Tremulous Forum
Media => Mapping Center => Topic started by: sSopris on April 10, 2008, 04:05:15 pm
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I would like some elaboration on the trigger_multiple entity. In the wiki it says "The all purpose trigger." Well kudos for whoever can figure out the trigger from that but I cannot. Therefore I would highly appreciate some elaboration. To help you elaborate, what I need is an entity to detect if there is just one player in it or two...if there are two, they'd be on different teams. My first impressions of the trigger_multiple was that it could perform multiple triggers at once, such as trigger_class and trigger_equipment. Anyway, I appreciate the help I hope to get.
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If you read the description table, the answer is quite obvious :
target : the targetname of a target which the trigger will trigger.
targetname : a name of the trigger, so that it can be triggered by other triggers.
wait : a time in seconds to limit of how often the trigger can be triggered (not more than once a second, once 3 seconds etc.)
random : a random change in the above value.
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trigger multiple is the simplest trigger combined with the trigger texture from common. If any player enters it it triggers its targets within the constraints of the time limit. You are looking at deep mechanics. Someone did an entire paper on it but I don't have it at hand now. Supposedly you are trying an 'and' trigger.
Just watch here
http://quake3world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=36558
Probably won't take long.
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Are there any IF triggers? Like IF player has > 200 credits Then trigger?
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Ah yes, now that I see it it has the same problem as when i first tried some of its ideas in trem. Tremulous removed the shooter entities so we can't build the gates needed.
And amt, there are no credit triggers so no.
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The credit trigger was an example. I've seen item triggers, but i haven't gotten them to work.
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I am still working on a patch which increases the capabilities of the mappers to work with things, (Advanced Map Patch), if you want something to be implemented into it, request the feature in the thread (mods section). )
http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=7206.msg117520#msg117520
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Ahhh, thank you guys. So there are no and triggers or something? Like if this AND this then do this?
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Not until a shooter entity is implemented for crude works, and I'd much rather have real if,and,or,xor triggers because the crude way gets unwieldy quickly, just take a look at skOre's electronics manual.
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AMP patch does have AND implementation. (not the very usual one, but well)
Proper logical operations are in the works as well.
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I am still working on a patch which increases the capabilities of the mappers to work with things, (Advanced Map Patch), if you want something to be implemented into it, request the feature in the thread (mods section). )
http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=7206.msg117520#msg117520
I've read the thread in this forum, but i haven't understood much of it, since its full of jargon i can't understand. :P I like whats going on though, from what i understood.
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you need this : http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=7220.0 << thread.
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you need this : http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=7220.0 << thread.
Nice! The links take me to text files. What do I do with these?
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Patch is a source code, which is required due to GPL, you can ignore that unless you want to compile the qvm yourself.
definition file replaces the standard definition file of Radiant.
QVM is used when you setup a server. Your map will not run without the QVM and there are a few guides in the technical/server boards on how to create a server with one.
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and I'd much rather have real if,and,or,xor triggers
* Taiyo.uk wants these too.
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Taiyo wants everything other people have :P. Mainly pants because he seems o run out of them quickly for some reason ::)...
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Heh, nobody has these triggers yet - I don't think they're implemented. Many mappers have expressed interest in logic (AND/OR/XOR/NOT) triggers to implement more complex scripted gameplay, namely for objective-based maps.
...and the pants thing, that's Ingar's fault at the moment.
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Sadly, adding new triggers will not make people create better maps. Actually, it might make them focus even less on the construction of their map, because they have omg awesome trigger madness. As long as people have trouble creating compelling maps with the tools available, adding more functionality serves no purpose, yet.
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There are many ways of achieving the same result. Quantity proved to be the most effective one for the most of the times. You cannot expect a newbie mapper to make a decent map, but I am more than sure that most of the newbie mappers will start from some crazy trigger mess, to compensate their low skills by some novelty in the map. Widening their abilities will increase the amount of mappers and their willingness to create maps, and hence increase the amount of skilled mappers in the future.
