Dear Development Team!

[StevenM]

ok if there are so many reasons. then give me some? it shouldnt be difficult. why would i go scan the forums. i enjoy both games. i prefer 1.2 because its refreshing and more competitive. it is similar to 1.1, yet unique in its own way, which is what should have been expected. it isnt a whole new game, if you think so, youre a moron. gameplay has changed yes, but at the core, trem is still trem.

the majority of people still play 1.1 because they are mindless noobs who dont even know what 1.2 is. these are also the people who come in-game building trappers on the ground and base nading. so if you want em, you can have em as far as im concerned.

temple you say that we should be open minded to criticism, not bitching and whining. if you want to crticize, then give some opinions on the gameplay and balance. not on the devs communication, thats all bullshit. threads like these are just stupid.

[CATAHA]

the majority of people still play 1.1 because they are mindless noobs who dont even know what 1.2 is.

Very strong opinion, but totally incorrect. Many of really good players checked 1.2 and prefer 1.1. One of main reasons : balance changed for 'more noob-friendly'. We gonna get same situation like years ago, i think. Half of server players will be in spectators, crying 'some1 join aliens please! i wanna be human!'. Oh, ye... i dont like 1.2 term too. Tons of easy-to-do ideas and opinions was posted on this forum. Many bugs found. And instead of working on such things we working on 'let nubz be happy' things. I dont like this but i agree that devs can decide by themself. Only i can say - we waiting for full 1.2 release and preparing some patches for it. After full release we will start some 1.2 servers with '1.1 mode' mod implemented. Ye, and we fixing errors, and adding features.  We also trying make Trem better. And I still think that if devs decide in future apply some community mods to main game it would be good.

[StevenM]

youre missing my point. im saying there are more players on 1.1 as of right now due to a majority of them being younger kids who dont even have a forum account. thus they have no idea about 1.2. good players dont make up a majority of tremulous. crazy pollacks due. plus many of those really good players youre talking about probably didnt even play 100 games. yeah....thats really opening your mind and try to fully experience something before you knock it.

and again with your stupid fucking criticism. what nubz be happy things are you talking about, youre a fucking tool dude. rant was overpowered, fixed. goon was overpowered, fixed. mara needed adjusted, done. basi needed more purpose, purpose. humans obviously needed something more, A NEW, YET TOTALLY UNDER-USED DODGE FEATURE, check. luci needed some changes, when i saw a luci in 1.1 i couldnt help but laugh because i knew it was dead. i could probably solo a luci with nearly any class. pulse and flame were never used, so again purpose.

so again please enlightment me, because most of the stuff ive mentioned were complained about for 2 years after stand alone. i think the devs took a very logical approach to things and made sensible changes. again ive backed up my ideas and opinions with facts in terms of the gameplay and balance. what did you do, you acted like a moron "let nubz be happy". thats deep, really deep, pretty much summarizes 1.2...........

[Plague Bringer]

profanity. rage less, please?

To be clear, for AppleJuice's idiotic (D:) sake..

StevenM, you're bitching about underused (but perfectly viable in good hands) weapons in 1.1, yet you seem to point out that one of the human changes is.. Uhh.. Underused, however viable it is.

humans obviously needed something more, A NEW, YET TOTALLY UNDER-USED DODGE FEATURE, check.

Please, do extrapolate on how the rant and goon were overpowered, how the mara needed adjusting, and why the basi's purpose was scammed directly from another alien?

Yes, 1.2 was a bit broken, but no one's explained quite why these changes were made. Why does goon barb have splash damage? I had an easy enough time sniping before. Why can't dretches hit turrets anymore? Because they can't hit dretches? Doesn't that make them pretty useless in early game? Doesn't that, I dunno, promote camping? Why can the tyrant all of a sudden crush? Is that just a cool feature that someone thought of? That's pretty impractical, if you ask me. Yes, the devs have told us why they made changes, but not why they chose to make these specific changes. Yada yada blah blah blah.

The majority of people who play 1.2 are going to be mindless noobs who don't even know what 1.1 is.

I actually agree with temple here. Vets are struggling with 1.2, so how are beginners going to handle it? I do agree that 1.1 takes a very long time to get good at, but 1.2 takes even longer, and the fun-factor has been slightly dulled, so it's not even worth the time of playing for so long in order to get good.

We "vets" have a tough time adapting to 1.2 because we're trying to play it like 1.1. Tell the truth, I don't like how it's so very different, but it makes sense that we're having a tougher times than newbs will, as we've got to unlearn 1.1 before we can begin to learn 1.2. I've said this before. Until we get our influx of newbs, we won't know how it plays. This'll be post-release.

