200 Hours GPP 1.2

[Conzul]

Was concerned that pulse rifle was overpowered, but considering that aliens seem to win more or as often as humans, I thought why change it? I do have some other ideas.


As a combat class spawning into a granger, I might have no idea what needs building. We might just have reached stage 2 and I go granger to make a booster but one has already been made! I think (therefore) that in the build list there should be a number by each structure depicting exactly how many of that structure have been built. That would be an immense help when the existing granger leaves his post and one of the militant aliens has to step in. We've been fighting, how do we know what needs building? I always find that I'm building a redundant booster once s2 pops in, cus the existing granger put it in some dumb shadow/corner and didn't announce it. A struct counter would help, right where a just in builder can see it (humans too? idk)

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I can't help but feel that an Adv.Goon is not that much better than a standard one, because they both seem to chomp at the same speed. I liked how in 1.1 the adv.goon had a fast swipe, it made the 4-evo alien worth it rather than going with the cheaper standard goon. The fact that the barb hurts the goon means that's out in close quarters and against humans. The adv.goon can't headkill an undamaged helmet in one chomp, which humans always have by the time you get to s2. It can't defend itself better than an s1 goon against 2 enemies, in fact the s1 has the advantage of smaller size, despite those extra 50hp that (vs. s2 humans) melt off faster than Grant took Richmond. I would like to suggest that the chomp speed for the Adv.Goon be increased by a little. This is the thing that I miss most from 1.1  Even if you reduce the damage that every chomp does, could you please make it chomp faster. That would be wonderful, mkay?

[mooseberry]

The adv.goon can't headkill an undamaged helmet in one chomp, which humans always have by the time you get to s2. I

If the goon could do that, it would be imensly unfair.

Also I've found the barb to be very deadly, and annoying to me when I play as a human.

[Conzul]

The adv.goon can't headkill an undamaged helmet in one chomp, which humans always have by the time you get to s2. I

If the goon could do that, it would be imensly unfair.

Also I've found the barb to be very deadly, and annoying to me when I play as a human.

The barb is good, but only at medium > long range.

Why would a headkill be unfair? The dretch can't do it anymore. The regular Dragoon can do it, but only on un-helmeted targets. As an extension, why shouldn't the Adv.Goon be able to? My point is rather, since it chomps so slowly now, why can't those chomps do a one hit headkill? I'm not opting to have it chomp faster and do headkills. I would prefer it to take two headhits to kill, but bite faster like in 1.1. But if it's kept as slow as it is, I think it should be able to headkill in one bite, and I would like to know if anyone else feels likewise....

Edit: I refer above to the adv.goon headkilling a helmet, not just any human, in general.

[Asvarox]

Even rants cant "headkill" helm+larm.

That's pretty much the point of this set.

[Meisseli]

Was concerned that pulse rifle was overpowered, but considering that aliens seem to win more or as often as humans, I thought why change it? I do have some other ideas.


As a combat class spawning into a granger, I might have no idea what needs building. We might just have reached stage 2 and I go granger to make a booster but one has already been made! I think (therefore) that in the build list there should be a number by each structure depicting exactly how many of that structure have been built. That would be an immense help when the existing granger leaves his post and one of the militant aliens has to step in. We've been fighting, how do we know what needs building? I always find that I'm building a redundant booster once s2 pops in, cus the existing granger put it in some dumb shadow/corner and didn't announce it. A struct counter would help, right where a just in builder can see it (humans too? idk)

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I can't help but feel that an Adv.Goon is not that much better than a standard one, because they both seem to chomp at the same speed. I liked how in 1.1 the adv.goon had a fast swipe, it made the 4-evo alien worth it rather than going with the cheaper standard goon. The fact that the barb hurts the goon means that's out in close quarters and against humans. The adv.goon can't headkill an undamaged helmet in one chomp, which humans always have by the time you get to s2. It can't defend itself better than an s1 goon against 2 enemies, in fact the s1 has the advantage of smaller size, despite those extra 50hp that (vs. s2 humans) melt off faster than Grant took Richmond. I would like to suggest that the chomp speed for the Adv.Goon be increased by a little. This is the thing that I miss most from 1.1  Even if you reduce the damage that every chomp does, could you please make it chomp faster. That would be wonderful, mkay?

I've had the same idea of having a building list, though with the teamoverlay now I have my doubts if it would take up too much space from your screen.

Your idea of one-chomp adv. dragoons is simply too powerful. Humans would be massacred at s2.

