybe they've been playing for so long that they know an actual good player when they see one. You may think they're being fooled, but it may be you who are fooled. There are ways you can tell. An aimbot can help you aim and even let you see the enemy, but it can't show you the RTS aspects of the game, and it can't teach you the peculiarities of the maps. It can't tell you which buildings to attack first, or how to build.
I used to sit on my server and spec great players before the aimbots and now I see lots of people that can't tell the good players from the botters.
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The people who spend their every effort in Tremulous creating things to combat this great and terrible plague of aimbotters do more harm than the actual aimbotters do. If they're REALLY good, we kick them. If they're not that good, then they're not that much of a problem. An aimbot that aims only as good as a moderately above average player may as well not be a botter: it's not disruptive. On the competitive scene, such an aimbot will just get its ass whooped, so it's not an issue there either. The biggest problem is when the paranoia and accusations fly far and you have a) admins kicking all the talented players for "aimbots" and b) players calling votekicks on all the talented players for "aimbots." The result is just noobs. I'll take a server full of 10 skilled players and 1 that may be botting over a server full of 10 noobs and no botters any day.
I have an equal number of aimbot bans that I've overturned because they were unfounded nonsense with no evidence than those I have created for actual aimbotting.
Aaaand on the previous topic: The game still needs people to grow. People who're new to the game can't tell the awful hax or mod qvm servers from those where Tremulous is actually played. That's not good for the game's playerbase to survive in the longterm. It's even worse if we have jokers releasing qvms full of hax that even idiots can install, and EVEN WORSE when they release those posing as something official.
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Actually, you are probably kicking old school players as aimbotters.
Wow, this is a mighty big assumption and more than just a little insulting. You post on the DS forum, so you should see how much discussion and evaluation goes into this type of thing. I routinely get kicked for botting on servers that just allow vote kicks for that type of thing, so I know firsthand how obnoxious that is. It isn't a badge of honor to get kicked by noobs. We require strong demo evidence posted on the website.
Lakitu7, you are contradicting yourself pretty severely. On the one hand you talk about how the game needs new people and how hacks discourage that. Then when you discuss aimbots you talk about the competitive scene. See the disconnect here? Nothing frustrates new players--especially when they've never done anything like dretching in an FPS--like some noob who can't dodge but knew how to install a bot. I agree that talented players rip apart aimbotters, but that is irrelevant.
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New players can't tell who's a botter. Seasoned veterans can barely tell the borderline cases. The disconnect is because botters are not something that new players will be able to discern. If the botting problem were less overstated, the opinion among the noobs won't be that whoever is better than they are is automatically botting, as is frequently the case now. Some noobs will always think that, but those are the kind of idiots that can't be helped.
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New players can't tell who's a botter.
They may not even know what a botter is, leaving them just thinking that being a dretch is impossible, because everyone's aim is so good. My perspective might be a little different, because I come from a larger server that wants to be very newbie friendly. If you spend much time on DS, you'll notice that there are almost no aimbot accusations. Admins are private messaged, and they make careful decisions, often after demoing players and discussing it via the website. The old-school pros are almost all known, most having kick protection. This is probably getting this thread a little off topic.
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Wow, this is a mighty big assumption and more than just a little insulting.
Too bad, its mostly true. We have more decon bans than all other bans combined. I have access to logs containing IPs going back some time, so I know its true. There are no DS forums, and the site is just this side of impossible to read as a result. Blogified forums, ug. I don't go there so much anymore for that reason.
It isn't a badge of honor to get kicked by noobs.
ug, quit taking things out of context. "You may not recall, but it used to be a badge of honor to be kicked for botting before there were aimbots." What that means is that even though there were no aimbots, you were sooooo good that people believed that you had an aimbot. Newsflash, it STILL happens, only now there are aimbots and its annoying because of that.
Lakitu7, you are contradicting yourself pretty severely.
Actually, Lakitu7 isn't. I've seen good players play against aimbots and win, consistently. An aimbot makes a poor player seem ok, but not good enough to stand up to a great player. And an aimbot won't tell you that you need to kill your opponents base, NOT get s3. Thats also part of the reason that DS has kicked skilled players for aimbotting. Don't tell me they haven't or that its an assumption. I've had players that I know to be great join the server and say exactly that. "I just got kicked from DS for botting." Don't get your panties all in a bundle, "apologies Atom_Eve ;) " every server does it on occasion. Check the PureTremulous forums and you'll see that I've kicked players for botting that, after looking at the demos again, decided that I was wrong. But your complaint that it is happening all the time implies that you either are being targeted, are witch hunting, or are kicking good players, cause there are two servers that have more than a year and a half experience each (satgnu even longer!) that seem to dispute your claim. SST is generally targeted AND bans you if you smell bad, so I tend to not count them in that respect ;D
Really its a question of scale though. A botter can get vote kicked, ruining maybe a match or twi. If a player tells a good admin, the botter can be banned then, even blocked at the firewall. A malicious admin can ruin tremulous for everyone that joins the server, ever.
