Suggestion: helping prevent human camping

[Rippy]

I just thought of something a couple days ago that would do a lot to get humans out of the base. Usually humans just camp because:

- They know they'll get mobbed if they leave
- They aren't confident in being able to accurately hit aliens like marauders and dragoons before they get eaten, so they need to be able to retreat into the base quickly

What I would propose is a stage 2 item called the Cloaking Device. Like you probably guessed, it makes the wearer 95% invisible to enemies, and 50% invisible to teammates (so they can still see him, but can recognise that he's invisible.) The cloak would last 30 seconds and then would take just as long to recharge. Also, the cloaked player would still show up on alien radar, however the alien needs to be twice as close before the player gets registered on the radar. And finally, the cloak automatically shuts off if the player either fires his weapon or starts taking damage; after he stops shooting/taking damage, the cloak takes 5 seconds to fade back to full capacity. Oh, and the unit would cost about 300 or 400 credits (yes, pricy), and all other upgrades on the player will NOT be cloaked, so the player needs to have no armour in order to be completely cloaked. This would resolve balance issues later on in the game.

What this would allow is for humans to, in a way, immitate the gameplay of the aliens. They would be able to leave the base, and stay relatively undetected. Even if they are discovered, they would be difficult to track and kill. And, to prevent the cloak from being abused by humans, it's expensive, using armour in conjunction with it makes it nearly useless, and it only works in 30 second bursts. The only problem I can see with it would be that, if the player still shows up on enemy radar, aliens can just follow the blue dot. Since the player can't outrun an alien, he can't escape radar range. However, removing him from radar altogether would be overpowered.

Wait, I've got it... the blue dot only appears in blips, in 3 second intervals. The three seconds gives the player a chance to escape. Also, when immobile, the player does NOT show up on enemy radar at all (until their cloak runs out of power, of course).

Orrrr the cloak device could come with a "Decoy" feature. When the cloak is activated, your radar position is frozen to your current position, and your real location is invisible until the cloak is powered off, at which point your "frozen" position disappears and aliens can properly track you on radar.

All in all, I think a cloak would encourage humans to leave the base. The only thing I'm not quite sure of is how the radar should work, but that's only a small part of the idea.

[Howitzer]

To my opinion, it's good.
A suggestion: If the cloaked person get's sprayed by an Adv. Basilisks gas, you can see him a bit green, when he get's sprayed by alien defenses, he also get's a bit of that colour. (IE: Tagging him.)

This will be a good measure against camping because now, when the humans' their base is under attack, at least they can get out somewhat safely.

This is also a good way to safely walk to the enemy base.
After all, if the alien team is any good, they'll have a guard at base which would yell all aliens together.
If the alien team sucks and has no defense whatsoever, that team should've lost anyway

Would be hard to implement though (i think, have no clue about Quake 3 engine)

[next_ghost]

Letting marauder zap disable standard turrets (not teslas) for 5 seconds would be much stronger reason not to camp turrets. Humans camping disabled turrets are sitting ducks.

[Henners]

Oh dear god, the BALANCE, THE BALANCE, NOOOOOOO

this is an absurd idea.

If humans camp at stage 2 they are shitty players, and certainly shouldnt be given a further advantage. Cloaking device!?! That would make you goddam unstoppable, as you walk into the middle of the human base with a painsaw and then rip it apart before the aliens know whats happening.

No No No No No No No No

[Neo]

marauder zap disables would be overpowered due to the chaining effect. 3 disabled turrets normally means a dead defence at an entrance.

The human camping problem is purely psychological. As if they work together they can easily take down aliens of any type, it just seems they get mobbed as more advanced players use aliens and have already learned this.

[Stakhanov]

5 seconds is too long , but it could work out with 2 seconds or a little bit less (just less than the marauder zap's refresh rate) so that humans have to think at least when they fortify their base. A defense computer may also prevent this from occuring.

[next_ghost]

5 seconds is too long , but it could work out with 2 seconds or a little bit less (just less than the marauder zap's refresh rate) so that humans have to think at least when they fortify their base. A defense computer may also prevent this from occuring.

Another possibility is 1 second shutdown for each 10hp damage dealt to the turret. That would mean (as of SVN revision 802, not now):
1 turret: 8 seconds shutdown
2 turrets: 6 seconds, 2 seconds
3 turrets: 4 seconds, 2.7 seconds, 1.3 seconds

Marauder zap lasts for a second and needs another 1.5 seconds to recharge. So you won't be able to keep the last turret shut down but it will be enough to destroy 3 unsupported turrets without taking much damage.

marauder zap disables would be overpowered due to the chaining effect. 3 disabled turrets normally means a dead defence at an entrance.

