Author Topic: Not Just A Theory  (Read 87470 times)

Winnie the Pooh

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #60 on: September 17, 2009, 09:56:06 pm »
Lets see....

Winnie the Pooh has -

1 ) A book
2 ) A jar of honey given to him by his friend Piglet

Scientists have -

1 ) Fossils
2 ) Anatomy
3 ) Paleontology
4 ) Geology
5 ) Geochronology
6 ) Genetics
7 ) Radiocarbon dating
8 ) Phylogenetics
9 ) Probably more overlapping life science disciplines with evidence I can't think of at this moment

"So really, your guess is as good as mine and it's a race to see who can come up with the more solid evidence."

We're winning the race, Pooh.


So far, you have yet to disprove the two points I'm pushing so I don't want to hear any dumb unproven comments like that.
Quote
I also realize that this is the internet, but even more so this is the forum for a video game on an internet, then even beyond that this is TREMULOUS forums the Satan version of all video game forums for a video game that is ON the internet.

beerbitch

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #61 on: September 17, 2009, 10:02:39 pm »
Lets see....

Winnie the Pooh has -

1 ) A book
2 ) A jar of honey given to him by his friend Piglet

Scientists have -

1 ) Fossils
2 ) Anatomy
3 ) Paleontology
4 ) Geology
5 ) Geochronology
6 ) Genetics
7 ) Radiocarbon dating
8 ) Phylogenetics
9 ) Probably more overlapping life science disciplines with evidence I can't think of at this moment

"So really, your guess is as good as mine and it's a race to see who can come up with the more solid evidence."

We're winning the race, Pooh.


So far, you have yet to disprove the two points I'm pushing so I don't want to hear any dumb unproven comments like that.

How about you ? You can say all you want about the Earth's rotation, but can you disprove all the 140+ years of experimentally and empirically observed evidence in these subjects ?

1 ) Fossils
2 ) Anatomy
3 ) Paleontology
4 ) Geology
5 ) Geochronology
6 ) Genetics
7 ) Radiocarbon dating
8 ) Phylogenetics

Don't worry, once I have more time then I do now for reply-on-the-fly I'll get back to your rotation argument.
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beerbitch

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #62 on: September 17, 2009, 10:05:45 pm »
I should add that if a designer is consistent, wouldn't it make logical sense that there is a natural explanation for your Earth rotation scenario ? Given the fact that we have all this other observable evidence showing us an old Earth ?
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BeerBastard

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #63 on: September 17, 2009, 10:06:49 pm »


"Hey, do you believe that the theory of evolution is true? YOU DO? But do you have absolute proof? YOU DON'T?

Wait wait wait..

isn't that..

..faith?

So really, your guess is as good as mine and it's a race to see who can come up with the more solid evidence.


Maybe you don't understand the difference between the piles of evidence evolution has vs absolutely no evidence you have.
I can site genetics, comparitive anotomy, biology...the list goes on that show proof of evolution in one way or another and it all fits together.

Where is your evidence of this intelligent being?

HOWEVER, Christians like myself try to associate things like this with the Bible instead of trying to conjugate a guess from what we see now. So you see, we do have an idea of what we believe and we don't have "blind faith" in the Bible. God doesn't ask that much of us and anyway, it's irrational.

And I also haven't said a single word about "intelligent design". Rather I said that I believe the moon (not to mention the entire universe) was put into motion by an intelligent being, which is perfectly acceptable.

Edit:

Also, Beerb!itch, you have yet to explain the moon evidence.

As for the moon, the proof doesn't lie on us. It lies on you. To prove 2 things.

1. That the moon has always orbited the earth.
2. That the speed at which the earth is slowing down, would mean the earth can't be 4.5 billion years old. (if it just means 4.5 billion years ago our days were 16hours long, it doesn't prove the earth isn't that old)

Here is another rebuttal of it  -

#20 taken from this page - http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/howgood-yea2.html

Quote
Presently, the earth's rotation is slowing down 0.005 seconds per year per year (Thwaites and Awbrey, 1982, p.19). At least Dr. Hovind doesn't use the horrendous rate of 1 second per year which Dr. Walter Brown employed as a result of a total misunderstanding of time keeping. I believe that Dr. Brown discarded that argument upon realizing his error, but don't expect it to disappear from the creationist literature. Only a towering optimist could expect that!

The actual rate of 0.005 seconds per year per year yields, if rolled back 4.6 billion years, a 14-hour day. The subject is a bit tricky the first time around, and I'm indebted to Thwaites and Awbrey (1982) whose fine article cleared away the cobwebs.

