Gameplay Preview Phase 1 Results

[mooseberry]

Also what exactly is the vertical value (bias??) and 'mean duration'?

It does need some explanation - obviously the range of game durations is not 14 - 16 minutes (15 +/-1), nor is the vertical axis scaled from -1 = 0 minutes to +1 = timelimit.  WTF?

I agree that measuring balance with players new to 1.2 is better than guessing with no empirical data, but also agree that balance with new players will be significantly different than balance with experienced ones.  The most disconcerting thing for me has been stamina - it is far easier to black out in 1.2 than in 1.1, and impossible to recover.  The alien differences (slow healing without booster) are easier to adjust for, and I love the boosted heal speed :-).

Time is not included in the graph, and up and down, simply put means that the higher up the line, the more likely humans are to win, and the opposite for below the midline. The horizontal part of the graph is pretty obvious I think.

[TD912]

While these results did surprise me, I believe part of the bias towards aliens could be due to people still trying to play trem like its 1.1.

I agree. There's no statistics to back this up, but I do notice people are clinging on to old 1.1 habits, like never using the flamer, not building tesla(which I personally think have too low of a range to protect well) or building hives. I think it could be partly due to the fact that some people don't seem to realize they have been changed. Barricade building has definately increased once players realized they collapsed and were much more useful than before.

On a side note, maybe DC repair rate should be increased a tiny bit or something. It sometimes feels like it's just wasting BP sitting there.

[UniqPhoeniX]

...up and down, simply put means that the higher up the line, the more likely humans are to win, and the opposite for below the midline....

That doesn't make sense. How do you judge how likely a single game is to end with humans/aliens winning?

[Timbo]

The vertical axis is the difference from the mean duration, where 1/-1 means no difference and 0 means the maximum difference.

[bleach]

I think the devs need a public relations BRANCH to deal with this nitpicky shit.  Good luck w/ 1.2.

[phungus420]

• Aliens are winning significantly more games than humans

You'd still have to try very hard to convince me that this isn't due to the fact that new players DO NOT like to play as aliens. Hence, you often end up with a human team full of noobs, and more experienced players on the aliens.

In large public games with a bunch of players, the individual's role is diminished, but in smaller games with more experienced players (clan scrims, etc), all of the alien nerfs make things very un-fun at times (in my opinion).

It says the mean game length is 15 min. That seems a bit low to me but w/e.

As others have stated, and I agree 100% with, the length of 1.1 games is one of the main reason I like Trem. 1.2 games seem to end much faster. In my mind, if a game doesn't make it to sudden death, then one team just isn't trying hard enough, or one is stacked with experienced players.

Finally, please leave the poor granger alone! ;_;

This guys is right on.  You devs are looking at things so wrong it's not even funny.  You need to account for the player skill in your evaluation of balance.  In the current version of 1.2 two equally skilled teams are no where near balanced, humans are vastly more powerful.

[phungus420]

To get an accurate statistics, force random join on the teams. I.e. when player wants to join, no matter if he chooses H or A, he is "autoplaced". At least that will give you a bit higher spread, but definitely better values.

Please do this before you nerf aliens more.  If you do you will see just how underpowered aliens are now.

[Celestial_Rage]

Meh, I used to feel the same way. I'd join the Official US Server and bitch about how goon range sucks etc. But now that I play it more, I saw that if you play like you do in tremulous 1.1, you are bound to suck. You will rely mainly on the primary attacks but in 1.2, you have to also use the secondary attacks a lot more to be effective. For instance, about 3 pounces kills a larmor+helm human and about 5 a battlesuit. The tyrant trample can kill a battlesuit if you continuously hit them.

[Silver]

If you want it to be accurate you need to take balance from a fixed independent variable set.  You need a group of experience closely skilled players to play 6-8vs6-8 switching off teams.  Then you'll get far more accurate results than just random people on random public games. 

Your statistics are going with all games, that means you haven't cut games with fewer than 4 players or that lasted almost no time.  Those games are a hindrance to the stats and I don't see how they can be valuable in any type of form.  Games that are far to short etc are generally due to independent variables such as someone "attempting" to move base half way across the map with no warning(which is very common on humans) or other things of that nature, that can hardly be determined as significant balance references.