[Conzul]

Was concerned that pulse rifle was overpowered, but considering that aliens seem to win more or as often as humans, I thought why change it? I do have some other ideas.


As a combat class spawning into a granger, I might have no idea what needs building. We might just have reached stage 2 and I go granger to make a booster but one has already been made! I think (therefore) that in the build list there should be a number by each structure depicting exactly how many of that structure have been built. That would be an immense help when the existing granger leaves his post and one of the militant aliens has to step in. We've been fighting, how do we know what needs building? I always find that I'm building a redundant booster once s2 pops in, cus the existing granger put it in some dumb shadow/corner and didn't announce it. A struct counter would help, right where a just in builder can see it (humans too? idk)

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I can't help but feel that an Adv.Goon is not that much better than a standard one, because they both seem to chomp at the same speed. I liked how in 1.1 the adv.goon had a fast swipe, it made the 4-evo alien worth it rather than going with the cheaper standard goon. The fact that the barb hurts the goon means that's out in close quarters and against humans. The adv.goon can't headkill an undamaged helmet in one chomp, which humans always have by the time you get to s2. It can't defend itself better than an s1 goon against 2 enemies, in fact the s1 has the advantage of smaller size, despite those extra 50hp that (vs. s2 humans) melt off faster than Grant took Richmond. I would like to suggest that the chomp speed for the Adv.Goon be increased by a little. This is the thing that I miss most from 1.1  Even if you reduce the damage that every chomp does, could you please make it chomp faster. That would be wonderful, mkay?

I've had the same idea of having a building list, though with the teamoverlay now I have my doubts if it would take up too much space from your screen.

Your idea of one-chomp adv. dragoons is simply too powerful. Humans would be massacred at s2.

No it would be on the buildable select screen where you click an item to build. There, to the right of each clickable, would be a number showing how many there are already. It wouldn't sit on the active hud, though for a granger even that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

About chomp, yeah, I suppose, but then I think it should chomp just a little faster. See my comment below.

Even rants cant "headkill" helm+larm.

If you look at values, that is pretty badly messed up. larm+hemlet costs 70+90 creds for a total of 160 creds. A Tyrant costs (if you think of an evo as 100-150 creds) about 500+evos, not to mention that it's a whole stage above the armor combo. If you have a tyrant vs. several s2 humans, it dies pretty quickly. Given the molasses-like lethargy of its 1.2 swipe speed, it should be able to "headkill" any human wearing a helmet. The rant is an s3 weapon that now can't (sometimes) stand against a single s2 human with a modicum of skill. ... ... But I think rant isn't that bad, but adv goon got a bounding box increase or something. (just checked the changes page said decrease but that could be outdated) I don't even seriously think it should headkill helmets in one (I said so but was wrong) but rather increase chomp speed and even decrease chomp damage as necessary.

[Meisseli]

No it would be on the buildable select screen where you click an item to build. There, to the right of each clickable, would be a number showing how many there are already. It wouldn't sit on the active hud, though for a granger even that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Still not good, really many players use binds to build buildables since the select screen simply takes too much time and makes you a target standing still.

If you look at values, that is pretty badly messed up. larm+hemlet costs 70+90 creds for a total of 160 creds. A Tyrant costs (if you think of an evo as 100-150 creds) about 500+evos, not to mention that it's a whole stage above the armor combo. If you have a tyrant vs. several s2 humans, it dies pretty quickly. Given the molasses-like lethargy of its 1.2 swipe speed, it should be able to "headkill" any human wearing a helmet. The rant is an s3 weapon that now can't (sometimes) stand against a single s2 human with a modicum of skill. ... ... But I think rant isn't that bad, but adv goon got a bounding box increase or something. (just checked the changes page said decrease but that could be outdated) I don't even seriously think it should headkill helmets in one (I said so but was wrong) but rather increase chomp speed and even decrease chomp damage as necessary.

2 chomps isn't that hard to make... though I do think the new tyrant is too bad to use most of the time. Tyrant should get the +50 hp back IMO.

[Conzul]

No it would be on the buildable select screen where you click an item to build. There, to the right of each clickable, would be a number showing how many there are already. It wouldn't sit on the active hud, though for a granger even that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Still not good, really many players use binds to build buildables since the select screen simply takes too much time and makes you a target standing still.

2 chomps isn't that hard to make... though I do think the new tyrant is too bad to use most of the time. Tyrant should get the +50 hp back IMO.