I think a big issue with these gameplay tests is that the majority of the testers (us, the community, the oldfags) are way too used to 1.1 to effectively play 1.2. A newcomer, yes, would suck, but after getting over the learning curve would begin his path to clan level gaming. Us, on the other hand, basically have to unlearn 1.1 just to start learning 1.2. It'll be a lot easier to build well and play well if we didn't have these old habits hardcoded into our systems. Not sure how games are going to go once 1.2 gets it's large influx of the dreaded Release: Day/Week/Month One Newbies, but I think that'll be the true test of balance (post final version, unfortunately [barring, obviously, the common 1.2.x bug fixes & minor patches]).

[AppleJuice]

wisdom

typical spam

Edit: Your post is very ironic. :} Mostly because most of your points have already been addressed, which is most likely why the devs aren't responding anymore (I don't even think this is true, but for the sake of argument, let's assume so). If I'm barely active and have read their responses regarding these questions, there's really no excuse (especially for the dretches & turrets comment). What I will say is that if you don't already know why the 1.1 tyrant is overpowered, you are not a "vet." You're simply someone who went through the motions of playing Tremulous without thinking about it, and while that is a perfectly valid way to play, that doesn't make your opinions correct (especially about tyrants).

Also, it's really ironic that Plague Bringer, of all people, is flaming someone for losing their temper and using profanity, when that's his trademark style of posting.

Ok, electromagnetism lab time

[MitSugna]

AppleJuice why don't you donate?

[Ryanw4390]

AppleJuice why don't you donate?

Read this.

[Plague Bringer]

Edit: Your post is very ironic. :} Mostly because most of your points have already been addressed, which is most likely why the devs aren't responding anymore (I don't even think this is true, but for the sake of argument, let's assume so). If I'm barely active and have read their responses regarding these questions, there's really no excuse (especially for the dretches & turrets comment). What I will say is that if you don't already know why the 1.1 tyrant is overpowered, you are not a "vet." You're simply someone who went through the motions of playing Tremulous without thinking about it, and while that is a perfectly valid way to play, that doesn't make your opinions correct (especially about tyrants).

Also, it's really ironic that Plague Bringer, of all people, is flaming someone for losing their temper and using profanity, when that's his trademark style of posting.

Ok, electromagnetism lab time

If I recall correctly, dretches were nerfed because they were too good against these turrets, which sort of implies to me that these turrets suck. If the intent of these turrets was to let smaller aliens inside hbase, I think that that certainly begs for people to camp on maps where not all angles can be covered.

Yes, 1.1 rants were op. BUT, did they NEED health and regen nerfs to make them balanced? A lot of the changes seem like they're fixes and addons to not-so-good changes. This makes them, largely, arbitrary seeming.

Anyway, I've bought, built, bit, and have been bitten plenty in 1.1 to recognize what's imba. Goons @ s1? imba. Rant range/width? imba. Rant health+regen/regen+health (whichever order, and it does matter)? imba. Yes, I understand all of this. Extra points for nitpicking and demanding explanations of arguments.

Ramble ramble.

That's all. (:

[player1]

[Kaine]

I approve of this thread.

[temple]

What stuns me is the same people that played and/or made 1.1 have made it forbidden to compare the two patches.

[AppleJuice]

What stuns me is the same people that played and/or made 1.1 have made it forbidden to be retarded

ya

[bob0]

What stuns me is the same people that played and/or made 1.1 have made it forbidden to compare the two patches.

Temple, even though I have no power over the SVN repository, I hereby forbid you to view whichever two patches of the ~500 commits created during the mgdev merge to which you have referred.

[your face]

From reading these posts, the 1.2 supporters are as close-minded as the 1.1 supporters.  

[bob0]

From reading these posts, the 1.2 supporters are as close-minded as the 1.1 supporters.  

Please back up your statement.

[mooseberry]

Well... as much as I usually support 1.2 side of arguments... this thread has pretty much devolved into a buch of shit. "You are retarded." etc.  Both sides seem to have given up trying to discuss and just insult each other. (Although I admit from reading these threads, if I tried to argue with Temple for a long time I would be very tempted to cuss him out too.)

[Asvarox]

As for turrets, I believe it's quite too late to say that they suck, should be reverted/changed/etc. as they were here for like 2 years? People who participated in planned dev games got used to them, you surely can too. Changing something as major will just result in another year of waiting, and wasting last 2 years (not to mention that Norfenstein already stated that he won't do any major changes now).

