Tremulous Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Amanieu on August 13, 2008, 07:41:12 pm
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Many people use the r_lightmap cvar to get a better visibility. Here are 2 screenshots, one has r_lightmap off and the other has it on:
http://azrael07.org/r_lightmap_0.jpg
http://azrael07.org/r_lightmap_1.jpg
Should this cvar be cheat-protected?
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Yes.
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Isn't this feature supposed to help you run faster?
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Isn't this feature supposed to help you run faster?
AFAIK, it has no effect at all, and is just for debugging maps. As such, I vote cheat-protect.
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make it as an option for battlesuits or hs3 helmets. 3d scan view. :-)
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If you're going to lock lightmap, might as well lock r_gamma, and r_overBrightBits as well.
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r_lightmap can be used for cheating, but so can a lot of things. Like googles said, if you're going to lock that, you might as well lock the rest.
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That's totally different.
lightmap has no use beyond debugging a map. Gamma is needed due to the massive differences between screens.
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If you're going to lock lightmap, might as well lock r_gamma, and r_overBrightBits as well.
or showing weapon 1/0... such an abuse of getting more sight. however, i would forget about what kind of weapon i am actually using instantly...
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My aim is MUCH better with cg_drawgun 0, but I can't seem to get the hang of shotty like that. Weird, eh?
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it's because it's all about the hang of it.
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I would be more worried about r_fullbright.
Looks like shit, but you can see everything.
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it gives you very little advantage plus it makes everything look like crap i would rather have the maps look descent then see a dretch better.
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If you're going to lock lightmap, might as well lock r_gamma, and r_overBrightBits as well.
Yeah, if you had the gamma at what most players set it at, I think the dretch would be more visible than with r_lightmap 1, cause c'mon, show me someone who plays nexus with r_gamma 1.
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If you're going to lock lightmap, might as well lock r_gamma, and r_overBrightBits as well.
Yeah, if you had the gamma at what most players set it at, I think the dretch would be more visible than with r_lightmap 1, cause c'mon, show me someone who plays nexus with r_gamma 1.
I play all maps with r_gamma 1. It all depends on your monitor.
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(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii237/seeeker/trem/randomstuff/lightmaphihi.gif)
ohi!
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Might as well lock monitor brightness controls ;-p
@Seeeker
Advanced Noobs don't fall for the hiding dretch anyways.
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Well, it should keep as it is right now, optional, if someone can, everyone can so is your choise if you want to have r_lightmap 1 or not.
I vote that it shoulnt be cheat protected because isnt a cheat, is more like more brightness for crappy PCs and a helpful tool for my MD :P
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no, leave r_lightmap.
and googles right if you lock up r_lightmap
might as well get rid of weapons bindings and ev binding cuz they give you advantages as well.
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r_lightmap 1 has nothing to do with weapon binds. It should be cheat protected, just like cg_shadows 2 and cg_shadows 3.
Anyone saying it should not be cheat protected is probably someone who plays with r_lightmap 1, or someone who just found out he can do something else than r_gamma 5.
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If you're going to lock lightmap, might as well lock r_gamma, and r_overBrightBits as well.
and don't forget r_picmip!
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I don't think r_lightmap should be a forum poll!
Either it is cheat protected, or it's not cheat protected.
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The poll is like going to a bar asking signatures for a petition to ban alcohol xD
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Just a note, vertex illumenation completely changes the map lightning, in some cases to such extent that what is normally dark is actually nearlly fullbright. (but it does give you a nice fps gain)
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Just a note, vertex illumenation completely changes the map lightning, in some cases to such extent that what is normally dark is actually nearlly fullbright. (but it does give you a nice fps gain)
On the other hand, areas that are mildy dark with lightmaps, end up being pitchblack with vertex lighting.
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it is a cheat just like r_fullbright and really should be locked
i dont use if for the fact that it does in some maps give an unfair advantage.
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r_lightmap was not cheat protected since the first release (as it is not in the quake3 client i think) so people started to mess around with config and started using it (myself included).
