Tremulous Forum
Mods => Mod Releases => Gameplay Changing => Topic started by: Amanieu on September 13, 2008, 04:13:30 pm
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We believe that pure check is bad. Maybe you haven't already noticed that. We have.
- Maybe you have seen iFrancois's FunPack. All it did was change the colors of some textures in the game. The result was pretty and ... fun. It does not give any advantage in the game. You can only enjoy these new graphics on non-pure servers.
- Maybe you remember Kangounator's updated qvms. All he did was take the latest cgame and ui qvms, and then backport them to make them work on 1.1 servers. But because of sv_pure, only people with a hacked client or playing on one of the few non-pure server will be able to enjoy a performance and functionality boost.
- Maybe you aren't a native english speaker. Have you never wanted to have a translation of the game to your native language? Well, too bad. 90% of all servers have sv_pure on. It's english or nothing.
- We were temporarily banned from this forum for offering a hacked pk3. All this pk3 did was allowing people to use accented characters while chatting. We removed the hack, so only non-pure servers will be able to have accented characters.
- Have you ever heard of XReal? XReal is an improvement of the Quake 3 engine (which Tremulous is based on) with a completely rewritten renderer which is designed to be comparable to recent commercial games. We are currently working on porting that renderer to Tremfusion. Here are a few screenshots of what it could look like: http://xreal.sourceforge.net/xrealwiki/ScreenShots There is just one problem: Maps will need to be recompiled and shaders will need to be updated. We have started working on that, but... these won't be usable on all servers with sv_pure enabled.
Now, people are telling me that sv_pure prevents cheating. Let's see what it allows... Oh, wait, I'm risking a ban by talking about the danger of these cheats. Therefore, we shall just stay in ignorance and I won't be able to give any arguments for sv_pure concerning cheats. Let's just say that it does allow certain cheats.
In order to get these cheats, you need to get a pk3 file, which needs to be downloaded on some obscure website. Now, how do you get a client which automatically bypasses sv_pure? You just go to some obscure website and download the hacked client. Anyone wanting to cheat would of course prefer the hacked client, with aimbot and a lot of little bonuses, to just a pk3 with cheats in them.
As you can see, sv_pure does more to prevent users from customizing and extending the game then to prevent people from cheating.
Now some people have told me that there is another reason for the use of sv_pure: Many players have a very cluttered base folder with a lot of downloaded pk3s. Some of these pk3s can completely break the game. sv_pure is therefore a way to prevent these pk3s from being loaded (They won't be loaded because they aren't on the server's "allowed" list). I know this is an important problem because when I disabled sv_pure on my server, half of the players were reporting having problems.
We have thought about this problem, and have found a way to keep sv_pure's "shield" effect while getting rid of it's "lock" effect.
Tremfusion will still send the list of allowed pk3s like normal sv_pure. Only the list will be interpreted by the client as a list of "recommended" pk3s, to which the client can add its own pk3s by simply changing the fs_extrapaks cvar to include the names of the pk3s to be added.
Keep this in mind as Tremfusion will continue to grow and start proposing significant graphical improvements, players will surely prefer severs where they will be able to take advantage of these enhancements.
And... if you are one of those people who think Tremfusion has no future... just wait and see ;)
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Why exactly are you advertising something which you've admitted is not Tremulous, plans to not keep compatibility with Tremulous, and has a laundry list of things which you've "fixed" because they're "broken" in Tremulous, on the Tremulous forums?
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The point of that post was to provide feedback on sv_pure, not advertising Tremfusion.
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Then there's some stuff you could delete from the post, since it's irrelevant:
We have thought about this problem, and have found a way to keep sv_pure's "shield" effect while getting rid of it's "lock" effect.
From that line, all the way to the end. Oh, and the subject too.
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"Feedback" my ass.
* Any server that wishes to allow the use of the funpack can place it in their base directory. Nobody needs to turn off sv_pure for that.
* Puretrem has been allowing the use of updated vms for the past few months while running sv_pure 1. Try again.
* French servers can run French pk3s.
* Get the changes into SVN Tremulous where they belong.
* Oh great, I can't wait to get 3 fps in Tremulous too!!!
All of these things can be done within sv_pure. Server owners have a right to make the rules on their servers and sv_pure is part of that. You can't do these things on pure servers right now? Apparently the people who own and pay for the servers on which you play for free have chosen not to allow you to. Convince them to add the pk3s you'd like to be allowed to use. If they're as not-hax as you claim then this should be no problem.
This just boils down to:
Amanieu is too lazy/ignorant to do things properly and would rather spread propaganda because it's easier for him and more conducive to his goals of spamming tremfusion links everywhere. Of course, basically all of Tremfusion boils down to "Amanieu's crappy ideas got rejected from other tremulous projects becaucse they are crappy, so he goes and starts a fork so that somone might pay attention to him" so it's really no change from the norm.
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Pure check is bad. Maybe you haven't already noticed it. We have.
Pure check is good. Maybe you don't like it, but I do.
Maybe you have seen iFrancois's FunPack. All it did was change the colors of some textures in the game. The result was pretty and ... fun. It does not give any advantage in the game. You can only enjoy these new graphics on non-pure servers.
A dretch is dark, and can hide quite well in pipes etc on some maps. A red and yellow dretch is a lot easier to see, and cheating.
Maybe you remember Kangounator's updated qvms. All he did was take the latest cgame and ui qvms, and then backport them to make them work on 1.1 servers. But because of sv_pure, only people with a hacked client or playing on one of the few non-pure server will be able to enjoy a performance and functionality boost.
Ever hear of semi-pure?
Maybe you aren't a native english speaker. Have you never wanted to have a translation of the game to your native language? Well, too bad. 90% of all servers have sv_pure on. It's english or nothing.
WTF? The lack of i18n support is nothing to do with pure.
We were temporarily banned from this forum for offering a hacked pk3. All this pk3 did was allowing people to use accented characters while chatting. We removed the hack, so only non-pure servers will be able to have accented characters.
Fixed client-only already.
Have you ever heard of XReal? XReal is an improvement of the Quake 3 engine (which Tremulous is based on) with a completely rewritten renderer which is designed to be comparable to recent commercial games. We are currently working on porting that renderer to Tremfusion. Here are a few screenshots of what it could look like: http://xreal.sourceforge.net/xrealwiki/ScreenShots There is just one problem: Maps will need to be recompiled and shaders will need to be updated. We have started working on that, but... these won't be usable on all servers with sv_pure enabled.
Renderer is client only, and using a different map to the server is both cheating and will bite you in the arse. Hard.
Now, people are telling me that sv_pure prevents cheating. Let's see what it allows... Oh, wait, I'm risking a ban by talking about the danger of these cheats. Therefore, we shall just stay in ignorance and I won't be able to give any arguments for sv_pure concerning cheats. Let's just say that it does allow certain cheats.
Pure doesn't stop cheating. That's impossible. What it does is massively reduce cheating. Just because something is hard doesn't mean you should give up, do the best you can and keep trying.
In order to get these cheats, you need to get a pk3 file, which needs to be downloaded on some obscure website. Now, how do you get a client which automatically bypasses sv_pure? You just go to some obscure website and download the hacked client. Anyone wanting to cheat would of course prefer the hacked client, with aimbot and a lot of little bonuses, to just a hacked pk3.
And get how many viruses while your there?
As you can see, sv_pure does more to prevent users from customizing and extending the game then to prevent people from cheating.
As you can see, Amanieu is pushing an agenda.
Now some people have told me that there is another reason for the use of sv_pure: Many players have a very cluttered base folder with a lot of downloaded pk3s. Some of these pk3s can completely break the game. sv_pure is therefore a way to prevent these pk3s from being loaded (They won't be loaded because they aren't on the server's "allowed" list). I know this is an important problem because when I disabled sv_pure on my server, half of the players were reporting having problems.
We have thought about this problem, and have found a way to keep sv_pure's "shield" effect while getting rid of it's "lock" effect.
Tremfusion will still send the list of allowed pk3s like normal sv_pure. Only the list will be interpreted by the client as a list of "recommended" pk3s, to which the client can add its own pk3s by simply changing the fs_extrapaks cvar to include the names of the pk3s to be added.
Keep this in mind as Tremfusion will continue to grow and start proposing significant graphical improvements, players will surely prefer severs where they will be able to take advantage of these enhancements.
And... if you are one of those people who think Tremfusion has no future... just wait and see ;)
Oh look, an agenda.
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Have you ever heard of XReal? XReal is an improvement of the Quake 3 engine (which Tremulous is based on) with a completely rewritten renderer which is designed to be comparable to recent commercial games. We are currently working on porting that renderer to Tremfusion. Here are a few screenshots of what it could look like: http://xreal.sourceforge.net/xrealwiki/ScreenShots There is just one problem: Maps will need to be recompiled and shaders will need to be updated. We have started working on that, but... these won't be usable on all servers with sv_pure enabled.
That'd be wonderful if you can make the performance of that renderer comparable to those of recent commercial games as well.
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A dretch is dark, and can hide quite well in pipes etc on some maps. A red and yellow dretch is a lot easier to see, and cheating.
If you want to see a dretch better, you boost your gamma and use r_lightmap. If you want to get prettier dretches, you use the FunPack. Also, server owners decide what is "cheating" on their servers, not anyone else.
Ever hear of semi-pure?
It is only used on the PureTremulous servers, and that post was not intended for you guys because I know you guys are too stubborn to remove sv_pure.
WTF? The lack of i18n support is nothing to do with pure.
You need to translate all of the strings in the cgame and ui.
Fixed client-only already.
You need updated fonts.
Renderer is client only, and using a different map to the server is both cheating and will bite you in the arse. Hard.
Once again, it is not up to you to decide what is cheating and what isn't, it is up to the server owner. If he decides that people are allowed to have maps which are recompiled to get better graphics with our new renderer, then he will disable sv_pure and let people enjoy the full potential of their video card.