If I recall correctly, dretches were nerfed because they were too good against these turrets, which sort of implies to me that these turrets suck. If the intent of these turrets was to let smaller aliens inside hbase, I think that that certainly begs for people to camp on maps where not all angles can be covered.

That's great if they decide to camp, rets won't help them and dretches will have their job easier (barely moving human = easy meat).

And you miss one thing - humans seem to camp less (actually it's really rare to see entire human team camping) than in 1.1 which I guess was the point.

[temple]

Its complicated.  The point I think is that some changes in 1.2 have nothing to do with balance.  Goon pounce was a secondary attack in 1.1.  Goon pounce is now a primary attack 1.2.  That isn't a balance issue.  That wasn't a problem with 1.1.  That's just an stylist change.  It was Norf's opinion that pounce should now deal more damage and be more useful in combat than chomp.  I disagree.

So, for some of the argument around 1.2, people are just arguing about opinions.  But when you throw in balance issues, it becomes unclear what the real problem is and what the solution should be.

What confuses me about the whole thing is I and pretty much everyone else here played 1.1 and played goons and like the way goons worked.  So, why was it necessary to change something popular for stylistic reasons?  I can see changing it for balance.  But its like the New Coke or New Pepsi for 90's.  Why try to improve something that was already good enough?  Then on top that, it complicates balance because the new change was untested until now.  It just making things complicated for complicated sake.  

And people want to make it out be a skill issue but really, I just don't like playing goons when you have to pounce all the time.  The issue is bigger than just pounce...stuff like with repeaters makes no sense to me either.  But the point of this post is to say that people aren't just bitching to bitch.  Something things are stylist changes and liking a particular style is an opinion.  People can have different opinions.

[Lava_Croft]

Look here for a much more meaningful take on this subject.
(You can click 'here', really!)

[Kaine]

Welcome back Commander!

[CATAHA]

and again with your stupid fucking criticism. what nubz be happy things are you talking about, youre a fucking tool dude. rant was overpowered, fixed. goon was overpowered, fixed. mara needed adjusted, done. basi needed more purpose, purpose.

May be im not so unbelivable pro, but i know many such players. Players, who using only lisks and rule by lisks. Players, who can take down average tyrant with shotgun. Its seems you just not much expirenced with humans, thats all. With 1.1 balance you can shoot down standart goon with 4 shots easily (if you're moving wisely and aiming good). And its 1 vs 1. Trem 1.1 balanced if you really know how to play using both races. If you prefer sit on turrets 'cauz "scary rants over there" and loosing - then i dont think you can really decide about "overpowered" stuff. I playing weekly russian tournament over 2 months. All I can see - teamplay, skill and attacking rule. Not "who joined aliens - win". You can say everything you want, time will show us who was right.

[Plague Bringer]

If I recall correctly, dretches were nerfed because they were too good against these turrets, which sort of implies to me that these turrets suck. If the intent of these turrets was to let smaller aliens inside hbase, I think that that certainly begs for people to camp on maps where not all angles can be covered.

That's great if they decide to camp, rets won't help them and dretches will have their job easier (barely moving human = easy meat).

And you miss one thing - humans seem to camp less (actually it's really rare to see entire human team camping) than in 1.1 which I guess was the point.

Again, from what I've seen, 1.2GPP is played with (for the most part) competent, experienced players. We'll see camping when we get the kids who are new to the whole concept of Tremulous. This GPP is biased.

[Ingar]

Welcome back Commander!

The rank of commander is indicated by three buttons. Please turn in your geek card.

[Asvarox]

If I recall correctly, dretches were nerfed because they were too good against these turrets, which sort of implies to me that these turrets suck. If the intent of these turrets was to let smaller aliens inside hbase, I think that that certainly begs for people to camp on maps where not all angles can be covered.

That's great if they decide to camp, rets won't help them and dretches will have their job easier (barely moving human = easy meat).

And you miss one thing - humans seem to camp less (actually it's really rare to see entire human team camping) than in 1.1 which I guess was the point.

Again, from what I've seen, 1.2GPP is played with (for the most part) competent, experienced players. We'll see camping when we get the kids who are new to the whole concept of Tremulous. This GPP is biased.

