Dear Development Team!

[Caffeine]

I began typing out a response on the FF on thread started by Liskey.

I then realized that What I felt needed to be said deserved it's own thread.

First and foremost let me say this, and I can't possibly emphasize it enough

"TREMULOUS IS A COMMUNITY PROJECT"

I have only been actively posting on these forums for a few short weeks. However I've read the development material for quite some time. Recently I decided that my opinions needed to be heard. I've been kicking and screaming about things like the new turrets, the fact that pounce has become the main damage source for goons, and several other things. I DO NOT EXPECT ALL OF MY IDEAS TO BE IMPLEMENTED, NOR ALL OF MY OPINIONS TO BE AGREED WITH! I'm not that egotistical. I'm not a pro player, I'm no wizard with code, I'm not the oldest player, I don't have all the best ideas. I am a tiny part of this large community, but I'm opinionated, and if this is the last post I'm ever able to make here I hope that it at least has an impact.

Dear Development Team:

First let me commend all your time and effort. That being said, I am very unhappy with some of the things I see. The main reason is that nothing is ever properly explained. The second reason is that it would seem that the developers have walled themselves off from the rest of us players. I play for hours on end every day, randomly throughout the day... sadly i have no life other than my girlfriend, school and trem. That makes it seem like they care more about the statistics than the feel of the gameplay. I rarely ever see anyone from the dev team playing.

Nobody from the dev team is giving reasons for the things being done other than "it's to balance and improve the game"

For example the FF thread started by Liskey. Norf responded to our comments but never gave a reason as to WHY FF needs to stay off, he only said

It will be in phase four if I don't feel that any other changes are necessary that would be significant enough to need more testing on their own. I think I'm satisfied with stamina and I don't expect the goon to need anything major, but I'm not sure what's going to happen with the flamer, and I'm thinking about something else that might be somewhat impactful.

Even after Ozzy's very pointed argument:

I think if you are going to change to testing with ff sometime, you should change it in the middle of a "phase" that you already find to be somewhat stable, so that you know what to change *before* the next phase has begun. Plus, if you start it at the beginning of another phase, and things don't turn out the way you thought, you will be left to wonder if it's the ff or something different that's throwing off the balance. In short, isolate the variable by adding it by itself rather than in a clump of other _{(shitty tremulous.h changes)}stuff.

Nobody ever gave us a roadmap, or plan. Nobody has even told us when phase 4 is planned to happen other than "soon" and nobody said "this is why FF is going to stay off, and here is the logic behind this decision"

I'm not saying I'd necessarily agree with any explanation provided but at least there would BE one.

I see no coherent direction that the game is going. The changes being made seem terribly arbitrary to me. After all, with the smoke and mirrors we're given when we ask "why is this the way it is" it's very discouraging.

It seems like the community isn't allowed behind the closed doors of the development team's secret bunker. The community should not be an afterthought, but rather part of the ENTIRE development process. IMHO if you're not going to let us help decide where the game is headed, you might as well just start charging us a monthly fee and give yourselves a salary because that's not an open community, that's exactly like the developers at Microsoft Game Studios. Here's how they do it:

Code: [Select]

Change things they want to change
Look at some statistics
Change some more things based solely on those statistics
Check the stats
Make more decisions without consulting the community that plays the game

I love this game. Hell I've spent more time on trem than any other game in my entire 19 years. I want to give back to the community as much as it's given me. I write stories, suggest new things, loudly and as often as I can I state my opinions and the logic behind them. I try to promote intelligent, active and skillful play as much as I can. If I had extra cash I'd donate gladly, I'd code if i knew how, I'd write official wiki entries or lore if I was deemed worthy.

I wish the devs were more open about their secret plans for this game, because as of now they might as well copyright trademark and lock up the code for the "Official" version of trem. because right now nobody but them knows the plan, and therefore it's not open to discussion.

Please stop being cloak and dagger about the planned additions/changes to trem in the next phase of the GPP so that people can have a voice about it.