If you think it is a sort of a cheat then we have been all potential cheaters (but nobody really cared about it untill the advent of real wallhacks or aimbots). In my opinion there is no reson to call someone a cheater because he took full advantage of the cvars the developers let him use (r_whatever).
If you think it might give someone too much an advantage, it's pointless to disable it in custom clients since in the "official" one you can still use it; you would only scare away from your client people who actually use r_whatever cvars (yes, i am included, and there are plenty of others).
I don't really believe people who shout that they never used/use it in game, since:
1) after all we are not so honest, expecially behind a monitor on the internet
2) i can't check in any way if you are actually saying the truth or you are making fun of me :D
It's ok to discuss about it being a cheat or not, but untill developers decide to enable/disable it in tremulous 1.2 i'll stick with r_lightmap enabled.
Guess what? if devs decide to disable it in next release, i think we will soon see a custom client with it enabled ;) ;D
EDIT: typo.
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I think to have equal chances for all players, all maps should be changed so that they only have plain white textures. That would reduze the download size of the maps too.
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This should not be cheat protected.
I used to play on a crappy PC, and needed low quality settings to run Trem smoothly. For some reason, with low quality I couldn't see at all in some areas (the example I remember the most is the window room in niveus, up in the ceiling it was pitch black.)
Now I play on high quality all the time, and I can see anywhere just fine, but for the players with crappy comps, I say leave it available.
As for seeker's pic: the gamma in the first half of that .gif is a lot lower than what I play with, and there's no way a dretch could hide there unnoticed with my (r_lightmap 0) settings.
When I was recording demos they turned out dark. I tried setting r_gamma higher but I believe it is capped at 3. Like I said I have no problems with visibility now, and I've never been a user of lightmap so I'd just like to represent at least one person who doesn't use it, but thinks it is okay to use it.
There may be few similarities between this and binds, but this is a purely visual aid. In fact, it reminds me alot of the alien crosshair debate we all had not so long ago. That too, is a purely visual, yet non-standard aid in gameplay.
Tl;dr version: I'm not going to hide in a place that isn't covered by a wall or some other obstacle, are you guys? If so: you're retarded. If not: this "cheat" really doesn't hurt you at all, so try not to be upset about what others may gain from it.
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I think to have equal chances for all players, all maps should be changed so that they only have plain white textures. That would reduze the download size of the maps too.
In addition to that, do not compile any lighting information at all, that will make the mappers so happy! No more 1-hour compiles, unless your map sucks!
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And for the rest of you, the images shown here are half the brightness they should be at. When taking a screen shot ingame, it doesn't consider the SDL gamma, therefore, the produced picture is much much darker.
(btw not sure what to call it, i just call it SDL gamma)
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Guess what? if devs decide to disable it in next release, i think we will soon see a custom client with it enabled
Next release? O.O
Anyone saying it should not be cheat protected is probably someone who plays with r_lightmap 1, or someone who just found out he can do something else than r_gamma 5.
r_gamma is capped to 3 :)
@topic
No, just make it not display models skins. If its noly for debugging, why it should?
Btw. playing with no antialias gives you an advantage too, damn old video cards
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Guess what? if devs decide to disable it in next release, i think we will soon see a custom client with it enabled
And that would be cheating, same as an aimbot.
Btw. playing with no antialias gives you an advantage too, damn old video cards
How?
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This reminds me, you can never truly stop cheating, and this goes double for open source games.
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You can never truly stop someone from killing you, doesn't mean you shouldn't try.
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I think to have equal chances for all players, all maps should be changed so that they only have plain white textures. That would reduze the download size of the maps too.
In addition to that, do not compile any lighting information at all, that will make the mappers so happy! No more 1-hour compiles, unless your map sucks!
And then make all models white too!
Guess what? if devs decide to disable it in next release, i think we will soon see a custom client with it enabled
And that would be cheating, same as an aimbot wallhax.
fixt, it's just a visual cheat.