Let's do the calculation for 370 million years ago:

((0.005 sec/yr) x (370 million yr))/Year = (1,850,000 sec)/Year
= (21.4 days)/Year

Thus, at 370 million years ago, the earth had 21.4 extra days per year.

The total days then per year were: (365.25 + 21.4)days/Year = 386.65 days/Year.

(8766 hrs/Year)/(386.65 days/Year) = 22.7 hrs/day

If you do the same calculations for 4.6 billion years ago, you'll get the 14 hrs/day given by Drs. Thwaites and Awbrey. Thus, there is no problem here for mainstream science. Indeed, the present rate may be too high:

    ...the correct present rate of slowing of the earth's rotation is excessively high, because the present rate of spin is in a resonance mode with the back-and-forth

    motion of the oceans' waters in the ocean basins. In past ages when the rotation rate was faster, the resonance was much less or nonexistent, resulting in a much more gradual slowing of the rotation rate. The most recent calculations indicate that the earth could be 4 to 5 billion years old and not have been spinning excessively fast or requiring the moon to be any closer to the earth than 225,000 kilometers (140,000 miles).

    (Sonleitner, 1991, file=MOVIE2.WP)

A study of rugose corals from the Devonian (370 million years ago), initiated by John W. Wells of Cornell University in 1963, indicated that the year then had 400 days of about 22 hours each. For a discussion of coral clocks see Dott & Batten (1976, pp.248-249). Subsequent work with corals of Paleozoic, Mesozoic, and modern origin have produced highly revealing, if approximate, results.

    Determinations of the same kind were made for algal deposits (stromatolites) of the Upper Cambrian (-510 m.y.) (Pannella et al., 1968). Plots of the collected data for the entire time span from Recent back through the Paleozoic Era showed a nonuniform increase in days per month going back in time, and from this it is inferred that tidal friction has not been uniform in that period.

    (Strahler, 1987, p.147)

Studies of the chambered nautilus, for a time, was also proposed as a geologic clock by Kahn and Pompea. However, that effort ran into problems. Creationists still cite it in their efforts to discredit the coral clocks. Each case, of course, has to be judged on its own merits. The nautilus is not a coral, and the coral clocks are good enough to destroy the young-earth claims.

From the present slowing down of the earth's spin we get a day of 22.7 hours 370 million years ago; 370 million years ago is the approximate radiometric date of those rugose corals. And, a study of the rugose corals confirms that the day then was about 22 hours long. In this example we have a remarkable, if rough, agreement between two, diverse dating methods.

These facts spell "Old Earth."






You have completely ignored what my brother did post on the subject. It also gives more crediability to radiometric dating.

"From the present slowing down of the earth's spin we get a day of 22.7 hours 370 million years ago; 370 million years ago is the approximate radiometric date of those rugose corals. And, a study of the rugose corals confirms that the day then was about 22 hours long. In this example we have a remarkable, if rough, agreement between two, diverse dating methods.

These facts spell "Old Earth."
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-[OPP]Beerbastard

Winnie the Pooh

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #64 on: September 17, 2009, 10:11:05 pm »
How about you ? You can say all you want about the Earth's rotation, but can you disprove all the 140+ years of experimentally and empirically observed evidence in these subjects ?

1 ) Fossils
2 ) Anatomy
3 ) Paleontology
4 ) Geology
5 ) Geochronology
6 ) Genetics
7 ) Radiocarbon dating
8 ) Phylogenetics

Don't worry, once I have more time then I do now for reply-on-the-fly I'll get back to your rotation argument.

Would you like to start with fossils then? By all means, show us all the evidence from fossils!

At the very least, please quote it from your essay. It's very long and you know it better than me.

And, sure I'll wait for you. No rush. You have all the time in the world.

Edit (to your second post):

What other evidence shows that the earth is old? Please don't hesitate to share.

Also, don't forget about the moon argument that you keep avoiding/forgetting.

2nd Edit (to beerbustard):

Maybe you don't understand the difference between the piles of evidence evolution has vs absolutely no evidence you have.
I can site genetics, comparitive anotomy, biology...the list goes on that show proof of evolution in one way or another and it all fits together.

Where is your evidence of this intelligent being?

As for the moon, the proof doesn't lie on us. It lies on you. To prove 2 things.

1. That the moon has always orbited the earth.
2. That the speed at which the earth is slowing down, would mean the earth can't be 4.5 billion years old. (if it just means 4.5 billion years ago our days were 16hours long, it doesn't prove the earth isn't that old)

Then please, site this irrefutable evidence that I was unaware of.

