Is r_lightmap a cheat?

[googles]

And for the rest of you, the images shown here are half the brightness they should be at. When taking a screen shot ingame, it doesn't consider the SDL gamma, therefore, the produced picture is much much darker.

(btw not sure what to call it, i just call it SDL gamma)

[Asvarox]

Guess what? if devs decide to disable it in next release, i think we will soon see a custom client with it enabled

Next release? O.O

Anyone saying it should not be cheat protected is probably someone who plays with r_lightmap 1, or someone who just found out he can do something else than r_gamma 5.

r_gamma is capped to 3

@topic
No, just make it not display models skins. If its noly for debugging, why it should?

Btw. playing with no antialias gives you an advantage too, damn old video cards

[David]

Guess what? if devs decide to disable it in next release, i think we will soon see a custom client with it enabled

And that would be cheating, same as an aimbot.

Btw. playing with no antialias gives you an advantage too, damn old video cards

How?

[googles]

This reminds me, you can never truly stop cheating, and this goes double for open source games.

[David]

You can never truly stop someone from killing you, doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

[UniqPhoeniX]

I think to have equal chances for all players, all maps should be changed so that they only have plain white textures. That would reduze the download size of the maps too.

In addition to that, do not compile any lighting information at all, that will make the mappers so happy! No more 1-hour compiles, unless your map sucks!

And then make all models white too!

Guess what? if devs decide to disable it in next release, i think we will soon see a custom client with it enabled

And that would be cheating, same as an aimbot wallhax.

fixt, it's just a visual cheat.

[David]

I fail to see the distinction.  Both are the end user taking significant steps to overcome technical barriers to gain an unfair advantage.

[Eeeew Spiders]

Guess what? if devs decide to disable it in next release, i think we will soon see a custom client with it enabled

And that would be cheating, same as an aimbot wallhax.

fixt, it's just a visual cheat.

wallhax is not just a visual cheat, it is a cheat. I hope you didn't expose yerself there unwillingly.
But tremulous is about dodging, moving, aiming, building bases, and teamwork. It is not, as I perceive it, a game for hiding in the dark.

(Maybe that goes against the intention of some custom maps out there, but atleast it is like that for the stock maps)

[EDIT] Personally I don't think that r_lightmap is a cheat, I just see it as adding more contrast to the graphics. For some the ambient is part
of why they play the game, for others it is all about playing it. Personally I don't use r_lightmap. But i have drawgun disabled, simply because I see
no use for it. Here I'd say its all about preference again. And standardizing the optics is just no option, seeing all the differences in gfx cards and
monitors in use. Everybody sees things differently already with default settings.
So why not let everybody choose the graphic settings that they think is best for their game. The chances are that the result is fairer than forcing people
to play with default settings. And I say thats fairer than to send everybody out to buy better gear.

[Bissig]

If people need darkness to hide they should play a creepy horror shooter/adventure game. Tremulous is more about competitive play then about shock effects.

[rotacak]

Why you all debating about old videocards? I tryed r_lightmap and that give to me 0 FPS more.

And I tryed turn off drawgun, but with that I don't see when I finished reloading...

[Lakitu7]

Why you all debating about old videocards? I tryed r_lightmap and that give to me 0 FPS more.

And I tryed turn off drawgun, but with that I don't see when I finished reloading...

Unless your video card is incredibly old (or some integrated crap) but your processor is new, this game is CPU-bound and almost nothing in r_ will affect your FPS.

Using the cvar in 1.1 is obviously not a cheat. I don't like it and I don't do it, but I don't blame anyone for playing the game how it is.

Yes, it should be cheat-protected for 1.2. Other mentioned r_cvars which have legit uses outside devmap and can improve things for GPU-bound people are debatable, but any cvar that can give an advantage and does NOT have a legit use should go. This is true for r_lightmap.

Something else that you guys are forgetting with many of those other cvars is that they require a vid_restart to switch back and forth, so if you want to gain an advantage you have to either leave them on all the time (which looks ugly as hell) or momentarily freeze and be shot at while you toggle. That disadvantage should punish people for doing it pretty sufficiently. What makes r_lightmap so troubling is that you can flick it on and off instantly with a bind without reprecussions (and also, as I already said, it has no legit use outside devmap).

Yes, people could make "unofficial clients" with that restriction removed, but then they are not "unofficial" clients but cheat clients and would be banned from here just the same as the others.

[edit] No, it is not the responsibility of people distributing legit, non-cheat clients to cheat-protect things that the official clients do not.

[Eeeew Spiders]

Yes, people could make "unofficial clients" with that restriction removed, but then they are not "unofficial" clients but cheat clients and would be banned from here just the same as the others.

