Re: 1.2 Gameplay Changes derails into dev cycle

[Bissig]

I think Ozzy overestimates the amount of REALLY unique players per day. It is at most around 1000-2000. Since like in any medium (yes even youtube, otherwise vids with 16 million views would also have 16 million comments), you always only get a very small amount of people to actively do anything or participate in a community. Most people, myself including, usually don't take part in any community. We might have one or two communities we actually do take part in, but most people aren't even that "active".

Also, the amount of players on the dev servers depend on many things. F.e. I had the impression that for quite some time, the euro servers proofed to be more successful. I also get the feeling that more euro players play all in all on the public servers than americans. I think most american players have moved on to new, shinier games.

[AppleJuice]

Ozzy, wtf are you talking about? The past 10 or so times I've played on the dev servers, the games were larger than 4v4 (I'd say at least 7v7), and they were fucking fun as hell. You don't really have an argument, because you yourself admitted you haven't really played 1.2 (for the same reason you haven't played X). However, 1.2 != X -- I really believe these changes were not made haphazardly (even more so after playing with them more), and the end result is a game that is much more fun to play. I even like the tyrant charge attack now, and I hated it at first.

Second of all, what is it with you and jerks? Everyone is not out to get you. I've found the devs pretty helpful in answering all my lazy questions (ones that could have been answered just by reading stuff online). You really need to get over yourself, and stop being offended so easily.

Third, it's very easy to find the dev servers, even though they don't have boxes. Probably because I'm not a retard.

Fourth, I've heard so many players (IN-GAME) talking about 1.2 dev games since last summer. To say that no one outside of these forums knew about them is ridiculous. Try leaving your server for once (well, not now, since most other servers are dead...but before, when they had good populations/clan matches).

@Tskuzzy Yes and no - I'm not sure balancing a game for newbies would work out, but maybe it could, if the devs were very careful.

P.S. I'm pretty sure St. Anger did that during Zubs, which, iirc, was before the stagedown stuff (August 2008?) -- a long time ago. Being out of the loop != lack of information disseminated. There have been so many posts about it since then, and for a forum junkie like yourself, missing them would have been almost impossible. I smell an excuse.

Anyway, after playing with the changes more, I like a lot of them. I still think the goon's pounce is a *little* overpowered. I'd rather have an overpowered chomp than an overpowered pounce, because chomping takes more skill. I'd also prefer it if humans had more stamina, but that might make them overpowered. I guess that's something best left for the beta release. Btw, dretches are awesome, gj.

Edit: Actually, the tyrant's charge might be a little overpowered now, but I haven't played as a chainsuit yet.

[KamikOzzy]

I guess you are all STILL thinking I mean you did something wrong. I'm saying it's impossible to receive the kind of feedback that you really wanted, not that you should have done X to get it.

/ignore apple

[AppleJuice]

/ignore logic

[KamikOzzy]

Nah, just /ignore people who like to post just to get me worked up.

[AppleJuice]

This has nothing to do with you, for the last time. You really think too highly of yourself. I'm somewhat defending 1.2 (which I really hope happens) from your baseless and misinformed attacks (even though they don't really need me to).

[KamikOzzy]

they don't really need me to.

Exactly, but you join in because I am here. Thinking highly of myself has nothing to do with it, but it's pretty obvious when people are implicitly addressing me by using my exact language in their response, or by saying "Ozzy," in their posts.

[AppleJuice]

I *am* addressing you...because you're the one making the arguments that I find to be untrue (about the clan scene's opinion, dev games, information dissemination, balance changes, X server comparisons, etc). If someone else made an argument I disagreed with, I would address them as well, unless someone addresses them first. The devs can't really argue with you about the clan scene, but I can.

...(saying "Ozzy" in my posts is explicit, not implicit)

[KamikOzzy]

...(saying "Ozzy" in my posts is explicit, not implicit)

No shit, it was meant to be that way.

You can argue with me about the clan scene, but that doesn't make you right, and I play much more than you do, especially lately. If you really want...here goes:

Ozzy, wtf are you talking about? The past 10 or so times I've played on the dev servers, the games were larger than 4v4 (I'd say at least 7v7), and they were fucking fun as hell.

What I'm getting at is that its in a scrim/pickup game style because of the focus of players who attend, rather than the half-team-filled-with-noobs that we will see on an everyday basis. 7v7 isn't any different, unless you're trying to make the game specifically for clan matches, which just don't happen like they used to.

