Dear Development Team!

[StevenM]

i dont see how the whole repeator/booster issue is vaild. what is more useful in terms of gameplay. having some forward rets, leaving your main base less defended. or have a forward booster, allowing you to regen faster and thus constantly keeping rushing the opponent. its a trade off you see. this is the kind of retardness i was flaming about. you guys are very one sided. like norf said, literally looking for complaints and excuses. you simply love to hate 1.2 because its different.

[temple]

i dont see how the whole repeator/booster issue is vaild. what is more useful in terms of gameplay. having some forward rets, leaving your main base less defended. or have a forward booster, allowing you to regen faster and thus constantly keeping rushing the opponent. its a trade off you see. this is the kind of retardness i was flaming about. you guys are very one sided. like norf said, literally looking for complaints and excuses. you simply love to hate 1.2 because its different.

I made a perfectly valid point.  Its not retarded just because you so.  A trade off is a trade off but the cost of a forward booster is not balanced to the cost of a forward ret (or medi). 

[UniqPhoeniX]

First of all: everyone who says vets have a hard time getting used to 1.2: speak for yourself. I got used to it in less then 20 hours. I had read about the changes and knew how to build in 1.2 before I took a ckit.
The rets were changed to make human camp less effective, so aliens could still get kills, and so that smaller classes could actually damage the base. Dretches damaging turrets was removed, because it was overpowered that way. Both of those changes were required to balance things out. Barb splash = more effective against cramped bases.

Players, who using only lisks and rule by lisks. Players, who can take down average tyrant with shotgun.... With 1.1 balance you can shoot down standart goon with 4 shots easily (if you're moving wisely and aiming good)...... If you prefer sit on turrets 'cauz "scary rants over there" and loosing - then i dont think you can really decide about "overpowered" stuff. I playing weekly russian tournament over 2 months. All I can see - teamplay, skill and attacking rule. Not "who joined aliens - win".

Lisks shouldn't be just for 3-4 players in the entire Tremulous community. If you can take down a rant with shotgun, CONSISTENTLY not just once, then the rant sux. If you get to shoot 4 (or usually you need more) shots in the goon, and the goon doesn't tear your head off or just pounce away first, then the goon wasn't very good. It doesn't matter WHY someone camps, what matters is that they can camp for half an hour without losing and thus make the game boring.

Both teams got 100 (or 101) bp.  The game was balanced around that fact. That was vanilla tremulous. Now aliens get 100+ bp and repeaters cost but get free structures.

...The absolutely unquestionably balanced solution (to something that isn't even neccessary) would to make the booster provide its own creep.  But see, then aliens would get a booster for 12 bp and not 22 (which is the real cost of a forward booster) and humans don't (which a forward ret in 1.1 cost a whopping 8 bp and in 1.2....wait for it...12 bp...the same as a booster)

Well 1.2 ain't 1.1, so no more 100bp for both teams. And less similarity between teams = better. And you just proved you don't have a clue how 1.2 repeaters work.
We need some sort of stat other then karma, which only devs can change, that shows how many times people have: overly exaggerated/talked bullshit/about things they don't understand. And then ban the top 5-10 from commenting on 1.2.

[Plague Bringer]

1.2 repeaters work.
We need some sort of stat other then karma, which only devs can change, that shows how many times people have: overly exaggerated/talked bullshit/about things they don't understand. And then ban the top 5-10 from commenting on 1.2.

Abuse!

Temple: Repeaters cost 4bp, give power to a small area, and work off a completely seperate bp pool than the reactor. A forward base only takes 4bp away from hmain.

[bob0]

1.2 repeaters work.
We need some sort of stat other then karma, which only devs can change, that shows how many times people have: overly exaggerated/talked bullshit/about things they don't understand. And then ban the top 5-10 from commenting on 1.2.

Abuse!

Temple: Repeaters cost 4bp, give power to a small area, and work off a completely seperate bp pool than the reactor. A forward base only takes 4bp away from hmain.

yes but you have forgetten the fact that aliens still risk building eggs.  But, irregardless, humans need to be able to actually rush, but when aliens have 207 bp then they will rush slowly because aliens are attacking and they need to camp and not rush to win.  But then aliens are more spammy and they will risk building eggs. dcs are just useless like they should be.

Then you also need to take into account the speed of aliens, but they are fast, so you can't balance just by looking at statistisc and go "Hey, aliens are winning 200 games but humans only did won 10 games, aliens are op!" because you can't balance like that

[temple]

Temple: Repeaters cost 4bp, give power to a small area, and work off a completely seperate bp pool than the reactor. A forward base only takes 4bp away from hmain.