I am in no doubt that you will be able to stand a few more newbie maps in the hopes that soon their authors will get the skills required. A good example of that will be brain and face.
Moreover, I am personally tired of the maps without tweaks. Ok, it can look good, play good, but after 500-5000 games you just repeat yourself, always, and just a new map takes 5-10 games to kill all the exitment you get from it. Yes, my attention span is THAT short, it should really take much shorter to get bored.
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Sadly, adding new triggers will not make people create better maps. Actually, it might make them focus even less on the construction of their map, because they have omg awesome trigger madness. As long as people have trouble creating compelling maps with the tools available, adding more functionality serves no purpose, yet.
It will expand the abilities of the experienced mappers to make interesting maps though. Merely focusing on what the lowest common denominator can do isn't always wise.
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Sadly, adding new triggers will not make people create better maps. Actually, it might make them focus even less on the construction of their map, because they have omg awesome trigger madness. As long as people have trouble creating compelling maps with the tools available, adding more functionality serves no purpose, yet.
It will expand the abilities of the experienced mappers to make interesting maps though. Merely focusing on what the lowest common denominator can do isn't always wise.
That doesn't take away the fear I have of even more shittier maps, because people will try and hide behind their fantastic trigger contraptions. Also, of those experienced mappers you talk about, only 1 has released a map which is both pretty and playable. All of the other maps created by experienced mappers, including my own, are not suitable to (for example) include in a possible next release of Tremulous. No fancy triggers ain't going to change that.
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Floor and wall maps are quite boring after a while (atcs, nexus, etc). With satisfactory interactivity, you can create much better maps, such as different ways to attack bases using teleports or target_pushes, etc.
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Floor and wall maps are quite boring after a while (atcs, nexus, etc). With satisfactory interactivity, you can create much better maps, such as different ways to attack bases using teleports or target_pushes, etc.
Why don't you first try to make a map that looks half as good as Nexus6 before calling them 'quite boring after a while'. As long as you fail at basic mapping, no 5000 new triggers are going to make your maps any better.
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Lara, read and possibly reply to my post.
Its not the matter of triggers really. it is the case of WHEN the newbies dare to release their maps. And taunting "release at least half decent Nexus-clone" is quite dissapointing, you are conservative, which really shows.
And having a newbie to play with triggers will get you the maps which will be using them to the full potential in the future, on the very least it will give him some ideas and experience on working with them. You are whining that the current triggers are not used to full potential, you are whining that newbies make a trigger mess. Sorry, how can you jump from newbie in triggers to super-leet-pro? If take a closer look, most of our current "top maps" are not using anything more complicated than a trigger - door.
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I'll say it again, triggers do not make a map, architecture does. If you need certain special triggers to make your map interesting, you should look at yourself and find out what you are doing wrong. If people still fail at making maps that look half as decent as ATCS and are not nearly as fun to play, no trigger will help them. Ever.
I'll not even mention the popularity of the few maps that do make use of triggers different than a door.
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We know most custom maps get avoided like hell unless they're what the community finds 'fun' maps. But mappers which make crap brushwork will make crap triggerwork, how's that any different in the amount. Triggers are in most cases harder to get working at all than brushwork anyway, so it might even reduce the amount of lousy maps.
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Any additional features added to the engine will be available to both the crap and the good mappers. I don't think that a fear of n00b maps is reason to deny good mappers potentially very useful features. A n00b mapper will produce n00b maps irrespective of the choice of triggers to spam.
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Why don't you first try to make a map that looks half as good as Nexus6 before calling them 'quite boring after a while'. As long as you fail at basic mapping, no 5000 new triggers are going to make your maps any better.
Without the target_pushes in push/rotcannon, i don't think it'd be half as fun or playable. It's a great map, with loads of servers playing it. And it uses triggers.
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I think what lava is worried about is that people who otherwise would be working on improving their brushwork could get instead caught up trying to make a "l33t" trigger mess. however, this should not stop pro mappers from having more tools with which to make their maps better.