Second of all, what is it with you and jerks? Everyone is not out to get you. I've found the devs pretty helpful in answering all my lazy questions (ones that could have been answered just by reading stuff online). You really need to get over yourself, and stop being offended so easily.

You don't even know what anyone has said to me, because you were not there. I have spoken privately with a few of the people in this thread.

Third, it's very easy to find the dev servers, even though they don't have boxes. Probably because I'm not a retard.

didn't say it was hard to find if you were looking for it, I said it was hard to notice. It was hard for *me* to find beacuse I was looking for MG Development Server. Also, the svn server doesn't even show up on a stock 1.1 client.

Fourth, I've heard so many players (IN-GAME) talking about 1.2 dev games since last summer. To say that no one outside of these forums knew about them is ridiculous. Try leaving your server for once (well, not now, since most other servers are dead...but before, when they had good populations/clan matches).

Again, there are a lot of people who know they exist, fewer who take them seriously, and fewer still who actually attend. If the topic has 50000+ views and everyone's talking about it, and they're taking it seriously: why can you only come up with 14 players on a weekend? I pulled like 50 players out of my ass to have a custom map day by spreading the word around actively.

@Tskuzzy Yes and no - I'm not sure balancing a game for newbies would work out, but maybe it could, if the devs were very careful.

It would be possible, but not probable, since they don't have newbies that attend dev games. Especially not now that they're on SVN.

P.S. I'm pretty sure St. Anger did that during Zubs, which, iirc, was before the stagedown stuff (August 2008?) -- a long time ago. Being out of the loop != lack of information disseminated. There have been so many posts about it since then, and for a forum junkie like yourself, missing them would have been almost impossible. I smell an excuse.

Re-read my shit, I knew they were going on all along. Many others did not, but I did. I was definitely well-informed that they intended to make the next version, and that it was being tested, but I didn't think it was actually going to happen.

It wasn't a /ignore logic but a /ignore useless banter. *you* are the one who thinks too highly of himself.

[StevenM]

meh, played at the 1.2 dev servers. didnt like the changes and quite frankly, didnt bother to voice my opinion because i think either id get flamed by the devs or they simply dont rly care. fact is tremulous sucks and is dying. 1.2 shouldve been released 2 years ago.

[elmo*USA]

meh, played at the 1.2 dev servers. didnt like the changes and quite frankly, didnt bother to voice my opinion because i think either id get flamed by the devs or they simply dont rly care.

Thats pretty much how i felt about it.

[David]

For those saying there weren't many people, there were ~5k unique GUID's from ~11k IPs on us1 alone.

EDIT:  I mean usdev1, not us1.

[Rocinante]

fact is tremulous sucks and is dying. 1.2 shouldve been released 2 years ago.

Thats pretty much how i felt about it.

Well then you don't need to have accounts on here whining about it, do you?  Go ahead and open your profile, click on "delete this account", and we'll be happy to remove it.

[Jedarus]

For those saying there weren't many people, there were ~5k unique GUID's from ~11k IPs on us1 alone.

Over how long?

[David]

Since MG starting running the server, so a long time.

Monthly breakdown:

Code: [Select]

Year-Month    GUID's     IP's
07-12:        41         72
08-01:        324        641
08-02:        385        762
08-03:        326        596
08-04:        382        742
08-05:        346        657
08-06:        477        931
08-07:        462        766
08-08:        270        497
08-09:        192        357
09-01:        1011       2024
09-02:        276        445
09-03:        226        402
09-04:        228        259
09-05:        313        320
09-06:        273        399
09-07:        322        534
09-08:        275        473
09-09:        224        382
09-10:        239        429

Note:  These figures are probably a bit out around the place, worked out by the date on the logfile, not the dates in the log file.  The log scripts have at times been not running for a few days etc, and I wouldn't be surprised if the last day of the month is getting attributed to the following month etc.

EDIT:
Thanks to kevlarman: 2004 guids and 4559 ips on edev, but probably over a much shorter period.  Sadly no way to tell how much overlap between the two.

[Luigi1]

Ozzy: Is that suppose to be a lot?

[AppleJuice]

No wonder I missed it; different forum

Anyway,

...(saying "Ozzy" in my posts is explicit, not implicit)

No shit, it was meant to be that way.