Pure doesn't stop cheating. That's impossible. What it does is massively reduce cheating. Just because something is hard doesn't mean you should give up, do the best you can and keep trying.
Wrong, and I explain why in the next paragraph.
And get how many viruses while your there?
As many as you want, I don't care and that's completely off-topic.
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<Amanieu> So, yes, we are forking
It is unfortunate that you are seemingly incapable of configuring forum software for your fork, please stop leeching off of tremulous' forums.
It is also unfortunate that you don't have the guts to stand on your own and build your own community, but prefer to "build" your fork by leeching off of other communities.
I have to admit, I was impressed that you finally gave a straight answer though, considering I've been asking you directly if and why you are forking for a long time. I always found it amusing that you quit talking in channels where I asked you that question, once again, no guts.
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That'd be wonderful if you can make the performance of that renderer comparable to those of recent commercial games as well.
The new renderer should outperform the existing one, because it fully exploits the capabilities of the graphic card. The only downside is that support for older graphic cards will have to be dropped.
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I guess the minds of some people are not nearly as open as the actual source.
Way to go, guys.
[PS] I believe this thread belongs somewhere in the Mods section, not here.
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Ignoring all the posts that are unneeded, I believe people are looking at TremFusion more than the topic at hand? (sv_pure)
From what i can see, there are two side that seem to have valid points, the only thing that matters here is the topic posters position( mod status, etc). Ill attempt to wrap this little thread up from the points of view im seeing
Amanieu's: sv_pure IS useless since it can easily be bypassed there is no need for it
Mod's views: if sv_pure is removed that encourages cheating, and that would make it easier for malicious modders to make better cheats that cannot be detected
Reason why amanieu won't win: Amanieu is not a moderator and since the the point of view conflicts with the ones OF the moderators this thread will most likely end up locked( by moderators that don't like their opinion questioned )
My opinion: fuck sv_pure, it isn't helping so i see no need for it to be in the client period
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[PS] I believe this thread belongs somewhere in the Mods section, not here.
This thread is intended to be feedback about sv_pure, but a bunch of trolls are trying to turn it into a discussion of how Tremfusion sucks.
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A dretch is dark, and can hide quite well in pipes etc on some maps. A red and yellow dretch is a lot easier to see, and cheating.
If you want to see a dretch better, you boost your gamma and use r_lightmap. If you want to get prettier dretches, you use the FunPack. Also, server owners decide what is "cheating" on their servers, not anyone else.
Ok, that sounds almost like you're arguing my point....
On my server, I chose what's allowed, so I either allow fun pack or I don't. Which is exactly what sv_pure is designed to facilitate. Same way we allow the alternate BS skins etc on PT.
Also, lightmap is a different argument, and gamma will make both the pipes and the dretch lighter, not a massive change. Nothing like a dayglow green dretch.
Ever hear of semi-pure?
It is only used on the PureTremulous servers, and that post was not intended for you guys because I know you guys are too stubborn to remove sv_pure.
seni-pure will go public SOON(tm), once its fully working and tested. Lak has strict standards and refuses to release untested code, I'm sure you understand.
WTF? The lack of i18n support is nothing to do with pure.
You need to translate all of the strings in the cgame and ui.
You also need to change a fuckton of other stuff, and I doubt you will be able to make it work with 1.1 so will have to wait for a release. But if you do find a good way to make it work with 1.1, then I'm sure most servers will allow it, if they so wish.
Renderer is client only, and using a different map to the server is both cheating and will bite you in the arse. Hard.
Once again, it is not up to you to decide what is cheating and what isn't, it is up to the server owner. If he decides that people are allowed to have maps which are recompiled to get better graphics with our new renderer, then he will disable sv_pure and let people enjoy the full potential of their video card.
You contradict your self here, you say the server owner should have the choice of what's allowed, but then you say they should disable what gives them that choice? If they want people to get the new stuff, then they will let them. If they don't they wont.
Pure doesn't stop cheating. That's impossible. What it does is massively reduce cheating. Just because something is hard doesn't mean you should give up, do the best you can and keep trying.
Wrong, and I explain why in the next paragraph.
Wrong.
Every extra step to cheat makes more people give up. Also, and more importantly, every extra step requires more concious effort to cheat, and makes it clearer that what they are doing is something wrong. As it stands no cheater can ever claim there is nothing wrong with what they are doing, they have to overcome technical limitation to do it. With sv_pure 0 the door is open, and "cheating" is now allowed.
When I am out shopping, if I see a shop with a no entry sign, or a lock door, or something else to suggest I shouldn't go in, then entering is trespass, and probably other crimes. If the door is wide open, then no one can complain, its assumed I can as that's the default for a shop.
With this you grant express permission to modify it via the GPL, so without anything to suggest otherwise, wallhacks and aimbots are expressly allowed. Saying that its cheating and therefore people should know its wrong assumes that people are both well versed in gamer culture, and have the same moral compass as you.
And get how many viruses while your there?
As many as you want, I don't care and that's completely off-topic.
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I was just trying to point out that getting bots isn't as easy as you made out. While most people are idiots, I would like to think most wouldn't trust software made by a self-declared hacker.
googles:
The OP is a comparison of sv_pure in 1.1 and TremFusion version. How is it anything but a thread about TremFusion.
Have you read any responses?
Lava Croft:
Read and make a proper response or STFU and stop the unneeded attacks.
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@Amenieu: The problem with this thread is that it's not discussing wether sv_pure is useful or not, it's discussing wether TremFusion and/or a certain feature of TremFusion is bad or not. I think such a thread belongs in this section.
@David: Take a Diazepam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valium) and relax a little.
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despite this thread being heavily based toward TremFusion, i still think the sv_pure system needs some serious questioning and/or discussing with the community in mind. From my point of view, pure is simply limiting the community from developing what they want to make.
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Ok, that sounds almost like you're arguing my point....
On my server, I chose what's allowed, so I either allow fun pack or I don't. Which is exactly what sv_pure is designed to facilitate. Same way we allow the alternate BS skins etc on PT.
Also, lightmap is a different argument, and gamma will make both the pipes and the dretch lighter, not a massive change. Nothing like a dayglow green dretch.
As google said: "pure is simply limiting the community from developing what they want to make". As servers start to turn sv_pure off, the community will be motivated to make client mods. You can't expect a server owner to keep up with the huge number of mods which will be released, most, if not all of them, are not cheats.
Gamma and r_lightmap actually provides more of an advantage in game than a bright green dretch, and even so, the advantage is very small because maps aren't made to allow players to hide by blending with the colors of their surroundings.
seni-pure will go public SOON(tm), once its fully working and tested. Lak has strict standards and refuses to release untested code, I'm sure you understand.
I'll interpret "SOON(tm)" the same way I interpret 1.2's release: Until it's released, it doesn't exist.
I'll interpret "refuses to release untested code" like this: http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/last.bug.html
And still, you can't expect server owners to have every single variation of updated client qvms on their server.
You also need to change a fuckton of other stuff, and I doubt you will be able to make it work with 1.1 so will have to wait for a release. But if you do find a good way to make it work with 1.1, then I'm sure most servers will allow it, if they so wish.
Making it work with 1.1 is the least of my worries, I'm just going to put the chosen language in a cvar and let the cgame/ui interpret it.
You contradict your self here, you say the server owner should have the choice of what's allowed, but then you say they should disable what gives them that choice? If they want people to get the new stuff, then they will let them. If they don't they wont.
As I said before, you can't expect server owners to keep stuffing their base folder with every mod that gets released. It is better to just allow people to load up whatever mod they want, and then just revert to traditional methods for catching cheaters.
Wrong.
Every extra step to cheat makes more people give up. Also, and more importantly, every extra step requires more concious effort to cheat, and makes it clearer that what they are doing is something wrong. As it stands no cheater can ever claim there is nothing wrong with what they are doing, they have to overcome technical limitation to do it. With sv_pure 0 the door is open, and "cheating" is now allowed.
When I am out shopping, if I see a shop with a no entry sign, or a lock door, or something else to suggest I shouldn't go in, then entering is trespass, and probably other crimes. If the door is wide open, then no one can complain, its assumed I can as that's the default for a shop.
With this you grant express permission to modify it via the GPL, so without anything to suggest otherwise, wallhacks and aimbots are expressly allowed. Saying that its cheating and therefore people should know its wrong assumes that people are both well versed in gamer culture, and have the same moral compass as you.
The only extra step there is is downloading a hacked client in addition to a pk3. About telling people if cheats are allowed or not: Aimbots and wallhacks obviously give you an advantage in game, and anyone will know that they aren't allowed, except on a server that says "CHEATZOR SERVER--CHEATS ALLOWED". On the other hand, new fonts, new textures, recompiled maps DO NOT give you any significant advantage in game.
I was just trying to point out that getting bots isn't as easy as you made out. While most people are idiots, I would like to think most wouldn't trust software made by a self-declared hacker.
I'm pretty sure they would, they "need" an aimbot to pwn everyone in the game.
The OP is a comparison of sv_pure in 1.1 and TremFusion version. How is it anything but a thread about TremFusion.
Have you read any responses?
The topic of this thread is sv_pure. Tremfusion is related to the topic but it isn't the topic.
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A dretch is dark, and can hide quite well in pipes etc on some maps. A red and yellow dretch is a lot easier to see, and cheating.
brightness/darkness
one thing that deserves much more attention on discussions of this subject is the effect of real life variables on vision
lcd vs crt monitors,
glare, real life light, dark rooms vs bright
should we assume everyone has 20/20 vision? age?
i can turn up the brightness on my laptop to see better, but it hurts my eyes/brain after a few hours.
we talk about how the things we can control (software) make a big difference but don't real life variables also make a big difference? maybe even to the point where its seems silly to discuss such restrictions?
maybe if you average all the players in both groups(file1 vs file2) and compare, one group will have an advantage, but should individual players have such a handicap? i think not.
i think you'd be more effective if you discuss models that had lines sticking far out on the x,y,z axis.(see around corners) or a similar modification that appears more legitimate.
offtopic
What if the thread title was:
"Amanieu's opinion concerning sv_pure"
So, Amanieu is speaking for a project / multiple people? so what?