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I fail to see the distinction. Both are the end user taking significant steps to overcome technical barriers to gain an unfair advantage.
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Guess what? if devs decide to disable it in next release, i think we will soon see a custom client with it enabled
And that would be cheating, same as an aimbot wallhax.
fixt, it's just a visual cheat.
wallhax is not just a visual cheat, it is a cheat. I hope you didn't expose yerself there unwillingly.
But tremulous is about dodging, moving, aiming, building bases, and teamwork. It is not, as I perceive it, a game for hiding in the dark.
(Maybe that goes against the intention of some custom maps out there, but atleast it is like that for the stock maps)
[EDIT] Personally I don't think that r_lightmap is a cheat, I just see it as adding more contrast to the graphics. For some the ambient is part
of why they play the game, for others it is all about playing it. Personally I don't use r_lightmap. But i have drawgun disabled, simply because I see
no use for it. Here I'd say its all about preference again. And standardizing the optics is just no option, seeing all the differences in gfx cards and
monitors in use. Everybody sees things differently already with default settings.
So why not let everybody choose the graphic settings that they think is best for their game. The chances are that the result is fairer than forcing people
to play with default settings. And I say thats fairer than to send everybody out to buy better gear.
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If people need darkness to hide they should play a creepy horror shooter/adventure game. Tremulous is more about competitive play then about shock effects.
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Why you all debating about old videocards? I tryed r_lightmap and that give to me 0 FPS more.
And I tryed turn off drawgun, but with that I don't see when I finished reloading...
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Why you all debating about old videocards? I tryed r_lightmap and that give to me 0 FPS more.
And I tryed turn off drawgun, but with that I don't see when I finished reloading...
Unless your video card is incredibly old (or some integrated crap) but your processor is new, this game is CPU-bound and almost nothing in r_ will affect your FPS.
Using the cvar in 1.1 is obviously not a cheat. I don't like it and I don't do it, but I don't blame anyone for playing the game how it is.
Yes, it should be cheat-protected for 1.2. Other mentioned r_cvars which have legit uses outside devmap and can improve things for GPU-bound people are debatable, but any cvar that can give an advantage and does NOT have a legit use should go. This is true for r_lightmap.
Something else that you guys are forgetting with many of those other cvars is that they require a vid_restart to switch back and forth, so if you want to gain an advantage you have to either leave them on all the time (which looks ugly as hell) or momentarily freeze and be shot at while you toggle. That disadvantage should punish people for doing it pretty sufficiently. What makes r_lightmap so troubling is that you can flick it on and off instantly with a bind without reprecussions (and also, as I already said, it has no legit use outside devmap).
Yes, people could make "unofficial clients" with that restriction removed, but then they are not "unofficial" clients but cheat clients and would be banned from here just the same as the others.
[edit] No, it is not the responsibility of people distributing legit, non-cheat clients to cheat-protect things that the official clients do not.
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Yes, people could make "unofficial clients" with that restriction removed, but then they are not "unofficial" clients but cheat clients and would be banned from here just the same as the others.
How would you detect it? Most of the known cheats are detectable when you observe a player and have an eye for it. The cvars we are talking about here are not really detectable.
It is only gentleman like to not use it, but it will be hard to enforce. See discussion about alien crosshair.
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Same goes for wall hax, or a good aimbotter.
See above comment about why you should try anyway.
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Let's not forget to make cg_shadows 2 and cg_shadows 3 cheat-protected cvars too!
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Let's not forget to make cg_shadows 2 and cg_shadows 3 cheat-protected cvars too!
Ok: Why?
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Never heard of this command until now, but I wouldn't ever use it. Makes the game look like shit.
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What makes r_lightmap so troubling is that you can flick it on and off instantly with a bind without reprecussions -snip-
So, Tremulous does have a flashlight.
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r_lightmap 1 has nothing to do with weapon binds. It should be cheat protected, just like cg_shadows 2 and cg_shadows 3.