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We know most custom maps get avoided like hell unless they're what the community finds 'fun' maps. But mappers which make crap brushwork will make crap triggerwork, how's that any different in the amount. Triggers are in most cases harder to get working at all than brushwork anyway, so it might even reduce the amount of lousy maps.
"But having more triggers will automagically make my boxmap awesome."
Why don't you first try to make a map that looks half as good as Nexus6 before calling them 'quite boring after a while'. As long as you fail at basic mapping, no 5000 new triggers are going to make your maps any better.
Without the target_pushes in push/rotcannon, i don't think it'd be half as fun or playable. It's a great map, with loads of servers playing it. And it uses triggers.
Rotcannon is a perfect example of the pure shit I envision.
I think what lava is worried about is that people who otherwise would be working on improving their brushwork could get instead caught up trying to make a "l33t" trigger mess. however, this should not stop pro mappers from having more tools with which to make their maps better.
Where are those pro mappers of yours? Where are their maps?
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We know most custom maps get avoided like hell unless they're what the community finds 'fun' maps. But mappers which make crap brushwork will make crap triggerwork, how's that any different in the amount. Triggers are in most cases harder to get working at all than brushwork anyway, so it might even reduce the amount of lousy maps.
"But having more triggers will automagically make my boxmap awesome."
"But having less surely means maps are better."
Really lava, you're better at discussions than this.
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We know most custom maps get avoided like hell unless they're what the community finds 'fun' maps. But mappers which make crap brushwork will make crap triggerwork, how's that any different in the amount. Triggers are in most cases harder to get working at all than brushwork anyway, so it might even reduce the amount of lousy maps.
"But having more triggers will automagically make my boxmap awesome."
"But having less surely means maps are better."
Really lava, you're better at discussions than this.
You misunderstand me, I meant to say that people will hide behind their triggers as an excuse for shitty brushwork.
"Who cares my map is a box, I have a dretchcannon."
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I'll hand you that point, but that map was created, even without these additional triggers. You are concerned that it will increase the amount of silly maps, and it might for a while, but in the long run the difference on that field is 0 while it could actually help in making some interesting gameflow for mappers a bit further along their experience curve.
Quantity just wouldn't change that much, and a map which is shitty now becoming even shittier does not, to me, seem to be your concern.
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I'll hand you that point, but that map was created, even without these additional triggers. You are concerned that it will increase the amount of silly maps, and it might for a while, but in the long run the difference on that field is 0 while it could actually help in making some interesting gameflow for mappers a bit further along their experience curve.
Quantity just wouldn't change that much, and a map which is shitty now becoming even shittier does not, to me, seem to be your concern.
My concern is, as I stated, that people will neglect brushwork quality in favor of trigger madness. While I may very well be wrong, I doubt it. Naturally :)
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The only ones who would do that would be the new guys. Older mappers know that too much complexity fucks projects up and the young ones, well they'll either learn or die off.
Points seem to be in agreement, just the way we approach it is different.
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The only ones who would do that would be the new guys. Older mappers know that too much complexity fucks projects up and the young ones, well they'll either learn or die off.
Points seem to be in agreement, just the way we approach it is different.
IR BETTAR! :>
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Soubok's pulse is a glaring example of an awesome map with fun triggers.
It had 5 main problems, in my opinion.
1. Map optimization and lines of sight. (The control room didn't help)
2. Map bugs, glitches, and other stuff like that. (Generators, pool room, grate-bugginess)
3. Some novelties that get old pretty quick. (Like the ENTIRE outdoors)
4. Steep learning curve. (How do I unlock doors from human base? I go where???)
5. Map balance issues. (Alien base, where to put it??? Humans in control room, other "Carney holes")
All these added up to a kinda fun map that no-one likes in rotation, with many people who downright hate it.
It could've been great...
But it settled for good...