I know that.  Eggs cost 10 bp and can be used to feed or spawn camp.  Both regen something, eggs/boosters make creep to regen aliens, repeaters regen energy weapons.  A forward booster increases damage, a forward ret can defend a point.  My point is simply, the only drawback to a forward repeater is 4 less bp.  Eggs are far riskier, even if aliens have 150 bp to attempt to cover the bp price difference.  And even then, aliens have to pay more for a defense structure on top of that (which only hives can really compete in the defense category and they cost the same as a booster).  So, once again, it is tilted so humans get more benefit from the bp/repeater change than the aliens.  


My whole point is that I or others aren't just complaining to complain.  This is a legitimate issue that people handwave or make cop-out rebuttals to because they don't want to hear any criticism.

[bob0]

THE BACON IS READY

I hope I've made myself clear if I haven't yet at this point.

[Silver]

I think lowering the powerless structure life/raising the creepless structure life would solve the majority of that issue?

Things without power sit there forever and it's really easy to build a new repeater in time, however, a creep goes down and that forward booster etc goes down in literally seconds.

I think a full 60 seconds either way would work best for me.  Of course make tubes with no creep nearby de-activated so they don't do anything, but they don't need to pop apart so fast, especially with the slow BP que rate.

[Asvarox]

Aliens have moving booster known as lisk which allow them to "constantly keeping rushing" humans base without spending any bp, while humans simply cant do than. Not to metion, that it's far easier for alien to kill ret/repeater than for human to kill egg/booster. On the other hand forward booster is available at s2 while you can build forward medi right away.

Differences between teams make Tremulous interesting.

[FisherP]

I don't know about the other devs (because unlike what you might imagine, we don't get together for meetings to discuss action plans), but right now I hardly ever have anything interesting to say. I watch and play Tremulous until a decision about what to do next coalesces. And lately when I do begin to settle on what to change, I've been running my thoughts passed people in games and IRC before making the final decision.

OK, I understand this, and I really don't know the state in which the current client and server are for 1.2 but I have one question (phrased different ways for understanding and emphasis). If you guys are making decisions about how the things are going and where to go next do you know when to stop for 1.2? Is there a point in your collective minds where you have nominated "That's for the next version"? Have you set limits to this development cycle? Or rather have you made an unconscious decision to stop when you feel it's right? Are you going to stop development when you all feel that it's 100% of what you (and/or the community) want? To put it another way "Is there NO END to the MADNESS"

[temple]

Aliens have moving booster known as lisk which allow them to "constantly keeping rushing" humans base without spending any bp, while humans simply cant do than. Not to metion, that it's far easier for alien to kill ret/repeater than for human to kill egg/booster. On the other hand forward booster is available at s2 while you can build forward medi right away.

Differences between teams make Tremulous interesting.

Humans always can kill alien structures easier because humans are ranged attackers. 
Aliens always have had regeneration of some form. They could always rush.  The lisk only helpful because regeneration was nerfed.  Which even still, the lisk regeneration is dumb but I don't even feel like getting started on it. 

[A Spork]

Lisk regen is awesome.
Makes it so much more useful IMHO.

[Paradox]

Aliens have to risk building eggs and stuff 'cause when they get 50 more bp and humans get free turrets to go next to repetears, they have to spread them out, but eggs can easily die, and then all the acid tubes and everything next to the egg blows up, and stuff!  Human queue is really fast so repeaterds dying doesn't matter.  Yes, boosters or hives providing their own creep as do eggs do would balance the game very much, and even then after many games and later, but then aliens are overpowered and win many more times!  nob devs.  The game was perfectly balanced and needs no more gameplay changes

And this is why people think you are inept

[StevenM]

temple,

i agree with what you are trying to say. but i dont think it has that great of an impact on balance and gameplay. with that being said though, if it were an issue in terms of gameplay or balance. one possibility would to make the booster indepent. specifically, you wouldnt need a creep in the area in order to build it. this would all you to simply build a booster anywhere along the map. At a cost though. the further away from the creep, the less regenerative powers it would have. Now this sounds stupid right because the stock alien regen powers are already decreased, but even a small increase in alien regen would benefit. Another idea would be to make a new structure, maybe a smaller booster with this function that would have less hp edit: and perhaps cost less bps.

obviously i dont know how hard this would be to code, or if the devs would even consider doing it. im just throwing an idea out there. thanks for finally full explaining your view point though. at least now we can get somewhere.

[bob0]

Aliens have to risk building eggs and stuff 'cause when they get 50 more bp and humans get free turrets to go next to repetears, they have to spread them out, but eggs can easily die, and then all the acid tubes and everything next to the egg blows up, and stuff!  Human queue is really fast so repeaterds dying doesn't matter.  Yes, boosters or hives providing their own creep as do eggs do would balance the game very much, and even then after many games and later, but then aliens are overpowered and win many more times!  nob devs.  The game was perfectly balanced and needs no more gameplay changes

And this is why people think you are inept

Apparently, my impression and paraphrasing of a certain poster is either not absurd enough or not obvious enough.