"Where is your evidence of this intelligent being?"

It's all around us. Take for example, chlorophyll, the substance which makes plant leaves green.

Chlorophyll is vital for photosynthesis, which allows plants to obtain energy from light.
Chlorophyll molecules are specifically arranged in and around pigment protein complexes called photosystems which are embedded in the thylakoid membranes of chloroplasts. In these complexes, chlorophyll serves two primary functions. The function of the vast majority of chlorophyll (up to several hundred molecules per photosystem) is to absorb light and transfer that light energy by resonance energy transfer to a specific chlorophyll pair in the reaction center of the photosystems. Because of chlorophyll’s selectivity regarding the wavelength of light it absorbs, areas of a leaf containing the molecule will appear green.

The two currently accepted photosystem units are Photosystem II and Photosystem I, which have their own distinct reaction center chlorophylls, named P680 and P700, respectively.[2] These pigments are named after the wavelength (in nanometers) of their red-peak absorption maximum. The identity, function and spectral properties of the types of chlorophyll in each photosystem are distinct and determined by each other and the protein structure surrounding them. Once extracted from the protein into a solvent (such as acetone or methanol),[3][4][5] these chlorophyll pigments can be separated in a simple paper chromatography experiment, and, based on the number of polar groups between chlorophyll a and chlorophyll b, will chemically separate out on the paper.
The function of the reaction center chlorophyll is to use the energy absorbed by and transferred to it from the other chlorophyll pigments in the photosystems to undergo a charge separation, a specific redox reaction in which the chlorophyll donates an electron into a series of molecular intermediates called an electron transport chain. The charged reaction center chlorophyll (P680+) is then reduced back to its ground state by accepting an electron. In Photosystem II, the electron which reduces P680+ ultimately comes from the oxidation of water into O2 and H+ through several intermediates. This reaction is how photosynthetic organisms like plants produce O2 gas, and is the source for practically all the O2 in Earth's atmosphere. Photosystem I typically works in series with Photosystem II, thus the P700+ of Photosystem I is usually reduced, via many intermediates in the thylakoid membrane, by electrons ultimately from Photosystem II. Electron transfer reactions in the thylakoid membranes are complex, however, and the source of electrons used to reduce P700+ can vary.

The electron flow produced by the reaction center chlorophyll pigments is used to shuttle H+ ions across the thylakoid membrane, setting up a chemiosmotic potential mainly used to produce ATP chemical energy, and those electrons ultimately reduce NADP+ to NADPH a universal reductant used to reduce CO2 into sugars as well as for other biosynthetic reductions.

Reaction center chlorophyll-protein complexes are capable of directly absorbing light and performing charge separation events without other chlorophyll pigments, but the absorption cross section (the likelihood of absorbing a photon under a given light intensity) is small. Thus, the remaining chlorophylls in the photosystem and antenna pigment protein complexes associated with the photosystems all cooperatively absorb and funnel light energy to the reaction center. Besides chlorophyll a, there are other pigments, called accessory pigments, which occur in these pigment-protein antenna complexes.

It's unthinkable to believe that a system as complicated from this arose from chance.

Also, if plants are a common ancestor, why has chlorophyll been discarded from the animal kingdom? I know some very good instances in which chlorophyll would be helpful (energywise).
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 10:25:23 pm by Winnie the Pooh »
Quote
I also realize that this is the internet, but even more so this is the forum for a video game on an internet, then even beyond that this is TREMULOUS forums the Satan version of all video game forums for a video game that is ON the internet.

BeerBastard

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #65 on: September 17, 2009, 10:13:38 pm »
How about you ? You can say all you want about the Earth's rotation, but can you disprove all the 140+ years of experimentally and empirically observed evidence in these subjects ?

1 ) Fossils
2 ) Anatomy
3 ) Paleontology
4 ) Geology
5 ) Geochronology
6 ) Genetics
7 ) Radiocarbon dating
8 ) Phylogenetics

Don't worry, once I have more time then I do now for reply-on-the-fly I'll get back to your rotation argument.

Would you like to start with fossils then? By all means, show us all the evidence from fossils!

At the very least, please quote it from your essay. It's very long and you know it better than me.

And, sure I'll wait for you. No rush. You have all the time in the world.

Edit (to your second post):

What other evidence shows that the earth is old? Please don't hesitate to share.