Don't blame me for reading what you wrote (incorrect grammar is not my fault)

You can argue with me about the clan scene, but that doesn't make you right, and I play much more than you do, especially lately. If you really want...here goes:

Actually, I'm not so sure you've played more than I have. You certainly idle in your server more than anyone else. I saw you play maybe 3-4 times during all of July-August. Then again, I usually don't play with 200 pingers, so I probably missed you. And you probably missed me. Pointless to argue about.

Besides, playing more does not mean you have a better understanding of the game than anyone else does; playing with the right mindset does.

Ozzy, wtf are you talking about? The past 10 or so times I've played on the dev servers, the games were larger than 4v4 (I'd say at least 7v7), and they were fucking fun as hell.

What I'm getting at is that its in a scrim/pickup game style because of the focus of players who attend, rather than the half-team-filled-with-noobs that we will see on an everyday basis. 7v7 isn't any different, unless you're trying to make the game specifically for clan matches, which just don't happen like they used to.

I'd much rather play a game balanced for relatively small (I don't even think 7v7 is small -- you're too used to 10v10 on ATCS in AA), skilled games rather than huge, filled-with-noobs games. I would consider a game balanced only if it is balanced for the upper levels of gameplay, not the lower ones.

Second of all, what is it with you and jerks? Everyone is not out to get you. I've found the devs pretty helpful in answering all my lazy questions (ones that could have been answered just by reading stuff online). You really need to get over yourself, and stop being offended so easily.

You don't even know what anyone has said to me, because you were not there. I have spoken privately with a few of the people in this thread.

You have a history of taking offense over nothing.

Third, it's very easy to find the dev servers, even though they don't have boxes. Probably because I'm not a retard.

didn't say it was hard to find if you were looking for it, I said it was hard to notice. It was hard for *me* to find beacuse I was looking for MG Development Server. Also, the svn server doesn't even show up on a stock 1.1 client.

Boxes are ugly and allow for limited choice in server name. They also look like bugs. I don't blame them for not wanting to use them (plus, they can't fit the entire name -- what would they use, BOXBOXBOXMG?)

Fourth, I've heard so many players (IN-GAME) talking about 1.2 dev games since last summer. To say that no one outside of these forums knew about them is ridiculous. Try leaving your server for once (well, not now, since most other servers are dead...but before, when they had good populations/clan matches).

Again, there are a lot of people who know they exist, fewer who take them seriously, and fewer still who actually attend. If the topic has 50000+ views and everyone's talking about it, and they're taking it seriously: why can you only come up with 14 players on a weekend? I pulled like 50 players out of my ass to have a custom map day by spreading the word around actively.

Why have so many (not all, I know) of the old, skilled players stopped playing 1.1? Because it's boring and old. Whenever I load tremmaster.quakedev.net, I almost never see anyone online with whom I want to play. I can use the same logic you are using. People don't really take 1.1 seriously (aside from all the vocal dissenters on these forums).

Besides, what's bad about playing with 14 people? That felt like a lot to me. Again, you're probably too used to 10v10s.

@Tskuzzy Yes and no - I'm not sure balancing a game for newbies would work out, but maybe it could, if the devs were very careful.

It would be possible, but not probable, since they don't have newbies that attend dev games. Especially not now that they're on SVN.

I still don't think balancing a game for new players would work. Personally, I'd rather play a challenging game with a good learning curve rather than an easy game in which I start owning after a week.

Re-read my shit, I knew they were going on all along. Many others did not, but I did. I was definitely well-informed that they intended to make the next version, and that it was being tested, but I didn't think it was actually going to happen.

Um, how do you reconcile that statement with this:

The planned dev games topic has like 3000 views, but I'm sure everyone that goes to the dev games has viewed it many times themselves. Other than that topic, I've never heard a thing about 1.2 testing until I kinda started a shitstorm about it recently.

Again, as I said, for a forum junkie like yourself, not hearing a thing about 1.2 testing until now is suspect.

Maybe you should try actually...playing 1.2? I have never seen you play in their server; 1.2 now is not the same as it was 1 year ago. Seriously. Everything feels better (though there are still some things I don't agree with, which I will mention after the beta release [so they hopefully change it])...especially sprint toggling and dodging.

[A Spork]

I think AppleJuice Is most certainly right.
Ozzy, quit yer whining and play the dang game.

[danmal]

Everything feels better (though there are still some things I don't agree with, which I will mention after the beta release [so they hopefully change it])...especially sprint toggling and dodging.

I'm pretty sure Tremulous is in feature freeze at the moment which makes it doubtful that any game play changes are going to be introduced at this point in time. I definitely wouldn't wait until after beta if I were you to report anything other then bugs.