What if his name was Tremfusion and/or he advertised his project by the same name in his sig?
what if we discussed "Patch X" instead of "Tremfusion method"
(things to think about)
everyone has an agenda, its just that he has an agenda for a minority, should we shun him away because we disagree with him?
and everyone advertises in similar less obvious ways whether it be intentional or not.
not all forks are equal, there are such things as friendly forks
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You have said people should be allowed to run what they want.
You have said server operators should be able to choose what people can run on there servers.
Please make up your mind.
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People should be allowed to run what they want.
Server operators can either stick to pure and have people stop playing on their server because they can't run their mod on it, or they can disable it and increase their popularity.
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Just my opinion about how much sv_pure sux:
On my server, I chose what's allowed, so I either allow fun pack or I don't.
And you think the cheaters care if you 'disallow' something?
Which is exactly what sv_pure is designed to facilitate.
It fails to facilitate it. But it doesn't fail stopping modders.
Pure doesn't stop cheating. That's impossible. What it does is massively reduce cheating.
HAHAHAHAA. Massively my @$$. Maybe compared to a mosquito annoying the potential cheater... No wait it doesn't. I've seen enough cheaters to know that every douche who wants can and will get cheats and only IP/subnet ban stops them, not telling them that it's wrong. So sv_pure is useless at stopping cheating.
Just because something is hard doesn't mean you should give up, do the best you can and keep trying.
The cheaters don't have to 'do the best you can' to get past sv_pure and they certainly don't have to 'keep trying'. Until we get something that actually stops cheating, why limit mods? We can't even get custom images to HUDs iirc.
makes it clearer that what they are doing is something wrong
and you want to think they care. Maybe 0-1% of them.
I would like to think most wouldn't trust software made by a self-declared hacker.
I'd like to think that too, but sadly that is not the case.
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That'd be wonderful if you can make the performance of that renderer comparable to those of recent commercial games as well.
The new renderer should outperform the existing one, because it fully exploits the capabilities of the graphic card. The only downside is that support for older graphic cards will have to be dropped.
XreaL draws very pretty frames, but takes a long time to do so. With a Radeon HD3650 card, XreaL approaches the performance of Doom 3 without shadows, and gets 20 to 50 fps with stencil volume shadowing when simply walking around a map. Doom3 ran at playable framerates with "ultra" quality settings on a uniprocessor system with a GeForce3 card.
In other words, a HD3650 is insufficient to play XreaL with realtime shadowing, and although this is not a high-end card, it's still somewhat more than what much of the Tremulous community currently have. Sure, XreaL does use contemporary rendering features, but the value of including such features is questionable when only players with high-end graphics hardware can exploit them.
The current Tremulous renderer gives well over 100fps on complex maps like Arachnid2 on a HD3650. The XreaL renderer gives around 60fps on relatively simple maps without realtime shadowing. I doubt that XreaL will outperform the regular Q3 renderer, it just requires too much number crunching to do that. The Q3 renderer only requires the fixed-function graphics hardware of 1999.
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geez I don't care what you think about sv_pure or anything else.
Open your own forum and do whatever you want to do THERE.
Please, stop advertising tremfusion until you come with something stable and better.
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That'd be wonderful if you can make the performance of that renderer comparable to those of recent commercial games as well.
The new renderer should outperform the existing one, because it fully exploits the capabilities of the graphic card. The only downside is that support for older graphic cards will have to be dropped.
XreaL draws very pretty frames, but takes a long time to do so. With a Radeon HD3650 card, XreaL approaches the performance of Doom 3 without shadows, and gets 20 to 50 fps with stencil volume shadowing when simply walking around a map. Doom3 ran at playable framerates with "ultra" quality settings on a uniprocessor system with a GeForce3 card.
In other words, a HD3650 is insufficient to play XreaL with realtime shadowing, and although this is not a high-end card, it's still somewhat more than what much of the Tremulous community currently have. Sure, XreaL does use contemporary rendering features, but the value of including such features is questionable when only players with high-end graphics hardware can exploit them.
The current Tremulous renderer gives well over 100fps on complex maps like Arachnid2 on a HD3650. The XreaL renderer gives around 60fps on relatively simple maps without realtime shadowing. I doubt that XreaL will outperform the regular Q3 renderer, it just requires too much number crunching to do that. The Q3 renderer only requires the fixed-function graphics hardware of 1999.
There are better renderers if you want a 3d-slideshow ;)
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The amount people who actually use hacked clients to bypass sv_pure are so minuscule that it doesn't matter anyway. I will never know if they're cheating or not unless they use an aimbot. I will still try as hard as I can to win regardless.
I myself don't know how to bypass sv_pure(and don't plan to figure out) and am glad to conform to the server rules. If they want me to load zzz_lolmods.pk3 then so be it.
only IP/subnet ban stops them
The only way to ban anyone permanently is to subnet. The only way they could get on your server after that would be through a proxy and I would laugh at the moron who tries this.
Until we get something that actually stops cheating
You won't. Simple as that. Tremulous is Open Source(and thus you cannot trust the client) so as long as that is true we will have cheaters.
and you want to think they care.
But do I care about what they think? No, I don't. If I find a cheater I ban them. How is that so hard to understand?
But it doesn't fail stopping modders.
Come on. How can you call modders cheaters? Modders use sv_pure to make their mod popular(forced download).
Tremfusion cronies: GTFO of my Tremulous.
XreaL draws very pretty frames, but takes a long time to do so. With a Radeon HD3650 card, XreaL approaches the performance of Doom 3 without shadows, and gets 20 to 50 fps with stencil volume shadowing when simply walking around a map. Doom3 ran at playable framerates with "ultra" quality settings on a uniprocessor system with a GeForce3 card.
Perhaps a partial port would be acceptable. I would be content with bump/deluxe/normal/specular support through specular lighting. In fact, lightmaps(with deluxemaps) are forced default in XreaL nowadays. Plus, shinyness like this wouldn't really hurt the gameplay at all. Theres no way to cheat with specular light.
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Simple as this: When you develop and release a game under the GPL, there will ALWAYS be cheaters, trying to prevent cheating in an open source game is useless and limits the community itself, i mean why would someone release a game under the GPL? to let the community develop/learn from/for it! so you need to fuck off and let the community decide what they want.
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Simple as this: When you develop and release a game under the GPL, there will ALWAYS be cheaters, trying to prevent cheating in an open source game is useless and limits the community itself, i mean why would someone release a game under the GPL? to let the community develop/learn from/for it! so you need to fuck off and let the community decide what they want.
sv_pure does a good enough job.
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1.2 shouldnt be open-source? make peace and love?
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I don't really understand why it is that the developers who have made good and responsible ideas don't seem to have had any problem working within sv_pure but only the guys who've made all sorts of nonsense declare it an evil hindrance to development.
Looks like it only hinders the bad developers, to me.
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if it wasn't for tremulous( or rather open source ) i wouldn't be able to learn the basics of C as easy as i could with tremulous, and the reason i still like to develop for tremulous is the amazing community. also, sv_pure is like putting a band-aid on shotgun wound :|
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I don't really understand why it is that the developers who have made good and responsible ideas don't seem to have had any problem working within sv_pure but only the guys who've made all sorts of nonsense declare it an evil hindrance to development.
Looks like it only hinders the bad developers, to me.
This is one post i have to disagree with, the community > initial developer. Without a community the developer wouldn't have anyone to develop for.
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if it wasn't for tremulous( or rather open source ) i wouldn't be able to learn the basics of C as easy as i could with tremulous, and the reason i still like to develop for tremulous is the amazing community. also, sv_pure is like putting a band-aid on shotgun wound :|
Better that than pouring salt on it.
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I don't really understand why it is that the developers who have made good and responsible ideas don't seem to have had any problem working within sv_pure but only the guys who've made all sorts of nonsense declare it an evil hindrance to development.
Looks like it only hinders the bad developers, to me.
This is one post i have to disagree with, the community > initial developer. Without a community the developer wouldn't have anyone to develop for.
What does this have anything to do with community? or you mean community of 5 people or so?
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What salt? Is a band aid on a shotgun wound AND all the limits that come with that band aid better then not having it?
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I have to say I am astonished at how googles is describing the Tremulous community. Apparently we are all cheaters who want nothing to do with the original developers and hate everything about Tremulous.
This is one of the greatest insults to the Tremulous community I've ever had the misfortune to read.
What salt? Is a band aid on a shotgun wound AND all the limits that come with that band aid better then not having it?
Yes. Most medical bandages contain a small amount of antibiotics these days, so, technically you have a better chance of healing a wound that size with a small bandage than not.
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My opinion (please don't comment about how much you don't care about my opinion, because I like to voice it anyway) is that pure is fairly useless against anyone who wants to _cheat_ but still prevents small mods like new models and custom shaders. If I want to cheat, I won't edit the textures I have manually, I'll instead go download a free hack that does it for my while bypassing pure. It takes much less effort to download a cheat made by someone else that works on pure servers than it is to make dretches or something bright colors. Pure is stopping nothing but creativity.
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I wish i could use newer vm sets on pure servers :(
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I wish i could use newer vm sets on pure servers :(
http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=9120.0
This release today was scheduled almost a week ago, I swear. :)
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I want to use updated vms on ALL servers, and id also like to use my own shaders..
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And I want world peace and a cure for AIDS and cancer.
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I want to use updated vms on ALL servers, and id also like to use my own shaders..
Unfortunately that's cheating.