Also, don't forget about the moon argument that you keep avoiding/forgetting.
We both addressed the moon arguement. We can't have a rational scientific debate if you just refuse to even acknowledge when we address something you post.
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-[OPP]Beerbastard

BeerBastard

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #66 on: September 17, 2009, 10:14:39 pm »


"Hey, do you believe that the theory of evolution is true? YOU DO? But do you have absolute proof? YOU DON'T?

Wait wait wait..

isn't that..

..faith?

So really, your guess is as good as mine and it's a race to see who can come up with the more solid evidence.


Maybe you don't understand the difference between the piles of evidence evolution has vs absolutely no evidence you have.
I can site genetics, comparitive anotomy, biology...the list goes on that show proof of evolution in one way or another and it all fits together.

Where is your evidence of this intelligent being?

HOWEVER, Christians like myself try to associate things like this with the Bible instead of trying to conjugate a guess from what we see now. So you see, we do have an idea of what we believe and we don't have "blind faith" in the Bible. God doesn't ask that much of us and anyway, it's irrational.

And I also haven't said a single word about "intelligent design". Rather I said that I believe the moon (not to mention the entire universe) was put into motion by an intelligent being, which is perfectly acceptable.

Edit:

Also, Beerb!itch, you have yet to explain the moon evidence.

As for the moon, the proof doesn't lie on us. It lies on you. To prove 2 things.

1. That the moon has always orbited the earth.
2. That the speed at which the earth is slowing down, would mean the earth can't be 4.5 billion years old. (if it just means 4.5 billion years ago our days were 16hours long, it doesn't prove the earth isn't that old)

Here is another rebuttal of it  -

#20 taken from this page - http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/howgood-yea2.html

Quote
Presently, the earth's rotation is slowing down 0.005 seconds per year per year (Thwaites and Awbrey, 1982, p.19). At least Dr. Hovind doesn't use the horrendous rate of 1 second per year which Dr. Walter Brown employed as a result of a total misunderstanding of time keeping. I believe that Dr. Brown discarded that argument upon realizing his error, but don't expect it to disappear from the creationist literature. Only a towering optimist could expect that!

The actual rate of 0.005 seconds per year per year yields, if rolled back 4.6 billion years, a 14-hour day. The subject is a bit tricky the first time around, and I'm indebted to Thwaites and Awbrey (1982) whose fine article cleared away the cobwebs.

Let's do the calculation for 370 million years ago:

((0.005 sec/yr) x (370 million yr))/Year = (1,850,000 sec)/Year
= (21.4 days)/Year

Thus, at 370 million years ago, the earth had 21.4 extra days per year.

The total days then per year were: (365.25 + 21.4)days/Year = 386.65 days/Year.

(8766 hrs/Year)/(386.65 days/Year) = 22.7 hrs/day

If you do the same calculations for 4.6 billion years ago, you'll get the 14 hrs/day given by Drs. Thwaites and Awbrey. Thus, there is no problem here for mainstream science. Indeed, the present rate may be too high:

    ...the correct present rate of slowing of the earth's rotation is excessively high, because the present rate of spin is in a resonance mode with the back-and-forth

    motion of the oceans' waters in the ocean basins. In past ages when the rotation rate was faster, the resonance was much less or nonexistent, resulting in a much more gradual slowing of the rotation rate. The most recent calculations indicate that the earth could be 4 to 5 billion years old and not have been spinning excessively fast or requiring the moon to be any closer to the earth than 225,000 kilometers (140,000 miles).

    (Sonleitner, 1991, file=MOVIE2.WP)

A study of rugose corals from the Devonian (370 million years ago), initiated by John W. Wells of Cornell University in 1963, indicated that the year then had 400 days of about 22 hours each. For a discussion of coral clocks see Dott & Batten (1976, pp.248-249). Subsequent work with corals of Paleozoic, Mesozoic, and modern origin have produced highly revealing, if approximate, results.

    Determinations of the same kind were made for algal deposits (stromatolites) of the Upper Cambrian (-510 m.y.) (Pannella et al., 1968). Plots of the collected data for the entire time span from Recent back through the Paleozoic Era showed a nonuniform increase in days per month going back in time, and from this it is inferred that tidal friction has not been uniform in that period.

    (Strahler, 1987, p.147)

Studies of the chambered nautilus, for a time, was also proposed as a geologic clock by Kahn and Pompea. However, that effort ran into problems. Creationists still cite it in their efforts to discredit the coral clocks. Each case, of course, has to be judged on its own merits. The nautilus is not a coral, and the coral clocks are good enough to destroy the young-earth claims.