You should play on euro server

[Norfenstein]

Yes, 1.2 was a bit broken, but no one's explained quite why these changes were made. Why does goon barb have splash damage? I had an easy enough time sniping before. Why can't dretches hit turrets anymore? Because they can't hit dretches? Doesn't that make them pretty useless in early game? Doesn't that, I dunno, promote camping? Why can the tyrant all of a sudden crush? Is that just a cool feature that someone thought of? That's pretty impractical, if you ask me. Yes, the devs have told us why they made changes, but not why they chose to make these specific changes. Yada yada blah blah blah.

This is basically what I'm taking away from this whole thread: people didn't ask me questions about things and are now mad that I didn't explain those things to them. Seems an awfully lot like looking for something to complain about.

turrets--;

[StevenM]

anyway his opinion is invalid because he sucks at both 1.2 and 1.1, yet hes been playing for 3 years. im done trying to open people up to 1.2.

[bob0]

anyway his opinion is invalid because he sucks at both 1.2 and 1.1, yet hes been playing for 3 years. im done trying to open people up to 1.2.

Congratulations, you have earned one (1) buttrape from Paradox!

[Conzul]

I've actually found that I can own in 1.1 and 1.2 as both humans and aliens. I prefer the 1.1 setup, though. I will miss it.

[temple]

This is basically what I'm taking away from this whole thread: people didn't ask me questions about things and are now mad that I didn't explain those things to them. Seems an awfully lot like looking for something to complain about.turrets--;

1.2 reverses a lot of the design thinking in 1.1.  Example:  Both teams got 100 (or 101) bp.  The game was balanced around that fact.  That was vanilla tremulous.  Server operator could as they chose.  Now aliens get 100+ bp and repeaters cost but get free structures.  

Am I allowed to complain about the fact that aliens have to risk an egg (and feeding/spawn camping) to extend their base and humans don't?  

Trust me, I know what you are going to say before you say it.  And its a cop out.  The absolutely unquestionably balanced solution (to something that isn't even neccessary) would to make the booster provide its own creep.  But see, then aliens would get a booster for 12 bp and not 22 (which is the real cost of a forward booster) and humans don't (which a forward ret in 1.1 cost a whopping 8 bp and in 1.2....wait for it...12 bp...the same as a booster) and OMG THE STATS LOOK AT THE STATS ALIENS WIN MORE OH SHIIIIIII

[bob0]

This is basically what I'm taking away from this whole thread: people didn't ask me questions about things and are now mad that I didn't explain those things to them. Seems an awfully lot like looking for something to complain about.turrets--;

1.2 reverses a lot of the design thinking in 1.1.  Example:  Both teams got 100 (or 101) bp.  The game was balanced around that fact.  That was vanilla tremulous.  Server operator could as they chose.  Now aliens get 100+ bp and repeaters cost but get free structures.  

Am I allowed to complain about the fact that aliens have to risk an egg (and feeding/spawn camping) to extend their base and humans don't?  

Trust me, I know what you are going to say before you say it.  And its a cop out.  The absolutely unquestionably balanced solution (to something that isn't even neccessary) would to make the booster provide its own creep.  But see, then aliens would get a booster for 12 bp and not 22 (which is the real cost of a forward booster) and humans don't (which a forward ret in 1.1 cost a whopping 8 bp and in 1.2....wait for it...12 bp...the same as a booster) and OMG THE STATS LOOK AT THE STATS ALIENS WIN MORE OH SHIIIIIII

Actually, 1.1 was designed around the idea that marauders and maybe more were fast, and not that both teams had the same number of build points.  The developers are trying to ruin the game, man!  They just don't want us to know.  BTW, 1.2 is now balanced around the idea that tyrants should not be able to claw humans. yes both teams got 101bp.  The stats are supposed to lie, but look at them, and humans are OP.

Aliens have to risk building eggs and stuff 'cause when they get 50 more bp and humans get free turrets to go next to repetears, they have to spread them out, but eggs can easily die, and then all the acid tubes and everything next to the egg blows up, and stuff!  Human queue is really fast so repeaterds dying doesn't matter.  Yes, boosters or hives providing their own creep as do eggs do would balance the game very much, and even then after many games and later, but then aliens are overpowered and win many more times!  nob devs.  The game was perfectly balanced and needs no more gameplay changes

This guy has very pointful arguments with sustaining logic and stuff when it comes to 1.1:

< CIA-46> tremulous: * increased tyrant repeat 750 -> 800
< thisguy> that's bull cuz it just happens that the last tyrant can kill all the remaining humies. even if there are no eggs, there will be no nodes soon, as well as no humans, but ONLY if the humies don't get instantly4 stormed with new recruits

but no!  we people need to have more say in changes, because we know what we're talking about!