My point in saying all this (tl;dr): I love this game, but I hate the fact that I can't see what's happening to it till it's already done and then I'm told "get used to it, stop complaining" when I've got an opinion to voice. I'd like to help better the community any way I can, even if it's voicing criticism about the devs.

Sorry guys, I just feel like you've let us all down especially in the communication department.

For Tremulous,
Caffeine

[Manbearpig@SRM]

Sorry guys, I just feel like you've let >>>me<<< down especially in the communication department.

fixed for ya.  Dont for a moment think you represent this community.  These guys are spending plenty of their own valuable time writing new code, and doing a bang-up job of trying to balance everything out.  Your whiny "i deserve better" attitude is sickening.

[your face]

fixed for ya.  Dont for a moment think you represent this community.  These guys are spending plenty of their own valuable time writing new code, and doing a bang-up job of trying to balance everything out.  Your whiny "i deserve better" attitude is sickening.

go away x server noob

[mooseberry]

Sorry guys, I just feel like you've let >>>me<<< down especially in the communication department.

fixed for ya.  Dont for a moment think you represent this community.  These guys are spending plenty of their own valuable time writing new code, and doing a bang-up job of trying to balance everything out.  Your whiny "i deserve better" attitude is sickening.

I DO NOT EXPECT ALL OF MY IDEAS TO BE IMPLEMENTED, NOR ALL OF MY OPINIONS TO BE AGREED WITH! I'm not that egotistical. I'm not a pro player, I'm no wizard with code, I'm not the oldest player, I don't have all the best ideas. I am a tiny part of this large community, but I'm opinionated, and if this is the last post I'm ever able to make here I hope that it at least has an impact.

Did you read all of his post, or could you only concentrate on the big red letters?

I think a lot of what he says is a bit ignorant, but now you are bashing him, when (as it seems so far) he set out to give his feedback to improve Tremulous. Maybe it's very useful advice, maybe it is, but he is trying, while you are just trying to insult him. Go away if you won't contribute and just want to flame.

Now, @ Caffeine, "

Nobody from the dev team is giving reasons for the things being done other than "it's to balance and improve the game"

That seems like a good reason to me...?

Part of the reason they didn't announce when part 4 is coming out, is because (I would guess) they don't know themselves. When previous parts seem balanced, I guess they will move on.

Now, I agree, often times Tremulous development can appear confusing, convolted, and pretty hidden. BUT...

There is actually a fair ammount of things explained, check out the thread dedicated to questions like the ones you have --> http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=11859.0

I would also mention that while the more they involve the community in their development the better, (from MY point of view, anyways) they are not obligated to, and may have good reasons for keeping certain things under the hood for periods of time.

One important thing is, I think you (and any devs) will get a lot more out of this thread if you mentioned specific things you were wondering about/ didn't understand, etc. There has been a TON of community feedback on 1.2, see the hundreds of threads, and know that there were many ingame, irc etc feedback that may have changed things you didn't see. So if there is some specific part that you would like made clear, it would be worth a lot more to everyone if you specifically mentioned those parts, not just the general idea of "they are hiding their work."

Also,

I love this game. Hell I've spent more time on trem than any other game in my entire 19 years. I want to give back to the community as much as it's given me. I write stories, suggest new things, loudly and as often as I can I state my opinions and the logic behind them. I try to promote intelligent, active and skillful play as much as I can. If I had extra cash I'd donate gladly, I'd code if i knew how,

So do those things, your reasons for not don't impress anyone. While again, you are not obligated to contribute something, you always are able to, (open source ftw), and

I'd write official wiki entries or lore if I was deemed worthy.

Deemed worthy...? The entire point of a wiki is that anyone can contribute. (Barring specific scenarios, of course.)

Thanks.