[KamikOzzy]

Last one of these I'm doing publicly because it amounts to little more than an ego-match that has little to nothing to do with my opinions of the dev cycle and much more to do with personal attacks. If you reply I will PM you a response if you like.

Don't blame me for reading what you wrote (incorrect grammar is not my fault)

No, my grammar was correct for the way I wanted it to sound. The use of "implicit" was to be sarcastic and understated.

Besides, playing more does not mean you have a better understanding of the game than anyone else does; playing with the right mindset does.

There's no way to debate who plays with the right mindset.

I'd much rather play a game balanced for relatively small (I don't even think 7v7 is small -- you're too used to 10v10 on ATCS in AA), skilled games rather than huge, filled-with-noobs games. I would consider a game balanced only if it is balanced for the upper levels of gameplay, not the lower ones.

I'm not speaking of the size of matches which I prefer, I'm speaking of the size of games which I am likely to see. If everyday games are 10vs10, then that's what I'd like the game to be balanced for. I have trouble seeing that changing, although it would be nice.

You have a history of taking offense over nothing.

I don't even know what this is reference to, so meh. I'm aware I over-involve myself sometimes, but you're no different.

Boxes are ugly and allow for limited choice in server name. They also look like bugs. I don't blame them for not wanting to use them (plus, they can't fit the entire name -- what would they use, BOXBOXBOXMG?)

I don't see how this is in response to what I said, but boxes aren't the problem. Maybe add some coloring or simply name it Development Server so it didnt run right in with the default server name. Playing on the SVN servers requires an entirely different client, and none of those servers use any boxes, so this has become entirely irrelevant now.

Why have so many (not all, I know) of the old, skilled players stopped playing 1.1? Because it's boring and old. Whenever I load tremmaster.quakedev.net, I almost never see anyone online with whom I want to play. I can use the same logic you are using. People don't really take 1.1 seriously (aside from all the vocal dissenters on these forums).

Besides, what's bad about playing with 14 people? That felt like a lot to me. Again, you're probably too used to 10v10s.

Nah, you can't use the same logic because it doesn't make any fucking sense in that context. Wearing something out (1.1) and not believing something will happen (1.2) are two separate things. I think there are many reasons old players have quit playing. In fact, the biggest split I ever saw was unlagged, which effectively divided the community in half. Kinda foreshadows for me what's about to come. Sometimes even good change (not implying 1.2 balance changes are good) can suck for the community.

Again, it has nothing to do with my preference but my anticipation of what games will be like. If I could have an eternal 5v5 pickup game I sure would, but it's not going to happen.

I still don't think balancing a game for new players would work. Personally, I'd rather play a challenging game with a good learning curve rather than an easy game in which I start owning after a week.

Funny, I think so too. However, that seems to be the exact opposite of what they're doing by taking the classes that are powerful but tricky to master and putting them into common but different use, like the basilisk.

Re-read my shit, I knew they were going on all along. Many others did not, but I did. I was definitely well-informed that they intended to make the next version, and that it was being tested, but I didn't think it was actually going to happen.

Um, how do you reconcile that statement with this:

The planned dev games topic has like 3000 views, but I'm sure everyone that goes to the dev games has viewed it many times themselves. Other than that topic, I've never heard a thing about 1.2 testing until I kinda started a shitstorm about it recently.

Because in the second one I was talking about hearing it from the players in game, which would demonstrate a general knowledge of 1.2, and in the first I was talking about hearing it for myself on the forums. Interesting how in the second quote you didn't bold OTHER THAN THAT TOPIC which makes it have an entirely different meaning.

Maybe you should try actually...playing 1.2? I have never seen you play in their server; 1.2 now is not the same as it was 1 year ago. Seriously. Everything feels better (though there are still some things I don't agree with, which I will mention after the beta release [so they hopefully change it])...especially sprint toggling and dodging.

Do you even have a client capable of playing on the svn server? You seemed to ignore my earlier mention of it. We did come back to it and play a bit recently (after the 1.2 gameplay changes topic) and realized wowdamn it's for serious and it's sucky. I'm not going to spend more time playing it, because I do not like it at initial feel, I do not feel my input has any value to those in charge, I plan to run a mod that rolls back all the balance changes, and most of all I am against the method of its release. I'm done defending why I don't play 1.2, I've explained it in too many topics and to too many different people. You don't tell someone the only reason they don't like counter strike is because they haven't played it enough.

