Author Topic: Can you think of any way to actually *measure* the qualities of a base?  (Read 8016 times)

zybork

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Hi there, playing around with base designs recently, I wondered if there might be a reasonable way to actually measure the self-defense capability of a base, being an indicator of how well the base is being built.

In tech/science, you usually try to eleminate variables that may be disturbing the result and standardize whatever you can. This is not easy for a surprisingly complex matter like a base in Tremulous, however, I would love to have such criteria to figure out reproducable and reliable figures in order to be able to tell something about the quality of a base.

here are my suggestions:

attacker specifications:
1a) Human attacker: equipment of choice, walking, not running (to get an easier to measure result) and may use the medkit
1b) Alien attacker: any class of choice, no trampling for tyrants, dragoons may pounce
1c) The penetrator may attack structures in his way as early as getting within range of defence structures, these are turrets, teslas, acid tubes, hives and trappers. Only from the moment such a structure triggers, long range weapons or barbs may be used.
1d) No retreat! The penetrator may not interrupt his attempt to destroy the enemy main structure, this is the alien must not get out of the base and wait for regeneration, the human must not go out of the base and wait until the medkit worked.

base specifications:
2g) All structures are allowed (stage 3), standard amount of build-points,
2h) human base: (the reactor,) two telenodes, one armoury, one medistation, if a defense computer is present, it must be well defended
2i) alien base: (the overmind), three eggs, at least one of them on the ceiling, one booster,
2j) at least one spawn must be covered by defense structures

the rest may be used for defense structures of any kind = all other structures

base penetration specifications:
In general: two things,
3q) one: the time it takes you from the time you first encounter a defense structure until you are able to bring down the main structure (reactor/overmind),
3r) second: how many health points you lose in doing so. The ratio time/healthpoints should be a good value to tell how effective a base is

Scope and results of this penetration test:
(:) Result: Time it takes, dead/health points left the moment the main structure is down, is structure down or not, examples:
Layout xy tyrant, 96 seconds, dead, failed
Layout yz battlesuit with luci and grenade, 23 seconds, 10hp, success
Layout zx goon+, 45 seconds, 1hp left, success
Layout wx battlesuit with saw and grenade, 27 seconds, dead, success
(+) This test should provide you with valuable information on how easy it is to get into a base of a certain layout.
(~) For the human base, half the time a machine gun turret need to make a 180° may be subtracted from the time.
(-) This test must of course be repeated for I would say at least three times if penetrating in the same direction.
(:) Always the best result counts
(-) You need to set up your own local server for this kind of test.

... okay, this is moreless it. If you have any suggestions to make the process more significant or if you see any major flaw in this test, please let me know. If I figured out a usable procedure to perform such tests, I shall configure my own server and run some tests.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2009, 08:44:41 am by zybork »
I have retired from Tremulous. Definetely. If you play a game just because it has become a habit, but u'r only feeling like a kindergarten teacher - well, maybe I am just getting too old (hell, I was a teenager when DukeNukem3D was *new*) - it's probably not a bad idea to just let it be. And I do.

Don't take this personally. Have fun, guys.

Amanieu

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    • Amanieu
Re: Can you think of any way to actually *measure* the qualities of a base?
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2009, 08:41:25 am »
Throw bots at it and see how long it survives
Quote
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< kevlarman> this can't be a good sign :P

zybork

  • Posts: 400
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Re: Can you think of any way to actually *measure* the qualities of a base?
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2009, 08:47:28 am »
I guess it will take a pretty long time until a bot reaches even average levels human players do, for exactly this is the awesome thing about Tremulous: A good aim alone is not enough.
I have retired from Tremulous. Definetely. If you play a game just because it has become a habit, but u'r only feeling like a kindergarten teacher - well, maybe I am just getting too old (hell, I was a teenager when DukeNukem3D was *new*) - it's probably not a bad idea to just let it be. And I do.

Don't take this personally. Have fun, guys.

nubcake

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Re: Can you think of any way to actually *measure* the qualities of a base?
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2009, 08:58:15 am »
The best way to test a base is to get a couple of players to try and kill the base with mara then goon. I instantly can tell when there is an American builder on my team when they clump 4 or 5 turrets at the entrances then leave the RC undefended. My priorities always are

1) RC cannot be killed from mara/goon pouncing on it
2) Arm cannot be killed directly from snipes at sudden death
3) Turrets are not placed so humans need to jump/use stamina to get around them
4) one node per 4 players on the team

zybork

  • Posts: 400
  • Turrets: +68/-72
Re: Can you think of any way to actually *measure* the qualities of a base?
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2009, 09:07:36 am »
(Thumbs up for that "American builder" ;D You in fact always play against such guys for some reason, no matter in which team they are...)