From the present slowing down of the earth's spin we get a day of 22.7 hours 370 million years ago; 370 million years ago is the approximate radiometric date of those rugose corals. And, a study of the rugose corals confirms that the day then was about 22 hours long. In this example we have a remarkable, if rough, agreement between two, diverse dating methods.

These facts spell "Old Earth."






You have completely ignored what my brother did post on the subject. It also gives more crediability to radiometric dating.

"From the present slowing down of the earth's spin we get a day of 22.7 hours 370 million years ago; 370 million years ago is the approximate radiometric date of those rugose corals. And, a study of the rugose corals confirms that the day then was about 22 hours long. In this example we have a remarkable, if rough, agreement between two, diverse dating methods.

These facts spell "Old Earth."

You didn't even read my post, why don't you try and post some evidence.
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mooseberry

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #67 on: September 17, 2009, 10:16:40 pm »
And you have no evidence for this "intelligent designer", therefore it isn't science. Something looking like it could be "intelligent" isn't prove of intelligence. You have just stated your belief, a belief without evidence, which means based on faith. Faith means you believe in it in absence of proof.

You are assuming the Moon has always been there.

Hey, do you believe that the theory of evolution is true? YOU DO? But do you have absolute proof? YOU DON'T?

Wait wait wait..

isn't that..

..faith?


By that reasoning pretty much every single thing in the world would be faith (hint, it's not.) There is plenty of evidence for evolution if you look, and I suppose you also think that it's only faith that keeps us from floating away from the ground. (Gravity is still relativly unknown.)
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beerbitch

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #68 on: September 17, 2009, 10:19:08 pm »
Winnie - can you please clarify this statement :

Quote
Lord Kelvin (the 19th-century physicist who introduced the Kelvin temperature scale) used this slowing rotation as a reason why the earth could not be very old. The decline in rotation rate is now known to be greater than previously thought (Thomas G. Barnes, "Physics: A Challenge to ‘Geologic Times,’ " Impact 16, July 1974).

Exactly what slow down rate are we talking about here ?

Beerbitch - "Some days you're the pigeon, other days you're the statue"

Winnie the Pooh

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #69 on: September 17, 2009, 10:37:37 pm »
By that reasoning pretty much every single thing in the world would be faith (hint, it's not.) There is plenty of evidence for evolution if you look, and I suppose you also think that it's only faith that keeps us from floating away from the ground. (Gravity is still relativly unknown.)

Hey, Moose, do you know what habits are?

Habits are built from doing something the first time over and over again.

For example, If I decide to bungee jump, it takes a tremendous amount of faith to believe that you are not going to die the first time har har har. But the second time around, it takes less faith doesn't it? By your 20th bungee jump, you should be very confident and used to the scary feeling.

Your faith has sewn a habit.

Hey, when you turn on the car, do you have faith that it's not going to explode when you turn the key? Of course! But it's subconscious. That's why you don't even think about it.

First times require faith. After it becomes a habit, faiths is subconscious.

@Beerb!itch: He's referring to the rate of the slowing of the rotation of the earth. E.G. Leap second.

Sorry for the unclearness but you know.. Lord Kelvin is kind of old and I don't expect you to take 19th century evidence as evidence for a 21th century world.
Quote
I also realize that this is the internet, but even more so this is the forum for a video game on an internet, then even beyond that this is TREMULOUS forums the Satan version of all video game forums for a video game that is ON the internet.

beerbitch

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #70 on: September 17, 2009, 10:42:15 pm »
By that reasoning pretty much every single thing in the world would be faith (hint, it's not.) There is plenty of evidence for evolution if you look, and I suppose you also think that it's only faith that keeps us from floating away from the ground. (Gravity is still relativly unknown.)

Hey, Moose, do you know what habits are?

Habits are built from doing something the first time over and over again.

For example, If I decide to bungee jump, it takes a tremendous amount of faith to believe that you are not going to die the first time har har har. But the second time around, it takes less faith doesn't it? By your 20th bungee jump, you should be very confident and used to the scary feeling.

Your faith has sewn a habit.

Hey, when you turn on the car, do you have faith that it's not going to explode when you turn the key? Of course! But it's subconscious. That's why you don't even think about it.

First times require faith. After it becomes a habit, faiths is subconscious.

@Beerb!itch: He's referring to the rate of the slowing of the rotation of the earth. E.G. Leap second.

Sorry for the unclearness but you know.. Lord Kelvin is kind of old and I don't expect you to take 19th century evidence as evidence for a 21th century world.

