A couple balance suggestions, feedback welcome

[Rippy]

(note: first post, take it easy on me )

I've been playing Tremulous for about a week now. This game is amazing, and rivals commercial games. Heck, add a single player campain and bots (no easy task, I know) and this would make a great commercial game in itself. But I've noticed the following couple balance issues:

1. Early-game, the humans can attack a base with much more ease than the aliens, due to the humans' turrets. Late-game, Tyrants destroy even the strongest human bases.

2. When joining a server partway through a game, it's impossible to compete with the advanced opposing team, since you always start with 0 EP/creds.

Proposed solutions:

1. - Maybe turrets should start out with about half the rate of fire? Then, once stage 2 is reached, they automatically double their rate of fire. And to protect buildings from Tyrants, there should be a stage 3 structure called a "Shield Station", which adds energy shields worth 50% HP around each human structure. (graphically, the shields would only be visible when they're taking damage)
- Alternatively, since I realise that bases aren't meant to be invaded until later stages, the turrets should keep their regular RoF, but there should still be a stage 3 Shield Station to give humans more of a chance versus Tyrants.
- Alternatively, maybe there could be a third type of turret that fires Lucifer Cannon shots? Although it'd be easy for those to become overpowered, so they would have to cost a hefty amount of BP.

2. Depending on what stage the team is at, a new player should receive bonus EP or credits. For example, an alien joining at stage 2 would receive 2 EP, and 4 EP if they joined during stage 3. A human would receive 300 creds if joining in stage 2, or 600 if joining in stage 3. To prevent people from abusing this, the tool that's used to restore your team if you disconnect could be used to ensure that noone can receive the credits more than once, or receive undeserved credits. (It's annoying combatting battlesuited flamethrowers as a dretch, or advanced dragoons and tyrants with a rifle)

All feedback welcome. All in all I'm impressed with the balance in the game, I just had to point out those couple things.

- Rippy

(oh and sorry if that sounded overly professional. I just wrote a pretty long resume, so the vocabulary is still floating around in my head >_>)

[Basilisco]

Humans don't stand a chance in stage 3 against aliens. Because at that point all aliens are tired of waiting, and pretty much all the team attacks.
On the contrary, not all humans rush the alien base at any stage, but when they do, not even the best alien defense will stop them.

[Edit: added like 5 commas  ]

[vcxzet]

Humans don't stand a chance in stage 3 against aliens because at that point all aliens are tired of waiting and pretty much all the team attacks.
On the contrary not all humans rush the alien base at any stage, but when they do not even the best alien defense will stop them.

heh You need a comma somewhere

[KorJax]

Some points:

1.  Aliens are not base attackers at early stages, they are preditors.  The only time they should ever attack is if the human team is moving, or they goofed up and had a major hole in thier defensive line.  Other than that, aliens should always lie low untill they reach S3, or sometimes S2.  You want to try and get to a higher stage before the human team does, but its not nessicary, if you know how to dodge pulse rifles realtivly well

2.  Alien bases are not ment to hold off attackers, but are ment to be hidden and inconspicuous.  If an alien base is under attack, the defenses are ment to slow down and cripple the offensive force, whilst the Aliens themselves do the major damage.  This is if the attackers are experienced and upgraded.

The trick in making an alien base work well at STOPPING attacks, is to build the base as an alien, not a human.  If you try and build the base like a human base, it will always do poorly.  Properly built alien bases can hold off the human team fairly well.  This is kind of different at S1, as the humans start with most of thier buildings right off, and the aliens only get the "good stuff" later on.  As such, an S1 alien base is always most prone to attacks.  This is where the team becomes the most important defense.  Either by keeping them at bay by ambushing them and playing preditor, or just simply holding off attackers.

However, once you get trappers and a booster in the mix (mostly the trapper defense wise), you can build a base that WILL stop most attackers, if you built it correctly and in a good spot.  And Hives are easily the most powerfull defense in the game, if placed correctly.

Anyways, search some base building turtorials to learn how to make a better alien base.

[Rippy]

Alright, scrap the turret nerf. But still, the game often gets stuck in a standoff where the aliens control the map but simply can't get into the human base because of the turrets. In my experience, those games nearly always end as an alien win. There needs to be something to give aliens a chance against a stage 2 base, and something to give humans a chance to defend their stage 3 base once the tyrants come a-knockin'.

I suppose the alien "predator" gameplay is part of the game, but I still think it should be different than "let-the-humans-feed-me-EP-until-stage-3". So, at least, there should be something to beef up human defense in the late game.

[PHREAK]

...... So, at least, there should be something to beef up human defense in the late game.....

Ever heard of teslas?

[Rippy]

...... So, at least, there should be something to beef up human defense in the late game.....

Ever heard of teslas?

Ever noticed how they're useless against bigger aliens? Teslas are good agaist the little guys because they have a 100% hit rate, but there's really no point otherwise, since large aliens are easy/slower targets and turrets can shoot from further away. Not to mention that, to my knowledge, teslas do less damage than turrets.

So basically, they end up doing the opposite of what you want in a stage 3 defense: they excel only versus small/quick aliens.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, I just haven't seen teslas be nearly as effective as turrets against large aliens. Their bonus is in accuracy (and, to a lesser extent, defense), when it's firepower that's needed.

[Howitzer]

I'm not sure if strengthening the hummies' defenses would balance it.
It would make the hummies camp even more because then they can actually just sit back and shoot a bit here and there and let the defenses do the rest.