Anyone saying it should not be cheat protected is probably someone who plays with r_lightmap 1, or someone who just found out he can do something else than r_gamma 5.
Look you blind bat r_lightmap isnt a cheat its been around for along time now and up until recently it hasnt been a problem, And the comparison between it and weapons binds was to state how dumb it would be to get rid of it.
r-lightmap is less of an advantage than weapon binds. "So i say it again get rid of r_lightmap, might as well get rid of weapon binding."
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The issue isn't how useful it is, every one can see that for them selves.
The issue is that there is no legitimate use for it, so however small its use in cheating is, the maths stills says we should limit its use.
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If Trem is intended to have a flashlight then it should have a flashlight, not an obscure tool for testing maps that can be used hackishly as such. As of now, Trem isn't intended to have a flashlight.
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If Trem is intended to have a flashlight then it should have a flashlight, not an obscure tool for testing maps that can be used hackishly as such. As of now, Trem isn't intended to have a flashlight.
Cheat protect gamma settings then...
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I remember reading somewhere that gamma is used to adjust video brightness for demos and things like that as well in order to adjust for the variety of "computer hardware" our there that differs widely. I'm not really a computer techie, but that's what my understanding of what gamma was used for.
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It can also be used to "lighten" things up. Meaning:
You won't miss the dretch sitting on the pipe above you when your gamma is turned up high enough together with an agressive brightness setting on your screen. r_lightmap 1 just looks uglier. That's all.
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Ah, clarification is always good. Never hurts. Thank Bissig!
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If Trem is intended to have a flashlight then it should have a flashlight, not an obscure tool for testing maps that can be used hackishly as such. As of now, Trem isn't intended to have a flashlight.
Cheat protect gamma settings then...
Yes, already done. It's capped at 3.
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Well, in some maps its so bright, you cant bare it, and it raises your FPS.
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Gamma is required to be non-cheat protected because gamma settings are different for every monitor's brightness(and video adapter's brightness). I have to use r_gamma 1.6 on my desktop to achieve any kind of visibility. On my laptop, I have to use 1.2. It is impossible to have a standard value for this because it would be unfair to players with less bright monitors.
Other games with PunkBuster use a cheat protected range for cg_fov, usually a minimum of 60, and a maximum of 120. Any more than that and you're seeing more than you're allowed. Try enabling cheats on a local game of Quake3 or Wolf:ET and you can set cg_fov to 360, giving you complete visibility in all angles.
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about that. I've been searching for cg_muzzleFlash or cg_weaponFLash and I didn't find it. Does it exist under a different name?
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What makes r_lightmap so troubling is that you can flick it on and off instantly with a bind without reprecussions -snip-
So, Tremulous does have a flashlight.
TremulousFlashlight (http://networkofdoom.net/~bishop3space/Tremulous/Base/flashlight.cfg)
Im guessing this is how r_lightmap is not suppose to be used,if so i can see how it can be cheap i change my old post and agree with lava.
It is cheap if you bind it like above,during a in game test i was toggling it on and off i felt a huge advantage even with gamma all the way up i still had a advantage. It was eliminating all other distractions ect. and then being able to switch back with a key was to good although i would have never thought about binding it like that if i did not read the above quote anyways BAN IT.
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Try enabling cheats on a local game of Quake3 or Wolf:ET and you can set cg_fov to 360, giving you complete visibility in all angles.
Are you sure? I was under the impression that the algorithm's distortion of your view approached infinity as your fov approached 180.
...about the subject in question, it really depends on whether you subscribe to 'innocent until proven guilty' or vice versa with regards to clients and client settings. Personally I'm of the belief that it really doesn't make much of a difference, but if some people think it does I've similarly no problem with protecting it.
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Are you sure? I was under the impression that the algorithm's distortion of your view approached infinity as your fov approached 180.
In general, yes - but there are some cool things you can do such as:
http://strlen.com/gfxengine/fisheyequake/index.html