Aha! A Problem with marked deconstruction!

[Conzul]

I have noticed, during a rare stint as granger the other day, that there is a basic flaw with deconstruction for aliens, especially of forward bases.
Suppose you have a forward base with an  and two  's - you mark all of them for deconstruction (as demanded by the ebb and flow of the match). However! Once you begin to use those bp's, the  may go down first and the two marked  's instantly self destruct, thus losing their build-points. This should be fixed. They were marked, after all. Why should they destruct? Human  's don't die the moment the  goes down!
    So...if buildables that are marked lose their  due to reconstruction, they should not explode and forfeit their build-points.

If you want to see a quick example of this, log into a fresh tremor default map. Now mark the  and  that are by the door opposite the big window. Now, go move the  to beneath the steps or wherever. The two marked buildables should destruct.

This doesn't happen to humans.
It shouldn't happen to aliens!

[tskuzzy]

That feature is kinda handy when you want to move a base though. Just mark all the eggs+OM and everything else will auto-decon

[SlackerLinux]

i think he means instead of going boom and the bp going in bp queue??(does that happen haven't really checked?) they get deconstructed like a granger deconning them and the bp come back instantly.

or i could be completely wrong about what your asking for?

[mooseberry]

I think that's what he's saying, it's annoying when the acid tubes or w/e get blowed up when the egg goes down and you have to wait minutes for it all to get back.

[Conzul]

I think that's what he's saying, it's annoying when the acid tubes or w/e get blowed up when the egg goes down and you have to wait minutes for it all to get back.

This, is exactly what I'm saying. I hope it gets fixed, because it is unfair...

[Manbearpig@SRM]

You sure you just arent watching the BP pool close enough?  Once a building gets destroyed, it takes a minute or so for its build points to reappear in the BP pool.  Marked Decon is a feature that has been present in the trem code since time immemorial (as far as i know)  i think all the devs did was turn it on.  We have had mark decon on X ever since it went up.  If what we are using and what they are using is the same thing, we have never had any bugs with it.

I think it makes sense that alien buildables die when there is no "creep" to sustain them.  Alien buildables are organic, and understandably require something from either the OM or Eggs to keep them alive. 

Human buildables are not organic, thus only require power to work instead of requiring power to exist.  This makes sense to me.

[mooseberry]

You sure you just arent watching the BP pool close enough?  Once a building gets destroyed, it takes a minute or so for its build points to reappear in the BP pool.  Marked Decon is a feature that has been present in the trem code since time immemorial (as far as i know)  i think all the devs did was turn it on.  We have had mark decon on X ever since it went up.  If what we are using and what they are using is the same thing, we have never had any bugs with it.

I think it makes sense that alien buildables die when there is no "creep" to sustain them.  Alien buildables are organic, and understandably require something from either the OM or Eggs to keep them alive. 

Human buildables are not organic, thus only require power to work instead of requiring power to exist.  This makes sense to me.

Do you realize he is talking about 1.2.... And that in 1.2 there is a queue... So it takes a long time for your all of your bp to come back. That's part of the code.

[Asvarox]

If we are in that subject, when you move rc to where it can "power" repeaters, they explode damaging buildings and people nearby which is retarded.

Also, this should probably go to the bug tracker

[Liskey]

The BP queue effect happens just as Conzul says, and it is definitely a bug, not a feature.

But there is a workaround (sort of) - if several structures of different types are marked, then priority is given to destroying a marked structure of the kind being built.  In an emergency when there are no unused BPs, there may be no way to build an egg without asploding creep-dependent structures and losing BPs to the queue.  But usually there are enough unused BPs to build a couple of new eggs without destroying any marked eggs.  When you get down to fewer than 10 free BPs, just build out all of the defensive structures before building any more eggs.