[StevenM]

there was never really a lack of communication. ppl have known now for awhile 1.2 was being developed and were encouraged to play on the 1.1 dev server. devs even posted regularly scheduled dev matches on these very forums. problem is imo, people were to busy either playing 1.1 or just never really took the time to play in any dev games. nor did they supply any constructive feedback. we all just expected the devs to code 1.2 and itd be up to par with our expectations, which is highly unreasonable. anyway, just what i believe.

alot of people are being highly critical. these people do have lives outside of trem, jobs, school, and other commitments, lets not forget that. so expecting a timeline of everything that happens is just stupid. i order to move through phases you need data. devs have no control over this, so how do you expect them do give you a solid satisfactory answer? if you were here for the first beta, youd know that they followed a similar process and it turned out pretty great id say. have a little faith in the devs.

[SlackerLinux]

"TREMULOUS IS A COMMUNITY PROJECT"

this isnt really true if trem was a community project everyone would have commit access

tremulous is the project of the trem devs we can only suggest changes(which i often do) they don't have to listen and if you have issues with how they do things tremulous is open source feel free to fork the project Tremfusion was going to head that route.

tbh i like 1.2 theres a few nagging balance issues but im sure theyll be fixed what is really needed though is more features like revert, cgame addon for voip(showing who is talking etc maybe port the voip bar to cgame too), fix for wallwalk bug, voice binds(ioquake3 has this ability will they be in final 1.2?), few more emoticons(wouldnt mind a green tick and a red cross could be useful to be used in some commands), fixes for server crash i have seen players on official server get booted for errors a few times sofar but no fix has been committed yet i hope those issues are being looked into.

[mooseberry]

voice binds(ioquake3 has this ability will they be in final 1.2?)

If you mean vsays, those have been rumored forever.

Here

[SlackerLinux]

voice binds(ioquake3 has this ability will they be in final 1.2?)

If you mean vsays, those have been rumored forever.

Here

yep i know TF wants to do a set but havent really heard much official from devs and they are not in the GPP who knows we might get em in official

[mooseberry]

voice binds(ioquake3 has this ability will they be in final 1.2?)

If you mean vsays, those have been rumored forever.

Here

yep i know TF wants to do a set but havent really heard much official from devs and they are not in the GPP who knows we might get em in official

I was under the impression that that was a dev's picture. Anyways, here is a bunch of sounds from the website of developer Jex.

http://jex.vilkacis.net/trem/sounds/

Of course, these are old, and who knows if they mean anything, but it's some proof for hope.

[Asvarox]

http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=12136.msg179732#msg179732
I don't know if they actually contacted him, but that's quite offtopic

[Caffeine]

I just really wish they had a sort of "weekly update" or something. Saying things like "This is what we've done this week, this is our plan for next week" and better responses to people asking questions like "why has goon pounce become the main source of damage" instead of just "we decided that" or "for balance" I would like to know WHY not just that it's a balance thing. I KNOW it's a balance thing, but I want to know WHY they believe it will make balance better and why chomp wasn't just adjusted.

[janev]

Easy there...  

I assume you've heard the saying "too many cooks spoil the broth". There are many ways to get to a balanced solution and they sure as hell can't all be done at the same time. Consider how many people would like to have their say as to which direction trem goes. Consider that some of their points will be very well thought out and make a heap of sense in isolation. The problem is it has to fit together... They need a coherent direction. That's where norfenstein comes in. 

I just really wish they had a sort of "weekly update" or something. Saying things like "This is what we've done this week, this is our plan for next week" and better responses to people asking questions like "why has goon pounce become the main source of damage" instead of just "we decided that" or "for balance" I would like to know WHY not just that it's a balance thing. I KNOW it's a balance thing, but I want to know WHY they believe it will make balance better and why chomp wasn't just adjusted.

Raawr! I disurv to nuw! j/k. Seriously if you want to be in the loop you have to get plugged into the information. I'll leave it up to you to find it. You cant expect people to be writing you reports about what they are doing in their free time. Sorry to tell you this but you are not their manager

[UniqPhoeniX]

A possible reason for a seeming lack of answers is that people keep asking the same questions, and devs are tired of answering them... There really have been tens of threads on 1.2, and many are about the same few things. Also some people post before they get fully used to 1.2, before they learn to use the changes properly, thinking that something has been nerfed/buffed without thinking of the other changes that balance it out. Some roles of weapons/classes have changed, and if they try to play like it was 1.1, they'll fail, and then complain.