Well, I have similar rules of thumb for base-building, but such rules alone don't make a good base. In fact, it is a bit tricky to tell if a base is good or not, what is exactly why I think about a useable method to measure this.
I have retired from Tremulous. Definetely. If you play a game just because it has become a habit, but u'r only feeling like a kindergarten teacher - well, maybe I am just getting too old (hell, I was a teenager when DukeNukem3D was *new*) - it's probably not a bad idea to just let it be. And I do.

Don't take this personally. Have fun, guys.

Archangel

  • Guest
Re: Can you think of any way to actually *measure* the qualities of a base?
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2009, 11:00:20 am »
I must play on decent servers, cause usually the people who build bad bases have massive pings, and are typically Polish.

Basically, watch the best clans of your area. There is typically one valid base per team that is the most efficient/well performing.

Dracone

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Re: Can you think of any way to actually *measure* the qualities of a base?
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2009, 07:53:09 pm »
It's very very simple really for the human base. There's very little thought to how you measure how good a base is. It all comes down to how many different alien approaches it can stop. Ex. RC hops, turret surfing, jumping in behind weak spots, and of course, full on direct assaults. Of course, you'd judge how well the base stops the last of those by how many turrets can focus fire on those enemies out front.

It's obviously extremely difficult to get an absolute balance of capabilities for killing off all the different approaches with high efficiency. Which is why, for example, no one ATCS base has been made that can match the qualities of any base specialized with specific alien approaches in mind.

Don't forget, also, that unless you're playing on some fucked high BP server, anything more than just 1 goon will rape any base faster than you can get back to your base after going out with all your firepower, which is more often than not necessary in any balanced, tactical game. Unless of course you're pussies who never leave your base for more than 5 seconds because you're paranoid that your base is going to die. Risks have to be taken.
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Caveman

  • Guest
Re: Can you think of any way to actually *measure* the qualities of a base?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2009, 08:28:21 pm »
What good does this measuring do?
You can not judge the base w/o the players and vice versa.

The base either stands up to it's task (supporting the team) or it does not. There are to many human variables in this measurement to be calculable.

Bissig

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Re: Can you think of any way to actually *measure* the qualities of a base?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2009, 10:07:49 pm »
Maybe it is easier to calculate bad bases.. meaning, calculate how many rets are cramped together and will blow up if one of them explodes. How far from the reactor turrets are, how much BP is concentrated outside of the inner base range etc.. Then take this value x and do (x^-1)*100.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2009, 10:13:36 pm by Bissig »

F50

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Re: Can you think of any way to actually *measure* the qualities of a base?
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2009, 08:16:42 pm »
I think that human bases should be measured in several categories based on attack type. If the weakness of a base is recognized, the players *may* be able to compensate, particularly for RC pounce. A base left alone will not protect itself. Also, even if a base may take a shorter time to die via pounce (often one of the fastest way to kill a human base, and quite effective against the most common bases on ACTS), it may be the better base if it is more resistant to slow-death via sniping and ranting. Especially if a human standing around with a prifle could likely handle the pounce with little damage to the RC.

Dretch (nearly all 1.1 bases are dretch-safe): either pass or fail, a dretch should not survive long enough to kill a human (full hp) when inside the base (may be restricted to S2 or S3 in 1.2).

Hop/pounce: The number of turrets that are attacking the best position on top (or behind!) the reactor as a goon/mara/basi (three separate categories).

Snipe: Rets, Arm, dcc (if not being used as a barricade :P), and RC should require an advanced goon to expose itself to attack (by defenders in the base) if it wishes to snipe. The longer the goon has to be exposed in order to get two sniping shots at these structures (separate categories for each structure) the better.

Ret integrity: How many rets can be line munched or surfed? (also hop-zapped by mara in 1.2).

Ret rant: If a rant wishes to destroy any one ret in the formation, how many hitpoints must it lose?



I don't think you can measure a base just by how long it takes to rush. Human bases are meant to remain intact. A slow-death is still a death.
"Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice." -- Grey's Law


frazzler

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Re: Can you think of any way to actually *measure* the qualities of a base?
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2009, 08:26:06 am »
Throw bots at it and see how long it survives

holy shit. That's Signature worthy.
Throw bots at it and see how long it survives
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