Tremulous Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: FooBar on March 12, 2008, 07:15:24 pm
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Hey, all. FooBar here.
It's been quite a while since I've been active on the boards, the servers, or the development community. Events in my life took precedence and I've had to spend my time on other things. Sadly, this post doesn't mark a return to the Tremulous community, as I will continue to have other priorities for the foreseeable future.
Recently I've been thinking a little bit about Tremulous development and the uncertainty surrounding the release date of 1.2. Now, I will be the first to argue against hard deadlines. In my opinion, "when it's done" is a perfectly acceptable timeframe for a project, especially an open-source project that is primarily developed by volunteers. This post is not a call for a deadline of any kind.
Instead, this is a call for a road map. Although many software projects do not have hard deadlines, most responsibly administered projects DO have a road map. By "road map", I mean a list of future version numbers with specific goals, improvements, and new features planned to be implemented for each version. The point of such a road map is to provide users with a sense of progress and developers with a sense of direction and limitation. In any project there is a strong tendency to say "just one more feature" over and over, and the next release never comes. The road map avoids this by assigning release points based on the implementation of specific features, rather than a general sense of "done-ness".
In addition, a road map can foster greater community involvement. There are many developers who would gladly contribute to Tremulous, if they knew what improvements were desired. With a road map, it is easy to see what is finished, what is being worked on (and by whom), and what still needs to be done.
I am not in communication with the current Dev Team, but I have looked on the forums and web sites and not seen a formal road map publicly posted anywhere. If a private road map does exist, I would like to respectfully suggest that it be made public, preferably in a wiki or other collaborative environment. If a road map does not exist, then I respectfully suggest that the creation of one should take priority over all other development work.
Tremulous needs a sense of direction. The community is floundering and stagnant. You are lost. I appeal to the development team to set out a road map for versions 1.2, 1.3, and beyond... and then stick to it.
We all know that 1.2 will be out "when it's done". It is time to define precisely what "done" means.
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thank you
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"done" is not static. 1.1.0 was "done" back in 2006, but now it looks pretty rough compared to the current revisions out there.
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it's up to the devs mood whether if they want to publish their plans or not.
I'd like to know about new features ofc, maybe many of the forum members could help with it also, but maybe they don'T want everyone to be included with different "stupid" ideas. as seen on many of the forum threads here.
however, a non-forum based plan would be welcomed, what shouldn't be interactive but only a motivator to the audience and the devteam itself about what to expect and when.
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We all know that 1.2 will be out "when it's done". It is time to define precisely what "done" means.
Quote. For. Truth.
v1.1.0 was done then.
Currently v1.1.0-1063 is done.
We are all just wondering what v1.2.0-X needs to have in order to call v1.2.0-X done.
(Disclaimer, I made up my own numeration system, tell me if you want it amended)
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The alien "weapons" that have already been posted here.
The hud kev is supposedly coding.
Norf's balance changes.
There are some new weapon models floating around, no idea what stage there at.
That's all the big things I can think of off right now. Sure I missed something though.
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Off the top of my head, also:
New official maps, seen only in screenshots and teasers, unless you are a TremDev.
[Cancelled] Voice-chat, as Dolby 'disappeared'
[likely Cancelled] Mini-map functions
And last but not least...
(Seemingly...) Endless bugs to squash.
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Thanks for the info...
However, what I was getting at is that there should be a formal, official list of exactly what does and does not need to be done before the 1.2 release. This includes a determination of which bugs are critical enough to be fixed "right now" and which can wait for 1.3.
The list should be a reference and posted somewhere public with version tracking (i.e. a wiki), and updated as progress is made and the various tasks are completed.
Eventually, when the majority of the required tasks are complete, a release timeline should be written, including dates for components freezing, alpha and beta releases, and the final release. However (as I said before) there's no need to implement a schedule at the moment; a task-based roadmap should be the first step.
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yes think about all the time spent on making bots. If that time went to making 1.2 it would be out by now. Unfortunately people don't know what to work on so there time is spent on less important things like making bots follow you. In the long run a "road map" will make 1.2 come out a lot faster.
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[Cancelled] Voice-chat, as Dolby 'disappeared'
wrong
[likely Cancelled] Mini-map functions
this was never planned afaik
(Seemingly...) Endless bugs to squash.
yup.
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True Tremmers are content with 1.1.0 until 1.2.0 is done. The devs can release 1.2 whenever they want, I'm fine with 1.1.0 at the moment(and have been since 2006).
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The alien "weapons" that have already been posted here.
There are some new weapon models floating around, no idea what stage there at.
Alien inview weapon models are coming in 1.2
The human weapon upgrades won't. That would take too much time. Maybe 1.3.
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But they look so cool :(
Especially the shotgun.
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thank you
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What I would like to know is if any of the custom maps out there will be packaged with 1.2. Official word on which maps have "made the cut" would be nice, if not absolutely necessary :)
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[likely Cancelled] Mini-map functions
Whoa! That was just an idea I was playing with, hardly all that important. I'm not sure why people think that became a "TODO" for 1.2 (or at all).
I recall an interview a while back (May 2007?) that had something close and that is public. Thanks to an absurdly large browser history, here's the URL
http://www.jeuxlinux.fr/article_print-163.html
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[quote="kevvy; I know a guy named kevvy, he rides a bike and thinks its a car. there's small-town life for you"
(Seemingly...) Endless bugs to squash.
yup.
[/quote]
Moar alen classez tu plauy!?
[/spam]
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First of all, hi FooBar :D I missed you a bit
Secondly, much of what you said seemed reasonable until...
The community is floundering and stagnant. You are lost.
