Author Topic: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure  (Read 83235 times)

googles

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2008, 08:32:49 pm »
I don't really understand why it is that the developers who have made good and responsible ideas don't seem to have had any problem working within sv_pure but only the guys who've made all sorts of nonsense declare it an evil hindrance to development.

Looks like it only hinders the bad developers, to me.

This is one post i have to disagree with, the community > initial developer. Without a community the developer wouldn't have anyone to develop for.

Odin

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2008, 08:33:54 pm »
if it wasn't for tremulous( or rather open source ) i wouldn't be able to learn the basics of C as easy as i could with tremulous, and the reason i still like to develop for tremulous is the amazing community. also, sv_pure is like putting a band-aid on shotgun wound :|
Better that than pouring salt on it.

fingered banana

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2008, 08:37:32 pm »
I don't really understand why it is that the developers who have made good and responsible ideas don't seem to have had any problem working within sv_pure but only the guys who've made all sorts of nonsense declare it an evil hindrance to development.

Looks like it only hinders the bad developers, to me.

This is one post i have to disagree with, the community > initial developer. Without a community the developer wouldn't have anyone to develop for.
What does this have anything to do with community? or you mean community of 5 people or so?

UniqPhoeniX

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2008, 08:39:45 pm »
What salt? Is a band aid on a shotgun wound AND all the limits that come with that band aid better then not having it?

Odin

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2008, 08:42:37 pm »
I have to say I am astonished at how googles is describing the Tremulous community. Apparently we are all cheaters who want nothing to do with the original developers and hate everything about Tremulous.

This is one of the greatest insults to the Tremulous community I've ever had the misfortune to read.

Quote
What salt? Is a band aid on a shotgun wound AND all the limits that come with that band aid better then not having it?
Yes. Most medical bandages contain a small amount of antibiotics these days, so, technically you have a better chance of healing a wound that size with a small bandage than not.

Superpie

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2008, 08:43:30 pm »
My opinion (please don't comment about how much you don't care about my opinion, because I like to voice it anyway) is that pure is fairly useless against anyone who wants to _cheat_ but still prevents small mods like new models and custom shaders. If I want to cheat, I won't edit the textures I have manually, I'll instead go download a free hack that does it for my while bypassing pure. It takes much less effort to download a cheat made by someone else that works on pure servers than it is to make dretches or something bright colors. Pure is stopping nothing but creativity.
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googles

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2008, 09:04:58 pm »
I wish i could use newer vm sets on pure servers :(

Lakitu7

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2008, 09:10:36 pm »
I wish i could use newer vm sets on pure servers :(

http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=9120.0

This release today was scheduled almost a week ago, I swear. :)

googles

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2008, 09:12:16 pm »
I want to use updated vms on ALL servers, and id also like to use my own shaders..
« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 09:15:28 pm by googles »

Lakitu7

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2008, 09:17:55 pm »
And I want world peace and a cure for AIDS and cancer.

Odin

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2008, 09:43:24 pm »
I want to use updated vms on ALL servers, and id also like to use my own shaders..
Unfortunately that's cheating.

Taiyo.uk

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2008, 09:57:15 pm »
sv_pure will not stop a determined cheater or griefer but it does keep games organised - it stops all the silly crap in peoples base folders from being loaded on "proper" games, and that is a Good Thing (tm). The game is only fair if all players are using the same assets.

Locking my doors and windows will not stop a determined thief. That does not mean that leaving them unlocked is a good idea.

googles

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2008, 10:46:50 pm »
I want to use updated vms on ALL servers, and id also like to use my own shaders..
Unfortunately that's cheating.

oh thats right, cheating is defined by the elite few. My bad...

David

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2008, 11:11:57 pm »
Just my opinion about how much sv_pure sux:
Quote
On my server, I chose what's allowed, so I either allow fun pack or I don't.
And you think the cheaters care if you 'disallow' something?
No, but if I don't disallow it, then it isn't cheating...

Quote
Which is exactly what sv_pure is designed to facilitate.
It fails to facilitate it. But it doesn't fail stopping modders.
Modders are doing fine.

Quote
Pure doesn't stop cheating.  That's impossible.  What it does is massively reduce cheating.
HAHAHAHAA. Massively my @$$. Maybe compared to a mosquito annoying the potential cheater... No wait it doesn't. I've seen enough cheaters to know that every douche who wants can and will get cheats and only IP/subnet ban stops them, not telling them that it's wrong. So sv_pure is useless at stopping cheating.
Ok fine, pure massively increases cheating, as without it there is no line to say what is cheating and what isn't.