[khalsa]

The graphs and the stats filter out a lot of games for a lot of reasons. I know games with less that 6 players are not counted at all.

[Silver]

The graphs and the stats filter out a lot of games for a lot of reasons. I know games with less that 6 players are not counted at all.

Oh would be nice if that was included in the first post.

Do you have a list of what games it discludes?

[phungus420]

One thing that would help, that's just common sense, is to make the dev server like what the real servers are going to be like.  In other words, make the OM, RC, arm, medi and booster rebuildable in SD.  The fact they aren't isn't fun, for anyone (remember this is a game, it's for our enjoyment), and most of the popular servers are going to mod this in anyway, because it's just common sense to do so.  Having seen a couple games where humans lost because of a nice goon jump + bad luci shot; I think these events are skewing the results.  Trem isn't meant to be played with the RC, OM, medi, arm, and booster being non rebuildable; very few players prefer total non rebuildable SD, as in none at all.

[UniqPhoeniX]

One thing that would help, that's just common sense, is to make the dev server like what the real servers are going to be like.  In other words, make the OM, RC, arm, medi and booster rebuildable in SD.  The fact they aren't isn't fun, for anyone (remember this is a game, it's for our enjoyment), and most of the popular servers are going to mod this in anyway, because it's just common sense to do so.  Having seen a couple games where humans lost because of a nice goon jump + bad luci shot; I think these events are skewing the results.  Trem isn't meant to be played with the RC, OM, medi, arm, and booster being non rebuildable; very few players prefer total non rebuildable SD, as in none at all.

SD is there for a reason, to end games that are too long. If you can't build a base that is safe, you deserve to lose. And you are totally wrong about noone preferring total non rebuildable SD.

[David]

If they can get the RC/OM without taking out a large chunk of your base then you deserve to lose.

[Lakitu7]

I like the part where he says it's designed to be played in a way that the designers don't even have in trunk.

[Plague Bringer]

I like the part where he says it's designed to be played in a way that the designers don't even have in trunk.

Agreed. The game is designed to be played with FF either on or off (unless it's decided that it'll be off, which, IMO, is preferred). Can't really claim that the official and vanilla are being unfaithful to how the game's designed to be played. -_-''

[phungus420]

I shouldn't have been so concrete with my statement, as some people prefer the default SD, though they are in the minority.  The majority of users play on 1.1 servers that allow rebuilding the RC, OM, arm, medi and booster.  The game is more fun that way.  A developer is just a person who codes, and often devs get caught up in the "rules" they want and forget the bigger picture about what would improve the game.  Since most users play with a modified SD to what the devs originally, it's safe to assume the game is more fun, ie better, with such a rule change.  Keep in mind what my point is also, before you simply object.  Changing the SD rule set to a more user preferred method would be a more enjoyable way to balance the game in this testing phase, then to further tweak the alien-human balance.

@Lakitu7
The game is better with that rule set.  At least more tremulous players seem to think so then agree with you.  I suppose I should just download the source and make this fix myself.  What do you use to compile the tremulous .exe anyway?  Also where is the SVN?

[David]

You don't even know how to compile C and yet you think you can edit it?  Good luck with that...

Also, 1.2 is not 1.1.  Plenty of other stuff has been changed, so who says this change isn't for the better?

And players are the worst people to ask what they want.  They don't have a clue what they really want, pandering to everyone's whims will just make a game that's fun for 20 seconds and then becomes boring.

[phungus420]

If they can get the RC/OM without taking out a large chunk of your base then you deserve to lose.

Once you get good with a goon, pouncing in and taking out the arm becomes near trivial in all but the strongest bases (such as the elevevator room).  It's one pounce + 2 chomps; it takes seconds.  This effectively ends the game for humans in SD.  Having this virtual game over power for goons seems like a highly flawed game design.  Also, as a retort to your simple minded statement with an equally simple point:  If humans have the ability to defend their base without an armory for long enough, they deserve the chance to continue playing the game; rather then just being stuck in game over mode.

[A Spork]

And players are the worst people to ask what they want.  They don't have a clue what they really want, pandering to everyone's whims will just make a game that's fun for 20 seconds and then becomes boring.

