Author Topic: Tremulous 1.2 analysis  (Read 4830 times)

jigidyjensen

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Tremulous 1.2 analysis
« on: December 22, 2009, 07:11:23 am »
This is my analysis of trem 1.2.

I personally feel that trem 1.2 is unbalanced.  In fact, I believe it is less balanced than trem 1.1.  And the criteria I am using to measure balance is the following.

Tremulous will be balanced when the number of people wanting to play humans = the number of people wanting to play aliens.  You see, if you actually think about it, there is much more to balancing a game than just making sure that each team has an equal chance of winning, which I don't even feel is the case in trem 1.2, because I would say the humans have the upper hand, and that is just not going to be a winning recepie for tremulous in general if it is going to be a game that people will actually want to keep playing.

In trem 1.1, there where still slightly more people that wanted to play humans, but there was also lot of people who like aliens, because they knew that they could kick but with them.  Now aliens in 1.2 are wimpy.  The goon is to slow, the tyrant is to week, the regen is to slow.  Now the problem your going to have is this, people are going to join a game, and at the very beginning be clicking as fast as they can so that they can join humans, and then when they cant get it, begrudgingly join aliens and hope for better luck next game, spectate, or just quit.

You see, think about it, it is really fun to sit back and be able to just kill things at a huge distance with awesome weapons, however, it is not half as much fun to try and get close enough to use a melee weapon to kill a bunch of grouped up humans.  In 1.1, you might have a chance to escape, but in 1.2 it is do or die for a goon.  Either it prevails, or much more likely, it gets the players 3 evos wasted.

And now I will say the following:  OVERPOWERED ALIENS IS WHAT WORKS

It is because aliens where overpowered in 1.1 that the game took off like wildfire.  Why because everyone by nature wants to play their own race.  By overpowering the aliens, you gave aliens something where they could still be fun as heck to play.

Also, by overpowering the aliens, didn't it make it just that much more rewarding when you actually killed one?  I  know I eventually got great at killing aliens in 1.1, and it felt awesome. 

Also, aliens in 1.1 weren't more powerful than humans, if you had humans who worked in a team.  Actually, even 1.1, a group of humans working in a team where actually the more powerful species.

Anyways, here are just a couple of thoughts.  I by no means am trying to criticize the developers of trem.  Just about everything they have added to tremulous are things that I thought would improve it myself, but I realize that I was wrong.  Trem 1.1 was a fluke.  I say it was a fluke because it is those things that a rational human being would think that would absolutely destroy the game, that actually made it work, though we may not have realized it back then.  It is those things that people thought sucked about it, that in reality made it that much more intense.

If trem continues down the path it is going, then lets just make it human vs. human, because that is the only team people will want to play on.  Or make human teams with the aliens as their fighting pets.

AppleJuice

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Re: Tremulous 1.2 analysis
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2009, 03:29:26 pm »
Sigh.
These threads remind me of the old 1.1 "THE GOON IS OVERPOWERED, CHANGE IT" threads. Please stop trying to pass off your inability to adapt to 1.2 alien gameplay as imbalance. Your analysis (at least in this post) of the imbalance is very superficial (you simply state that aliens are weak and slow) and doesn't help at all; in other words, this post will likely be ignored. That is unfortunate, since your point about overpowered aliens being attractive is worth looking in to. I'm not sure how much merit it holds, since I can barely remember what I was like almost 3 years ago, but it is an interesting point.

Anyway, these threads are just what David was talking about...if there are tons of threads, all asking for different things, how are the developers going to know what to do, or who to listen to? Thus, I'd suggest actually trying to adapt before posting. Your comments about the goon/tyrant being weak say enough (I actually think they're quite overpowered already..).
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Conzul

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Re: Tremulous 1.2 analysis
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2009, 06:26:11 pm »
This is my analysis of trem 1.2.

I personally feel that trem 1.2 is unbalanced.  In fact, I believe it is less balanced than trem 1.1.  And the criteria I am using to measure balance is the following.

Tremulous will be balanced when the number of people wanting to play humans = the number of people wanting to play aliens.  You see, if you actually think about it, there is much more to balancing a game than just making sure that each team has an equal chance of winning, which I don't even feel is the case in trem 1.2, because I would say the humans have the upper hand, and that is just not going to be a winning recepie for tremulous in general if it is going to be a game that people will actually want to keep playing.

In trem 1.1, there where still slightly more people that wanted to play humans, but there was also lot of people who like aliens, because they knew that they could kick but with them.  Now aliens in 1.2 are wimpy.  The goon is to slow, the tyrant is to week, the regen is to slow.  Now the problem your going to have is this, people are going to join a game, and at the very beginning be clicking as fast as they can so that they can join humans, and then when they cant get it, begrudgingly join aliens and hope for better luck next game, spectate, or just quit.