All this aside, if someone like Ingar, Troy, or Supertanker (Even Overflow!!! (See: Seige)) decided they wanted to make a trigger-happy map, but couldn't, would you accept the blame? Noobs will continue to make horrible maps on their canvas, whether you give finger-paint or finest oil paint. In the digital domain, once invented and distributed by someone, oil costs nothing to produce, so you shouldn't force a master artist to use finger-paints.
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Amen.
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Soubok's Pulse is a pile of unplayable shit, and the perfect poster child to show why triggers do not make a map. It would have been a much better map without players being locked in some confined space for 20 minutes, while frantically begging teammates to open the goddamn door.
If people need all kinds of special triggers to make their map fun, they should look at their map and wonder why they need those triggers to make it fun. This doesn't mean that triggers will make a map suck, but they should never be the basis of your map. A good layout with neat brushwork is what's the basis of a map. As several 'fantastic' maps that utilize certain exoticed triggers have shown, a box map with an intricate trigger system is still a box map and therefore a failure.
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I'd love to hear your view on mission_one xD
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Soubok's Pulse is a pile of unplayable shit, and the perfect poster child to show why triggers do not make a map. It would have been a much better map without players being locked in some confined space for 20 minutes, while frantically begging teammates to open the goddamn door.
The only part where you are 100% trapped is the outdoors, covered by point 3. The lack of adequate routes around lockable doors would be covered by points 3 and 4. If only we had more examples of good uses of triggers... all we seem to have are trains (and lifts), doors, and cannons.
Pulse did do a lot of things innovative and right, as much as it got wrong.
1. Best elevators I've seen in a Trem map.
2. Lockable doors that can be accesed from 2 points (Door and control room)
3. A decent idea for an outdoor area that pretty much ended up a flop.
4. A grate & subfloor system that was neither preceded nor emulated.
5. Good brushwork that truly emulated the feel of a sci-fi instalation.
EDIT: Also, I think Lava hates innovation in general, seeing how much he hates anything by Apple or Google.
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Yes, making a broken, innovative map is always better than making a non-innovative playable map. Right?
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hey lava, would you mind showing us by exampe how to make a playable, innovative map? ;D jk i guess you already did with sokolov...
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Sokolov was a pretty map with nice brushwork, but the layout was bland (a simple loop) and gameplay somewhat broken. (Satgnu had a high aliens skew on it compared to on other maps)
ATCS3 was also pretty, but it had overdone brushwork for it's simplistic layout. It also was unfit for a Trem map, in my opinion, boring and rigged towards Humans (Second highest percentage human wins on satgnu of maps played more than 2 times).
I would rather have a broken innovative map than a broken boring map, no matter what quality is put into the brushwork and design.
I used satgnu stats because it is the only server Lava sees fit to play on.
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Both Sokolov and ATCS3 were testcases for my mapping skills, and both maps have never been promoted by me as being balanced or playable, just pretty looking, as was the initial intention. They were born purely out of frustration with people proudly releasing their boxmaps and expecting praise, and all the cheap ATCS clones that are/were about. I merely tried to show that you dont have to use the EQ2 texture set and ATCS brushwork to make a map. I have succeeded too, since quite some mappers have been doing different things, and certainly Sokolov's looks have inspired and motivated people to do better than me, which isn't exactly hard either. ;)
I don't care for innovation if it stands in the way of the gameplay/gameflow. Novelty maps usually have a short lifespan, inherent to their 'gimmick-ness', while maps that are conservative usually last a lot longer. Again, there is nothing wrong about experimenting with triggers and all the fancy stuff, but if the basics of building a good map are ignored, you are left with crap. There is no excuse, not even 5000 triggers, to release a boxmap with shitty texturing and bland brushwork. It does not pay hommage to the awesome capabilities of the Quake3 engine, as well as the artwork created by the various 2d and 3d artists out there.
PS:
I used satgnu stats because it is the only server Lava sees fit to play on.
All your wild assumptions about me are starting to get a tad boring. You have absolutely no idea on which servers I play, so stop acting like you have any idea just to make yourself look more interesting, thank you.
