I'd like to release Tremulous 1.2

[meren]

Please stop sending "go fork your self" jokes. Especially I wouldn't expect to see this kind of unhelpful stuff coming from MG people..

I know why you are angry and I appreciate all effort, but please just calm down and try not to lose a possible, good developer.

[Norfenstein]

I had geared myself up for a hostile code takeover, thinking that the only reason MG hadn't done it was because they're polite. Looks like that was the wrong attitude. Time to do some more research on what is really going on out there...

Can I suggest starting with the front page of Tremulous.net (the post at the top, made by Timbo just two weeks ago)?

[Atom Eve]

I'll forgive your horrendous oversight of basic methods of information gathering (especially when taking on a project so big as, for instance, the entire development of a PC game) due to the way you handled yourself against the replies. Nice to see that you aren't an idiotic dickhead, but just presumptuous.

[Ender]

I had geared myself up for a hostile code takeover, thinking that the only reason MG hadn't done it was because they're polite. Looks like that was the wrong attitude. Time to do some more research on what is really going on out there...

Can I suggest starting with the front page of Tremulous.net (the post at the top, made by Timbo just two weeks ago)?

You've got a good point there. I had discounted Timbo's post for two reasons. One, I haven't seen much that is publicly visible that Timbo has done. I have seen what MG has done, and (wrongly) assumed that Timbo was mostly trying to play off of MG's work and make it look like he hadn't been asleep for a year. I should have realized that this was, in fact, Timbo showing that he's been working with MG, and therefore MG's publicly visible work is a reflection of Timbo's invisible work.

The second reason I had discounted Timbo's post was the comment at the bottom of http://www.mercenariesguild.net/patches/?do=details&task_id=2 made by vcxzet, who again has a lot of credulity in my mind because of his phenomenal work with the backport and other great Tremulous modifications. If he thinks development is going nowhere with Timbo, and he's been doing this for longer than I have, and Timbo is the only developer mentioned in the Tremulous credits, than it seems logical to me that Timbo did all the coding himself, then dropped the ball, and now other developers that want to carry the torch are left without a legitimate way to do so.

It appears then that Timbo is actually working with MG to do bugfixes and balance testing, and that others are working on other improvements...?

[Lava Croft]

vcxzet/f0rqu3 gets no respect from his community at all, actually, he is banned from it.

[Ender]

I'll forgive your horrendous oversight of basic methods of information gathering (especially when taking on a project so big as, for instance, the entire development of a PC game) due to the way you handled yourself against the replies. Nice to see that you aren't an idiotic dickhead, but just presumptuous.

Thanks . I was actually avoiding the basic information gathering, as I tend to fall asleep when I have to read a lot. It's so much easier to just jump into a forum, say something atrocious, presumtuous and controversial, then field self-deprecating replies until you find out who the really important people/places are. Granted, you look like an idiotic dickhead, but it saves you the hours of half-conscious reading and the keyboard button indentations on the forehead 

Seriously though, I've learned a lot from this experience. I honestly thought this post would anger a few people, not interest most, but make a few people happy that someone wanted to start up development in earnest. I had no idea I was going to be sticking my finger in the eye of some generous and hard-working people. Sorry folks!

[Ender]

vcxzet/f0rqu3 gets no respect from his community at all, actually, he is banned from it.

What for?

Seems awfully ironic that I pegged him as a respected, contributing member of the community - when I first started playing Tremulous I was quickly made an admin on S11.info... after a bit of googling I never went back there.

[TRaK]

Please cut Ender some slack. He really is a good, competent guy, and he's just trying to contribute. While his approach could have been more tactful, the Tremulous community can only lose by publicly lynching anyone who shows some initiative and willingness to help, however misguided.

[tuple]

Aww, we haven't had a good public lynching in a while!
Guess I'll have to watch a movie now that I've made popcorn 

Man, I was gonna pull out one of his fingernails :kicks:

[Norfenstein]

I should have realized that this was, in fact, Timbo showing that he's been working with MG, and therefore MG's publicly visible work is a reflection of Timbo's invisible work.

...

It appears then that Timbo is actually working with MG to do bugfixes and balance testing, and that others are working on other improvements...?

If you actually read the post it explains the situation rather unambiguously.

[Ender]

I should have realized that this was, in fact, Timbo showing that he's been working with MG, and therefore MG's publicly visible work is a reflection of Timbo's invisible work.

...

It appears then that Timbo is actually working with MG to do bugfixes and balance testing, and that others are working on other improvements...?

If you actually read the post it explains the situation rather unambiguously.

Yes, you're right, it is clear....unless you read it with a jaded eye that thinks Timbo hasn't done anything useful in a year. Which was how I originally read it. If you read it as a clear-thinking, normal person, you see that he's obviously just talking about what's been going on in development. 

[Plague]

LOL someone mentions tangible progress and people get angry


This is your last warning, stop leeching our bandwidth -Lava

i miss vcxzet because he believed in progress 

[Kaleo]

I miss vcxzet because we needed an asshole on the forums.

Noobs just aren't the same.

[FisherP]

At the end of the day though there's a lesson to be learned here for all I think. There is no documentation anywhere that clearly shows what is required for the development team to release 1.2. In effect there is nothing to aim towards, no "goal posts". This in turn leads people, like Ender who are honestly trying to help, to believe that there is nothing being done by the development team. In addition to this, when there's no goal posts development can get to a point where it's never finished.