Any entrance defenses are dead by design. This would also prove it to noob builders who still think that turrets guarding base entrances far away from the real base are useful.

Also remember that in next Tremulous release, there will be marauder zap fix that caps total marauder zap damage to 80hp. In 1.1.0, marauder chaining to 3 targets can deal up to 120hp total damage. That will weaken marauder zap considerably against turrets.

[0z]

Cloaking device!?! That would make you goddam unstoppable, as you walk into the middle of the human base with a painsaw and then rip it apart before the aliens know whats happening.
/quote]

Umm.. So? If you destroy human base with cloak or without it, it doesn't matter as alien team will win anyway then.

[Neo]

He wasn't referring to killing turrets, just disabling them for 30seconds when zapped. Would make any defence useless, wherever it was placed, especially with the zap as I said above. Any melee alien can kill lots of turrets in that time.

Would be like giving humans an AoE gun that disable tubes and hives, same thing but 'balanced' because humans are far less mobile than marauders.

[next_ghost]

He wasn't referring to killing turrets, just disabling them for 30seconds when zapped. Would make any defence useless, wherever it was placed, especially with the zap as I said above. Any melee alien can kill lots of turrets in that time.

Would be like giving humans an AoE gun that disable tubes and hives, same thing but 'balanced' because humans are far less mobile than marauders.

Who said to disable turrets by zap for 30 seconds? If you haven't noticed yet, humans don't even have to get close to alien defenses to take them down even in stage1 while aliens can't fight cluster of 3+ turrets until they get adv goon or tyrant.

It's the "I'm safe inside here" thinking that keeps humans behind turrets.

[Neo]

There's a simple solution to that alien defence problem, don't put them where people can see them from a distance.

[black adder9]

ok but this wuld make it alot easyer for the humans couse they can sneak up the base whit it why dont u o u cant wear any heavy machinery whit this or armor(only helm)

[Lava Croft]

SATGNU already has a somewhat harsh solution for hardcore campers.

[next_ghost]

There's a simple solution to that alien defence problem, don't put them where people can see them from a distance.

I can't think of a single alien tube/trapper placement that could survive for more than 5 seconds without player support against a single skilled human. On the other hand, I can think of several human turret placements on each 1.1.0 basic map that could hold on their own for half a minute or more unless at least 3 goons were trying to destroy it and completely invincible with a little player support up to coordinated adv goon/tyrant attack.

[Coca-Cola]

I think this is a great idea, but it should only be allowed for light armors, also instead of 95% transparency 24/7, when they fire a weapon, you might wanna make it 50% for the time they fire, that way they dont get in a dark corner and mow you down before they find you.

[Vector_Matt]

The cloaking sounds like it might be balanced and could reduce the camping problem (since you could posibly get out when aliens are camping you) but ultimatley there will still be some people who don't use it since it won't cloak armor (BTW, how does it cloak the gun but not the armor?).

It sounds very good though, perhaps in a mod or something.


And as for the disabling turrets, humans NEED their base in order to survive, cripling it with the zap-disable would make aliens win much more often (right now it's about 50/50).

[Lava Croft]

If you run a proper server with a proper amount of players, lets say, 8 to 14 players, camping Humans aren't that big of a problem. Changing Tremulous just because people want to play with >24 players if kind of dumb. Lower your maxclients and the Tremulous games should be a lote more fun, we experienced it on SATGNU, and are happy with our 12 maxclients.

[Rekov]

I dont think it would solve the camping problem, because humans are still base dependant. They need the base for ammo, health, and upgrades. In s2 the jetpack lets them get out of the base on some of the higher maps, but not on some.

[Rippy]

Sorry for bumping, I just found this thread and had to comment.

That mara zap would be very, very OP. Seriously, you'd make it so that a lone adv mara can take out a 3 turret defense by standing beside it and right-clicking. A decent player could maneuver himself to be only in range of 3 turrets at a time, and take out an entire base that way.

Anyway, I figured another useful item would be an s3 pack called the Medipack. Costs maybe 300 creds but allows the wearer to regenerate health at around 4 or 5 hp per second. It kicks in automatically, I dunno, 3 or 4 seconds after receiving damage, but also makes quite a bit of noise while active, making you easier to find. It'd help hummies survive outside the base without having to turn around the minute they get injured.

[Captain Ventris]

Sorry for bumping, I just found this thread and had to comment.

That mara zap would be very, very OP. Seriously, you'd make it so that a lone adv mara can take out a 3 turret defense by standing beside it and right-clicking. A decent player could maneuver himself to be only in range of 3 turrets at a time, and take out an entire base that way.