You seem to just read bits of my posts and attack things mindlessly; it's a waste of both our time. Having not slept all night, I'm done for a while.

[David]

Everything feels better (though there are still some things I don't agree with, which I will mention after the beta release [so they hopefully change it])...especially sprint toggling and dodging.

I'm pretty sure Tremulous is in feature freeze at the moment which makes it doubtful that any game play changes are going to be introduced at this point in time. I definitely wouldn't wait until after beta if I were you to report anything other then bugs.

It's new features and stupid changes that have delayed it thus far, and they are now in a full freeze to get the damn thing out.  So nothing new non bug fix will be getting done prior to beta.

[AppleJuice]

Last one of these I'm doing publicly because it amounts to little more than an ego-match that has little to nothing to do with my opinions of the dev cycle and much more to do with personal attacks. If you reply I will PM you a response if you like.

How is this an ego match? I think we are reading two different arguments. Again, get over yourself. I'm not attacking you; I'm arguing about your opinions.

No, my grammar was correct for the way I wanted it to sound. The use of "implicit" was to be sarcastic and understated.

Nope. Re-take an SAT writing course.

I'm not speaking of the size of matches which I prefer, I'm speaking of the size of games which I am likely to see. If everyday games are 10vs10, then that's what I'd like the game to be balanced for. I have trouble seeing that changing, although it would be nice.

You have a point there, but I think it is very possible to limit the size of public games (limit the amount of player slots and just create more servers).

You have a history of taking offense over nothing.

I don't even know what this is reference to, so meh. I'm aware I over-involve myself sometimes, but you're no different.

Well, from what I recall, you always used to butt into topics that didn't concern you, say something stupid, and feel offended when you received an appropriate response.

Boxes are ugly and allow for limited choice in server name. They also look like bugs. I don't blame them for not wanting to use them (plus, they can't fit the entire name -- what would they use, BOXBOXBOXMG?)

I don't see how this is in response to what I said, but boxes aren't the problem. Maybe add some coloring or simply name it Development Server so it didnt run right in with the default server name. Playing on the SVN servers requires an entirely different client, and none of those servers use any boxes, so this has become entirely irrelevant now.

It's in response to you saying "Maybe you should swallow your pride and put some boxes in your name." I think they have color in the name now, anyway. But yeah, now it's irrelevant.

Nah, you can't use the same logic because it doesn't make any fucking sense in that context. Wearing something out (1.1) and not believing something will happen (1.2) are two separate things. I think there are many reasons old players have quit playing. In fact, the biggest split I ever saw was unlagged, which effectively divided the community in half. Kinda foreshadows for me what's about to come. Sometimes even good change (not implying 1.2 balance changes are good) can suck for the community.

Again, it has nothing to do with my preference but my anticipation of what games will be like. If I could have an eternal 5v5 pickup game I sure would, but it's not going to happen.

I'm using this because you were making it sound like 1.1 is something most old clan players like (but apparently don't like enough to defend). I disagree; I've been hearing since 2007 that 1.1 is unbalanced/sucks/why do I even play it (note, I personally liked 1.1; I just think it's old). If 1.1 is in fact something most old players like, why is it that I never see most of them playing anymore?

That's why I find it ridiculous when you say things like "The fact that good players don't come here means they would rather spend their time playing the game, nothing else."

Funny, I think so too. However, that seems to be the exact opposite of what they're doing by taking the classes that are powerful but tricky to master and putting them into common but different use, like the basilisk.

You don't really have a basis to say this, given how little you've actually played 1.2. Changes I initially thought were retarded actually turned out pretty well. Also, the basilisk can be combined with a tyrant for an AWESOME way to kill chainsuits very easily (just needs some coordination). I can see them being very cool to use in scrims.

Because in the second one I was talking about hearing it from the players in game, which would demonstrate a general knowledge of 1.2, and in the first I was talking about hearing it for myself on the forums. Interesting how in the second quote you didn't bold OTHER THAN THAT TOPIC which makes it have an entirely different meaning.

There are two topics:
http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?action=globalAnnouncements;id=3 - the one with 3000 views you are referring to, and
http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=8622.0 - the one with almost 52000 views. Your sentence means that other than the 3000 view topic, you haven't heard anything about 1.2 testing. I recall you saying something about 1.2 just being thrusted upon the community without any warning (something like that)...there was ample "warning."

Do you even have a client capable of playing on the svn server? You seemed to ignore my earlier mention of it.