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sv_pure will not stop a determined cheater or griefer but it does keep games organised - it stops all the silly crap in peoples base folders from being loaded on "proper" games, and that is a Good Thing (tm). The game is only fair if all players are using the same assets.
Locking my doors and windows will not stop a determined thief. That does not mean that leaving them unlocked is a good idea.
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I want to use updated vms on ALL servers, and id also like to use my own shaders..
Unfortunately that's cheating.
oh thats right, cheating is defined by the elite few. My bad...
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Just my opinion about how much sv_pure sux:
On my server, I chose what's allowed, so I either allow fun pack or I don't.
And you think the cheaters care if you 'disallow' something?
No, but if I don't disallow it, then it isn't cheating...
Which is exactly what sv_pure is designed to facilitate.
It fails to facilitate it. But it doesn't fail stopping modders.
Modders are doing fine.
Pure doesn't stop cheating. That's impossible. What it does is massively reduce cheating.
HAHAHAHAA. Massively my @$$. Maybe compared to a mosquito annoying the potential cheater... No wait it doesn't. I've seen enough cheaters to know that every douche who wants can and will get cheats and only IP/subnet ban stops them, not telling them that it's wrong. So sv_pure is useless at stopping cheating.
Ok fine, pure massively increases cheating, as without it there is no line to say what is cheating and what isn't.
Let me put it this way. My objection isn't so much on technical grounds. I know it can be avoided. I've never looked into it myself, but people I trust say its easy, so I'll assume it is. TremFusion themselves even distributed a pure hack at one point.
My objection is on a more "political" level. Near where I live there's a road that would make a nice short but when I walk to some places. But I go the long way, not because there are barriers or guards, but because of a no entry sign. If that sign wasn't there, I would use it, and it would be legal. As it is, it isn't legal, I know that, and as a responsible member of the community I respect that.
This is similar, although maybe a better metaphor would be a bolted-but-not-locked gate. You can open it if you want, but know you shouldn't.
While I can open that gate and ignore the sign, it makes a line. If you pass it you are wrong, if you don't you are fine.
Pure makes a very firm and easy to see line. Without it its very open to interpretation, personal bias, and culture. In some games I play, automation is embraced well beyond the point that would be accepted here.
Maybe a better solution would be to make a central service that lists all the mods, and let server "subscribe" to various category's, so I can say on my server that minor sound and model mods are allowed, but major ones aren't, and nothing that changes maps more than fps increase / decrease. Of course such a thing would require a trusted 3rd party and some infrastructure, but IMO would be a better solution to your non-existent problem.
EDIT: oops page two..
googles: Cheating isn't defined by "the elite few", it was defined by the developers, with a system in place for individual servers to redefine it. If a server doesn't redefine it, then the default stands.
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yeah..right......conforming to ones defined rule does not make the rule right...
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yeah..right......conforming to ones defined rule does not make the rule right...
The question is not if the rule is right, but what the rule is. Also, usual blurb about "my house my rules".
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Server owners pay the bill and that makes their rules right while you are using their server for free.
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Server owners pay the bill and that makes their rules right while you are using their server for free.
^ gets it
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I'm glad to see the topic turning towards a useful discussion and away from a spamvertisement. Though now that I'm back, I do have a couple comments:
Ignoring all the posts that are unneeded, I believe people are looking at TremFusion more than the topic at hand? (sv_pure)
This thread is intended to be feedback about sv_pure, but a bunch of trolls are trying to turn it into a discussion of how Tremfusion sucks.
Amanieu, you would be that troll. If this was not supposed to have anything to do with your fork, then it should not have mentioned your fork in both the subject and the initial post. You MADE this about your fork by bringing it up, otherwise it could have just as easily been "Amanieu's opinion considering sv_pure". If there's any trolling going on here, you're the one piloting that boat with a fishing rod in hand.
Reason why amanieu won't win: Amanieu is not a moderator and since the the point of view conflicts with the ones OF the moderators this thread will most likely end up locked( by moderators that don't like their opinion questioned )
On the contrary; his point of view about sv_pure means nothing to me, and he is certainly entitled to it. I would never ban him, or anyone else, or lock any threads by him or anyone else, simply because of their opinion about a Tremulous feature if brought up and discussed in a sane and rational manner. However, if we're going to start advertising games which are priding themselves on being divergent from the parent source, then it's spam, it's crap, and it'll go in the trash pile since it doesn't belong here. Otherwise I'll be happy to start posting links to a bunch of other games that have nothing to do with Tremulous - after all, how is spamming a fork any different than me advertising Stendhal (http://stendhal.game-host.org)?
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And the MG Nazis strike again. They are the ones who define what is Tremulous and whats not (apparently).
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And bissig posts a pointless attack to cover for his lack of ability to argue his flimsy point. Again.
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And the MG Nazis strike again. They are the ones who define what is Tremulous and whats not (apparently).
amanieu defined tremfusion as "not tremulous" himself, no one else.
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I have to say I am astonished at how googles is describing the Tremulous community. Apparently we are all cheaters who want nothing to do with the original developers and hate everything about Tremulous.
This is one of the greatest insults to the Tremulous community I've ever had the misfortune to read.
What salt? Is a band aid on a shotgun wound AND all the limits that come with that band aid better then not having it?
Yes. Most medical bandages contain a small amount of antibiotics these days, so, technically you have a better chance of healing a wound that size with a small bandage than not.
google never said that
And the MG Nazis strike again. They are the ones who define what is Tremulous and whats not (apparently).
amanieu defined tremfusion as "not tremulous" himself, no one else.
eventually tremfusion wont be compatible with tremulous until then there still just another tremulous client forking takes time and atleast we will get something new instead of tremulous slowly dying from lack of teamwork on humans OP goon and tyrant and a host of bugs (most thats been fixed and released by the community (alot from amanieu) )
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The only fork that ever got any real attention(and success) was X.org.
google never said that
You're misunderstanding my post. googles has been describing the Tremulous community as one that does not wish to adhere to rules and that the Tremulous community dislikes the dev team due to a so called "lack of 1.2." Anyone that has been playing Tremulous long enough to be a part of the community should be offended by this. Yes, I long for Tremulous 1.2 to come out but I know things take time especially for a ragtag team of devs who have never actually physically seen each other in person before, and are certainly not paid to develop Tremulous.
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sv_Pure 1 as I see it is a kind of racism that dont want that the game itself advance, it may blocks the "bad cracks" but it still blocks so many stuff that can be useness for so many players like the playerst that speaks another language different than english. Another example is this guy who hate the arachnids... (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=9105.0) and he cant fix it, because it could be calling "cracking"
sv_pure 0 ftw!
EDIT: Oh BTW, if we talk about the "cracks" sv_pure can still be bypassed easily.
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Wow. sv_pure is racism now?
What's next, it causes cancer?
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sv_pure is DRM
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sv_pure is DRM
Perfect comparison... doesn't stop those who want to bypass it and screws over those who want play with a few nice mods. And makes them choose an unofficial client.
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sv_pure is DRM
Yeah! How dare those server owners that pay out the ass for the machines and bandwidth every month use sv_pure 1 to inhibit our right to use the mods we paid for on the game we paid for!
Oh. Oh wait. Nevermind.
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Yeah! How dare those server owners that pay out the ass for the machines and bandwidth every month use sv_pure 1 to inhibit our right to use the mods we paid for on the game we paid for!
Oh. Oh wait. Nevermind.
Perfect comparison... doesn't stop those who want to bypass it and screws over those who want play with a few nice mods. And makes them choose an unofficial client.
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non sense discussion and a non sense fork
complete it before you advertising it ... but no you act like a 16 years old kid
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non sense discussion and a non sense fork
complete it before you advertising it ... but no you act like a 16 years old kid
Non sense off topic post which bring nothing useful to the discussion.
(And I am 16 btw)
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Hi, sorry if I spoil your party by returning to the topic, but I wanted to state my opininon regarding sv_pure:
- even if the presence of a sv_pure / a similar system presents only a small technical challenge in an open source game, it still is a moral/psycological/maybe even legal obstacle for cheaters. So it should generally be kept, but of course it shouldn't get in the way of "harmless" modifications if possible.
- generally the server owner should be able to decide which mods are allowed on his server, just like the server owner can choose which players he allows on his server.
- the player also has to agree which mods he wants to use. Usually this agreement is given by the installation of the mod, but if auto-downloading is enabled, this may not be automatically assumed.
So in my opinion it should work like this: the server announces which pk3s are required and which additional pk3s are allowed. The client then has to check which of these paks he is allowed to use, by checking its configuration or asking the player. When the player chooses not to use a required pak, he can't join the game of course. If he chooses to use a pak not available locally, the client should try to download it.
Bonus points if the player could choose separately to allow only data or also qvms contained in the pak.
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(And I am 16 btw)
that describes everything. hard times; you try to become an adult from a child. I should't have judged your actions. Sorry kid
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(And I am 16 btw)
that describes everything. hard times; you try to become an adult from a child. I should't have judged your actions. Sorry kid
Physical age does no define someones mental ability, he has no problem understanding the same things you do. so shut the fuck up.
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Not really sure if im risking ban here but oh well.
Alot of us know how to make pk3s work on pure servers, and so far, we have done this to create updated vm sets that help the client itself. So i propose why not just allow *hacked* pk3 files but only if their function is not to cheat...
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If you want server operators to disable sv_pure, you should contact the server operators. Discussing it with people who do not host a server will accomplish little more than mutual unfriendliness.
I suggest you guys go here (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=8093.0) and start contacting server operators and ask them if they want to disable sv_pure.
You can be fairly certain that sv_pure is here to stay, for a multitude of sane reasons, other than the usual "we are from this group and we have the monopoly on what we think Tremulous should be" type of whining. Therefore, a discussion like this serves no purpose, as most of the people who are discussing it here will make no difference to the (possible) decision wether sv_pure will stay or not, or wether any server will disable it.