I just want a number. You say its a simple matter of math, well then lets see the numbers. Am I asking too much ? What is the rate of declining rotation according to Thomas G. Barnes ? And has this number been agreed upon by modern scientists today ?

Quote
Sorry for the unclearness but you know.. Lord Kelvin is kind of old and I don't expect you to take 19th century evidence as evidence for a 21th century world.

I will if its valid evidence. There is a high chance that data from that time was updated or revised though, which is what I'm trying to figure out otherwise how can I come up with a rebuttal ?

Saying "Thomas G. Barnes said this in a book, now counter" is not going to fly all by itself you know.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 10:44:26 pm by beerbitch »
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tuple

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #71 on: September 17, 2009, 10:43:00 pm »
It's unthinkable to believe that a system as complicated from this arose from chance.

Also, if plants are a common ancestor, why has chlorophyll been discarded from the animal kingdom? I know some very good instances in which chlorophyll would be helpful (energywise).

This is a good example of an Argument from Ignorance which is a Logical Fallacy

These are not meant to be insults, that's actually its name :)

beerbitch

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #72 on: September 17, 2009, 10:46:09 pm »
Perhaps a simple Google search could have helped answer this question :

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=evolution%20of%20animals%20and%20chlorophyll


« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 10:51:24 pm by beerbitch »
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Winnie the Pooh

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #73 on: September 17, 2009, 10:47:45 pm »
@Tuple: That's one of the reasons I believe in intelligent design: Because my mind has accepted the fact that something so complicated can't arise from chance and I urge you to consider it too.

Edit:

@Beerb!itch:

Sorry, but what are you trying to prove about my chlorophyll fact?

A google search to understand what?

You're confusing me.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 10:51:32 pm by Winnie the Pooh »
Quote
I also realize that this is the internet, but even more so this is the forum for a video game on an internet, then even beyond that this is TREMULOUS forums the Satan version of all video game forums for a video game that is ON the internet.

beerbitch

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #74 on: September 17, 2009, 10:53:25 pm »
@Tuple: That's one of the reasons I believe in intelligent design: Because my mind has accepted the fact that something so complicated can't arise from chance and I urge you to consider it too.

Edit:

@Beerb!itch:

Sorry, but what are you trying to prove about my chlorophyll fact?

A google search to understand what?

You're confusing me.

I saw a snowflake under a microscope once, and it sure looked complex. But I know it was formed using a natural process and can be explained as such.
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beerbitch

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #75 on: September 17, 2009, 10:54:43 pm »
@Tuple: That's one of the reasons I believe in intelligent design: Because my mind has accepted the fact that something so complicated can't arise from chance and I urge you to consider it too.

Edit:

@Beerb!itch:

Sorry, but what are you trying to prove about my chlorophyll fact?

A google search to understand what?

You're confusing me.

Apologies, the Google link has studies related to chlorophyll and its evolution, and I bet if you looked really hard using the Scholar search feature you could find some studies done about animals and where we diverged from plants in this regard.

Like this one :

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/318/5848/245

Beerbitch - "Some days you're the pigeon, other days you're the statue"

Winnie the Pooh

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #76 on: September 17, 2009, 10:57:35 pm »
The way I look at it is: The snowflake was designed beautifully and is created easily through natural processes. That a design like that comes from chance is not likely. Of course, it happens all the time so there's not much to argue about here. I just look at it as another fact that this world was intelligently designed.

Edit: I g2g, sry dun tink ai ehm teh chickeningz outzorz k?

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I also realize that this is the internet, but even more so this is the forum for a video game on an internet, then even beyond that this is TREMULOUS forums the Satan version of all video game forums for a video game that is ON the internet.

beerbitch

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #77 on: September 17, 2009, 11:00:40 pm »
The way I look at it is: The snowflake was designed beautifully and is created easily through natural processes. That a design like that comes from chance is not likely. Of course, it happens all the time so there's not much to argue about here. I just look at it as another fact that this world was intelligently designed.

Edit: I g2g, sry dun tink ai ehm teh chickeningz outzorz k?

B B L

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tuple

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #78 on: September 17, 2009, 11:23:21 pm »
@Tuple: That's one of the reasons I believe in intelligent design: Because my mind has accepted the fact that something so complicated can't arise from chance and I urge you to consider it too.

Ironically, that is what an argument from ignorance is.  That one theory lacks evidence is not evidence of the validity another theory.