What I think Lakitu7 means is that a never ending witch hunt for botters is more harmful than the botters themselves. Don't believe me? Look at their forums, they laugh about it.
Nothing frustrates new players--especially when they've never done anything like dretching in an FPS--like some noob who can't dodge but knew how to install a bot.
I used to play different servers all the time. I'd pick a new name every time I started tremulous and go looking for matches. I know whats more frustrating than realizing that some moron is using a bot. Its being treated like shit by some napoleon who's never heard of you and wants to show to his friends and/or clanmates what a big dick he has with his admin powers.
That happened a hell of a lot more than I see botters nowadays.
I got lucky though. I was a newb on a server where people helped. Thats what we need, helpful players, not more powerful admins.
I might add that Lakitu7 and I are in MG. MG specializes in unintentionally taking threads off topic!
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PureTrem is precisely the server that I have the worst problem getting kicked on. The vast majority of what you, Lakitu7, and I are saying is actually in agreement. What we don't agree on, apparently, is the relative dangers of cheating players vs. cheating admins.
Oh, and Tuple, the reason I wasn't a fan of this statement:
Actually, you are probably kicking old school players as aimbotters.
is because I took the word "you" to mean me specifically, as if I am your prototypical noob admin.
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Noobs will callvote on anyone with kills, sadly. And occaisionally mistakes by the admins do happen. We keep demos of anyone that we ban and and investigate them for anyone who complains politely (not those who fly off the handle and just swear exessively at us).
For what it's worth, you now have L2 / vote immunity on PT. We may not be in full lock-step agreement, but you're civil, above the average server talent curve, and you're no botter.
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@Tuple: About half our players we know, the other half are randon newbies.
It only takes a minute of spectating to find out if someone is using an aimbot. Sometimes the aimbotters are so thick you can even point them out without having to spectate them in first person. And really, you must either play on shitty servers, or not know what an aimbot is, because I regularly play on American and European servers, and rarely encounter aimbotters. The problem with aimbotters is not really the aimbotters themselves, it's the people who overreact to this phenomenon and blow it way out of proportion. If you think about aimbotters in every game of Tremulous you play, you will become paranoid enough to see aimbotters around every corner. Good way to ruin your fun.
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is because I took the word "you" to mean me specifically, as if I am your prototypical noob admin.
Heh, sorry bout that. I meant the general you, not the specific you.
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No prob, Tuple. ;D And thanks Lakitu7--for the help on PT and for the interesting discussion.
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I remember one dude came onto a server trying to pedal his aimbot. Then we asked for a demonstration, he aim looked exactly like an aimbot, except it didn't hit stuff at all. Needless to say, don't bother getting an aimbot, they don't exactly have quality control regulations.
One day I'm gonna have to code a missbot :P
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By the way, I recently played with someone who, although not an aimbot, was pretty awesome with a mass-driver. Whenever I mentioned that I either was speccing him or that his skills were kinda suspicious, his skill-level dropped. After a while, we all figured out that I kept making him self-conscious. Every non-noob on the server had a couple of laughs about it.
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I'm sorry pple, I let you down, I didn't make it to the IRC it seemed like a very busy weekend. I will try again this week.
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Ender, did you get my PM? if not, please PM me your email address.
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I'm sorry pple, I let you down, I didn't make it to the IRC it seemed like a very busy weekend. I will try again this week.
I've seen you hop on a couple times; it's good to see you're trying to gather information, however you might be going about it in a way that would be detrimental to the end goal. Think about homework - if you have a page of math problems to finish, but you're in the middle of doing other things and your mother comes in to ask "Is your homework done yet? What's left to do? Why haven't you done it? Let me see it. This shouldn't take long, just do it now and be done with it"... well that's likely to make you resent your mother for the moment and not want to motivate you to drop what you're doing and get right on it :>
Now replace "other things" above with "real life", and "homework" with "something you do in your spare time because it's fun and you enjoy it". Suddenly the mother in that scenario has no leg to stand on, because your world will continue to function (and there's no serious repercussions) if you don't do those math problems.
If you want to learn about what's going on, you've got the right start - hang out in the IRC channels. But instead of the paparazzi method of pouncing on someone with 30 questions, be gentle. If you can, lurk in the channel for longer periods of time (all the time if possible) as development discussions happen at random times with no defined start and stop. Another thing which may work, though I can't speak for any of the developers, would be to write up a nice list of the questions you have and send it to them - if you want an "interview" style exchange, you're probably more likely to get it if the time allowed for the replies is more than "I'm here, I'm asking now, and I'm waiting for you to respond" as it gives the interviewee time to gather the response and think about the question.
Also note that none of this is a direct attack on anyone who's come into IRC thus far - just realize that simply because you're now there doesn't mean "Okay, dev talk is on now, everything else waits and answers will be forthcoming" (I've seen at least one person, not necessarily part of this thread, who had the idea that because they were there everything in the conversation needed to revolve around them immediately. They failed.)
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@Rocinante: I applaud your frank and useful attitude, sir. Plus-one'd. :)