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Alot of us know how to make pk3s work on pure servers, and so far, we have done this to create updated vm sets that help the client itself. So i propose why not just allow *hacked* pk3 files but only if their function is not to cheat...
And who gets to choose what's cheating? The server owner. Oh look, that's what the current system is for.
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Alot of us know how to make pk3s work on pure servers, and so far, we have done this to create updated vm sets that help the client itself. So i propose why not just allow *hacked* pk3 files but only if their function is not to cheat...
And who gets to choose what's cheating? The server owner. Oh look, that's what the current system is for.
So i get no say in what i can and cannot use? I define what is a cheat and what is not. Can we get some more trust around here?
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(And I am 16 btw)
that describes everything. hard times; you try to become an adult from a child. I should't have judged your actions. Sorry kid
Physical age does no define someones mental ability, he has no problem understanding the same things you do. so shut the fuck up.
Actually it does(simple fact: you can increase your mental abilities so mental abilities change by age). However I was referring the hormones and adolescence .
Talking about mental abilities... so "so shut the fuck up" tells me a lot about yours ;)
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Odd..I usually know alot more than my peers...I can't see why age would affect my learning ability. :|
lets get back on topic...
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So i get no say in what i can and cannot use? I define what is a cheat and what is not. Can we get some more trust around here?
When you are on my server, which I pay for, then no, you don't. You obey my rules or find / make a server with rules you like.
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So i get no say in what i can and cannot use? I define what is a cheat and what is not. Can we get some more trust around here?
When you are on my server, which I pay for, then no, you don't. You obey my rules or find / make a server with rules you like.
lol alright
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The pure check is like locking the door to your house. It's useless against a thief with a crowbar or a bunch of lockpicks. It only deters the guy who wanders around stealing stuff from unlocked houses.
Or, for you metaphorically-challenged people out there: Anyone who really, really wants to bypass the pure check can do so. The only protection it offers is against casual cheaters.
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Alot of us know how to make pk3s work on pure servers, and so far, we have done this to create updated vm sets that help the client itself. So i propose why not just allow *hacked* pk3 files but only if their function is not to cheat...
And who gets to choose what's cheating? The server owner. Oh look, that's what the current system is for.
So i get no say in what i can and cannot use? I define what is a cheat and what is not. Can we get some more trust around here?
The person who defines what is cheating and what is not is the person who defines the rules: The server operator.
I'll say it again: David does not host any servers, in fact, the servers belonging to his guild are mostly empty.
Therefore, wether David agrees with you about sv_pure or not, it won't change one iota about the fact that you need to contact server operators in order to get them to disable sv_pure. Even if David wanted to open up the gates of haxhell for you, he couldn't, since he cannot control the actions of other server operators, no matter how much he would like to.
Stop focussing your attention on the wrong people.
[PS] @googles & fingered banana: Stop bitching at each other, or take it to a private conversation.
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Alot of us know how to make pk3s work on pure servers, and so far, we have done this to create updated vm sets that help the client itself. So i propose why not just allow *hacked* pk3 files but only if their function is not to cheat...
And who gets to choose what's cheating? The server owner. Oh look, that's what the current system is for.
So i get no say in what i can and cannot use? I define what is a cheat and what is not. Can we get some more trust around here?
The person who defines what is cheating and what is not is the person who defines the rules: The server operator.
I'll say it again: David does not host any servers, in fact, the servers belonging to his guild are mostly empty.
Therefore, wether David agrees with you about sv_pure or not, it won't change one iota about the fact that you need to contact server operators in order to get them to disable sv_pure. Even if David wanted to open up the gates of haxhell for you, he couldn't, since he cannot control the actions of other server operators, no matter how much he would like to.
Stop focussing your attention on the wrong people.
[PS] @googles & fingered banana: Stop bitching at each other, or take it to a private conversation.
Well my direction isn't toward bypassing pure for the hell of it. What I would like to see is alot more trust in the community itself. tbh I would never use cheats since I love the game itself and i would rather play than let the computer do it for me..
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Even if the trust you think is missing would be applied to the community, it are still the server operators that decide the rules on their server.
So, you are still in the wrong place, talking to the wrong people.
To help you out, I will be the first to reply to your possible query concerning sv_pure:
SatGNU will not disable sv_pure.
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If more people start cheating can't we just ban them like we always do? I don't get what people are concerned about.
(Real questions, not an argument)
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Of course! But sometimes it's hard to tell when someone is cheating.
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If more people start cheating can't we just ban them like we always do?
most stuff that sv_pure prevents is hard to spot on a non-hacked client (unlike aimbots, for example)
anyway, IMHO sv_pure should only be enforced to critical parts of the game (eg. shaders shown in the 3D scene) while letting room for other stuff (eg. HUD)
that could be done with an idea I once expressed, that idea being using namespaces ( the main use of namespaces is to prevent "collision" between two identifiers, which is exactly what sv_pure does, but for shaders and other stuff )
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That wouldn't work since the cgame can also draw graphics onto the screen( as can the client )
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idea:
people who oppose the current sv_pure 1 could choose to play on sv_pure 0 servers even if they don't have any modifications.
this will attract more people to those servers, and decrease the chances of people running into problems when they try to mod the game, (when i say it like this it almost sounds sinister) people will have the expectation of being able to mod the game and therefore get hooked on sv_pure 0, who will win: the love of modding or the fear of cheaters.
the sv_pure 0 servers are almost impossible to identify inside the default server browser.
here is a non intrusive method of identifying sv_pure 0 servers.
i included the list of servers returned so that we can get a better idea of how widespread sv_pure 0 is.
thanks to two people in irc for telling me
~"quakestat"
~"quakestat -R -tremulousm master.tremulous.net"
http://qstat.org/
$ qstat -R -ne -tremulousm master.tremulous.net | grep -B 1 "pure=0" | grep "TREM"
TREMULOUS 200.49.147.87:30720 4/24 atcs 266 / 0 base *
TREMULOUS 143.107.107.254:30720 7/32 gloom_b1 218 / 0 base Brasil Regular
TREMULOUS 66.197.220.238:30721 5/37 pushcannon_b3 110 / 0 base N ----> House of Nuts
TREMULOUS 174.132.18.150:30720 3/20 atcs 62 / 0 base OA
TREMULOUS 74.52.14.98:30720 18/32 karith 63 / 0 base o8DretchStorm
TREMULOUS 66.186.45.66:30721 5/40 volcano 32 / 0 base |SST|
connect:241.225.10.120:92: No such file or directory
TREMULOUS 75.132.213.91:30720 4/30 atcs 125 / 0 base Snake's uBP Playground!
TREMULOUS 200.100.117.214:30720 1/20 pushcannon_b1 688 / 0 base {Escorpion=}Bots
TREMULOUS 91.121.159.48:30730 1/40 atcs 172 / 0 base TremFusion Test Server
$ qstat -R -tremulousm master.tremulous.net | grep -B 1 "pure=0" | grep "TREM"
TREMULOUS 88.191.23.11:30720 0/15 sirius-beta1 172 / 0 tremx BRICOSOFT TremX =) TremX.bricosoft.com FreeBSD.
TREMULOUS 217.70.191.95:30723 0/20 atcs 172 / 0 base Cheatorz - Cheats allowed !
TREMULOUS 72.36.153.139:30720 0/30 rotcannon_garbage_1 63 / 0 base a
TREMULOUS 200.232.215.207:60054 0/16 gamma_core-final 250 / 0 base Firen server
TREMULOUS 85.134.116.218:30720 0/13 karith 235 / 0 base CheeseMedia.net
TREMULOUS 200.49.147.87:30720 8/24 atcs 250 / 0 base *
TREMULOUS 67.186.69.253:32123 0/ 9 transit 110 / 0 base Sardonic Asylum
TREMULOUS 91.121.201.27:30720 0/10 niveus 172 / 0 base FRA:Debian/Lenny
TREMULOUS 143.107.107.254:30721 0/32 niveus 219 / 0 base Brasil - CF
TREMULOUS 91.121.201.27:30721 0/14 atcs 172 / 0 base =[-AS-]=Public
TREMULOUS 143.107.107.254:30720 10/32 gloom_b1 219 / 0 base Brasil Regular
TREMULOUS 66.197.220.238:30721 5/37 pushcannon_b3 110 / 0 base N ----> House of Nuts
TREMULOUS 66.197.220.238:30720 0/40 karith 94 / 0 base |SST|
TREMULOUS 66.197.220.238:30722 0/21 atcs 110 / 0 base {SST} Clan Server
TREMULOUS 90.177.114.207:32123 0/ 7 utcsb2 203 / 0 base CZ - Newkiller's Tremulous Public
TREMULOUS 174.132.18.150:30720 2/20 atcs 62 / 0 base OA
TREMULOUS 68.239.78.193:50165 0/64 atcs 344 / 0 base LASTSTAND SERVER
TREMULOUS 195.199.222.57:30720 0/13 niveus 204 / 0 base HUN (Agresszor) Reload!
TREMULOUS 65.249.227.124:30720 0/20 uncreation 125 / 0 base cat-man-du.com Tremulous 1.1.0
TREMULOUS 68.239.78.193:50238 0/64 nexus6 422 / 0 base CONTRA
TREMULOUS 72.78.48.107:30721 0/ 8 nexus6 109 / 0 base Rezyn's testing ground
TREMULOUS 74.52.14.98:30720 17/32 tremor 47 / 0 base o8DretchStorm
TREMULOUS 68.239.78.193:50762 0/64 atcs 360 / 0 base {DW} CLAN SERVER
TREMULOUS 66.186.45.66:30721 5/40 volcano 16 / 0 base |SST|
TREMULOUS 66.183.175.241:32123 0/13 niveus 93 / 0 base Dr.Mario's Fun Server
TREMULOUS 68.239.78.193:50763 0/64 atcs 453 / 0 base ZEEKMANS SERVER
TREMULOUS 205.234.142.225:30721 0/24 atcs 78 / 0 base BobsOCServer!