This is the whole problem of the evolution/ID argument.  Evolution theory rests on a large amount of empirical evidence.  ID belief (it is not technically a theory as I have yet to see empirical evidence for it) relies on punching holes, or more appropriately pointing out existing holes in the theory of evolution.  BUT, lack of proof of evolution is not proof of ID in and of itself.

This rhetorical problem is not unique to the evolution/ID arguments and in fact ALL scientific theories are held to this standard.  It is not proof that your argument is true because I don't have proof of my argument.  We could both very well be wrong.



beerbitch

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #79 on: September 17, 2009, 11:33:14 pm »
@Tuple: That's one of the reasons I believe in intelligent design: Because my mind has accepted the fact that something so complicated can't arise from chance and I urge you to consider it too.

Ironically, that is what an argument from ignorance is.  That one theory lacks evidence is not evidence of the validity another theory.

This is the whole problem of the evolution/ID argument.  Evolution theory rests on a large amount of empirical evidence.  ID belief (it is not technically a theory as I have yet to see empirical evidence for it) relies on punching holes, or more appropriately pointing out existing holes in the theory of evolution.  BUT, lack of proof of evolution is not proof of ID in and of itself.

This rhetorical problem is not unique to the evolution/ID arguments and in fact ALL scientific theories are held to this standard.  It is not proof that your argument is true because I don't have proof of my argument.  We could both very well be wrong.




How does that saying go ?

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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #80 on: September 18, 2009, 12:23:46 am »
Ironically, that is what an argument from ignorance is.  That one theory lacks evidence is not evidence of the validity another theory.

This is the whole problem of the evolution/ID argument.  Evolution theory rests on a large amount of empirical evidence.  ID belief (it is not technically a theory as I have yet to see empirical evidence for it) relies on punching holes, or more appropriately pointing out existing holes in the theory of evolution.  BUT, lack of proof of evolution is not proof of ID in and of itself.

This rhetorical problem is not unique to the evolution/ID arguments and in fact ALL scientific theories are held to this standard.  It is not proof that your argument is true because I don't have proof of my argument.  We could both very well be wrong.

You're right, that whole chlorophyll thing isn't exactly evidence for either of our theories, I was just sharing a window into how I think.

Also, I haven't presented any evidence for the ID theory mostly because most of my time is spent striking down the evidence these guys bring up.
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I also realize that this is the internet, but even more so this is the forum for a video game on an internet, then even beyond that this is TREMULOUS forums the Satan version of all video game forums for a video game that is ON the internet.

beerbitch

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #81 on: September 18, 2009, 12:30:00 am »
Ironically, that is what an argument from ignorance is.  That one theory lacks evidence is not evidence of the validity another theory.

This is the whole problem of the evolution/ID argument.  Evolution theory rests on a large amount of empirical evidence.  ID belief (it is not technically a theory as I have yet to see empirical evidence for it) relies on punching holes, or more appropriately pointing out existing holes in the theory of evolution.  BUT, lack of proof of evolution is not proof of ID in and of itself.

This rhetorical problem is not unique to the evolution/ID arguments and in fact ALL scientific theories are held to this standard.  It is not proof that your argument is true because I don't have proof of my argument.  We could both very well be wrong.

You're right, that whole chlorophyll thing isn't exactly evidence for either of our theories, I was just sharing a window into how I think.

Also, I haven't presented any evidence for the ID theory mostly because most of my time is spent striking down the evidence these guys bring up.

I still want some free bacon. I can has bacon ?

I think, evidence aside, we may end up just having to agree to disagree on the whole ID thing.

Revi gave me some good links to read of Behe's work which I was going to check out, then perhaps I will have more to say on the subject.
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Bissig

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #82 on: September 18, 2009, 01:06:56 am »
Cut the little kid some slack! Obviously the Space Shuttle and other complex obejcts only exist in our imagination, how else can something as complex as those machines exist? Oh wait, right, god created them.

How can people be so ignorant and blatantly dumb?

Hey Winnie:

Guess what:

From simple to medium complex to very complex -> self organizing systems. In your arguing there can't be higher math, its just too complex for your little inferior brain.

Winning the jackpot in the lottery isn't likely either, still it happens. God, how can someone be so simple minded and BLIND.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 01:10:09 am by Bissig »

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #83 on: September 18, 2009, 03:35:05 am »
Point 1: Just because y'all dont agree with Winnie doesn't mean you should flame him.

Point 2: The nature of science today is that when we want to believe in something, and refuse to believe in a different theory, then we will find any and all evidence we can to support our theory, but ignore any evidence for the other theory, therefore making it seem like out theory has all the evidence. This is just such a case. So, in all reality, we aren't gonna convince anyone here of anything, so this can possibly do is degenerate into a flamewar sooner or later.