[Caffeine]

Well i played 1.2 for about a month and had gotten used to the changes and new class roles.

Something else just happened in GPP-3, none of my binds accept binds work anymore.

If anyone knew me back in the days when I was just getting started, as a total newbie they know that I was a pretty chill guy who never really raged at anything.
I'm leaving trem, because all I do anymore is get mad. I'm sorry for my excessive rage over the past few months, it's only been getting worse and worse because of things that happen

Goodbye. Good luck to everyone.

[player1]

try cutting down and see if that helps with ur inexplicable rage issues xD

[Norfenstein]

For example the FF thread started by Liskey. Norf responded to our comments but never gave a reason as to WHY FF needs to stay off

Was this really not good enough?

And regardless of whether most people prefer it one way, I'm going to try to make the game acceptable to people that have either opinion.

I really didn't think I had to justify trying to please everyone. Truth is, I personally prefer it off, and it's only because so many other people have the opposite opinion that I've gotten serious about making sure the game is good with it on too.

Even after Ozzy's very pointed argument:

I don't read the forums every day. I work more than 40 hours a week, so please allow a reasonable time frame for me to get to everyone. Sometimes I don't even reply immediately because I want to take the time to formulate a good response. See this post for an example.

Nobody has even told us when phase 4 is planned to happen other than "soon"

Because nobody knows yet.

I just really wish they had a sort of "weekly update" or something. Saying things like "This is what we've done this week, this is our plan for next week"

I don't know about the other devs (because unlike what you might imagine, we don't get together for meetings to discuss action plans), but right now I hardly ever have anything interesting to say. I watch and play Tremulous until a decision about what to do next coalesces. And lately when I do begin to settle on what to change, I've been running my thoughts passed people in games and IRC before making the final decision.

and better responses to people asking questions like "why has goon pounce become the main source of damage" instead of just "we decided that" or "for balance" I would like to know WHY not just that it's a balance thing. I KNOW it's a balance thing, but I want to know WHY they believe it will make balance better and why chomp wasn't just adjusted.

I don't remember you ever asking me that, because if you had I probably would have just answered you.

In fact, I set up an entire thread specifically so people could ask me about choices that were made. The development period that culminated in 1.2GPP was so long that I couldn't possibly remember the reason for every little thing, but I realized that many decisions would seem inexplicable without having followed along the whole time (which I wouldn't expect of anyone).

Sorry guys, I just feel like you've let us all down especially in the communication department.

Communication goes two ways. People that involve themselves in the development/testing process by playing on the official servers and talking with me here and on IRC know what's going on, and if they seem reasonably insightful and open-minded I listen to their advice. I had actually expected you to become such a person -- I only remember playing one game with you, but I was actually glad to see you since, from reading the forum, you seemed worth listening to. But that entire game all you did was complain, out of obvious frustration. So maybe it's good you're taking a break.

[MitSugna]

try cutting down and see if that helps with ur inexplicable rage issues xD

true that

[frazzler]

I can understand where caffeine is coming from almost the entire way through. As he said, I do not agree with all of it, but I do agree about the part where he said that 'devs are shutting the door to their secret bunker' or something like that. I agree one thousand and ten percent. They say 'iz too ficks balans adn gaemplaey.' However, as MANY people have stated, aliens are severely underpowered and have lost their pizzaz. Humans have had SOME nerfs, but the amount of buffs negates said nerfs. Aliens buffs are... cooler chooperz? and...mara zap+silent footsteps. Although the zap and footsteps are useless if you chain-sniped before you can get close enough to use these abilities.

tremulous most certainly IS a community project, and it is really disappointing to see the devs shutting doors. On almost every 1.2 topic, there has been very little developer input, and when they actually do give their 2 cents, its merely them telling us to shut up or that the topic is gay.