I can only say in response to this that you are wrong. It isn't, and we aren't. Tremulous' community has issues, but to be honest any group our size with our age distribution and interests often does. In terms of numbers at least, Tremulous is still going strong (http://tremulous.net/graphs/). I appreciate that a lot of people have felt left in the dark about Tremulous development, but frankly 1.1 is quite enough for me for the time being. I am in no rush, and nor should be anyone else, imo.
In another year when player counts have halved, then you may make dramatic statements about stagnation or direction, but right now there are really no problems here.
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Right now, seeing the 'leaked' picture/video/whatever directory containing the choppers and whatnot made me horny enough to think 1.2 is done by the end of the week.
Which is now...
WILL YOU DISSAPOINT ME, OR AM I TRULY A PROPHET?
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Hate to disappoint you, but.. no, scratch that. I don't really mind at all.
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yes think about all the time spent on making bots. If that time went to making 1.2 it would be out by now. Unfortunately people don't know what to work on so there time is spent on less important things like making bots follow you. In the long run a "road map" will make 1.2 come out a lot faster.
lol?
Right now, seeing the 'leaked' picture/video/whatever directory containing the choppers and whatnot made me horny enough to think 1.2 is done by the end of the week.
Which is now...
WILL YOU DISSAPOINT ME, OR AM I TRULY A PROPHET?
What leaked stuff? Most of it was published by the devs...
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would be nice to see current progress but its alright.
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How about a vague description of who "the devs" currently are, and shortlist of stuff they think they are shooting for? Just along the lines of So-and-So is currently trying to do such-and-such. Just maybe as a news item on the front page. So we know who to thank, and pray for. Or not...
I can see that no-one would want to promise too much too soon, but the fans like to have a small tidbit of refreshment every great once in a while. Humbly submitted, One Player.
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Right now, seeing the 'leaked' picture/video/whatever directory containing the choppers and whatnot made me horny enough to think 1.2 is done by the end of the week.
Which is now...
WILL YOU DISSAPOINT ME, OR AM I TRULY A PROPHET?
What leaked stuff? Most of it was published by the devs...
I said ''leaked''.
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I think you should sue Timbo and his band of vagabonds if they do not comply with your demands.
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I have to agree with FooBar, a public development road map will speed up the development process.
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I have to agree with FooBar, a public development road map will speed up the development process.
Care to back that up?
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I have to agree with FooBar, a public development road map will speed up the development process.
Care to back that up?
It will indeed slow it down, but those who can make necessary contributions can look and see 'Oh, hey! They need X for X! I can help!'. Not sure if this is what the devs want, as they have a private team, but no doubt it would be good for the process.
It will slow down the process, unless they get someone dedicated to report everything.
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Or people could just go on the bugzilla and fix all the bugs in there. I'm sure that would help a lot.
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If someone fixed most of the unsolved bugs in bugzilla in a short period of time, they would probably get invited to join the Dev team. Then, we only hear from them occasionally, one post every couple of days or so.
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It will slow down the process,
It may not speed anything up, but I really doubt it will slow it down.
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Dev time wasted writing it all = slow down.
Dev time is, sadly, very limited at the moment.
People who want to help and can, will. Lots of people have fixed things on bugzilla, and people like Lakitu make new things. Some things he has written for his QVM will make it to 1.2. The reason? He codes things that both work in a code sense, and work in a gameplay sense. When tards write broken and buggy copy&pasted code to make tyrants fly, why the hell would the devs want there help?
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Not to mention that if the next step on the roadmap were "Alphabetize function calls in foo.h", someone would be likely to hear a constant "You haven't done that yet? Why not, it's simple, here I'll do it for you, just get it done, c'mon you're holding things up, what's wrong with you, you suck..."
Roadmap could be good. But I'm 83.7% sure it won't change anything from the perspective of the developers.
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At least give us a general roadmap of major features, the stuff that one person couldn't do in a day or less.
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At least give us a general roadmap of major features, the stuff that one person couldn't do in a day or less.
i gave a rough list in the other thread...
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But your list isn't official, which is what everyone is asking for.
Also, I found proof of what you said was wrong in Dasprid's latest Tremradio.
The mini-map, they mentioned in a forum post a while ago, but it is likely lost to the annals of time...
EDIT: Found one so far...
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The minimap under development by Timbo is a much better idea, because it behaves just like it is supposed to. Everything within the players line of site at the start is on the minimap. As the player explores the map, more things show up. If the player finds something, they can tag it. The vents would not show up for any joe to find, as they require you to see into them and know what they are, so that would not be a problem.
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What gives what para says more weight than kev?
Kev writes code, para doesn't. I know which one I trust more.
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not to mention i idle in the right place at the right time:
18:16:11 @Timbo> Paradox: i've never planned or coded any minimap functionality
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At least give us a general roadmap of major features, the stuff that one person couldn't do in a day or less.
i gave a rough list in the other thread...
link me plz
i'm losing track of which of these 1.2 threads is the least obscure...
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At least give us a general roadmap of major features, the stuff that one person couldn't do in a day or less.
i gave a rough list in the other thread...
link me plz
i'm losing track of which of these 1.2 threads is the least obscure...
rough list:
-new huds
-new models for many things
-alien "weapons" in first person
-vsays
-balance changes
-probably a few things i forgot
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@kev: thx (I applaud your kind manner.)
P.S. So just who are "the devs" at this point, if you don't mind me asking?
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I'm especially interested about the art crew of the game, as this is the part i could help if needed.
Would be nice to have a neater interface than before.
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@kev: thx (I applaud your kind manner.)
P.S. So just who are "the devs" at this point, if you don't mind me asking?
1.1 devs + dasprid + tjw (or something)
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Thanks.