Yeah well the "most" players you are referring to are the ones who have played Tremulous and are on the ball enough not to need a counter because they have sufficient command of the battlefield. The counter would primarily benefit newcomers who would use the click menu (I use the click menu, I am hardly a newcomer though) and who would benefit from knowing what's already up. Tremulous is notoriously low on newcomer forgiveness, every measure helps.
   About the tyrant, yeah, those 50hp would be a fitting alternative IMO. Also, many players have high ping or other lag, which can make 2 hits hard to land. Sure, it's their problem, but the highest class of alien should offer a bit more forgiveness than the current GPP tyrant does.

[UniqPhoeniX]

A minimap would be a good place for info on what buildings exist. And IMO, using the build menu is a huge waste of time and often a suicide.

[Conzul]

Well of course but I was thinking of something easier that might get implemented sooner than a minimap could be integrated.

[WiKi]

isnt that the overpowered trample and pounce are for?

[Conzul]

Personally I've found that trample is very buggy, and if you have even medium lag/fps problems then the damage does not get applied. I never use trample because I have medium lag. There's nothing like trampling into three armored humans and having them go "Ow! Ow! Ungh!" click-click BOOM You are 2nd in que, 3 eggs remaining. Trample and pounce both seem OP vs 1-2 humans I know. BTW trample is crap with the new mapmaking tendencies. Narrow corridors with small objects that you catch up on. Now that I think of it, I can't remember the last time that I used trample for anything other than getting from point A to point B....

[Saliva]

Conzul, you should try using trample and pounce more because those are the main attacks now for goons and tyrant. It can be hard to kill humans with just slashing because they can dodge out of your slash range in addition to slash range being reduced compared to 1.1. Slashing is still useful when you have closed the distance to the human using your special attack first so both are still useful.

I'm not sure why you expect to be able to kill several s2 humans with one alien. The game has been designed to have equal amount of players on each team. If you can't do it alone try to do some teamwork.

Some kind of building list would be nice. You could put it directly to builder hud or activate it by pressing a button.

[Asvarox]

What about replacing team overlay with minimap (not necessary "map minimap") that would display teammates, buildings and creep/enegry zones nearby?

[khalsa]

Needs someone to make it (or complete it): http://patches.mercenariesguild.net/index.php?do=details&task_id=204

[Plague Bringer]

The problem is, if we use minimaps we'll probably have to go the NS route and have maps (official, at least) without overlapping levels (since I doubt the engine would support multi-level minimaps, and if it did, I doubt that anyone would be willing to do the code for it), and overlapping levels add a lot of depth to Trem maps.

[Conzul]

I'm not sure why you expect to be able to kill several s2 humans with one alien. The game has been designed to have equal amount of players on each team. If you can't do it alone try to do some teamwork.

Are we to believe that stages are a progression of power or a progression of features? Because if the latter is true then you are right....
Not to be a jerk but plz use the quote button or cut and paste, because I said an S3 alien or tyrant, not one alien.(rather ambiguous) And by several I meant up to 2. Also while the game may put players on teams equally, it cannot keep them that way. Usually by the 30:00 min mark one team has a deficiency of a few players. If that team wins, it's because the remainder is Pro. I'm wondering, how many aliens do you think one human should be able to kill? Currently with lasgun, pulserifle and luci, one human can kill quite a few aliens, or garner many credits from support kills ( a luxury rarely afforded to aliens simply by gameplay mechanics).


On the other end, It would be infinitely funny if I found out that I had been crusading for alien empowerment only to realize that it was my lag that made me think they sucked. I wonder what I would think if I ever upgraded my connexion
I use teamwork and encourage others to do so as often as possible. But every match's team is an assortment of 2-parts Pro's, 3-parts laggers or talkers, and 4-parts newbs. Oh and one part ppl who ragequit to spectator.

I didn't mention minimap ideas cus I had hoped that it would get integrated into a human buildable. Or, have a minimap, and a buildable that lets humans see where their teammates are and aliens that their teammates have spotted.

[Saliva]

One alien is any one alien and tyrant can be that one alien.

Maybe you should be more clear next time because several can be more than 1-2. Against 1-2 s2 humans you should win with high probability if you use charge even if you have medium lag. Stages are progression of both power and features. People randomly disconnecting affects the current game balance but obviously you can't balance that. How many aliens one human is able to kill depends on the situation so i can't really answer that.