Of course not,its not like we NEED players for trem, after all, who needs to play this game, why not just kill here and now?


Seriously.
That was one of the most retarded things I've read in a while.

[David]

The whole point of SD is it ends the game quick, so no, they don't deserve a second chance.

Turrets can take out a goon in less than that.  Assuming they are placed right the goon will never get there.

And a nade and/or saw can do the same to the OM.

[temple]

If they can get the RC/OM without taking out a large chunk of your base then you deserve to lose.

Once you get good with a goon, pouncing in and taking out the arm becomes near trivial in all but the strongest bases (such as the elevevator room).  It's one pounce + 2 chomps; it takes seconds.  This effectively ends the game for humans in SD.  Having this virtual game over power for goons seems like a highly flawed game design.  Also, as a retort to your simple minded statement with an equally simple point:  If humans have the ability to defend their base without an armory for long enough, they deserve the chance to continue playing the game; rather then just being stuck in game over mode.

The game needs to end at some point.  It shouldn't go on and on and on and on and on.  

Also, rebuildable armories mean blocker armories being used as barricades which is lame as well.  How about people do more than sit in base and kill stuff before its inside your base?

[David]

And players are the worst people to ask what they want.  They don't have a clue what they really want, pandering to everyone's whims will just make a game that's fun for 20 seconds and then becomes boring.

Of course not,its not like we NEED players for trem, after all, who needs to play this game, why not just kill here and now?


Seriously.
That was one of the most retarded things I've read in a while.

Are you really trying to say you think a bunch of uneducated people with zero game design experience all working separately with independent aims and visions can come up with something better than a dedicated and experienced team who are all trying to make the same thing?

[Plague Bringer]

Of course not,its not like we NEED players for trem, after all, who needs to play this game, why not just kill here and now?


Seriously.
That was one of the most retarded things I've read in a while.

Are you really trying to say you think a bunch of uneducated people with zero game design experience all working separately with independent aims and visions can come up with something better than a dedicated and experienced team who are all trying to make the same thing?

Like I said once, it's not like the devs play their game. It's made for the players, so it should be made with the players in mind.

[A Spork]

And players are the worst people to ask what they want.  They don't have a clue what they really want, pandering to everyone's whims will just make a game that's fun for 20 seconds and then becomes boring.

Of course not,its not like we NEED players for trem, after all, who needs to play this game, why not just kill here and now?


Seriously.
That was one of the most retarded things I've read in a while.

Are you really trying to say you think a bunch of uneducated people with zero game design experience all working separately with independent aims and visions can come up with something better than a dedicated and experienced team who are all trying to make the same thing?

No, what I'm saying is you shouldn't assume all players are retards.
I mean, look at the community we have here.
Theres the Unvanquished Mod(Hey Look! They're Trem Players, Making a game! gasp!)
All sorts of excellent mappers, and modelers, and you think that no trem players can do anything? Seriously?

Also, as you're siggy says, you're Not a Dev, so are you really one to talk?

[Cadynum]

Once you get good with a goon, pouncing in and taking out the arm becomes near trivial in all but the strongest bases (such as the elevevator room).  It's one pounce + 2 chomps; it takes seconds.  This effectively ends the game for humans in SD.  Having this virtual game over power for goons seems like a highly flawed game design.  Also, as a retort to your simple minded statement with an equally simple point:  If humans have the ability to defend their base without an armory for long enough, they deserve the chance to continue playing the game; rather then just being stuck in game over mode.

The armory, unfortunately, has more health so it's harder to kill.
I like that nothing can be rebuilt in SD, and it is my preferred mode in 1.1 as well.
My reasons are oddly enough the exact opposite of yours; It's unfair if aliens can rebuild their "armory" when humans cannot.

More on topic I can only confirm what many already have stated, humans are severely overpowered.
I know the statistics tells the opposite, however they are simply lying

[David]

Obviously not all players are retarded, but the vast majority of the feedback is.