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Both Sokolov and ATCS3 were testcases for my mapping skills, and both maps have never been promoted by me as being balanced or playable, just pretty looking, as was the initial intention. They were born purely out of frustration with people proudly releasing their boxmaps and expecting praise, and all the cheap ATCS clones that are/were about. I merely tried to show that you dont have to use the EQ2 texture set and ATCS brushwork to make a map. I have succeeded too, since quite some mappers have been doing different things, and certainly Sokolov's looks have inspired and motivated people to do better than me, which isn't exactly hard either. ;)
But you cannot say it was purely sokolov's presence which made those maps exist. Most developing mappers move away from those 2 (EQ2 and ATCS) on their own. Look at yourface and nosbrain, they're still not making the most beautiful maps but they've moved away from their silly starting roots and have tried doing better and are improving.
I don't care for innovation if it stands in the way of the gameplay/gameflow. Novelty maps usually have a short lifespan, inherent to their 'gimmick-ness', while maps that are conservative usually last a lot longer. Again, there is nothing wrong about experimenting with triggers and all the fancy stuff, but if the basics of building a good map are ignored, you are left with crap.
I agree that the outdoors in pulse was not that necessary in its current inception, but the availability of a lockable door, which is in result an ingame turnpoint for gameflow is certainly innovative and a possible useful addition to mapping. This doesn't mean he did it exactly right but it was playable. The same with his elevators, they are, as said, the best elevators to date. Imagine Meep with the pulse elevator setup, that would have added to meep. The same with meep's activated teleporter. The key point is to not let the amount of gimmicks get out of hand. Pulse had the luck of having a diversified amount of gimmicks so it wasn't that noticable, but it did suffer from it. Imo Pulse with at the location of the outdoors an extended facility would have been an excellently playable and fun map for the larger playerbase of certain servers.
There is no excuse, not even 5000 triggers, to release a boxmap with shitty texturing and bland brushwork. It does not pay hommage to the awesome capabilities of the Quake3 engine, as well as the artwork created by the various 2d and 3d artists out there.
Neither does the nonexistence of entirely possible triggers in the Quake 3.
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All your wild assumptions about me are starting to get a tad boring. You have absolutely no idea on which servers I play, so stop acting like you have any idea just to make yourself look more interesting, thank you.
I apologize for my assumtions, all I had to go on was two things. The fact that I have never seen you on any other server but Satgnu under the name "Lava Croft", and your post under the favorite five servers topic.
Who needs a top-5 when you have SatGNU (http://satgnu.net/)?
If you do play games on other servers, would you mind telling me a couple of them?
I would love to know if any servers have Lava's stamp of approval.
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@Survivor: Of course not, but it was one of the few maps that showed that you could do things differently, which was my point. I never stated it as such either, so stop taking it out of context.
On another note, where is your map?
I'll say it again, since Survivor seems to be a tad slow with this: If you cannot even make compelling maps with the basic tools you already have, no trigger is going to make it any better.
@techhead: I play on random servers and sometimes PureTremulous. The random servers are any European server that doesn't use weird gamebreaking balance changing patches.
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Floor and wall maps are quite boring after a while (atcs, nexus, etc). With satisfactory interactivity, you can create much better maps, such as different ways to attack bases using teleports or target_pushes, etc.
How is nexus6 boring? It's on of the best stock-maps (karith and arachnid2)... And a lot better than most of the user made ones.
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Uh... Well, i can't really say it is, but i personally find it a bit boring gameplay-wise. And the lack of fps.
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Gameplay-wise it's only boring if hardly ever a certain side wins. And what the hell does lack of fps mean, what level of fps are we talking about then. Because anything >30 is reasonably playable and anything >60 should be absolutely fine.
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Nexus 6 has the second lowest game-play FPS of default maps (Uncreation is worst), and certain base setups make it worse. (Aliens default, Humans elbow room between top of pipe-room and stairwell). Many people who have their graphics settings laid out so that they have good FPS on most maps and plenty of eye-candy to enjoy will find their FPS drop below the playable threshold, not too mention choppy from FPS down-spikes.