You see, think about it, it is really fun to sit back and be able to just kill things at a huge distance with awesome weapons, however, it is not half as much fun to try and get close enough to use a melee weapon to kill a bunch of grouped up humans.  In 1.1, you might have a chance to escape, but in 1.2 it is do or die for a goon.  Either it prevails, or much more likely, it gets the players 3 evos wasted.

And now I will say the following:  OVERPOWERED ALIENS IS WHAT WORKS

It is because aliens where overpowered in 1.1 that the game took off like wildfire.  Why because everyone by nature wants to play their own race.  By overpowering the aliens, you gave aliens something where they could still be fun as heck to play.

Also, by overpowering the aliens, didn't it make it just that much more rewarding when you actually killed one?  I  know I eventually got great at killing aliens in 1.1, and it felt awesome. 

Also, aliens in 1.1 weren't more powerful than humans, if you had humans who worked in a team.  Actually, even 1.1, a group of humans working in a team where actually the more powerful species.

Anyways, here are just a couple of thoughts.  I by no means am trying to criticize the developers of trem.  Just about everything they have added to tremulous are things that I thought would improve it myself, but I realize that I was wrong.  Trem 1.1 was a fluke.  I say it was a fluke because it is those things that a rational human being would think that would absolutely destroy the game, that actually made it work, though we may not have realized it back then.  It is those things that people thought sucked about it, that in reality made it that much more intense.

If trem continues down the path it is going, then lets just make it human vs. human, because that is the only team people will want to play on.  Or make human teams with the aliens as their fighting pets.

You, are right. Aliens in 1.1 were overpowered, but that was fine.

jigidyjensen

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Re: Tremulous 1.2 analysis
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2009, 11:19:53 pm »
Quote
Anyway, these threads are just what David was talking about...if there are tons of threads, all asking for different things, how are the developers going to know what to do, or who to listen to? Thus, I'd suggest actually trying to adapt before posting. Your comments about the goon/tyrant being weak say enough (I actually think they're quite overpowered already..).

Applejuice, you are right, who should they listen too?  It is really hard to recognize the difference between a good idea and one that is a bad idea.  That is why I believe the real test isn't how often one team wins over the other, but are there just as many people wanting to play aliens as wanting to play humans.  And from what I have seen on the trem 1.2 servers that most people want to play humans.  I feel that it is when that is balanced that the tremulous community will begin to thrive again.  Like I said, most of the changes they made seemed to make sense, they made sense to me, but I think our intuition is wrong on the matter.

The only suggestion I can make is beef up the aliens again.  Give them the same regen as they had in 1.1.  Then keeping them at the new lower hit points might work better.  Think about it, imagine watching the movie alien if the alien was to wimpy, it is the same thing here.

I remember playing trem 1.1 when it first came out, and the tyrant would send chills down your spine when you had to hunt them.  But man, when you teamed up with someone on you human team and took one down, dang did it feel good.

So my suggestion is, we got to make the aliens for fearsome.  And we need determine the success of the changes also based on how balanced are the teams in popularity.

And I have played with the new changes, and one thing I can say is, it doesn't have the same appeal as 1.1 did (before all the crappy moded servers).  I was addicted to 1.1, it was sick how addictive it was.  But with 1.2, I just don't find it as suspenseful or drawing as 1.1.

UniqPhoeniX

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Re: Tremulous 1.2 analysis
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2009, 10:12:42 am »
People preferring 1 team more then other has nothing to do with balance. Some people (like me) play for challenge and I sometimes switch to weaker team just because of that. More people prefer humans in 1.1 because they are more familiar, easier to learn. In 1.2 beta they got several 'buffs' and just changes, which could be why people are trying to play in humans more atm (most good/1.2 players are already used to aliens). Also people get over fear after playing for a while. If you didn't know tyrants used to have more hp, would that make them more scary?

A Spork

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Re: Tremulous 1.2 analysis
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2009, 03:22:59 pm »
@ the rant comment: they still are, I got a friend of mine to play the other day, and when I got a rant was just massacring people and running em over, I was kinda freaking him out.
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Celestial_Rage

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Re: Tremulous 1.2 analysis
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2009, 04:36:04 pm »
Yes Spork, that is a rather standard response. When I play at school, I get, "What is that big bug?"
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temple

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Re: Tremulous 1.2 analysis
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2009, 04:56:11 pm »
Actually, the rant is correctly identified as 'the dinosaur'

Dracone

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Re: Tremulous 1.2 analysis
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2009, 07:43:21 pm »
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Ryanw4390

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Re: Tremulous 1.2 analysis
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2009, 04:55:30 am »
For all the people that play humans there are people like me who concentrate on aliens (at least that's what I've been doing so far with 1.2).
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