People saying that X should be changed is mostly useless, because there is someone else saying the exact opposite.  The cause, reasoning, and the why are never properly explained.  People never flesh out their ideas, so the useful bits aren't there.  Someone saying that there should be a 1 evo class with 10000hp and a nuke is stupid, so gets ignored.  If they were to say why they want it, how they think it would help, then people might realise that lots of the suggestions stem from the same perceived problem, and so be able to investigate it.  (Also 90% of suggestions could have been avoided if the poster stopped to think about the repercussions for 20 seconds.)

If people think playing S3 as humans is boring then they should say it.  Asking for a BFG9k1 isn't going to fix it or help anything, and isn't useful feedback.  Saying why they want it would be.

Also I know I'm not a game designer, trying to get into game development was probably the most stupid thing I ever did.  Still you all spout stupid and pointless crap at times, so I get to make stupid incoherent rants too.

[Silver]

Obviously not all players are retarded, but the vast majority of the feedback is.

People saying that X should be changed is mostly useless, because there is someone else saying the exact opposite.  The cause, reasoning, and the why are never properly explained.  People never flesh out their ideas, so the useful bits aren't there.  Someone saying that there should be a 1 evo class with 10000hp and a nuke is stupid, so gets ignored.  If they were to say why they want it, how they think it would help, then people might realise that lots of the suggestions stem from the same perceived problem, and so be able to investigate it.  (Also 90% of suggestions could have been avoided if the poster stopped to think about the repercussions for 20 seconds.)

If people think playing S3 as humans is boring then they should say it.  Asking for a BFG9k1 isn't going to fix it or help anything, and isn't useful feedback.  Saying why they want it would be.

Also I know I'm not a game designer, trying to get into game development was probably the most stupid thing I ever did.  Still you all spout stupid and pointless crap at times, so I get to make stupid incoherent rants too.

No one here has been asking for the stupid shit you just said.  In fact we've been complaining more about the changes we DON'T like not the changes we want to see.  Most of us are perfectly content with 1.1 and would rather see 1.2 change more on the graphics/maps/interface/dev support/site(client) updates(on main page for the new players to download) than balance and gameplay changes.  All I see in 1.2 dev's randomly guess checking nerfs and super power ups to classes that didn't need to be touched in the first place.

[Plague Bringer]

No one here has been asking for the stupid shit you just said.  In fact we've been complaining more about the changes we DON'T like not the changes we want to see.  Most of us are perfectly content with 1.1 and would rather see 1.2 change more on the graphics/maps/interface/dev support/site(client) updates(on main page for the new players to download) than balance and gameplay changes.  All I see in 1.2 dev's randomly guess checking nerfs and super power ups to classes that didn't need to be touched in the first place.

+1

[bob0]

Obviously not all players are retarded, but the vast majority of the feedback is.

People saying that X should be changed is mostly useless, because there is someone else saying the exact opposite.  The cause, reasoning, and the why are never properly explained.  People never flesh out their ideas, so the useful bits aren't there.  Someone saying that there should be a 1 evo class with 10000hp and a nuke is stupid, so gets ignored.  If they were to say why they want it, how they think it would help, then people might realise that lots of the suggestions stem from the same perceived problem, and so be able to investigate it.  (Also 90% of suggestions could have been avoided if the poster stopped to think about the repercussions for 20 seconds.)

If people think playing S3 as humans is boring then they should say it.  Asking for a BFG9k1 isn't going to fix it or help anything, and isn't useful feedback.  Saying why they want it would be.

Also I know I'm not a game designer, trying to get into game development was probably the most stupid thing I ever did.  Still you all spout stupid and pointless crap at times, so I get to make stupid incoherent rants too.

No one here has been asking for the stupid shit you just said.  In fact we've been complaining more about the changes we DON'T like not the changes we want to see.  Most of us are perfectly content with 1.1 and would rather see 1.2 change more on the graphics/maps/interface/dev support/site(client) updates(on main page for the new players to download) than balance and gameplay changes.  All I see in 1.2 dev's randomly guess checking nerfs and super power ups to classes that didn't need to be touched in the first place.

No one here has been asking for the stupid shit you just said.  Or most of anything else on this forum.  Therefore, you shouldn't have said that because nobody asked you too.  And you too, DavidSev.  And most everything else on this forum.