[chompers]

3. To prevent people from abusing this, the tool that's used to restore your team if you disconnect could be used to ensure that noone can receive the credits more than once, or receive undeserved credits. (It's annoying combatting battlesuited flamethrowers as a dretch, or advanced dragoons and tyrants with a rifle)

There is no way to prevent people abusing this. Even with GUID's - How can the server tell the difference between 4 people on the same connection, and one guy with 4 copies installed?

One way to fix the problem of late joiners is to allow players with lots of cash/evo to share it around to their team mates, but even then, a lot of people don't like that idea as it would make the side with the best player stronger. Your best bet  as a dretch vs BSuit is to defend some acid tubes.

Also the DCC available at stage 2 *does* improve turrets, but it costs a turret to build one. Whether 6 improved turrets are more effective than 7 stage 1 turrets is another question.

There are plenty of base locations that are inaccessable to tyrants, and ways to build so that tyrants can do very little damage before having to retreat from turret damage. In a good base, a single guy with pulse rifle can hold off more than one tyrant.

Lucifer turrets would be awesome. Since they would damage every other building, it would let me destroy a whole base as a dretch.
 :eek:

[Squall503]

...... So, at least, there should be something to beef up human defense in the late game.....

Ever heard of teslas?

seriously, I hate people who make all teslas and no turrets, it is a proven fact that turrets do more damage then teslas if every bullet hits (if).
 
I like to have about 1 tesla at each entrance, and at least 2 turrets to back it up, because turrets are much more effective on tyrants and goons, they are not so easy to hit being smaller then teslas, so telsa for a goon and tyrant is nothing maybe it will get off a couple of hits then crumple.

but try a couple of turrets and one telsa in the middle, because alieans cant do the attack one turret and not get hit by only one turret because there is a tesla to back it up. so try that

[kozak6]

I love it when humans make all Tesla's.

I love it even more when the Defense Computer is within sniping range during sd   .

[PHREAK]

I never said to replace turrets with teslas. Teslas are good if they are backed up by turrets since they hit 360. They will hold long enough for turrets to turn.
They also push back so adv maras have a harder time jumping into base and raping unprotected structures.
Hummie defenses are not meant to be impenetrable or overpowered. If they were, aliens would never win a single game.
If you ever played aliens, you know that the best defense will crumble without support*.
In my opinion, the same goes for hummies.


/OFF
* I did witness a self sustained alien base though. Viper from killaz built it and it blew my mind. Map was gloom 2, OG alien base @ S3.
He made hives one after another on the cieling leading to the OM with trappers mixed in. No tubes or baricades.
We all went hummie just to see if it was possible to destroy it, with no luck.
Anything but a bsuit died within 1 second while bsuits took 2.
Nades couldnt reach the ceiling and trappers made sure that you never came back. The hives killed so fast that one didnt have enough time to shoot off one single lucy shot. It was SD and only a few minutes till timelimit so we couldn't test it out too much byt it was phenomenal.
/ON

[Stof]

I never said to replace turrets with teslas. Teslas are good if they are backed up by turrets since they hit 360. They will hold long enough for turrets to turn.
They also push back so adv maras have a harder time jumping into base and raping unprotected structures.
Hummie defenses are not meant to be impenetrable or overpowered. If they were, aliens would never win a single game.
If you ever played aliens, you know that the best defense will crumble without support*.
In my opinion, the same goes for hummies.


/OFF
* I did witness a self sustained alien base though. Viper from killaz built it and it blew my mind. Map was gloom 2, OG alien base @ S3.
He made hives one after another on the cieling leading to the OM with trappers mixed in. No tubes or baricades.
We all went hummie just to see if it was possible to destroy it, with no luck.
Anything but a bsuit died within 1 second while bsuits took 2.
Nades couldnt reach the ceiling and trappers made sure that you never came back. The hives killed so fast that one didnt have enough time to shoot off one single lucy shot. It was SD and only a few minutes till timelimit so we couldn't test it out too much byt it was phenomenal.
/ON

That's an interesting chalenge you have here, I would love to try to crack that base My bet is that a well placed lucifer jump could get you past most of the trappers. Another possibility would be to go is as a battlesuit with a fully charged lucifer and get in quickly two attacks on the trappers.

Once the trappers are down, the rest of the hives are nearly useless.

[PHREAK]

The lucy jump wouldn't do much good since, even if you bypass the trappers, the crapload of hives would eat you befor you land again
I'm telling you, it was insane.
What would work is the bsuit charging a lucy, running in and shooting. While he'll die after the first shot, if there's 3 of them, it might crack the base.

But imagine a tyrant sitting base there....ewww...nasty business.
I'm gonna go recreate that setup and see what can be done about it.

[Stof]

You do know that hive projectiles are slow moving and easy to avoid do you ?

[Squall503]

um........... wow im pretty sure i could get in that base, just get a pulse rifle and take out 1-3 hives before anything then repeat the process as needed im sure it wouldnt be that hard to get in there and kill om, but i guess your intent is alright or something but yeah

[Survivor]

Luci=Splashdamage= only need knowledge of its location not Line of Sight.

[Lava Croft]

1: Don't run into turrets when playing as Dretch.

2: It's fairly easy to get (a) good class/equipment at S3, just evade the higher classes/better equipped players. There always un- or light-armoured Humans walking around.

[Rippy]

lol, this is turning out to be an interesting thread. Howitzer brings up a good point: I never thought of how strengthening human defense would just make them camp. I still think there should be SOMETHING to give players a bit of a chance versus Tyrants. Even when they're running away to recover hp, when you follow them you just turn a corner and BAM, 1-hit killed. (or maybe I just suck, probably a mix of both )

Aaaand then again, a good ol' luci would take out that injured Tyrant... I'm not much of a luci user so I'll have to try that.