[Asvarox]

The problem is, if we use minimaps we'll probably have to go the NS route and have maps (official, at least) without overlapping levels (since I doubt the engine would support multi-level minimaps, and if it did, I doubt that anyone would be willing to do the code for it), and overlapping levels add a lot of depth to Trem maps.

Well we don't have to have a map in the minimap. We could just have black square/circle with icons showing where what is. There's also a way to generate the map:

It's not really clear, but i guess it'd be fairly easy to have few minimap files for each "level" and then displaying one depending on where the player is standing (if his y is between 0 and 100, display file x-level0, if between 101 and 300, x-level1 and so on), But I don't think that's necessary anyway.

As for how many aliens human can kill and vice versa - luci can whore dozens of dretches, and tyrant can whore dozens of naked (and "humans are worth more"). Maybe 2 shotguns are be able to kill dragoon easily, but I doubt 1 shotgun would stand a chance against 2 goons too.

[Meisseli]

I'm not sure why you expect to be able to kill several s2 humans with one alien. The game has been designed to have equal amount of players on each team. If you can't do it alone try to do some teamwork.

Are we to believe that stages are a progression of power or a progression of features? Because if the latter is true then you are right....
Not to be a jerk but plz use the quote button or cut and paste, because I said an S3 alien or tyrant, not one alien.(rather ambiguous) And by several I meant up to 2. Also while the game may put players on teams equally, it cannot keep them that way. Usually by the 30:00 min mark one team has a deficiency of a few players. If that team wins, it's because the remainder is Pro. I'm wondering, how many aliens do you think one human should be able to kill? Currently with lasgun, pulserifle and luci, one human can kill quite a few aliens, or garner many credits from support kills ( a luxury rarely afforded to aliens simply by gameplay mechanics).


On the other end, It would be infinitely funny if I found out that I had been crusading for alien empowerment only to realize that it was my lag that made me think they sucked. I wonder what I would think if I ever upgraded my connexion
I use teamwork and encourage others to do so as often as possible. But every match's team is an assortment of 2-parts Pro's, 3-parts laggers or talkers, and 4-parts newbs. Oh and one part ppl who ragequit to spectator.

I didn't mention minimap ideas cus I had hoped that it would get integrated into a human buildable. Or, have a minimap, and a buildable that lets humans see where their teammates are and aliens that their teammates have spotted.

Of course humans are able to kill more aliens due to their ranged weapons, and that's not going to change due to the nature of the game. What you're asking for is unnecessary, aliens don't need as much kills to beat the human team. I feel only dretch and tyrant are in a lack of power compared to the human team's arsenal.

[Conzul]

Of course humans are able to kill more aliens due to their ranged weapons, and that's not going to change due to the nature of the game. What you're asking for is unnecessary, aliens don't need as much kills to beat the human team. I feel only dretch and tyrant are in a lack of power compared to the human team's arsenal.

On the other end, It would be infinitely funny if I found out that I had been crusading for alien empowerment only to realize that it was my lag that made me think they sucked. I wonder what I would think if I ever upgraded my connexion

....Of course I could be wrong. I think that the Tyrant is overpowered offensively and underpowered defensively. Humans have a tank unit, the Battlesuit. The aliens do not have a tank anymore. I wish they did. I wish the tyrant could get it's 50HP back. I played some more (since I lag so much I usually only play with dretch.) and the dretch is fine, I'm sorry I ever said anything about it.

[Plague Bringer]

The problem is, if we use minimaps we'll probably have to go the NS route and have maps (official, at least) without overlapping levels (since I doubt the engine would support multi-level minimaps, and if it did, I doubt that anyone would be willing to do the code for it), and overlapping levels add a lot of depth to Trem maps.

Well we don't have to have a map in the minimap. We could just have black square/circle with icons showing where what is. There's also a way to generate the map:

It's not really clear, but i guess it'd be fairly easy to have few minimap files for each "level" and then displaying one depending on where the player is standing (if his y is between 0 and 100, display file x-level0, if between 101 and 300, x-level1 and so on), But I don't think that's necessary anyway.

As for how many aliens human can kill and vice versa - luci can whore dozens of dretches, and tyrant can whore dozens of naked (and "humans are worth more"). Maybe 2 shotguns are be able to kill dragoon easily, but I doubt 1 shotgun would stand a chance against 2 goons too.

I wish this were Youtube so I could thumbs up that post.

[David]

In CS the dots on the mini-map become a T or upside down T when they are above/below you, which works well.

It could also be cool for the mapper to be able to specify which plane the mini-map is on, so for very vertical maps the mini-map could be a side-on view of the map instead of top-down.