I don't hate the devs, I love trem. Not many people have the knowledge of what makes a good game to create something as amazing as tremulous. Trem 1.2 is still an amazing game, but it's slightly less amazing than 1.1. I just want to see the devs buckle the fuck down and work on 1.2 the way they should.

[StevenM]

I can understand where caffeine is coming from almost the entire way through. As he said, I do not agree with all of it, but I do agree about the part where he said that 'devs are shutting the door to their secret bunker' or something like that. I agree one thousand and ten percent. They say 'iz too ficks balans adn gaemplaey.' However, as MANY people have stated, aliens are severely underpowered and have lost their pizzaz. Humans have had SOME nerfs, but the amount of buffs negates said nerfs. Aliens buffs are... cooler chooperz? and...mara zap+silent footsteps. Although the zap and footsteps are useless if you chain-sniped before you can get close enough to use these abilities.

tremulous most certainly IS a community project, and it is really disappointing to see the devs shutting doors. On almost every 1.2 topic, there has been very little developer input, and when they actually do give their 2 cents, its merely them telling us to shut up or that the topic is gay.

I don't hate the devs, I love trem. Not many people have the knowledge of what makes a good game to create something as amazing as tremulous. Trem 1.2 is still an amazing game, but it's slightly less amazing than 1.1. I just want to see the devs buckle the fuck down and work on 1.2 the way they should.

aliens are underpowered because you suck, thats why you "THINK" they are underpowered. no one knows how to adapt. everyone bitching about 1.2 thinks that their 1.1 style of play will translate to 1.2. then when they realize its got a unique gameplay/style, which is fun. However, because they are constantly getting owned, they resort to excuses or they blame devs.

now im not trying to flame here, its just ALOT of people dont explain themselves properly. not only do you guys offer no legit complaints in terms of gameplay. "DUDE BRO, 1.2 SUCKS BECAUSE IT SUCKS OKAYYY MAN, LIKE LOOK AT IT JUST, PLAY IT FOR REALZ." if you cant think of anything legit to bring forth, along with some real constructive feedback, why bother posting?

you arent helping the cause with your constant bitching/complaining. you only further confuse the devs. tell them what YOU think is wrong, and some realistic ways of fixing the problem.

for those of you who think its a waste of time? dont think the devs will hear you out?

Anyway, there are definitely some tweaks needed.
   - Stamina - huge problem. I should not be punished for being able to kill 2-3 goons in quick succession, but I am. After 2 goons, I no longer have enough stamina to avoid a dretch, which almost always results in my death because of stamina, not because I couldn't dodge well enough. This is not fun; in fact, it's very annoying. One of the devs said that realism wasn't a major concern for Tremulous development, so that shouldn't be the argument here. Since the stats seem to show that 1.2 is balanced more towards aliens (though that is very debatable), there shouldn't be a huge concern in overpowering humans - sprinting is not that quick against bigger aliens, after all, and dretches and basilisks should rarely charge head-on, anyway. In 1.1, I never experienced this problem, and I probably sprint less now than I did then. I also try to conserve my stamina as much as possible between fights (I always use toggleSprint, and I always toggle it off when I am not fighting). Please increase the stamina. Many other people I've played with agree - low stamina is too limiting.
   - Goon pounce - I still disagree with this. Pouncing is much easier to do than chomping is; this is a case of making it too easy for new players to do well. It is very, very hard to dodge a good pouncer. I've just 1v1ed a good player in devmap on atcs, goon vs any s2 human. Pouncing was extremely easy, especially because of the range and the knockback. My opponent was hard to goon in 1.1; in 1.2, I believe he killed me only 3-4 times out of over 30. Dodge doesn't really help too much against pounce, either, considering the stamina issues. As an alien, chomping has a rather limited use. I survive far longer pouncing humans + dodging their shots at the same time than I do by chomping; I also try a lot less. I will admit that I'm still not used to the chomp range/width changes, so that is most likely a big factor with chomps, but that doesn't change how overpowered pounce is. Chomping takes much more skill than pouncing does, yet pouncing is almost as strong if not stronger than chomping is (taking into consideration speed, evasion and knockback as well as damage).
   - Goon chomping - I have no problem with the width reduction; that part is good. In 1.1, it was too easy to *kind of* miss a human with a goon and still hit; that seems to have been fixed. However, the range nerf was just too much. Yes, I can still chomp with a goon if I just stay really close to a human, but that nerfs the goon's ability to dodge/fight multiple humans. Also, sometimes I stand directly in front of a still human (as in, a human just shooting and not moving), and just chomp (I'm pretty close to the human at this point), and it misses because of the range nerf. This just takes away the feeling of power I used to get when playing as a dragoon; now I just pounce instead.
   - Marauders just feel slower. Maybe I need to jump differently, but they just feel much slower.