Anyway, I figured another useful item would be an s3 pack called the Medipack. Costs maybe 300 creds but allows the wearer to regenerate health at around 4 or 5 hp per second. It kicks in automatically, I dunno, 3 or 4 seconds after receiving damage, but also makes quite a bit of noise while active, making you easier to find. It'd help hummies survive outside the base without having to turn around the minute they get injured.

..............or you could use the medkit.

[Seafoideach]

In stage 2, no. Pretty definately no. Humans allready have a bit of an advantage at s2, throwing something like this in then could easily make things too unbalanced. In stage three, maybe.

At least you appear to have thought this out a bit. And used decent capitalisation. And didn't have it as one huge block of text.



Captain Ventris, the problem with just using a medkit is that you have only one. I'm probably wrong, but I think the usually use is that you go out skirmishing, take enough damage to warrant using the medkit, (use the medkit) then head back to the base to resupply. A 'medipack' would mean you could get healed in the field without using up your one-use medikit.

Please don't assume that I am for or against a medipack type thing.

[Kadreal]

It's unfortunatly smart of humans to hide behind turrets. If they all do it, it basicly guarentees that aliens won't get any kills, certainly not enough for a dragoon. Just wait it out behind turrets getting the occasional kill until you get stage 2. Then grab your helmet and armour and waste that dretchs that now do almost nothing to you.

Luckly right now in public games there are always the humans that venture out and feed the aliens abit. I wonder how this will work out for any clan matches honestly...

[next_ghost]

Sorry for bumping, I just found this thread and had to comment.

That mara zap would be very, very OP. Seriously, you'd make it so that a lone adv mara can take out a 3 turret defense by standing beside it and right-clicking. A decent player could maneuver himself to be only in range of 3 turrets at a time, and take out an entire base that way.

Bear in mind that as of 1.1.0, the Adv Marauder zap deals total of 120hp damage to 3 targets. The next vanilla release or any current TJW build caps the total damage to 80hp. That means 1/3 damage less compared to current situation.

Yes, you could keep 3 turrets off but zap should not disable teslas (they use high voltage so they should have discharge protection) and don't forget that there will most likely be some defenders inside the base who won't let some bugs zap their turrets so easily. The only real defense that works for aliens has at least 6 legs and bites. Even naked human with rifle is enough to enter and kill undefended alien base while just a bunch of stage1 turrets can keep even tyrant out of the base for some time.

If you think that it's right that enough turrets in base can keep terrible human team alive for 20 minutes until aliens get stage3, I don't share your opinion. Especially when teams are really equal in terms of player skill.

[kevlarman]

It's unfortunatly smart of humans to hide behind turrets. If they all do it, it basicly guarentees that aliens won't get any kills, certainly not enough for a dragoon. Just wait it out behind turrets getting the occasional kill until you get stage 2. Then grab your helmet and armour and waste that dretchs that now do almost nothing to you.

Luckly right now in public games there are always the humans that venture out and feed the aliens abit. I wonder how this will work out for any clan matches honestly...

um, no it's not. if people are that cooperative and have the slightest clue how to aim they would be smart to go out and get a kill or 2 each, then buy armor and weapons (at least one saw in the group) and obliterate the alien base.

[PHREAK]

Why do you people speak of stages in terms of time?
YOU DO NOT STAGE UP WITH TIME BUT WITH KILLS!

Also, hummies sitting behind turrets for 20 minutes only ensures a handful of maras and goons due to the free evo/cred not feeding causes.

All thing equal, S1 H < S1 A

[Juno]

surely a cloaking device would encourage noobs to leave the base and then still get eaten



or get close to a dretch get scared and shoot, reveal themsleves and then die?

[David]

maby you could have some kind of smoke grenade like thing, that screws alien radar, and makes smoke so thay cant see.

would have to be carefull it didnt always allow humans to escape from aliens,  and so probably wouldnt work, but might be intresting.

[FX-Arch]

surely a cloaking device would encourage noobs to leave the base and then still get eaten



or get close to a dretch get scared and shoot, reveal themsleves and then die?

At least they leave the base    And if they die then the aliens go s3 and kill the humans ^^.

[Stof]

Cloakcing device is useless for that. Noobs do NOT have 400 credits to throw at a clocking device let alone two. At best you'll eat the cloacked noob once outside and after that, he'll have to camp again until he gets the credits to buy another.

[Commoner]

I think cloaking device would be fine if it had to be worn on the armor slot like the battlesuit. So if you used the cloaking device you wouldn't be able to have lightarmor, helmet, battery back, nor jetpack. I doubt anybody could say it was overpowered then. Just my thoughts.