How would you detect it? Most of the known cheats are detectable when you observe a player and have an eye for it. The cvars we are talking about here are not really detectable.
It is only gentleman like to not use it, but it will be hard to enforce. See discussion about alien crosshair.

[David]

Same goes for wall hax, or a good aimbotter.
See above comment about why you should try anyway.

[Lava Croft]

Let's not forget to make cg_shadows 2 and cg_shadows 3 cheat-protected cvars too!

[rotacak]

Let's not forget to make cg_shadows 2 and cg_shadows 3 cheat-protected cvars too!

Ok: Why?

[St. Vrayne]

Never heard of this command until now, but I wouldn't ever use it.  Makes the game look like shit.

[player1]

What makes r_lightmap so troubling is that you can flick it on and off instantly with a bind without reprecussions -snip-

So, Tremulous does have a flashlight.

[Volt]

r_lightmap 1 has nothing to do with weapon binds. It should be cheat protected, just like cg_shadows 2 and cg_shadows 3.

Anyone saying it should not be cheat protected is probably someone who plays with r_lightmap 1, or someone who just found out he can do something else than r_gamma 5.

Look you blind bat r_lightmap isnt a cheat its been around for along time now and up until recently it hasnt been a problem, And the comparison between it and weapons binds was to state how dumb it would be to get rid of it.

r-lightmap is less of an advantage than weapon binds. "So i say it again get rid of r_lightmap, might as well get rid of weapon binding."

[David]

The issue isn't how useful it is, every one can see that for them selves.
The issue is that there is no legitimate use for it, so however small its use in cheating is, the maths stills says we should limit its use.

[Lakitu7]

If Trem is intended to have a flashlight then it should have a flashlight, not an obscure tool for testing maps that can be used hackishly as such. As of now, Trem isn't intended to have a flashlight.

[Bissig]

If Trem is intended to have a flashlight then it should have a flashlight, not an obscure tool for testing maps that can be used hackishly as such. As of now, Trem isn't intended to have a flashlight.

Cheat protect gamma settings then...

[St. Vrayne]

I remember reading somewhere that gamma is used to adjust video brightness for demos and things like that as well in order to adjust for the variety of "computer hardware" our there that differs widely.  I'm not really a computer techie, but that's what my understanding of what gamma was used for.

[Bissig]

It can also be used to "lighten" things up. Meaning:

You won't miss the dretch sitting on the pipe above you when your gamma is turned up high enough together with an agressive brightness setting on your screen. r_lightmap 1 just looks uglier. That's all.

[St. Vrayne]

Ah, clarification is always good.  Never hurts.  Thank Bissig!

[Lakitu7]

If Trem is intended to have a flashlight then it should have a flashlight, not an obscure tool for testing maps that can be used hackishly as such. As of now, Trem isn't intended to have a flashlight.

Cheat protect gamma settings then...

Yes, already done. It's capped at 3.

[Zero]

Well, in some maps its so bright, you cant bare it, and it raises your FPS.

[Odin]

Gamma is required to be non-cheat protected because gamma settings are different for every monitor's brightness(and video adapter's brightness). I have to use r_gamma 1.6 on my desktop to achieve any kind of visibility. On my laptop, I have to use 1.2. It is impossible to have a standard value for this because it would be unfair to players with less bright monitors.

Other games with PunkBuster use a cheat protected range for cg_fov, usually a minimum of 60, and a maximum of 120. Any more than that and you're seeing more than you're allowed. Try enabling cheats on a local game of Quake3 or Wolf:ET and you can set cg_fov to 360, giving you complete visibility in all angles.

[jal]

about that. I've been searching for cg_muzzleFlash or cg_weaponFLash and I didn't find it. Does it exist under a different name?

[Volt]

What makes r_lightmap so troubling is that you can flick it on and off instantly with a bind without reprecussions -snip-

So, Tremulous does have a flashlight.

TremulousFlashlight

Im guessing this is how r_lightmap is not suppose to be used,if so i can see how it can be cheap i change my old post and agree with lava.
It is cheap if you bind it like above,during a in game test  i was toggling it on and off i felt a huge advantage even with gamma all the way up i still had a advantage. It was eliminating all other distractions ect. and then being able to switch back with a key was to good although i would have never thought about binding it like that if i did not read the above quote anyways BAN IT.

[benmachine]

Try enabling cheats on a local game of Quake3 or Wolf:ET and you can set cg_fov to 360, giving you complete visibility in all angles.

Are you sure? I was under the impression that the algorithm's distortion of your view approached infinity as your fov approached 180.

...about the subject in question, it really depends on whether you subscribe to 'innocent until proven guilty' or vice versa with regards to clients and client settings. Personally I'm of the belief that it really doesn't make much of a difference, but if some people think it does I've similarly no problem with protecting it.