Fixing the bug will take some care - dependent structures should die as normal when their creep disappears, but whether the BPs are freed immediately or go on the queue should depend on whether the creep loss was caused by the enemy or by marked deconstruction.   If the enemy has damaged 95% of an egg when it is deconned, they will lose the BP queue benefit of that attack, but such is life.

[Norfenstein]

Also, this should probably go to the bug tracker

[Conzul]

If we are in that subject, when you move rc to where it can "power" repeaters, they explode damaging buildings and people nearby which is retarded.

That happens? That's dumb. (Idk I never play humans)

The BP queue effect happens just as Conzul says, and it is definitely a bug, not a feature.

But there is a workaround (sort of) - if several structures of different types are marked, then priority is given to destroying a marked structure of the kind being built.  In an emergency when there are no unused BPs, there may be no way to build an egg without asploding creep-dependent structures and losing BPs to the queue.  But usually there are enough unused BPs to build a couple of new eggs without destroying any marked eggs.  When you get down to fewer than 10 free BPs, just build out all of the defensive structures before building any more eggs.

Yeah but that's too much for one non-omniscient moderate skilled granger to keep track of.

I think it makes sense that alien buildables die when there is no "creep" to sustain them.

Of course - Unless a granger took the trouble to mark them. It might have had to go out into the line of fire to mark them, then make it's way back to the main base. That is the trade-off.

[Kiwi]

Firstly, Humans ≠ Aliens.  Secondly, how can you comment on whether something is or isn't fair if you haven't played both sides.  Lastly, as long as you mark everything else first, you don't run into this problem.

Regards,
Kiwi

[kevlarman]

Code: [Select]

void G_QueueBuildPoints( gentity_t *self )
{
  gentity_t *killer = NULL;
  gentity_t *powerEntity;

  if( self->killedBy != ENTITYNUM_NONE )
    killer = &g_entities[ self->killedBy ];

  if( killer && killer->client &&
      killer->client->ps.stats[ STAT_TEAM ] == self->buildableTeam )
  {
    // Don't take away build points if killed by a teammate
    // deconstructing an egg/overmind (MOD_NOCREEP)
    return;
  }


[Conzul]

Firstly, Humans ≠ Aliens.  Secondly, how can you comment on whether something is or isn't fair if you haven't played both sides.  Lastly, as long as you mark everything else first, you don't run into this problem.

Regards,
Kiwi

Heh, not to rant, but this is a sophistry that I have encountered many times around here. Humans and aliens are very different(they play differently, they build differently, they win differently), but they are definitely equal, otherwise the game would be unplayable due to imbalance. The game is relatively balanced, which means the teams are "equal".
I have played as humans in 1.2, enough to know that I could do it with my eyes closed and quickly got bored. The new 1v1 inequality challenges me as an alien, so I play them from now on.
And lastly, no, structures in my experience do not always go down in the order they were marked. They go down in the order that bp's are needed.
   Nothing personal, but you were wrong on almost all levels there.

@kevlarman even if that code is already implemented (I assume it is) then it is what programmers call a "klooge".
Construction and deconstruction has always been the role of the builder class of both sides. For aliens, dragging the combat classes into deconstruction chores (a granger sure as hell won't kill structs well) is a highly inelegant patch for something that simply needs to be fixed.

[kevlarman]

ent->killedBy is set only for destructions (deconstructions count) removing the creep from under a structure. the code checks if the person responsible is on the same team as the structure, and returns build points instantly if they are.

[Liskey]

Also, this should probably go to the bug tracker

Done.

[Conzul]

ent->killedBy is set only for destructions (deconstructions count) removing the creep from under a structure. the code checks if the person responsible is on the same team as the structure, and returns build points instantly if they are.

So...you're saying that if an egg/om is dc'd/destroyed by any alien, it's dependent structures which explode do not forfeit their build points? I assume this is what you are saying. However I have seen cases where this did not work, and I had to wait for the points to trickle back into the que. So in that case is just a bug or something, not poor/insufficient writing as I had hypothesized. ...