Author Topic: Need a 1.2 FF server  (Read 16009 times)

Liskey

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Need a 1.2 FF server
« on: January 19, 2010, 01:20:20 am »
At least one of the official gpp servers needs to have FF on.  Not only does playing with it off get folks into really bad habits, it severely warps the balance stats.  When humans can flame and luci away with no regard for who they are about to TK, the result is an insurmountable wall of lead and plasma and a win that may or may not be deserved.

your face

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2010, 01:37:43 am »
+1
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Winnie the Pooh

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2010, 03:03:53 am »
Not to worry, ff is planned for phase four.
Quote
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Demolution

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2010, 05:32:52 am »
What, you don't enjoy being propelled across the map from a full luci shot in the back? :D

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your face

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2010, 05:56:03 am »
I enjoy propelling other players' dead corpses across the map. :D
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mooseberry

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2010, 06:19:15 am »
They (claim) they will also be doing balance testing with FF off.
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Caffeine

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2010, 07:06:52 pm »
FFoff is a huge advantage to the humans. Not only can they flame, pulse, and luci away without worrying about TK. The aliens who ususally attack one at a time, or alternating attacking/running have less advantages from FF being off

As it's been said by liskey, the humans can currently just make a wall of lead, lasers, and radioactive plasma that would usually kill THEM more than aliens, however since they don't have to worry about killing each other they can easily control halls and areas they would not be able to in a normal situation, allowing them to win more easily.  (FF on)

Aliens can't make a wall of lead... and the closest thing to that is snipes... good luck getting that to happen with the current regen rate and.

It also makes it impossible to kill battlegrangers, and idiots in bsuits who block me.... which makes me rage really hard.

Kiwi

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2010, 02:51:56 am »
The devs already know this, its been spammed in every feedback thread there is.  They plan to incorporate it in wave 4 of their balance testing.  (I mean this in the nicest way there is)

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Conzul

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2010, 04:02:49 am »
Yeah we need one as soon as possible. It would be okay if the FF on in phase 4 were phase 4 of 5 or 4 of 6, but to only playtest FF in the last 25% of testing seems to build a game imbalanced

Kiwi

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2010, 08:54:25 pm »
It's imbalanced now, and after this is balanced the devs will balance it with ff on, I'm assuming.

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Kiwi

Caffeine

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2010, 09:11:19 pm »
What's the point of balancing it with FF off if they're going to turn right around and rebalance it with FF on? I see no point to balancing the game twice when FF is going to be ON on the majority of servers anyway, it's not like they're going to implement two versions of 1.2 for FF on and off is it?

I mean really only noob servers keep it off so...
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 09:13:25 pm by Caffeine »

Norfenstein

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2010, 11:20:36 pm »
The devs already know this, its been spammed in every feedback thread there is.  They plan to incorporate it in wave 4 of their balance testing.  (I mean this in the nicest way there is)
It will be in phase four if I don't feel that any other changes are necessary that would be significant enough to need more testing on their own. I think I'm satisfied with stamina and I don't expect the goon to need anything major, but I'm not sure what's going to happen with the flamer, and I'm thinking about something else that might be somewhat impactful.

Yeah we need one as soon as possible. It would be okay if the FF on in phase 4 were phase 4 of 5 or 4 of 6, but to only playtest FF in the last 25% of testing seems to build a game imbalanced
There is no planned number of phases, but I think it's quite safe to say there's going to be at least five. And in case anyone's worrying, this isn't the only work still going into 1.2; we're not holding anything up by doing this.

What's the point of balancing it with FF off if they're going to turn right around and rebalance it with FF on? I see no point to balancing the game twice when FF is going to be ON on the majority of servers anyway, it's not like they're going to implement two versions of 1.2 for FF on and off is it?
Don't be silly. Gameplay is going to be different with friendly fire on, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to require changes that are incompatible with friendly fire off. We'll see what happens when we get there.

I mean really only noob servers keep it off so...
Not everyone shares your opinion about friendly fire.

KamikOzzy

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2010, 04:04:32 am »
Everyone half decent shares his view on FF.

For around the 100th time, if ff on or off is arbitrary and isn't going to change balance bigtime, it should NEVER have been off. EVER! Who plays with ff off? There haven't been popular ff-off servers since...a long ass time.
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StevenM

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2010, 04:16:18 am »
wasnt BG no ff, i enjoyed it. i dont really care when im playing public games because to be honest it doesnt really matter. scrims are a completely different story.

Caffeine

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2010, 01:44:29 pm »
Well IMO FF off makes for bad habits.

I've seen too many people running around literally hosing their teammates down with the flamer.

It also keeps tyrants from swiping offending battlegrangers and other assorted idiots who block them. Not even kidding, wish I had a demo.

People seem to love the new pulse and flamer so much but with FF on their teammates will hate them, and I think it will actually affect balance.