All of these gripes reflect a difference in philosophy, I suppose. I prefer a game in which what you can do is limited by your skill, not by nerfs in the game. 1.2 and Tremulous as a whole mostly support this preference, but these issues prevent it from being fully realized.

Thoughts?

AND NOW THE DEVS REPLY?

Well, the dust is beginning to settle for 1.2. I think we've all had a fair amount of time to adjust to the major changes, and, having let GPP phase two marinate for several weeks longer than phase one, I think we can trust that the statistics collected over this period more-or-less accurately reflect the genuine state of the game. And there's been an improvement.

Gameplay Changes for Phase 3

Second, a frequent complaint I've heard is that humans have too little stamina for sprinting and dodging. This hadn't really seemed like an issue to me, but I don't disagree with the negative feedback. See this post if you want to know how I decided what to change.

• Reduced sprinting's drain on stamina 8 -> 6
• Changed the stamina threshold for jumping and dodging to the slowing threshold (-500) plus the cost of jumping or dodging (250 for both)
• Increased the stamina restoration rate for standing 25 -> 30

Lastly, the dragoon has probably been the biggest point of contention since the start of the 1.2 gameplay preview. I think everyone has had plenty of time to get used to the new bite range and it seems like a significant number of people still feel it's too short. Moreover, I've come to agree that in bigger games it does feel a little inadequate (my guess is because it's more important to be able to pivot between targets). I think a small change is warranted.

• Dragoon base chomp range increased 72 -> 80

The pounce, in contrast, seems to be considered by a lot of people to be overpowered. I don't necessarily agree that it's too overpowered, but I have felt for a while that it's slightly too hard to dodge -- mostly when the goon doesn't actually make contact with you, but flies past and hits you on the way. A range decrease (mechanically, the pounce works just like every other melee weapon) should make these attacks a little harder while having no impact on direct hits.

• Dragoon pounce range reduced 54 -> 40

There will be a GPP phase four. If none of the above changes turn out to be regressions my plan is to just turn on friendly fire on both servers and see what happens.

[temple]

If people aren't basing their feedback on 1.1 experience, then what are they to use?  I thought 1.2 was supposed to be an improvement to 1.1.  But instead, people are treating 1.2 like a entirely different game, just with the same models.  You might as well give it a different name.

This whole 'u suck' rebuttal to any criticism to 1.2 is kind of strange how 1.2 is supposed to be easier for beginners.  If the vets haven't adapted to 1.2, how do you think the beginners feel?  It is contradictory to make humans more flexible and accessable then turn around a nerf aliens over and over.  But hey now pounce does 100000000 damage!

[UniqPhoeniX]

StevenM +1

If people aren't basing their feedback on 1.1 experience, then what are they to use?  I thought 1.2 was supposed to be an improvement to 1.1.  But instead, people are treating 1.2 like a entirely different game, just with the same models.  You might as well give it a different name.

This whole 'u suck' rebuttal to any criticism to 1.2 is kind of strange how 1.2 is supposed to be easier for beginners.  If the vets haven't adapted to 1.2, how do you think the beginners feel?  It is contradictory to make humans more flexible and accessable then turn around a nerf aliens over and over.  But hey now pounce does 100000000 damage!