[Norfenstein]

OK, I understand this, and I really don't know the state in which the current client and server are for 1.2 but I have one question (phrased different ways for understanding and emphasis). If you guys are making decisions about how the things are going and where to go next do you know when to stop for 1.2? Is there a point in your collective minds where you have nominated "That's for the next version"? Have you set limits to this development cycle? Or rather have you made an unconscious decision to stop when you feel it's right? Are you going to stop development when you all feel that it's 100% of what you (and/or the community) want? To put it another way "Is there NO END to the MADNESS"

Hey, a real question, asked nicely! +1

Development of Tremulous is rather compartmentalized. I'm really the only one making decisions about the gameplay, and I give little to no input regarding most else. And we really don't get together to make schedules and TODO lists, but I think Timbo, at least, has a solid idea of what constitutes "done". So I'm going to say the only thing that's at all open-ended is this process of testing and refining the gameplay. And my prediction is that I'm going to reach a "done" state before everything else is finished.

Or rather have you made an unconscious decision to stop when you feel it's right?

Nothing unconscious about it. There can't be objective limits to something like this, so I'm going to say "done" when I feel everything is right. And everything is so close to right already that if there were nothing else was left to do for 1.2 I would stop making adjustments right now.

But to be less vague, I'm still unsatisfied with: the flamer, the goon pounce, and the speed of marauders. The first two need some minor adjustments that will take a little more testing, and the change I'm probably going with for the marauder I don't expect to need testing. So I'm really almost done unless friendly fire on horribly breaks something (which I don't expect it to).

[SlackerLinux]

OK, I understand this, and I really don't know the state in which the current client and server are for 1.2 but I have one question (phrased different ways for understanding and emphasis). If you guys are making decisions about how the things are going and where to go next do you know when to stop for 1.2? Is there a point in your collective minds where you have nominated "That's for the next version"? Have you set limits to this development cycle? Or rather have you made an unconscious decision to stop when you feel it's right? Are you going to stop development when you all feel that it's 100% of what you (and/or the community) want? To put it another way "Is there NO END to the MADNESS"

Hey, a real question, asked nicely! +1

Development of Tremulous is rather compartmentalized. I'm really the only one making decisions about the gameplay, and I give little to no input regarding most else. And we really don't get together to make schedules and TODO lists, but I think Timbo, at least, has a solid idea of what constitutes "done". So I'm going to say the only thing that's at all open-ended is this process of testing and refining the gameplay. And my prediction is that I'm going to reach a "done" state before everything else is finished.

Or rather have you made an unconscious decision to stop when you feel it's right?

Nothing unconscious about it. There can't be objective limits to something like this, so I'm going to say "done" when I feel everything is right. And everything is so close to right already that if there were nothing else was left to do for 1.2 I would stop making adjustments right now.

But to be less vague, I'm still unsatisfied with: the flamer, the goon pounce, and the speed of marauders. The first two need some minor adjustments that will take a little more testing, and the change I'm probably going with for the marauder I don't expect to need testing. So I'm really almost done unless friendly fire on horribly breaks something (which I don't expect it to).

see what happens when you ask properly and not demand 1.1 style also thanks for the info on next changes norf its about what i thought might happen in next phase

[temple]

temple,

i agree with what you are trying to say. but i dont think it has that great of an impact on balance and gameplay. with that being said though, if it were an issue in terms of gameplay or balance. one possibility would to make the booster indepent. specifically, you wouldnt need a creep in the area in order to build it. this would all you to simply build a booster anywhere along the map. At a cost though. the further away from the creep, the less regenerative powers it would have. Now this sounds stupid right because the stock alien regen powers are already decreased, but even a small increase in alien regen would benefit. Another idea would be to make a new structure, maybe a smaller booster with this function that would have less hp edit: and perhaps cost less bps.

obviously i dont know how hard this would be to code, or if the devs would even consider doing it. im just throwing an idea out there. thanks for finally full explaining your view point though. at least now we can get somewhere.

I appreciate the response.

[jit]

i don't think the forward eggs are a risk. When you can utilize a forward egg with a booster near a human base, that can lead to constant harassment of the human base. 22bp out of the 150bp isn't much if you know how to build the main base well. and you can attack and heal faster in 1.2 than in 1.1 because of the booster so the eggs can be very valuable. this goes with the repeater as well, u could build an arm and medi at a repeater to make a quick outpost. 1.2 in general makes trem funner in my opinion. if u liked slow games, u can stick to 1.1 but im lookin forward to 1.2 with these changes.

[UniqPhoeniX]

Someone seems to forget that eggs alone increase heal rate as well. So you could even compare egg+boost to 2 medis.

Which even still, the lisk regeneration is dumb but I don't even feel like getting started on it. 