It's unfortunate that the same people who have been known to say "If you don't like it, why not fork it yourself" have turned around and flamed someone quite effectively when he was suggesting that he was about to do exactly that. I personally do not believe that a fork is the way to go, because I know that development is happening and am content to wait till it's finished. However I applaud Ender for his efforts, and give the thumbs down to all those who didn't take the time to look at his efforts in the light in which it was intended.

[Kaleo]

I think that the fact that this is the Tremulous community forums must be pointed out again. Make a suggestion and someone will flame you... This guy just happened to have a bad day.

Seriously guys, I think that you all should take the flaming a little easier from now on.

Also, I'm probably gonna get flamed for this.

Hell, I'm defiantly gonna get flamed for posting the above line.

[cyrri]

good to see that at least someone is using the bot framework 
if i can be of any help with documentation or aas files for other maps than atcs, let me know. iirc, the version of the patch i posted on the MG tracker is not the latest and greatest.

[Lava Croft]

@FisherP: Ender was not suggestion to fork Tremulous, he was suggesting to release 1.2. Also, it's not hard at all to find out what kind of dev has been going on with Tremulous lately, all it takes is to come to IRC and ask. Or send someone a forum PM. Ender just made a post full of accusations without even doing the most tiny bit of research. That is why people flame him, not because of his desire to fork Tremulous.

[Ender]

good to see that at least someone is using the bot framework 
if i can be of any help with documentation or aas files for other maps than atcs, let me know. iirc, the version of the patch i posted on the MG tracker is not the latest and greatest.

Wow, thanks cyrri - that would be awesome. Your bot patch was excellent to start with, but if there's more, I'd love to have it. The AAS files are my current problem, I'm starting to do research into how you created the ATCS file...but, if you're willing to work with me, yeah. If you wouldn't mind, I'd love to get a post here on a couple of questions. First, what do you use to create the AAS files? How involved is the process? Do you need access to the base (for lack of a better term, uncompiled) map files?

I'm working rather extensively on the bot code. Originally I wanted to create a training server where people could come and play with some bots if no one else was there and give them some rudimentary commands and a difficulty rating. Any other work you've done on it and thoughts you've had would be more than welcome. Thanks again!

[Prince_Andrei]

Also, it's not hard at all to find out what kind of dev has been going on with Tremulous lately, all it takes is to come to IRC and ask.

Having people try to track down and interrogate the devs on IRC is not among best practices for open source development.

[Lava Croft]

Also, it's not hard at all to find out what kind of dev has been going on with Tremulous lately, all it takes is to come to IRC and ask.

Having people try to track down and interrogate the devs on IRC is not among best practices for open source development.

No, not doing any research and making bold claims is.

[Prince_Andrei]

No, not doing any research and making bold claims is.

Your complaints about Ender's approach have nothing to do with my point. Are you more interested in flaming or having an actual (and hopefully productive) discussion?

[David]

Fine.  From now on, before any dev does any work they must:
* Fill a form detailing exactly what there going to do.
* Draw a rough time line for the work.
* Submit the draft to the community for inspection
* Wait a month for feedback.
* Repeat until a consensus is formed.
* Then do it.
* Fill out a detailed debrief of what they did, how it went, and how they will do better next time.

Tremulous 1.2 will be he so much quicker now we have all this process!

I would prefer the devs spend what little time they have working on code, not telling you what there doing.  One gets 1.2, one doesn't.

(Oh, and watch bugzilla and SVN, and ioq43's too, and the dev chan)

[Prince_Andrei]

I never suggested any of that, David. That's what's known as a strawman argument. In fact, what I said was that the devs shouldn't be bothered on IRC by anyone and everyone who thinks he might want to do some coding.

[Lava Croft]

I wonder, since when does Prince_Andrei decide what the devs should and should not do?

[Prince_Andrei]

I wonder, since when does Prince_Andrei decide what the devs should and should not do?

Did I claim anything remotely like that? I guess I'm making the mistake of actually reading the posts I'm replying to. Apparently that's not how it's done here.

[Lava Croft]

In fact, what I said was that the devs shouldn't be bothered on IRC by anyone and everyone who thinks he might want to do some coding.

You have such a short memory span?

[Prince_Andrei]

In fact, what I said was that the devs shouldn't be bothered on IRC by anyone and everyone who thinks he might want to do some coding.

You have such a short memory span?

I'm questioning the logic of telling people to go harass the devs on IRC. The devs can do whatever they want for all I care. The simple, indisputable fact is that expecting the devs to regurgitate progress details to whomever bugs them on IRC is inefficient. You can have the last word, because I don't think this discussion is going anywhere.

[Lava Croft]

I think you made a smart decision, since there was no chance of talking yourself out of this.

[tuple]

Actually, there are a number of people in IRC who have a good idea of what is happening who are not devs, and in fact may not even be coders, thats just where they congregate.  There are also a number of coders in IRC who are not devs, they could give you info too.  Many are actually very knowledgeable.

You do actually have to look to find this out though.

The point of course being that this community is not made up solely of devs, and it is not solely the devs with information concerning what is happening.

edit: Incidently, most said to go ask on IRC, not go ask the devs on irc.  Maybe noone said to ask the devs in IRC, you can go read the whole series of posts again though, I have work to do.

[Lava Croft]

That's open development for you!