Norfenstein

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2010, 12:34:10 am »
I didn't say the balance would be no different with friendly fire on or off, I said whatever changes might be needed with it on might not be incompatible with what's appropriate with it off. There's a difference.

Well IMO FF off makes for bad habits.

I've seen too many people running around literally hosing their teammates down with the flamer.
You can say the exact same thing about FF on. They're only "bad" habits if you're using them on a server that has a FF setting you're not used to. Being able to flame your teammates without hurting them might be silly in your opinion, but it's no more or less legitimate than having it hurt them. It's just different.

Everyone half decent shares his view on FF.
Blanket statements like this are unconvincing because it only takes one counter-example to falsify them. And regardless of whether most people prefer it one way, I'm going to try to make the game acceptable to people that have either opinion. There's no reason to be complaining about this.

KillerWhale

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2010, 12:49:35 am »
Personally, I like servers with FF off.

It creates an environment that is much easier to have fun whilst playing in; it may create bad habits, but who cares if you're actually having a good time instead of caring about what is a "good habit" and a "bad habit".

I don't think that there will be really significant implications of turning FF on, besides more frustrating matches full of getting slashed by "supercoolgamernamekillperson[PL]". ;)

your face

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2010, 01:33:38 am »
When someone says something nasty on my team that I don't like, I like the freedom to be able to go PEW PEW PEW at their face and watch the blood SPURT FROM THEIR DYING FACE.  :( >:( :-[  THEN SHOOT THEIR DEAD BODY FOR GOOD MEASURE BUT OH NO THEY RESPAWN SHOOT THEM AGAIN AND AGAIN.
spam spam spam, waste waste waste!

Caffeine

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2010, 03:37:13 am »
+2 yourface, one for the valid point and one for making me lol IRL

Silver

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2010, 04:00:14 am »
Another perfect example of why the devs don't know what they're doing.  No respectable server but BG has had FF off in the 3 years I've been playing.  Even BG all the regulars were fighting for it to be on.  Part of the reason it went so inactive is because a lot of its regulars hopped to AA for the ff.
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mooseberry

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2010, 04:43:24 am »
Why do you care so much? If FF off bothers you that much, don't play on the dev servers till they are using FF on. They said they will have FF on sometime in the future. Calm down. >.>
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Silver

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2010, 06:04:39 am »
We care because we care.  If 1.2 is the future of trem.  We want to put every ounce of logical effort we have towards its development.  We may not all be genius coders, but most of us have been playing for over 3 years and understand the games mechanics very very well.  So we have some right to an opinion of whats proper gameplay and what isn't.  What will be a productive change and what wont.  Balancing with FF off is hard to do, it's a huge reason why humans are over-powered right now.  Lets say the nerf flamethrower because its so good.  Then when FF gets turned on, it becomes virtually as useless as it was in 1.1(flamer is only good against noobs, don't try to deny it in 1.1.  It's very difficult to be effective with against a skilled player and completely useless for base rushing)  Where as, maybe even though flamer is over-powered now, with a very minor range/damage nerf and FF on, it's still very effective, but not over-powered. 

FF is something 95% of the worthwhile servers will have on almost solely because it reduces spam and battle grangering.  So why would they be so desperate to balance change without it when it will have key effects on the actual balance itself. 

Just like share, they know as soon as 1.2 hits the shelves, share and donate will be back on all the main player servers in less than an hour.  People have adapted to it too much.
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KamikOzzy

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2010, 08:35:43 am »
Here are some statements that don't say "everyone thinks" or crap like that. I understand why you don't know how the majority of people have played.

FF on may be a detriment to teams with total novices, but it also adds some key changes to keep the following in check: three aliens close together in a hallway slashing about. It can be impossible to dodge a few rants closing you in, but a glimmer of hope comes from the fact that they will often swipe each other a time or two; the flamer or lucy spammers who just fire away (as these weapons are powerful and easy to use when being careful isn't a requirement; cheap nades dropped in a huddle of humans, making an alien pay the price for being aggressive and trying to take on a group at once (Oops! surprise nade, at least the humans will suffer some from this? Nope.)

Having ff on allows for tactical team-killings, such as a player needing to get back to base in a hurry, or needing to spawn as a c-kit when the armory is down.

Let's face it: aiming isn't nearly as coveted a skill since the dawn of unlagged, and now the gap between mediocre players and legends is seldom found in the sector of marksmanship. The difference has been that a good player kills aliens, while a great player kills aliens without forcing his teammates to use the medkit early.

Killing battle grangers and blastering goofballs before they feed "that one player" on the other team a goon or chainsuit is always a plus.

History has taught us that most servers will use friendly fire. Before we had some squabbles over the game being unlagged, when it was designed to be played with ping in consideration. That's been fixed, as you are now developing the game for use with unlagged, since we know that will be a standard. I find the same to be true of friendly fire. If servers are likely to be using g_friendlyfire 1 almost all of the time, it makes a lot more sense to have the game balanced to match that than to balance it for ff off and have a game running everywhere in a way it wasn't designed to be played.