But you did get started on it... Either explain fully or don't mention it, otherwise it is just unconstructive complaining.

[Kaine]

... or just a statement of his opinion on the matter.

Goddamn thought police. 

[bleach]

I can't believe I just wasted twenty minutes of my life reading and trying to understand this.  Long live 1.1! ...or 1.2?  Whichever won't get me flamed. 

[David]

... or just a statement of his opinion on the matter.

Goddamn thought police. 

Have you ever even read 1984?

[StevenM]

the whole repeator/egg+booster thing though has another side that i forgot to mention. with a booster, usually youll have a constant alien presence near it to defend it. not necessarily the case with a forward turret. i know it doesnt explain cost difference etc. but just something else to think about, when arguing a change or the balance.

[Plague Bringer]

I can't believe I just wasted twenty minutes of my life reading and trying to understand this.  Long live 1.1! ...or 1.2?  Whichever won't get me flamed. 

Awesome.

I find that due to the mobility of aliens (and the range of humans), they'll generally put a "forward" booster relatively far back. For example, I find that on ATCS, aliens are comfortable having their forward in their half of the hallway, but humans aren't content having a forward so far from A Main, so they've got to invade alien's territory.

Attached is a shitty doodle of what I mean. These are the most common forwards I've seen on ATCS (1.1 vanilla). Notice that both human and alien forwards are close to A Main, and nowhere near H Main.

[frazzler]

ithis is the kind of retardness i was flaming about. you guys are very one sided. like norf said, literally looking for complaints and excuses. you simply love to hate 1.2 because its different.

You seem very eager to hate everyone who enjoys 1.1 just because they don't share your views. Why are those who enjoy 1.1 able to state the reasons why, without silly haters bombarding the forums with shit like: 'This is my opinion, yours is wrong, stop saying your right'. Then when we post our opinion on what you've said, you come at us with 'Stop hating 1.2 guys, you just hate because it's different'. Isn't that exactly what you're doing now? Hating because our opinion differs from yours?

Also, I liked the fact that instead of actually scanning the forums for reasons why, you just decided to post 'tell me moar reezons'. I take it you found many reasons, and wanted to ask an individuals opinion, so you could tell them they're wrong, because they're opinion is different from yours.

And you called us narrow-minded.

I love Trem. I love 1.2. Sure, I used to hate it, but after many play hours, I've adapted, and I love it. It's an great game, but it has the potential to be an AMAZING game. At the moment, I find 1.1 more entertaining and fun to play than 1.2, which is why I continue to play it.

In summary: Shut your whiny, hypocritical, narrow-minded ass the fuck up and let me play my 1.1s.

[StevenM]

Thats not at all why I've been asking for people to post specific reasons for disliking 1.2 or finding it less enjoyable. but if that makes you feel content, then sure.

[frazzler]

Thats not at all why I've been asking for people to post specific reasons for disliking 1.2 or finding it less enjoyable. but if that makes you feel content, then sure.

If you want real reasons I shall give you some:

1. It is difficult to adapt to.
2. It is difficult for noobs to adapt to even more so than vets of 1.1
3. some changes seem to be irrelevant and provide no real bonus to gameplay.
4. changes have made playing as aliens more frustrating (not necessarily harder, but it feels like it when you're being luci-spammed at your spawn)
5. Humans now seem to camp MORE instead of less, which is why some changes were implemented.
Finally, 6. The game is no longer fun to play. It is far more competitive, which isn't a bad thing, but it's more frustrating, and less fun to play.

[Plague Bringer]

As a general 1.1 supporter I'm going to go Devil's Advocate and pick this apart.

Thats not at all why I've been asking for people to post specific reasons for disliking 1.2 or finding it less enjoyable. but if that makes you feel content, then sure.

If you want real reasons I shall give you some:

1. It is difficult to adapt to.Yeah. So? It's a good argument, but it adds something to Tremulous. Be happy. 1.1 was getting boring.
2. It is difficult for noobs to adapt to even more so than vets of 1.1 Are you a newb to Tremulous? No. Is this an assumption? Yes. My assumption is that the learning curve is a bit less. After all, I'm a slightly above average alien now.
3. some changes seem to be irrelevant and provide no real bonus to gameplay. Agreed.
4. changes have made playing as aliens more frustrating (not necessarily harder, but it feels like it when you're being luci-spammed at your spawn) It's nearly impossible to get frags if you join aliens in the late-game.
5. Humans now seem to camp MORE instead of less, which is why some changes were implemented. No comment. I haven't played enough.
6. The game is no longer fun to play. It is far more competitive, which isn't a bad thing, but it's more frustrating, and less fun to play. Invalid. Opinion. For example, I have more fun playing 1.2. It's much more intense and faster paced (though it's also got more of an arcadey feel to it which I'm not too much a fan of).

[frazzler]

suit yourself. I got my opinions.