Let me put it this way.  My objection isn't so much on technical grounds.  I know it can be avoided.  I've never looked into it myself, but people I trust say its easy, so I'll assume it is.  TremFusion themselves even distributed a pure hack at one point.
My objection is on a more "political" level.  Near where I live there's a road that would make a nice short but when I walk to some places.  But I go the long way, not because there are barriers or guards, but because of a no entry sign.  If that sign wasn't there, I would use it, and it would be legal.  As it is, it isn't legal, I know that, and as a responsible member of the community I respect that.
This is similar, although maybe a better metaphor would be a bolted-but-not-locked gate.  You can open it if you want, but know you shouldn't.
While I can open that gate and ignore the sign, it makes a line.  If you pass it you are wrong, if you don't you are fine.
Pure makes a very firm and easy to see line.  Without it its very open to interpretation, personal bias, and culture.  In some games I play, automation is embraced well beyond the point that would be accepted here.

Maybe a better solution would be to make a central service that lists all the mods, and let server "subscribe" to various category's, so I can say on my server that minor sound and model mods are allowed, but major ones aren't, and nothing that changes maps more than fps increase / decrease.  Of course such a thing would require a trusted 3rd party and some infrastructure, but IMO would be a better solution to your non-existent problem.

EDIT: oops page two..

googles:  Cheating isn't defined by "the elite few", it was defined by the developers, with a system in place for individual servers to redefine it.  If a server doesn't redefine it, then the default stands.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 11:16:16 pm by David »
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googles

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2008, 11:30:55 pm »
yeah..right......conforming to ones defined rule does not make the rule right...

David

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2008, 11:34:51 pm »
yeah..right......conforming to ones defined rule does not make the rule right...

The question is not if the rule is right, but what the rule is.  Also, usual blurb about "my house my rules".
Any maps not in the MG repo?  Email me or come to irc.freenode.net/#mg.
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My words are mine and mine alone.  I can't speak for anyone else, and there is no one who can speak for me.  If I ever make a post that gives the opinions or positions of other users or groups, then they will be clearly labeled as such.
I'm disappointed that people's past actions have forced me to state what should be obvious.
I am not a dev.  Nothing I say counts for anything.

Lakitu7

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #46 on: September 13, 2008, 11:36:29 pm »
Server owners pay the bill and that makes their rules right while you are using their server for free.

googles

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2008, 11:37:46 pm »
Server owners pay the bill and that makes their rules right while you are using their server for free.

^ gets it

Rocinante

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Re: Some guy's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2008, 12:08:01 am »
I'm glad to see the topic turning towards a useful discussion and away from a spamvertisement.  Though now that I'm back, I do have a couple comments:

Quote from: Various uninformed folk
Ignoring all the posts that are unneeded, I believe people are looking at TremFusion more than the topic at hand? (sv_pure)

This thread is intended to be feedback about sv_pure, but a bunch of trolls are trying to turn it into a discussion of how Tremfusion sucks.

Amanieu, you would be that troll.  If this was not supposed to have anything to do with your fork, then it should not have mentioned your fork in both the subject and the initial post.  You MADE this about your fork by bringing it up, otherwise it could have just as easily been "Amanieu's opinion considering sv_pure".  If there's any trolling going on here, you're the one piloting that boat with a fishing rod in hand.

Reason why amanieu won't win: Amanieu is not a moderator and since the the point of view conflicts with the ones OF the moderators this thread will most likely end up locked( by moderators that don't like their opinion questioned )

On the contrary; his point of view about sv_pure means nothing to me, and he is certainly entitled to it.  I would never ban him, or anyone else, or lock any threads by him or anyone else, simply because of their opinion about a Tremulous feature if brought up and discussed in a sane and rational manner.  However, if we're going to start advertising games which are priding themselves on being divergent from the parent source, then it's spam, it's crap, and it'll go in the trash pile since it doesn't belong here.  Otherwise I'll be happy to start posting links to a bunch of other games that have nothing to do with Tremulous - after all, how is spamming a fork any different than me advertising Stendhal?
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Bissig

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2008, 12:39:54 am »
And the MG Nazis strike again. They are the ones who define what is Tremulous and whats not (apparently).