You just totally missed the point. 1.2 requires different use of classes/weapons, the roles have changed. And you have forgotten how long it takes to become very good in 1.1. Not 20hours. Not 1 month. Usually even half a year is not enough. Aliens also received buffs: barb splash, basi grab and gas, trample, zap, granger and dretch speed, hives, and those are only what I can think of off the top of my head...

[Plague Bringer]

If people aren't basing their feedback on 1.1 experience, then what are they to use?  I thought 1.2 was supposed to be an improvement to 1.1.  But instead, people are treating 1.2 like a entirely different game, just with the same models.  You might as well give it a different name.

This whole 'u suck' rebuttal to any criticism to 1.2 is kind of strange how 1.2 is supposed to be easier for beginners.  If the vets haven't adapted to 1.2, how do you think the beginners feel?  It is contradictory to make humans more flexible and accessable then turn around a nerf aliens over and over.  But hey now pounce does 100000000 damage!

Mhm. It seems as though the devs are making aliens stronger as a whole while nerfing their individual parts (but yes, one class has a super move, so it's balanced!), and doing the opposite for the humans?

[StevenM]

If people aren't basing their feedback on 1.1 experience, then what are they to use?  I thought 1.2 was supposed to be an improvement to 1.1.  But instead, people are treating 1.2 like a entirely different game, just with the same models.  You might as well give it a different name.

This whole 'u suck' rebuttal to any criticism to 1.2 is kind of strange how 1.2 is supposed to be easier for beginners.  If the vets haven't adapted to 1.2, how do you think the beginners feel?  It is contradictory to make humans more flexible and accessable then turn around a nerf aliens over and over.  But hey now pounce does 100000000 damage!

you obviously have yet to open the 1.2 stats webpage. i see many recognized players all within top 50 concerning scores. so people are adapting quite well id say. its just the few thick-headed people who refuse to open their minds that dont really find themselves owning noobs. 1.2 is supposed to be an improvement on gameplay, specifically addressing some balance issues brought upon us by earlier members of the community. How the fuck do you improve something if you dont address issues from the first release. which has clearly been done imo. if you disagree then give me one example, besides camping, which cant be difrectly addressed. as for overall difficulty level of the game, if you wanna fucking play an easy game, do me a favour, buy yourself a wii and never so yourself on a trem server or on these forums. lifes not easy, deal with it. yeah pounce does more damage, its called dodging or using your surroundings, ie a corner to out maneuver the goon.

[MitSugna]

"TREMULOUS IS A COMMUNIST PROJECT"

huh?

[temple]

words

What are you saying?

I didn't mention alien balance in my post.  Why are you bringing them up and not humans?

if you disagree then give me one example, besides camping, which cant be difrectly addressed. as for overall difficulty level of the game, if you wanna fucking play an easy game, do me a favour,

Norf is the one that has stated that he wanted tremulous to be more beginner friendly, not me.

[StevenM]

well. humans are a bit more friendly. but aliens will always take some time to learn. ive said this like 3 different times. just create a tutorial vid that runs upon installation explaining the know-hows, do's and donts and basic tactics. but no one listens to me so whatever lol.

[Winnie the Pooh]

but no one listens to me

*Camera Fade In

*We see Winnie The Pooh walking along whistling to himself.

Change to camera #8.

*We can hear Pooh Bear humming his theme song, as the camera zooms in for a medium level close-up.

Winnie The Pooh: ..is his friend. And Kanga, and little Roo. There's rabbit and pig-

Young boy: AUUGH!

Winnie The Pooh: ...?

Through a house window, we see a young boy yelling profanities and calling down voodoo curses on his computer, repeatedly mooning it and stabbing it. The boy ties a knife to his buttocks, and does both simultaneously. To the side of the computer, we see a small cord, which we assume is the modem dial-up cord. The cord has been cut, tied together, cut, and tied together again many times, insinuating that the young boy has been gnawing his internet connection cord with his teeth.