TREMULOUS 67.43.163.198:30720 0/22 atcs 16 / 0 base [OPP]ressed[ATCS]
TREMULOUS 68.239.78.193:50764 0/64 karith 453 / 0 base SIGMA
TREMULOUS 75.132.213.91:30720 4/30 atcs 125 / 0 base Snake's uBP Playground!
connect:241.225.10.120:92: No such file or directory
TREMULOUS 72.222.161.141:64570 0/24 atcs 47 / 0 base Patrickland
TREMULOUS 200.100.117.214:30720 1/20 pushcannon_b1 453 / 0 base {Escorpion=}Bots
TREMULOUS 68.239.78.193:50907 0/64 tremor 359 / 0 base .:DT:. Clan FunServer
TREMULOUS 91.121.159.48:30730 1/40 atcs 172 / 0 base TremFusion Test Server
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Oa ftw!
the love of modding or the fear of cheaters.
If more people start cheating can't we just !ban them like we always do? I don't get what people are concerned about.
And isnt like the love of the modding is moe like the needing of the moding (like to translate the client or another stuff that doesnt affect the gameplay.)
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I want to point out that while the people in favor of removing sv_pure keep on talking about how the sv_pure system is limiting the incentive to create mods for or use mods with Tremulous, they actually should stop talking, close their eyes, think for 5 seconds, and then open them again.
In those 5 seconds, you think about these things:
Quake III Arena
sv_pure
Modding Community
Tremulous
If you are not completely devoid of any kind of common sense, you would realize that the sv_pure system certainly did not limit the people wanting to create mods for or use mods with Quake III Arena.
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In this case we are talking about client-side only minimods, like an updated font or a speed-meter in my HUD.
What Q3A promoted was complete mods, like rocket arena and tremulous.
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Again, even without your awesome feature, Quake III Arena went down pretty well with the modding community.
What you suggest is just not in balanced out that well. You want to give up the basic, crude cheat protection provided by sv_pure, in favor of letting a small amount of people -yes, most people will not use client-side minimods- hack their way to a Tremulous as they want to play it.
Now, if this was completely impossible with the current sv_pure system, you would have a point, but seeing that this 'problem' is solved by making sure server operators set sv_pure 0, there is absolutely no reason to remove the current system. Just talk to server operators and get them to set sv_pure to 0.
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In this case we are talking about client-side only minimods, like an updated font or a speed-meter in my HUD.
I've been using TTF fonts for the last week or so, they look nice. Work with pure too.
And is there any use for a speed-meter? And if there is, it would probably be back to the "not on my server".
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I've been using TTF fonts for the last week or so, they look nice. Work with pure too.
The only reason it works with pure is that the client modifies the pure check code to allow ttf fonts to bypass the check.
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ttf files are treated the same way as cfg files etc. aka harmless.
I'll say it again: David does not host any servers, in fact, the servers belonging to his guild are mostly empty.
Therefore, wether David agrees with you about sv_pure or not, it won't change one iota about the fact that you need to contact server operators in order to get them to disable sv_pure. Even if David wanted to open up the gates of haxhell for you, he couldn't, since he cannot control the actions of other server operators, no matter how much he would like to.
The only reason I still read this thread is because I am awaiting a reply to http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=9116.msg140674#msg140674 which seems to have been ignored by everyone.
(Also, in case anyone cares, I'm *still* not sure what Amanieu and googles' positions are server-choice. A clarification would be nice, lots of contradictory statements going on.)
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It doesn't really matter whether sv_pure should be implemented or not. If someone really wants to bypass it, they can do so. As the TremFusion client demonstrates, it's not that hard.
Anything involving security should not be at the player's end. But in this case, that's the only way it'll work. In a closed-source game, maybe, but when everyone can see the code, client-side cheat prevention is a no-go.
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Again, you haven't addressed my main argument for keeping it.
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The way I interpret it, your main argument for keeping it is that even if it's not much good against actual cheating, it still gives you legal grounds to dish out practically unlimited punishment against anyone who violates it (and then they can't say "But I didn't know it was against the rules!"). That's a good reason. But ask yourself this: Is a determined cheater going to be worried about that? If they're good at cheating, they won't give much evidence as to the fact that they're doing it (at least not enough for you to ban them and honestly say "I know they were cheating.").
Anyway, I wasn't saying the pure check should be removed. I was just saying it doesn't provide much of a barrier to anyone who really wants to bypass it. It'll certainly stop any momentarily incompetence-crazed noob from making all the aliens bright red. But if I want an aimbot, I can just download some source, change/remove the pure check code, and use the aimbot with impunity.
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Server owners get this choice: Enable sv_pure, or disable it. My point (which Posts nicely summarized) is that players will prefer servers on which they can customize their client to be the way they like it, instead of just sticking with the standard stuff everyone has to use.
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Yes, it's the server owner's choice. Maybe you prefer to let people customize their clients. That's fine. But the pure check keeps out the cheaters who don't know C or can't be bothered to hack the source. There are certainly a lot of those.
Remember, servers are for the enjoyment of the players — if even one person cheats, it diminishes everyone's experience. Personally, I prefer that all the players have a good game where no one has any unfair advantages. If they can't have their custom renderer or cool skins, that's too bad; the stock ones are good enough for everyone else.
Stop the majority of cheaters or let the players customize their clients? It's a dilemma, that's for sure.
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Just a thought:
Soon after I started playing Tremulous I downloaded a pk3 which gave me an options menu in my client startup (ah, simpler times), but also (I did not realise) contained a mildly altered cgame and assets, which the pk3 maker had included to push his own version of alien radar (no, it wasn't Risujin). For months at a time, whenever I visited a certain server I found myself using an alien radar that gave me a significant advantage over my competitors. I of course had no idea why this was happening, I assumed it was a server setting. It was a long time before I realised that not everyone on that server had what I had. Later, I learnt about sv_pure, and checked, and sure enough it was off. For literally months I was cheating without even realising it.
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And another argument for the pure check: It keeps people from accidentally cheating, so they're sure to know what's right and what's
left wrong.
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What about just giving more choice then sv_pure 1 or 0... If a server wants sv_pure 1 they can use it. But enabling/disabling mini mods by moving files in and out of /base isn't really the best way...
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Then what do you suggest?
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Then what do you suggest?
Something like what has been described before, but more complex. When you connect to a server, after you download the required pk3s and the chosen optional ones, it tells what it allows to modify, like use custom 2D in HUD, models, model textures/skins, sounds, and optionally only with which .pk3s, like only that 1 sound mod or that funpack (in case a .pk3 has different mods it only loads what is allowed). If a server changes what it allows, you will be notified. The first time you connect you will be able to choose the mods; same interface should also be accessible from in game(with vid_restart when you click Apply changes) and main menu.
There the client can choose from a list of what mods are in base and are not disallowed, so if you have 3 mods for sounds, you can choose which sound mods to use.
You can save the preferences for that server, which you can load for other servers.
For interface: Just a list of what the allowed mods in your base folder change (like "All skins: default/funpack/custom" which would change the values of all skins; then 1 by 1 like marauder skin, rifle sound, jetpack sound), and you can click on the value to toggle it thru all options, or better yet, a drop down list. In case of custom 2D in HUDs it should list all HUDs that use only the allowed files. A small preview of the texture/model/HUD or a button to preview the chosen sound. At start all values would be default, so in case you don't want to spend any time, you can just click Apply or w/e.
This will allow much more and much easier customization, but won't make it easier to get aimbot/wallhack, so that moral protection stays. ::) Also servers can define more easily what they do and what they don't consider cheats.
I bet someone will want to say "why don't you do it?"
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I bet someone will want to say "why don't you do it?"
Of course.
[EDIT] It's hard to do, after all.
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What do you think, how many times more mods would have been made if we already had that feature since 1.1.0? Currently its either all or nothing, no other choice, and that has probably stopped many from making/releasing a small mod knowing that many will never use it and others will probably only try it once.
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nice mods
aka cheats.
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Life (TremFusion/FunPack/etc) is a mod of death (base), so life is a cheat if I follow your think.
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I like the reasoning behind pure, just dislike the, IMHO, poor execution of preventing it.
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nice mods
aka cheats.
paranoid
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Life (TremFusion/FunPack/etc) is a mod of death (base), so life is a cheat if I follow your think.
This is what Scientologists TremFusion users actually believe.
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I'm surprised about a comment :
You can be fairly certain that sv_pure is here to stay, for a multitude of sane reasons, other than the usual "we are from this group and we have the monopoly on what we think Tremulous should be" type of whining. Therefore, a discussion like this serves no purpose, as most of the people who are discussing it here will make no difference to the (possible) decision wether sv_pure will stay or not, or wether any server will disable it.
I think you're wrong and this post is very usefull, at two side:
- I'm a server administrator. I pay for a server. I'm happy to set, on the server I pay, config my players wants, not simply what I want.
My server is up to have players. Without players, my server will simply die. So, with this thread I see players opinion about sv_pure, and number of players annoyed by sv_pure because using minimods.
- I'm tremfusion developper. We debate, in tremfusion team, about sv_pure. The topic thread wasn't "look at tremfusion and look what good stuff we do and get tremfusion and ignore tremulous it's devil". This thread is "tremfusion opinion" simply because we have ideas, but we would like to know opinion about administrators and players. Tremulous forum isn't the best place to ask opinion and debate ?
There is very good suggestions in this thread, so we will probably take in consideration feedbacks to try to implement a sv_pure version really usefull for admins purpose (protect his server against cheats) and player purpose (be free to use what minimod they want, while it's not cheating)
and number of replies show us people (not only administrators) seems to be happy to give their opinion about sv_pure.
please continue to post your positive feedbacks :)
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Tremulous forum isn't the best place to ask opinion and debate ?
No, because this isn't Tremulous we're talking about, but a fork you may have heard of.