David

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2008, 12:42:38 am »
And bissig posts a pointless attack to cover for his lack of ability to argue his flimsy point.  Again.
Any maps not in the MG repo?  Email me or come to irc.freenode.net/#mg.
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My words are mine and mine alone.  I can't speak for anyone else, and there is no one who can speak for me.  If I ever make a post that gives the opinions or positions of other users or groups, then they will be clearly labeled as such.
I'm disappointed that people's past actions have forced me to state what should be obvious.
I am not a dev.  Nothing I say counts for anything.

kevlarman

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2008, 12:47:55 am »
And the MG Nazis strike again. They are the ones who define what is Tremulous and whats not (apparently).
amanieu defined tremfusion as "not tremulous" himself, no one else.
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Ok let's plan it out. Asva, you are nub, go sit on rets, I will build, you two go feed like hell, you go pwn their asses, and everyone else camp in the hallway, roger?
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SlackerLinux

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #52 on: September 14, 2008, 01:37:27 am »
I have to say I am astonished at how googles is describing the Tremulous community. Apparently we are all cheaters who want nothing to do with the original developers and hate everything about Tremulous.

This is one of the greatest insults to the Tremulous community I've ever had the misfortune to read.

Quote
What salt? Is a band aid on a shotgun wound AND all the limits that come with that band aid better then not having it?
Yes. Most medical bandages contain a small amount of antibiotics these days, so, technically you have a better chance of healing a wound that size with a small bandage than not.

google never said that

And the MG Nazis strike again. They are the ones who define what is Tremulous and whats not (apparently).
amanieu defined tremfusion as "not tremulous" himself, no one else.

eventually tremfusion wont be compatible with tremulous until then there still just another tremulous client forking takes time and atleast we will get something new instead of tremulous slowly dying from lack of teamwork on humans OP goon and tyrant and a host of bugs (most thats been fixed and released by the community (alot from amanieu) )
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Odin

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2008, 02:21:32 am »
The only fork that ever got any real attention(and success) was X.org.

Quote
google never said that
You're misunderstanding my post. googles has been describing the Tremulous community as one that does not wish to adhere to rules and that the Tremulous community dislikes the dev team due to a so called "lack of 1.2." Anyone that has been playing Tremulous long enough to be a part of the community should be offended by this. Yes, I long for Tremulous 1.2 to come out but I know things take time especially for a ragtag team of devs who have never actually physically seen each other in person before, and are certainly not paid to develop Tremulous.

Snake

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2008, 04:58:53 am »
sv_Pure 1 as I see it is a kind of racism that dont want that the game itself advance, it may blocks the "bad cracks" but it still blocks so many stuff that can be useness for so many players like the playerst that speaks another language different than english. Another example is this guy who hate the arachnids... and he cant fix it, because it could be calling "cracking"

sv_pure 0 ftw!

EDIT: Oh BTW, if we talk about the "cracks" sv_pure can still be bypassed easily.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 05:00:27 am by Snake »
.

Odin

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #55 on: September 14, 2008, 07:18:05 am »
Wow. sv_pure is racism now?

What's next, it causes cancer?

Amanieu

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #56 on: September 14, 2008, 07:32:44 am »
sv_pure is DRM
Quote
< kevlarman> zakk is getting his patches from shady frenchmen on irc
< kevlarman> this can't be a good sign :P

UniqPhoeniX

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #57 on: September 14, 2008, 08:41:29 am »
sv_pure is DRM
Perfect comparison... doesn't stop those who want to bypass it and screws over those who want play with a few nice mods. And makes them choose an unofficial client.

Seffylight

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #58 on: September 14, 2008, 09:34:53 am »
sv_pure is DRM

Yeah! How dare those server owners that pay out the ass for the machines and bandwidth every month use sv_pure 1 to inhibit our right to use the mods we paid for on the game we paid for!

Oh. Oh wait. Nevermind.
Stop it. Seriously.

Amanieu

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Re: Tremfusion's opinion concerning sv_pure
« Reply #59 on: September 14, 2008, 09:38:16 am »
Yeah! How dare those server owners that pay out the ass for the machines and bandwidth every month use sv_pure 1 to inhibit our right to use the mods we paid for on the game we paid for!

Oh. Oh wait. Nevermind.
Perfect comparison... doesn't stop those who want to bypass it and screws over those who want play with a few nice mods. And makes them choose an unofficial client.
Quote
< kevlarman> zakk is getting his patches from shady frenchmen on irc
< kevlarman> this can't be a good sign :P