P.S. I am a firm believe in Intelligent Design btw, and If I could find that book I have that has a bunch of evidence for it, I'd post some of the stuff, but I seem to have misplaced it......Anyways, please try to stop trolling/flame anyone else who isn't interested in a serious discusion.
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mooseberry

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #84 on: September 18, 2009, 03:41:54 am »
...Anyways, please try to stop trolling/flame anyone else who isn't interested in a serious discusion.

While I agree less flame in this thread would be nice, would you not agree that people are somewhat setting themselves up for flames if they post in this thread "[not] interested in a serious discusion."
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beerbitch

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #85 on: September 18, 2009, 04:33:11 am »
...Anyways, please try to stop trolling/flame anyone else who isn't interested in a serious discusion.

While I agree less flame in this thread would be nice, would you not agree that people are somewhat setting themselves up for flames if they post in this thread "[not] interested in a serious discusion."

Yes, lets please keep it civil if possible.  :police:


« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 04:41:13 am by beerbitch »
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BeerBastard

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #86 on: September 18, 2009, 06:24:59 am »
Point 1: Just because y'all dont agree with Winnie doesn't mean you should flame him.

Point 2: The nature of science today is that when we want to believe in something, and refuse to believe in a different theory, then we will find any and all evidence we can to support our theory, but ignore any evidence for the other theory, therefore making it seem like out theory has all the evidence. This is just such a case. So, in all reality, we aren't gonna convince anyone here of anything, so this can possibly do is degenerate into a flamewar sooner or later.


P.S. I am a firm believe in Intelligent Design btw, and If I could find that book I have that has a bunch of evidence for it, I'd post some of the stuff, but I seem to have misplaced it......Anyways, please try to stop trolling/flame anyone else who isn't interested in a serious discusion.

Your point two is not what science does, it's what believers of Intelligent design. Real scientists have something called the scientfic method, then peer review. Before anything even makes it in for a chance at being published. You prove our case with this.

"The nature of science today is that when we want to believe in something, and refuse to believe in a different theory, then we will find any and all evidence we can to support our theory, but ignore any evidence for the other theory,"

That isn't what science is doing, it's what the creationist/intelligent designers do.

Let me fix your sentence so those who don't know you are lieing about science understand.

"The nature of creationists/ID today is that when we want to believe in something, and refuse to believe in a different theory, then we will find any and all evidence we can to support our theory, but ignore any evidence for the other theory," (What you really said)

P.S. I am a firm believe in Intelligent Design btw, and If I could find that book I have that has a bunch of evidence for it, I'd post some of the stuff, but I seem to have misplaced it......Anyways, please try to stop trolling/flame anyone else who isn't interested in a serious discussion.

An alleged "book" doesn't prove anything. This book has to be credible, scientifically published. A theory backed by evidence(not a hypothesis). And it can't have not been refuted with new scientific evidence. I doubt you have such a book.
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Nux

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #87 on: September 18, 2009, 05:05:24 pm »
People aren't inherently stupid.

Most of you who agree with the concept of evolution will not have seen the evidence for yourself.

It would be very difficult to come to modern scientific conclusions without 'taking their word for it' somewhere along the way. Wikipedia is a good place to start as it usually provides citations throughout the article.

Keeping your post short is sometimes tough when you have a lot to say but is worth considering since then people will actually read it.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 06:10:32 pm by Nux »

beerbitch

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #88 on: September 18, 2009, 05:58:33 pm »
People aren't inherently stupid.

Most of you who agree with the concept of evolution will not have seen the evidence for yourself.

It would be very difficult to come to modern scientific conclusions without taking 'taking their word for it' somewhere along the way. Wikipedia is a good place to start as it usually provides citations throughout the article.

Keeping your post short is sometimes tough when you have a lot to say but is worth considering since then people will actually read it.

As a rule of thumb, when I'm researching something like biology or evolution I try and read publications that reference or cite related scientific studies that I can also read. When reading sites like AiG it gets pretty easy to see they are opinion pieces since they don't actually publish any peer reviewed studies and often don't even reference them.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2009, 06:12:18 pm by beerbitch »
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KamikOzzy

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Re: Not Just A Theory
« Reply #89 on: September 18, 2009, 06:16:34 pm »
Of course I take others' words for good many times. Every time I open a textbook that's exactly what I'm doing. The question becomes "whose word is worth accepting?" I place my bets on science, seems how religion is a crock of shit.
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