Allowing players to run their own mods can be easily done with Lakitu7's semipure code.
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as I said to rocinante in PM, "fork" tremfusion statut is pretty ambigous.
We talk about this with Benmachine yesterday in our channel, so please let me explain what we said:
- Like MG, we release other binaries and other mods than tremulous 1.1
- Like MG, we keep (and will also keep in future) binary compatibility with all released tremulous versions
- Like MG, we don't wait for official developpers and try to pull tremulous forward
- On the contrary to MG, we don't make only what official developpers need and we try to implement our own stuff.
"fork" is only a word, in any case, it's the same game, same players, and same community. So, we ask feedback for tremulous community.
If you refuse our commentaries, contributions and debates, so refuse modders constributions and debates too, because a mod isn't tremulous.
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Another similarity to MG, you have plans to take over the world. Just our plans are a (very old and lame) joke, yours seem slightly more real.
22:08 <@Amanieu> http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=9121.0
22:08 <@Amanieu> YOU HAVE GOT TO BE FUCKING KIDDING ME
22:16 < ianweller> Amanieu: huh?
22:17 <@Amanieu> They are a threat to our dominance
22:17 <@Amanieu> We integrate all their stuff
22:18 <@Amanieu> And then we release 0.0.3
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Amanieu is right, you seems to be a pretty funny guy.
You can toy with quotes, isolated and without any context. I come back to code, it seems very more constructive than trying to talk.
You react like a little frightened child.
I'm open to every discussion about tremulous, tremfusion, forking, and all you want in IRC (pm Azrael07 in freenode), but sorry, I havn't time to play to the better whiner.
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I'm glad Azrael showed up to talk about this. I'm also glad Amanieu brought this whole thing up. In various TremFusion discussion channels we've had heated debates about sv_pure, back and forth, where we range along the spectrum of feelings about sv_pure. When it comes down to it though, we would like to know everyone's opinion and feelings about it. It's also interesting to know people's feelings about TremFusion itself. TremFusion plans to maintain compatibility with Tremulous clients and servers - whether or not that constitutes a fork and whether or not that makes us evil and whether or not that means we should get out of the Tremulous forums still appears to be up in the air and subject to personal opinion. I'm working on setting up some forums of our own as it's been suggested that we leave this community. Until we start getting banned, or having some other obvious action taken against us for talking about TremFusion, I plan on still discussing it. But, we'll set up an area where we can talk about TremFusion-specific issues without bothering everyone else. Now back to the discussion at hand.
Reguardless of what Amanieu made the title, sv_pure effects Tremulous players, and I think a discussion on it rightly belongs here. I think, after reading everyone's opinions on it, I've come to the conclusion that the best way to go is leave sv_pure in place as a shield and as a restriction. I've always thought it's better to give server owners more control, as they are the ones bringing actual, monetary assets to the table. I think the issue is not about allowing modders to play on any server they want, but rather on making people aware and giving them a choice. If people had an easier way of telling which servers were sv_pure and which were not, we would probably see more communities built up around the non-sv_pure concept. Currently, you have to understand quite a bit about the game engine to know whether you want sv_pure or not. Also, you have to take the time to pick server, click a few places, wait for information to come back, and scroll through a list of server settings to find out if a server will allow you to play any mod you want or not. All of this makes it very hard to pick a server based on whether or not it will allow your new minimod. I believe that if I create a server browser page that has an icon indicating whether or not a server is pure, we would start to see communities built around non-sv_pure servers. Some people like mods. Some don't. Some people trust modders to not cheat. Others don't. Some servers operators like sv_pure, others don't. I don't think the question shouldn't be about which opinion is more right or wrong, or which should be coded into the game. I think that the game should offer up information and allow others to make a choice. As-is, I think many server owners will see sv_pure as "cheating enabled or disabled". That is fine if that's a personal opinion based around information. It's bad if it's an opinion based around inaccurate information.
Anyways, what this long-winded post is getting at is this: my solution to the sv_pure question is to make information on sv_pure much more prominent, change the name to something a little more educational, and cause servers to advertise in the server browser screen whether or not they allow mods. This way, the decision for server operators is clear, the decision for clients is clear, and everyone can get what they are looking for.
sv_pure = sv_allowUnsanctionedMods
-Ender
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Putting the responsibility to not use hacky mini-mods in the hands of the players will result in exactly the situation for which sv_pure 1 is the crude solution.
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Actually sv_restrict sounds like the best name for sv_pure. It restricts clients to using only a certain set of pk3s.
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Putting the responsibility to not use hacky mini-mods in the hands of the players will result in exactly the situation for which sv_pure 1 is the crude solution.
Lava, could you explain more?
Actually sv_restrict sounds like the best name for sv_pure. It restricts clients to using only a certain set of pk3s.
I agree. I think this is not so much an issue of whether or not the code should be in there, but about being clear to both users and server owners as to what they are doing when they opt-in for this option. Also, I think it'd be a good idea to change the default setting from sv_pure = 1 to sv_pure = 0. I realize that many people will have different ideas of what I mean by default setting, so to elaborate a bit, I mean that when you release a tremded binary you generally include a sample server configuration. I think the sample should have sv_pure/sv_restrict disabled.
-Ender
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Another similarity to MG, you have plans to take over the world. Just our plans are a (very old and lame) joke, yours seem slightly more real.
--- snip ---
And of course, MG speaks for ALL of the tremulous community.. Wait.. no it doesn't. It's just an elitist clique selfassigned to takeover and direct the development of future tremulous versions and as such trying to be the group that sanctions what is allowed and what not.. and abusing anyone that does have a different opinion or idea where everything is going. (Much like religious groups apparently)
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onozonozallmgrnazisonoz
and that's how each time one of them post he has to explicitly say that it's it's own personal opinion and not..this
yes, MG got a lot of influence here, mainly because They do stuff! instead of just complaining all the time, but most of them are quite open so I really don't see the point in whining about this here(oh wait, there's Khasla!)
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This is as a player, not moderator.
I believe I made the first suggestion that tremfusion get their own forums. Based on the statements of members of the tremfusion dev team that they are forking, aim to steal tremulous players (in affect, attempting to damage one free community for the furtherance of your own), intend to break compatibility when tremfusion has a sufficient player base ( as mentioned previously, by "stealing" tremulous players), etc, it does not seem unreasonable that I am bothered by the apparent attempt to damage one community solely to benefit your own. Personally, I have no real problem with forks if they are reasonable. But for gods sake, if you intend to stand on your own two feet, then do that. Attempting to benefit a community by actively damaging another is pretty low, and I've read too many statements that indicate to me that even if tremfusion now intends to maintain compatibility, I don't think I could accept that statement on its face considering there was once and may still be a stated intent to maintain community ties in order to further your own community at the express expense of another... People will do as they wish and go where they wish, including speaking their mind about your actions.
Now I see one member state you are forking, while another says you are not. And then an argument on semantics. I can't say its not, but I certainly can't say I'm not suspicious of the motives of a group who acts in such a manner. Perhaps if an honest and cohesive answer about the direction of tremfusion could be given it would have some meaning. Unfortunately, there has been so much damage done in terms of trust that I doubt anything but long term action will rebuild that bridge.
My thoughts about sv_pure are that members of the tremfusion team do not appear to remember the various pk3's that have been added to base by ignorant and/or uncaring admins that are then downloaded by everyone who connects, and loaded every time they connect to non-pure servers. People who have a large number of maps/base mods have a hell of a time tracking down which pk3 is causing these issues on non pure servers, particularly when there are multiple base/mod directories and the mod/map causing issues may have the same name as an existing one. super size tyrants? Various sound mods? A server running a mod out of the base directory? On a non-pure server it would be a no-brainer for a malicious/ignorant admin to create pk3's with a name that puts it in the front of the path list and is filled with bogus and/or messed up models/textures/etc that just happen to be named after all of the textures in ATCS, or whichever. sv_pure helps to maintain a consistent environment for all players within a server and across servers. Can it be broken? Sure, but you will have noone to blame but yourself when all sorts of crazy shit starts happening to your tremulous experience and the experience of those who visit your server, and any subsequent non pure server. If you are a coder and/or knowledgable about these things, it can be relatively simple to locate these problems. If you don't know how to find your qkey, you will have a hell of a time. Personally, I would prefer if people didn't have their tremulous installs ruined by visiting a server.
Not to mention that by bypassing pure, a client is actively cheating, or, going against the rules of the server operator.
Anyone remember mappers releasing different versions of a map, but with the same named pk3 file? unpure servers had a hell of a time with this, pure servers mostly didn't notice. On unpure servers, you would actually start playing on a map that differed from the map the server used. Quite confusing to say the least. How much of a problem this would appear to be would depend on how many and what kind of changes were made to the pk3.
I'll stop there for now.
Frankly, its more important that admins be aware of the kind of a mess that they can cause if they opt out of this option.
And Bissig, get a grip. There are members of MG who have been involved in some way in tremulous for more than 2 years now. We've been actively attempted to benefit the tremulous community for quite some time, it was part of our charter and continues to be an important aspect of the group. That some of us are vocal should be expected. That members of a group formed to benefit a community should become more deeply involved in that community should not be a surprise. People don't bother to say shit when MG members disagree with each other, but of course start this tired old crap whenever our individual voices show consensus, or should everyone who disagrees with you shut the hell up just because they happen to have other affiliations?
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Another similarity to MG, you have plans to take over the world. Just our plans are a (very old and lame) joke, yours seem slightly more real.
--- snip ---
And of course, MG speaks for ALL of the tremulous community.. Wait.. no it doesn't. It's just an elitist clique selfassigned to takeover and direct the development of future tremulous versions and as such trying to be the group that sanctions what is allowed and what not.. and abusing anyone that does have a different opinion or idea where everything is going. (Much like religious groups apparently)
Why do you hate MG so much? They are building tremulous and it is not a fork, it is the official continuation. So they don't need to take over anything. They are just a guild helping tremulous development and some members form a subgroup of the development team. Anyone can help it too.(but adding random crap is not helping, it must be coordinated)
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Seriously Bissig, cool it. We don't need to hear your age-old vendetta with MG. They contribute much more than any other guild so far (although I have high hopes for Void). Not to mention the fact that they're developing 1.2.