I think if you are going to change to testing with ff sometime, you should change it in the middle of a "phase" that you already find to be somewhat stable, so that you know what to change *before* the next phase has begun. Plus, if you start it at the beginning of another phase, and things don't turn out the way you thought, you will be left to wonder if it's the ff or something different that's throwing off the balance. In short, isolate the variable by adding it by itself rather than in a clump of other (shitty tremulous.h changes)stuff.
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Caffeine

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2010, 11:25:15 am »
I think Ozzy is a pretty cool guy, eh tells the devs how it is and doesn't afraid of anything!

But silly memes aside, I think he makes a very good point. I don't think anyone can really disagree with all of that.

I haven't seen ANYONE fighting for FF to stay off... think about it.

FreaK

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2010, 05:22:57 pm »
Here are some statements that don't say "everyone thinks" or crap like that. I understand why you don't know how the majority of people have played.

FF on may be a detriment to teams with total novices, but it also adds some key changes to keep the following in check: three aliens close together in a hallway slashing about. It can be impossible to dodge a few rants closing you in, but a glimmer of hope comes from the fact that they will often swipe each other a time or two; the flamer or lucy spammers who just fire away (as these weapons are powerful and easy to use when being careful isn't a requirement; cheap nades dropped in a huddle of humans, making an alien pay the price for being aggressive and trying to take on a group at once (Oops! surprise nade, at least the humans will suffer some from this? Nope.)

Having ff on allows for tactical team-killings, such as a player needing to get back to base in a hurry, or needing to spawn as a c-kit when the armory is down.

Let's face it: aiming isn't nearly as coveted a skill since the dawn of unlagged, and now the gap between mediocre players and legends is seldom found in the sector of marksmanship. The difference has been that a good player kills aliens, while a great player kills aliens without forcing his teammates to use the medkit early.

Killing battle grangers and blastering goofballs before they feed "that one player" on the other team a goon or chainsuit is always a plus.

History has taught us that most servers will use friendly fire. Before we had some squabbles over the game being unlagged, when it was designed to be played with ping in consideration. That's been fixed, as you are now developing the game for use with unlagged, since we know that will be a standard. I find the same to be true of friendly fire. If servers are likely to be using g_friendlyfire 1 almost all of the time, it makes a lot more sense to have the game balanced to match that than to balance it for ff off and have a game running everywhere in a way it wasn't designed to be played.

I think if you are going to change to testing with ff sometime, you should change it in the middle of a "phase" that you already find to be somewhat stable, so that you know what to change *before* the next phase has begun. Plus, if you start it at the beginning of another phase, and things don't turn out the way you thought, you will be left to wonder if it's the ff or something different that's throwing off the balance. In short, isolate the variable by adding it by itself rather than in a clump of other (shitty tremulous.h changes)stuff.
I agree, I think we should turn on ff on the next phase because it will be easier to balance everything in the end.

mooseberry

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2010, 05:59:02 pm »
We care because we care.  If 1.2 is the future of trem.  We want to put every ounce of logical effort we have towards its development. ...

I agree with this of course, and I don't mean you shouldn't keep giving feedback. I would certainly agree that FF being on during testing is very important, but they said they will test with it on. Maybe they should test it sooner, because I don't think they quite realize how many servers will have FF on, but Norf said they will try to balance it for FF on as well as they can. So it seems to me that instead of yelling "Another perfect example of why the devs don't know what they're doing." just try to help fix it for FF off now, and than help when FF is on.
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Thorn

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2010, 06:48:52 pm »
No respectable server but BG has had FF off in the 3 years I've been playing. 

Yeah fuck you too with your arrogant views

NotYarou

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2010, 07:57:20 pm »
If you really want an FF server to play on, there are plenty running GPP with FF on.
It's fine to have your opinion, but don't expect everyone to agree with you (much less the developers).

Caffeine

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2010, 11:15:26 pm »
I'm just going to make a new thread. What I wanted to say here deserves it's own topic.

Norfenstein

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Re: Need a 1.2 FF server
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2010, 11:20:15 pm »
I think if you are going to change to testing with ff sometime, you should change it in the middle of a "phase" that you already find to be somewhat stable, so that you know what to change *before* the next phase has begun. Plus, if you start it at the beginning of another phase, and things don't turn out the way you thought, you will be left to wonder if it's the ff or something different that's throwing off the balance. In short, isolate the variable by adding it by itself rather than in a clump of other (shitty tremulous.h changes)stuff.
That's not a bad suggestion, but the whole point of "finishing with FF off first" is that we'd arrive at something stable, before starting with FF on. So it would be isolated enough. Doing it in cycles like you suggest might have been a better strategy, but as of right now I don't expect to make any changes in the next phase that would be big enough destabilize anything. And I strongly suspect that just changing friendly fire isn't going to necessitate very many gameplay changes anyway, if any at all.