[Sollus]

In CS the dots on the mini-map become a T or upside down T when they are above/below you, which works well.

Heh, that reminds me a little of asking to insert crosshairs which "tilt" depending on which wall angle Aliens are crawling on... AvP style.

[Silo]

Was concerned that pulse rifle was overpowered, but considering that aliens seem to win more or as often as humans, I thought why change it? I do have some other ideas.


As a combat class spawning into a granger, I might have no idea what needs building. We might just have reached stage 2 and I go granger to make a booster but one has already been made! I think (therefore) that in the build list there should be a number by each structure depicting exactly how many of that structure have been built. That would be an immense help when the existing granger leaves his post and one of the militant aliens has to step in. We've been fighting, how do we know what needs building? I always find that I'm building a redundant booster once s2 pops in, cus the existing granger put it in some dumb shadow/corner and didn't announce it. A struct counter would help, right where a just in builder can see it (humans too? idk)

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*******

I can't help but feel that an Adv.Goon is not that much better than a standard one, because they both seem to chomp at the same speed. I liked how in 1.1 the adv.goon had a fast swipe, it made the 4-evo alien worth it rather than going with the cheaper standard goon. The fact that the barb hurts the goon means that's out in close quarters and against humans. The adv.goon can't headkill an undamaged helmet in one chomp, which humans always have by the time you get to s2. It can't defend itself better than an s1 goon against 2 enemies, in fact the s1 has the advantage of smaller size, despite those extra 50hp that (vs. s2 humans) melt off faster than Grant took Richmond. I would like to suggest that the chomp speed for the Adv.Goon be increased by a little. This is the thing that I miss most from 1.1  Even if you reduce the damage that every chomp does, could you please make it chomp faster. That would be wonderful, mkay?

Seeing as though I don't play the 1.2 gpp release. I can't comment the second.

But, the amount of buildings being shown would be very helpful.
Could use it efficiently: remove newbie builds that weren't noticed, know why bp is being stolen(-.-) and etc.

In AssaultCube(I'm sure other games as well), press Alt, and a map will lay ontop of the screen, transparently. (Overlay? :p).
Even if the build info was in the corner of the map. It would still be useful and could even show where the builds are being used.

Edit:

+1

[_Equilibrium_]

http://stats.tremulous.net/tremstats/us1/index.php

The general data overview (chart below the Running Map) for this phase shows alien and human wins to be damn near identical, which is an outstanding feat in itself. Lobbying for aliens to get better without adding anything for humans is just ridiculous at this point. If you want to play an alien bias version, 1.1 is already out there.

[Conzul]

http://stats.tremulous.net/tremstats/us1/index.php

The general data overview (chart below the Running Map) for this phase shows alien and human wins to be damn near identical, which is an outstanding feat in itself. Lobbying for aliens to get better without adding anything for humans is just ridiculous at this point.

I have had many suggestions for human additions and improvements ( flash-grenades, radar stations, adv. rifle) they all got a negative reception. My suggestion about the dragoon does not make the aliens better, it keeps them the same by REDUCING chomp damage and simply having it chomp a little faster. Nothing about that makes the aliens better (maybe more Noob friendly). WTF?

[_Equilibrium_]

I believe the devs said they will not be making any new weapons, classes or buildables, just updating everything for balance and making new weapon models. So your human suggestions would not get implemented for 1.2 even if there was positive feedback on it. And while your alien suggestion (less damage but faster chomp) is feasible, you can not say it would keep aliens "the same" without a good amount of test play. It has a very good chance of making the aliens weaker OR stronger as well.

[Conzul]

I believe the devs said they will not be making any new weapons, classes or buildables, just updating everything for balance and making new weapon models. So your human suggestions would not get implemented for 1.2 even if there was positive feedback on it. And while your alien suggestion (less damage but faster chomp) is feasible, you can not say it would keep aliens "the same" without a good amount of test play. It has a very good chance of making the aliens weaker OR stronger as well.

Your ability to state the obvious is only outdone by your face. Of course it would need to be playtested. Also, I realize that matters of individual preference are nearly meaningless, I posted to see if anyone else felt similarly, which would have boosted the suggestion from "preference" status to "group preference". W/E

Oh and what's your bibliography for what-you-said-the-devs-said ?

[Plague Bringer]

Oh and what's your bibliography for what-you-said-the-devs-said ?

Can't be arsed to find a quote but I attest.