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And of course, MG speaks for ALL of the tremulous community.. Wait.. no it doesn't. It's just an elitist clique selfassigned to takeover and direct the development of future tremulous versions and as such trying to be the group that sanctions what is allowed and what not.. and abusing anyone that does have a different opinion or idea where everything is going. (Much like religious groups apparently)
Just because you got banned by a moderator for spouting off, who happens to be a MG member, doesn't make your wildass theories true. Stop spamming people's topics with your personal agenda, again.
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@tuple: had you read previous posts ? ...
I believe I made the first suggestion that tremfusion get their own forums. Based on the statements of members of the tremfusion dev team that they are forking, aim to steal tremulous players (in affect, attempting to damage one free community for the furtherance of your own), intend to break compatibility when tremfusion has a sufficient player base ( as mentioned previously, by "stealing" tremulous players), etc, it does not seem unreasonable that I am bothered by the apparent attempt to damage one community solely to benefit your own. Personally, I have no real problem with forks if they are reasonable. But for gods sake, if you intend to stand on your own two feet, then do that. Attempting to benefit a community by actively damaging another is pretty low, and I've read too many statements that indicate to me that even if tremfusion now intends to maintain compatibility, I don't think I could accept that statement on its face considering there was once and may still be a stated intent to maintain community ties in order to further your own community at the express expense of another... People will do as they wish and go where they wish, including speaking their mind about your actions.
About "stealing" players... yes, of course, we stole your players, players are simply cattle, and we are able to control as we wish.
And, of course, we start this debate only to steal your precious players.
As I said upper, we will not break binary and network compatibility, take this as an official announcement from tremfusion dev team.
Oh, and yes, I damage a community only for my benfit, yes, of course. I work 8 hours per day on a game developpement, only for my benefit, and only to steal your players and ruin tremulous and it's community. And I'm a terrorist too.
For a very long time ago we try to talk with your team. Amanieu had postulate in MG team for a long time ago, if I'm right you never accepted him (I'm not sure about this story, I can't remember very well).
I tried to take contact with you before tremfusion creation here http://www.mercenariesguild.net/forum/index.php?topic=909.0 (http://www.mercenariesguild.net/forum/index.php?topic=909.0)
Answer was very clear, kevlarman made a good summary : NO
And now we continue to try to talk, I open private message with all your guy to try to speak, debate, and explain my opinion to you.
And you continue to spit on me and on tremfusion team.
You don't think it's... too much ?
Now, quote-war time....
Now I see one member state you are forking, while another says you are not. And then an argument on semantics. I can't say its not, but I certainly can't say I'm not suspicious of the motives of a group who acts in such a manner. Perhaps if an honest and cohesive answer about the direction of tremfusion could be given it would have some meaning. Unfortunately, there has been so much damage done in terms of trust that I doubt anything but long term action will rebuild that bridge.
You really don't read posts.... Look upper, I explain all about "forking or not forking"... You want a simply reply "we fork" or "we don't fork" ? You will havn't. Instead, you have a full explanation about what we are and what we plane to do. As I said, "fork" is only a word.
My thoughts about sv_pure are that members of the tremfusion team do not appear to remember the various pk3's that have been added to base by ignorant and/or uncaring admins that are then downloaded by everyone who connects, and loaded every time they connect to non-pure servers. People who have a large number of maps/base mods have a hell of a time tracking down which pk3 is causing these issues on non pure servers, particularly when there are multiple base/mod directories and the mod/map causing issues may have the same name as an existing one. super size tyrants? Various sound mods? A server running a mod out of the base directory? On a non-pure server it would be a no-brainer for a malicious/ignorant admin to create pk3's with a name that puts it in the front of the path list and is filled with bogus and/or messed up models/textures/etc that just happen to be named after all of the textures in ATCS, or whichever. sv_pure helps to maintain a consistent environment for all players within a server and across servers. Can it be broken? Sure, but you will have noone to blame but yourself when all sorts of crazy shit starts happening to your tremulous experience and the experience of those who visit your server, and any subsequent non pure server. If you are a coder and/or knowledgable about these things, it can be relatively simple to locate these problems. If you don't know how to find your qkey, you will have a hell of a time. Personally, I would prefer if people didn't have their tremulous installs ruined by visiting a server.
Not to mention that by bypassing pure, a client is actively cheating, or, going against the rules of the server operator.
Anyone remember mappers releasing different versions of a map, but with the same named pk3 file? unpure servers had a hell of a time with this, pure servers mostly didn't notice. On unpure servers, you would actually start playing on a map that differed from the map the server used. Quite confusing to say the least. How much of a problem this would appear to be would depend on how many and what kind of changes were made to the pk3.
Is it simply a FUD or you really hadn't read previous posts ? So read first amanieu post and look what we did instead of sv_pure....
And Bissig, get a grip. There are members of MG who have been involved in some way in tremulous for more than 2 years now. We've been actively attempted to benefit the tremulous community for quite some time, it was part of our charter and continues to be an important aspect of the group.
And I do stuff for 2 years ago too... I created the french community website, qvm used on most part of french and italian servers, some patch used in every good servers. You think you are only one doing stuff ? This boad isn't the only one tremulous forum...
Oh, then, yes, Tremfusion will create its own forum, we work on it. And tremulous players, developpers and MG will be welcomed to talk, and to make criticize against tremfusion, if it's real debates and not only flaming like what you're currently doing. We don't try to kick away people simply because we don't agree with them, or because, so called, "it's not same game"
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Seriously Bissig, cool it. We don't need to hear your age-old vendetta with MG. They contribute much more than any other guild so far (although I have high hopes for Void). Not to mention the fact that they're developing 1.2.
Sure, and the pope is a weasel.
They host servers that claim to be development servers and are empty everytime I take a look at them in the server browser. They oppose anything that seems to be a none MG opinion. And members of that guild use their moderator status to enforce MG's view upon all of the tremulous community. Where the hell is the much acclaimed progress? "Jumpable barricades" - wow. And slow turrets. Great. And an unreadable font. Semipure of course is no cheat. Whereas things other people do to fix that stupid pure system are.
So, WHAT is MG doing FOR tremulous and not for their guild?
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Is it simply a FUD or you really hadn't read previous posts ? So read first amanieu post and look what we did instead of sv_pure....
I believe tuples was more refering to your idea of servers disabling sv_pure.
You have what? 5 users? 10? They will be fine, the other 20k will all be screwed by non-pure servers. (This is a number I pulled out of my arse based on ~8k unique players per day.)
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it would be helpful if all the sv_pure info in the trem universe were to be combined into a wiki page, there is too much stuff to sort through.
on http://www.tremfusion.net/trac/wiki/FeaturesList
"New sv_pure system"
and elsewhere, it wasn't clear what became of the sv_pure cvar: what effect does 1 and 0 have
are you saying that we should get rid of or keep the Official Trem sv_pure 1 effect as an option, maybe as option 2 instead of 1? (i'm using a fuzzy chain of thought)
if you were making the decision for the 1.2 release sv_pure system, would it be the same as fusion or different?
also, optional reading:
http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Pure_Servers
in the half-life universe, sv_pure is 0 by default, awareness of it is low, most people only think of the anticheat system which provides zero protections against the cheat artwork/models that sv_pure blocks.
sv_pure 1, uses server customizable restrictions
sv_pure 2, is 100% restricted.
no matter what half-life doesn't let servers muck around with already existing files, though servers can give useless data for a file that the client doesn't yet have, if the player goes to another server that needs the correct file the client will disconnect with a "differs from server" message instead of downloading it.
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Sure, and the pope is a weasel.
They host servers that claim to be development servers and are empty everytime I take a look at them in the server browser. They oppose anything that seems to be a none MG opinion. And members of that guild use their moderator status to enforce MG's view upon all of the tremulous community. Where the hell is the much acclaimed progress? "Jumpable barricades" - wow. And slow turrets. Great. And an unreadable font. Semipure of course is no cheat. Whereas things other people do to fix that stupid pure system are.
So, WHAT is MG doing FOR tremulous and not for their guild?
Like I said, they're developing 1.2. Just because the servers are empty when you look at them...
They only use their moderator status when arguments get out of control. Give me one example of a thread where you can honestly say they abused their powers.
Of course they oppose non-MG opinions. You oppose non-Bissig opinions. I oppose non-Syntac opinions.
As for the so-called "lack of progress": There are more changes than are noticeable from your clearly scant observations. Stability fixes. Balance adjustments. New features. You didn't take the time to wonder: "Is there more to this than meets the eye?"
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While I certainly don't agree with MG's 'we are Tremulous' attitude, I think Bissig is completely missing the mark with his retarded comments that only show what he is not doing for Tremulous.
Let us please keep on discussing sv_pure, instead of discussing wether we should wear tinfoil hats to protect ourselves against MG's plans for world domination.
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I re-added pure to Tremfusion with the sv_restricted cvar, because some good points for pure were brought up in this thread. However, it will be disabled by default.
http://www.tremfusion.net/hg/tremfusion/rev/ddea8bb4c259
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LOL As if server default values are important. Server admins change them anyway
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How about: sv_pure 0 does what it does now. sv_pure 1 does same. sv_pure 2 is client can do what they want.
Also, renaming sv_pure is basically breaking compatibility with 1.1.
What does the 1.1 client do if there is no sv_pure? Its part of getInfoResponse so therefore "guaranteed" to be there, so I would assume the behaviour in that case was never defined?
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The 1.1 client barely uses the value of sv_pure. All it looks at is sv_paks and sv_pakNames.