Winnie The Pooh: Are you alright?

Young Boy: These idiots! Fools! They know nothing! NOTHING!

Winnie The Pooh: What's the matter?

Young Boy: I tried to warn them, but would they listen? NO. AND NOW, THEY REAP THE JUDGMENT THAT THEY HAVE BROUGHT UPON THEMSELVES! DOOMED!! ALL OF THEM! DOOMED!

*By now, the camera has moved into position so that you can see the french flags positioned in various triumphant poses around the room. It is clear now that the young boy is wearing a beret.

Winnie The Pooh: You aren't french by any chance, are you?

Young Boy: Viva La Vida!

Winnie The Pooh: Knowing the album of a coldplay cd doesn't make you french..

*The young boy is distracted by a notification on his computer, and proceeds to type out a response with his face.

[AppleJuice]

words

I didn't mention alien balance in my post

Yes you did. Here:

It is contradictory to make humans more flexible and accessable then turn around a nerf aliens over and over.  But hey now pounce does 100000000 damage!

My opinion: Don't bother arguing with temple. He's a proven retard and doesn't know how to play, and bases his arguments on some fantasy, not real life tough guy balls deep TREMULOUS.

In addition, I think the dev team is doing a good job in terms of communication. I'm barely active these days, and I still hear a lot about 1.2. If you expect respect, give respect, not constant, baseless criticism.

[temple]

To address the actual point of the thread...

I know people have invested a lot of time into 1.2 and blah blah blah.  That doesn't mean that it is above criticism, that it is balanced, or that the changes were even a good idea in the first place.  If you want people to be open minded to the changes you must be open minded to their criticism.  To think all feedback is going to be positive is immature. 

Feedback can go either way but people just rebut with

• you suck
• this isn't 1.2

.

The problem I have the devs is the fact that some changes are being rebalanced for 1.2.  If you are changing the changes, then obviously something is wrong with what you are doing.  You lose credibility when you dismiss criticism then turn around do the same thing that people asked you to do. 

I think that once the modifications began, the devs figured that they would change some other stuff too.  But actual need or problem these extra changes are meant to address haven't been discussed.  What you end up with is one day....goon pounce deals 1000 damage.  When or where was that ever intended?  You have reasons, of course, but how did we end up in this situation in the first place?  That's what makes me resent some of the patch because I and others have repeatedly said 'why are you changing this?'  Its like you are creating problems just to fix them.  That's not balance, its being stubborn. 

Where do we go from here?  I think the devs need to actually make a case for why somethings need to be changed.  Some things make sense, other things are just cool ideas someone cooked up.  These new ideas have to be balanced and it complicates the process needlessly when you can just resist the temptation to experiment.  Stick with what works, change what didn't.  Anything else creates a different experience that some people, like me, just don't like.  Oh, I understand why things are changing.  But some things just aren't fun now that they are a part of the game. 

[frazzler]

I actually agree with temple here. Vets are struggling with 1.2, so how are beginners going to handle it? I do agree that 1.1 takes a very long time to get good at, but 1.2 takes even longer, and the fun-factor has been slightly dulled, so it's not even worth the time of playing for so long in order to get good.

And for people bitching about people bitching without good reasons, I have this to say:
STOP YER BITCHING!! THERE'S PLENTY OF GOOD REASONS! MANY ARE LISTED IN THIS FUCKING THREAD!!

But instead, people are treating 1.2 like a entirely different game, just with the same models.  You might as well give it a different name.
If the vets haven't adapted to 1.2, how do you think the beginners feel?  It is contradictory to make humans more flexible and accessable then turn around a nerf aliens over and over.

Also, go scan the forums, there's billions of reasons why people prefer 1.1.

I'm almost certain that anyone who says 1.2 is shit, is mentally retarded. It's a really fucking good game. It's just not as good as 1.1, so most people still choose to play 1.1. THIS is the issue.