Sorry, I don't remember you mentioning it, but yes, I downloaded the beta clients.

We did come back to it and play a bit recently (after the 1.2 gameplay changes topic) and realized wowdamn it's for serious and it's sucky. I'm not going to spend more time playing it, because I do not like it at initial feel.

When I first started playing trem (1.1), I thought a few things that were actually balanced were unbalanced and stupid. Then I realized I just didn't play enough when I made those assumptions. Same shit.

You don't tell someone the only reason they don't like counter strike is because they haven't played it enough.

Yeah, but when a noob says "WOW THIS IS UNBALANCED AND STUPID I HATE IT," you scratch your head and tell them to play more.

You seem to just read bits of my posts and attack things mindlessly; it's a waste of both our time. Having not slept all night, I'm done for a while.

Again, I'm not attacking you; I'm attacking your arguments. I have nothing against you...I just think your argument has holes in it.
How's programming going?

Everything feels better (though there are still some things I don't agree with, which I will mention after the beta release [so they hopefully change it])...especially sprint toggling and dodging.

I'm pretty sure Tremulous is in feature freeze at the moment which makes it doubtful that any game play changes are going to be introduced at this point in time. I definitely wouldn't wait until after beta if I were you to report anything other then bugs.

It's new features and stupid changes that have delayed it thus far, and they are now in a full freeze to get the damn thing out.  So nothing new non bug fix will be getting done prior to beta.

I also don't really know yet if things I think are unbalanced are due to me being rusty or actual unbalance, so I'll sit on them for now. It's also because I just want to play the damn release already.

[Lakitu7]

We realize that balance in *large* pub-style games have not really been tested. That's why beta exists and why during beta the official servers have high slot-counts (not quite as high as it looks though-- some of those are spectator slots).

[danmal]

It's new features and stupid changes that have delayed it thus far, and they are now in a full freeze to get the damn thing out.  So nothing new non bug fix will be getting done prior to beta.

Wait... I'm confused. Let me see if I understand this properly
1. We're in feature freeze now
2. 1.2 beta will then be released
3. Feature froze is now over!
4. Back to feature freeze
5. Release game!

Aren't we already in beta?

I'm not attacking you; I'm arguing about your opinions.

Nope. Re-take an SAT writing course.

Errr....

[Lakitu7]

No, beta is when we actually release the beta client formally with nice installers and advertise it. This is more of a pre-beta because since development is open and you can get the relevant files anyway, 'might as well let those interested help us test.

[danmal]

Ahh, right. I was a bit confused because Norf referred to the current servers as beta servers.

Am I more or less right about the order you're releasing beta/feature freeze? Or am I way off and got everything all muddled up again.

[amz181]

The people who gave feedback are a minority. People who didnt like the changes only spoke up when it seemed the changes were actually going to be implemented, and even then it wasnt alot of people. The truth of the matter is most people dont like the new changes, i for one loathe them. Why? It removes the fun from trem. I have played with the new changes many times and i have never really enjoyed the experience.

The gameplay of tremulous is what we all love. There isnt much else to be honest, it is the gameplay that captivates people, and is im my opinion the only reason trem is still alive today. Gameplay didnt need changing, maybe a few minor tweaks, but not the complete change which has be wrought. And you have completly changed it, and in doing so removed the fun, and created a game which is not tremulous.

1.2 should be released with 1.1 gameplay. And re-do the dev server, make minute changes, and release a 1.25

Also, im not against all of the changes, the obvious changes like the cade was a great idea. And i cant remember where it was brought up, but someone had the great idea of having the hovel as a seperate spawn que for grangers, which would be a great fix for it. (Also to stop abuse you can obviously stop evolving for a time)

[Lakitu7]

Currently we're frozen to get beta released. What we do after that is anyone's guess, right now.

[your face]

No, beta is when we actually release the beta client formally with nice installers and advertise it.

If the beta is released without the new models or maps, it would be a fatal mistake.  A lot of people who haven't played in years wouldn't be able to tell the difference from 1.1 and 1.2 and quit playing right there.  (If they, do in fact, play long enough to realize that the hovel is gone, then they would probably raaaaagequitttt.)

[Plague Bringer]

@ amz, that was me, 1.2 changes gone offtopic.

@ face, I'm pretty sure beta's planned to be released without new models. They'll HAVE to put in the new maps seeing as how base geometry has to be different for the new turrets. 1.1 maps are not proper for 1.2 human bases, I think.